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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #17

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    owais.usmani


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    Post  owais.usmani Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:36 am

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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:37 am

    Serberus wrote:Don’t think it was mentioned yet on here, looks like the US are going to supply the Luftwaffe with Gray Eagle drones (at least according to a bunch of tg groups)
    They have a range of 400km , 30 hrs of flight time and can carry several hellfire missiles
    https://t.me/intelslava/30588

    Like many western products put into service over the past 30 years this is a wonderful product in the right environment, one with no AD.

    The Grey Eagle has about as much chance of surviving in a rich AD network environment like the Russian's as your average Cessna light aircraft i.e. none.

    All this will do is demonstrate to the military world that US (by definition the very best) drones are no better than Turkey's.

    The US MIC may think this will be a good way of demonstrating their product and picking up replacement and new orders but it could achieve the reverse.

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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:40 am

    owais.usmani wrote:https://twitter.com/peterhubinskyx/status/1532289600634470400

    Keep up, this was all over the thread yesterday.

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    Belisarius


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    Post  Belisarius Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:46 am

    Isos wrote:

    Irbis scans automatically like an aesa radar but is also mechanically moved so that the field of view is more than 180°.

    The field of view is 240°.

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    Belisarius


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    Post  Belisarius Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:48 am

    here's why western/ukraine sources suck:

    https://t.me/DonbassDevushka/9342?single

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    Post  Sujoy Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:51 am

    Ukrainian soldiers looting from Ukrainians.

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    Post  crod Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:08 pm

    That video is played in reverse! They were putting the machine in through the window not out of window.

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    Post  kvs Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:11 pm

    Serberus wrote:Don’t think it was mentioned yet on here, looks like the US are going to supply the Luftwaffe with Gray Eagle drones (at least according to a bunch of tg groups)
    They have a range of 400km , 30 hrs of flight time and can carry several hellfire missiles
    https://t.me/intelslava/30588

    But I doubt they have autonomous operation and require two flight operators like the other US drones.

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    Post  crod Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:13 pm

    Can any active service members respond to this?

    I’ve noticed in a few videos from this conflict that the Ukraine appears to have a heck of amount of asbestos roofing on sheds and homes etc. Consequently with ordnance damage coupled with mechanised units throwing up dust etc, what protection or advice is being provided to servicemen in the field? Would be and awful shame for some of these young men to develop chronic lung disease from the inhalation from such contaminated dust in 20 years time.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:15 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #17 - Page 28 Fumusf11
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #17 - Page 28 Fupktq11
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #17 - Page 28 Zhotve11
    Depot in Zhotvene(?), before and after

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    Post  Hole Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:16 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #17 - Page 28 Fun4-g10
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #17 - Page 28 Scree340
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #17 - Page 28 Scree341
    BMP-2 with some extras

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    Post  kvs Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:19 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Kiko wrote:More than defending Donbass from genocide, the question is increasingly becoming a desperate effort of the US to preserve its status as the world hegemon, and Russia is strategically poised to challenge it.

    Pretty much.

    History will record that the US made some strategic blunders in not enforcing their hegemony such that it would last for a very long time.

    First in not really putting the boot into Russia between 1991 and 2000, allowing a nationalist leader, Putin, to come to power.

    Second in not going hard in in 2014/5, allowing Russia to build strength before planning to attempt it in 2022.

    Third by halfheartedly having a go at Russia since 2014 effectively forcing them into an alliance with China, creating a competitor to themselves.

    Instead of the US power in the World being measured on the scale of the hour hand, they, by the own activities have moved it as a minimum to the minutes hand and maybe the seconds hand.

    We live in the very dangerous times of an always aggressive Empire thrashing around in its death throws.

    The US had no hope of taking on Russia in the 1990s since it was militarily intact. It only had comprador Yeltsin to eat away at Russia from inside
    but as demonstrated by the coup that the "silovki" staged to replace Yeltsin after the NATzO gang rape of Serbia, Yeltsin had not enough control
    of the Russian army. The US is used to installing stooge juntas around the world like in Latin America where the generals all report to the US embassy
    for instructions.

    The US was never a hyperpower. It is in a way like the Wizard of Oz. A projection that lacks the substance. But that is how it has been throughout
    history. Power is about fear. When people start to lose the fear, then the power dissipates rapidly. Rome experienced this and so now is NATzO.

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    Post  kvs Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:24 pm

    crod wrote:That video is played in reverse! They were putting the machine in through the window not out of window.

