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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21

    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:37 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 18 Fyykiw10
    New batch of supplies delivered to Mariupol. Also news that water supply has been restored in all districts of the city.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:38 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:@Ark

    Ballistic missiles and MLRs systems are two DIFFERENT THINGS, this entire rant of yours was completely pointless dude.

    I was comment on the post about MLRs not BML systems.

    Geez before you get triggered to do some defensive post think first

    But m142/m270 contains both, MLRS and ballistic missile

    That's what I'm referring to

    Why don't the army go for 500km ATACMS with 2 rockets per vehicle

    And let m270 and m142 carry 12 - 220mm rockets?

    Because as you said, they integrated capacity to one vehicle

    But I argue its not good to unite the missions of these vehicles

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:40 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:I have blown bridges.

    Yeh right Herr Goebels Laughing

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:42 pm

    Mir wrote:
    Hole wrote:
    Roughly 1km

    Unlike the NATzo high precision weapons that normally cause a lot of "collateral damage" - the Russian one's are HIGH PRECISION!

    A few month ago Israhell bombed containers with food in a syrian harbor. Reaction from the west: (the sound of crickets)
    Russia destroys weapons:  angry angry angry angry grain!  angry angry starving people in Africa!  angry angry angry

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:42 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 18 Atacms10

    This is what I mean, m270 is a little better with expanded capacity , 12 rockets and 2 missiles

    But M142 sucks , it has better mobility , but in trying to get 2 things done, it sacrificed carrying capacity of ATACMS and MLRS

    but both Iskander and Bm27 have wheeled chassis

    While M270 is tracked

    It's different philosophy, but I argue that having pods might be good for reload time, either way you want to get out once you fire salvo

    And as for combining systems to one , I think it's unnecessary

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:49 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:


    But I argue its not good to unite the missions of these vehicles

    No problem if you only shoot at wedding parties and funerals. You can change the packages the whole day because no one can shoot back.
    If you want high sustained firepower you go for different systems for different purpoeses. Which doesn´t mean that you can´t use the same basic truck
    for the different systems to lower procurement and maintenance costs. Russia went this path, that´s why it has 3 different rocket launchers + Iskander
    + TOS + ISDM (minelayer).

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:51 pm

    And I argue even if reload take 20 minutes on bm27 versus  5 min in M142

    Bm 27 got 32 missiles out

    In the same time m142 with 5 min reload time got 24 missiles in 4 salvos

    While Bm27 did it in 2

    So Pods have their place, but it's to simplistic to say one thing is better than the other

    Efficiency is important, but there are many factors which are important such as mobility, coverage of area , reload time, durability of chassis, suspension, powerplant

    All those things factor in

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:10 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:@Ark

    Ballistic missiles and MLRs systems are two DIFFERENT THINGS, this entire rant of yours was completely pointless dude.

    I was comment on the post about MLRs not BML systems.

    Geez before you get triggered to do some defensive post think first

    But m142/m270 contains both, MLRS and ballistic missile

    That's what I'm referring to

    Why don't the army go for 500km ATACMS with 2 rockets per vehicle

    And let m270 and m142 carry 12 - 220mm rockets?

    Because as you said, they integrated capacity to one vehicle

    But I argue its not good to unite the missions of these vehicles

    Himmers doesn't need 12 per salvo it can concentrate all its missiles onto a single point and have a 100 percent hit rate.

    Six is enough, If they want to mount a bigger pod they probably could but the entire point of himmers is to be a highly mobile and accurate system, that can be transported via aircraft.

    US also has a different doctrine then Russia with Ballistic missiles.

    Additionally Himars isn't replacing M270, Himars is just meant to be an enabler working along side the M270

    "We fired now scot away before they can react"

    You cannot reliably do that with track vehicles.

    Not to mention thanks to the pods Himars has a high rate of fire it can fire more missiles in a sustained fight then regular MLRs, so the opening salvo must have less rockets but it will get more out over alll
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    Post  lyle6 Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:16 pm

    limb wrote:
    Thats like saying detachable mags are inferior to internal rifle magazines, which is retarded. Loading rockets individually on an MLRS is like loading rifle rounds one by on into a rifle, rather than putting a detachable mag in. Modular rocket pods for MLRS aren't replacements for reload vehicles. They're there to make reloading faster.
    The first thing any rocketeer would do after a fire mission is to head on to the hide site as fast as they can drive. Once there you can take as much time as you like reloading. Having a faster reload is irrelevant.

    Don't get me wrong, palletization does have some points going for it. But at the end of the day its just added convenience. Like stripper clips for loading magazines - nobody's going to go around boasting its some game changing capability now do they?

    limb wrote:
    The russians already have the Uragan-1M, so they're trying to procure MLRS with modular pods, you're just coping.
    They didn't. They only ever introduced modernized Grad and Smerch systems. Never seen the pods in use on any chassis either.

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Merely proves you don't understand anything about logistics or operational cost.

    The ability to change pods thus able to change armaments and only require one vehicles to use them greatly reduces all the spare parts and such you need when operating various vehicles and makes production a whole gell of a lot easier.

    Clueless fanboys alright, but that's you
    To get the full capability of the modular pod system you have to standardize on the largest possible caliber. And the larger the caliber the more expensive the launcher gets - costs can only sky rocket despite extended commonality.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:24 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    Himmers doesn't need 12 per salvo it can concentrate all its missiles onto a single point and have a 100 percent hit rate.

    except when air defense is present as we saw Pantsir take out an entire salvo in Kherson

    "We fired now scot away before they can react"

    You cannot reliably do that with track vehicles.

    none of Russian MLRS is tracked, if you talk about m270 they could have made a truck version with 12 rockets of M142

    Not to mention thanks to the pods Himars has a high rate of fire it can fire more missiles in a sustained fight then regular MLRs, so the opening salvo must have less rockets but it will get more out over alll

    Uragan goes against SHORADS with effectiveness, one cannot say the same about HIMARS, AD is a factor here, if rockets are intercepted by pantsir or TOR battery then you will be wishing for more rockets per salvo as Ukrainians are  

    In all I would say M142 would be a better system if US could supply 100 or 150 to Ukraine

    Then maybe you could talk about saturating AD , and forcing Russia to change tactic

    It would be preferable to carry 12 to have hope of overwhelming AD

    But 30 is not enough, each vehicle will face a battery , an attack could get through such is the nature of the war, But on economical scale it's not efficient to supply 30 and for Ukrs to run out of ammo by week 2 or 3

    Then we get to another convo, that the weapons aren't to win, but to get Ukrs to fight to the last man

    And seig, if you were in the army then you very well know your men didn't rely on HIMARS, but CAS

    Even though it's present , I doubt the army trains much for it

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    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:36 pm

    Poor S-300's seems 2-3 launchers and apparently 1 command vehicle destroyed. This is from Kherson region.



    But well given Russians typically deploy like 8 launchers and engagement radars which are nowhere to be seen. I assume they managed to escape.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:42 pm

    If true thats highly ironic considering someone just said Himars isn't useful if AD is there
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    Post  caveat emptor Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:44 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:Poor S-300's seems 2-3 launchers and apparently 1 command vehicle destroyed.  This is from Kherson region.



    But well given Russians typically deploy like 8 launchers and engagement radars which are nowhere to be seen. I assume they managed to escape.
    It sucks that Russia can't hit US rexon assets, but such is the nature of this war. Only way to counter this is too move these assets more and cover them with SHORAD systems
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    Post  caveat emptor Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:45 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:If true thats highly ironic considering someone just said Himars isn't useful if AD is there
    This is not right kind of system for shooting down MLRS.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:50 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:If true thats highly ironic considering someone just said Himars isn't useful if AD is there
    This is not right kind of system for shooting down MLRS.

    There should be Pantsirs or something around the 300s Unless someone was incompetent and didn't do their deployment properly
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    Post  Stealthflanker Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:53 pm

    The air defenses can handle maybe tens of incoming rockets but certainly not all. Like say 8 launchers of S-300 only have 32 missiles assuming 48N6 is used. a 30N6 can engage 6 targets simultaneously while 92N6 can as far as i remember 10 targets or maybe 40 targets. But Ukraine can mix the Himars salvo with dummy BM-27 or their own Smerch to saturate and confuse the AD systems.

    Rockets are rather simple shaped object and may not necessarily can be differentiated even from things like NCTR as it lacks JEM/propeller modulation.

    The question is of course how many they managed to get before finally some got through and smashed those launchers and a command mobile post.
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    Post  mnztr Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:57 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:@Ark

    Ballistic missiles and MLRs systems are two DIFFERENT THINGS, this entire rant of yours was completely pointless dude.

    I was comment on the post about MLRs not BML systems.

    Geez before you get triggered to do some defensive post think first

    But m142/m270 contains both, MLRS and ballistic missile

    That's what I'm referring to

    Why don't the army go for 500km ATACMS with 2 rockets per vehicle

    And let m270 and m142 carry 12 - 220mm rockets?

    Because as you said, they integrated capacity to one vehicle

    But I argue its not good to unite the missions of these vehicles

    Yes I agree this is not a good combo, they can only launch one ATACMS at a time. I will say though, that the HIMARs is much lighter and especially compared to Smerch. But..less capable and fewer rounds. Also Iskander is quite a bit more capable then ATACMS, way longer range, manuvering and much larger payload. It plays a different role and is not purely tactical but also a theatre strategic missile for Kaliningrad.

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    Post  Isos Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:12 pm

    Nothing surprising. AD on the front are a juicy target gor MLRS. Russia also destroyed a S-300 with bm-27/30 few months ago.

    You can't intercept all the rockets.

    But that crew is dumb. The vehicles should be 500m from each other and covered with cammo when close to the front where you know enemy has long range rocket systems.
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    Post  Stealthflanker Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:15 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    There should be Pantsirs or something around the 300s Unless someone was incompetent and didn't do their deployment properly

    There should be one or two. Looking at deployment in Belgorod.

    Thing is you cant shoot everything down, and rockets are just cheap.
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    Post  Regular Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:03 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:And I argue even if reload take 20 minutes on bm27 versus  5 min in M142

    Bm 27 got 32 missiles out

    In the same time m142 with 5 min reload time got 24 missiles in 4 salvos

    While Bm27 did it in 2

    So Pods have their place, but it's to simplistic to say one thing is better than the other

    Efficiency is important, but there are many factors which are important such as mobility, coverage of area , reload time, durability of chassis, suspension, powerplant

    All those things factor in

    What’s the difference in real life? 5 or 20 minutes. You shoot, then quickly drive the hell away and meet reloading vehicle. No one will reload in the field. After meeting reload vehicle It’s not that time sensitive from there, there might not be any targets to cover, planing place where to launch and etc.

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    Post  Regular Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:35 pm

    New video from Razvedos that touches VDV and its present and the future. This might be interesting for Arkanghelsk

    He references to this conflict and BMD/Sprut and VDV challenges they encountered in Ukraine.

    VDV: End of an Era

    (Please use auto-translate to language of your liking)

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    Post  Belisarius Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:36 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 18 Img_2033
    The Allied forces have begun the battle for Bakhmutskoye, just southeast of Soledar, just as PMC Wagner advances within 2 km of Artyomovsk (Bakhmut), and an unconfirmed report suggests a very large number of Ukrainian POWs were taken just outside of Seversk.
    https://t.me/Slavyangrad/3509

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    Post  Belisarius Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:40 pm

    ⚡🇷🇺🇺🇦 We have doubts about the claimed Ukrainian success of destroyed S-300 SAM launchers in the #Kherson Oblast⚡

    As can be seen in the video🔺, the systems are in the open field, as if on a platter. We assume that the #Ukrainians fell for presented museum pieces; see the 3 pictures🔺
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 18 Img_2034
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 18 Img_2035
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 18 Img_2036
    https://t.me/Slavyangrad/3529?single

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    Post  Belisarius Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:08 pm

    🇷🇺🇺🇦 A large group of hohols surrendered to Russian forces
    https://t.me/intelslava/33831

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    Post  Isos Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:13 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:And I argue even if reload take 20 minutes on bm27 versus  5 min in M142

    Bm 27 got 32 missiles out

    In the same time m142 with 5 min reload time got 24 missiles in 4 salvos

    While Bm27 did it in 2

    So Pods have their place, but it's to simplistic to say one thing is better than the other

    Efficiency is important, but there are many factors which are important such as mobility, coverage of area , reload time, durability of chassis, suspension, powerplant

    All those things factor in

    What’s the difference in real life? 5 or 20 minutes. You shoot, then quickly drive the hell away and meet reloading vehicle. No one will reload in the field. After meeting reload vehicle It’s not that time sensitive from there, there might not be any targets to cover, planing place where to launch and etc.

    People think it's like in game you push buttons and kill everything and if you get killed you respawn 200m away and do it again.

    Rockets are not illimited in numbers. And finding targets takes time just like damage assesement.

    Reloading can take 1 hour that won't change anything.

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