    It's funny how the NATzO propaganda drivel has Russia supposedly stripping cheap processors out of appliances because it desperately
    needs them for its missiles. As if Russia ever used 6502's in its missiles and as if Russia does not fully produce the ASICs and processors
    it needs. NATzO propaganda is designed for retards who are totally uninformed.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:26 pm

    Hole wrote:
    Depot in Zhotvene(?), before and after

    It is stated as 406th ArtBrigade that has just received M777 with the ammo supply.
    90+ KIAs.
    Wonder why they kept one warehouse untouched Laughing Laughing

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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:03 pm

    Your finger is supposed to guard the trigger from snagging but everybody I've seen so far gets the finger in the wrong position completely exposing the trigger. I guess it will prevent someone pulling the trigger accidentally though?

    Ahhh the finger nazis... when I go hunting with my Mosin rifle I put my trigger finger behind the trigger.

    It seems to trigger some people... pun intended... and they tell me that is bad because you should not have your finger anywhere near the trigger until you are ready to fire...

    But I counter that when climbing through bush a branch or twig or stick could brush across the rifle and get into the trigger guard in front of the trigger and push the trigger backwards in a manner that could effectively pull the trigger.

    I understand having my finger inside the trigger guard in front of the trigger means if I slip or lose my balance and instinctively clench my fingers I could also pull the trigger too, but having my finger behind the trigger means clenching my trigger finger wont make any difference and if a twig or stick gets inside the finger guard and compresses the trigger my finger will stop the trigger going far back enough to fire the weapon.

    Most importantly I don't normally have a round in the chamber of my rifle till I have found what I am intending to shoot and have identified it as a suitable target so trigger discipline is an intellectual safety thing...

    My point is that carrying a rifle with your finger straight is not as safe as everyone seems to think because as I mentioned if you manage to slip and you clench your fingers this guys trigger finger is going to end up on the trigger so he had better have the safety on or no round in the chamber if he wants to avoid an ND.

    (Note I have nothing against firearms safety, but only if it makes sense... from a hunters perspective fire arms safety means something different to fire arms safety in a war zone, but I think finger behind the trigger is much safer than finger straight ahead because the latter can end up on the trigger if you slip but the former would have to be consciously pulled out of the trigger guard and moved in front of the trigger to fire the weapon and it also prevents accidental impacts on the trigger from firing the weapon.)

    If Polish troops invade Western Ukraine and eventually clash with the Allied forces there, then NATO's Article 5 does not apply since fight would be in a third country.

    Polish troops entering the battlefield is joining Kievs side and makes them and their country legitimate targets.

    When the US sent troops to fight in Europe during WWI they could hardly complain if the Germans attacked America...

    Just like commonwealth countries couldn't complain if Japan and Germany attacked their shipping in international waters after they joined the war against them.

    I hope not. That one is a dangerous system. Probably, best AA system west can send to Ukraine to date.

    The Orcs will get top dollar for those...

    This war has proved to the Russian government and more importantly to the Russian people that Russia's only true ally, friend is China. It's good to have such a major superpower as an ally.

    China today is as big an ally/friend of Russia as Canada and U.K are to the U.S.

    They are not Russias buddy... if Russia does something stupid they are not going to support them no matter what... but Russia does not want to rule the world and neither does China, but both do want to live in a world where they keep their independence and so does everyone else... they don't want to be controlled by the US or the west collectively and so they are both fighting the same fight... a fight that the EU lost long ago and is pathetic in its whimpering self abuse of cutting off its own cheap energy supply from Russia because the US orders them to... disgusting.

    Trust me, it ain't mines keeping BSF from landing in Odessa

    What is keeping them is that they are not ready yet... take your time... chew your food properly... add some salt and pepper for flavour and then dessert.

    I am supposing there is a reason why they moved their laser system to this conflict now as well - to blind those sats.

    AFAIK they only laser systems they are moving into Ukraine are for anti drone use.

    So no not in production at best prototype stage

    Prototype stage would be untested and only building prototypes... well beyond that already...

    They are already deploying its primary radar system to S-400 batteries because it is designed for long term operations unlike most heavy SAM radar systems.

    Of course I do. In Russia it tends to mean the batch that goes into the military for final testing. After passing its tests it can be released for production. It was those test units, as I understood it, but you might be able to provide a better source, that were added to the A-135 batteries last autumn.

    Not only that but they have already announced an upgraded version of the system called S-550 for even faster moving targets than 7km/s that will be land based and not sea based like the S-500... indicating there will be a naval S-500 system presumably used on Destroyers and Cruisers...

    Agreed, but the poster is a real western journalist.

    And western journalists tend to fake positive news rather than negative news to promote their agenda that Kiev is winning...

    A Muslim cannot live in a civilization that has denied God. .

    Muslims in the Soviet Union seemed to be OK AFAIK...

    I would say a Muslim would be happier in a communist state that didn't endorse but also didn't persecute any particular religion, than in a christain society that tolerated their presence...

    The most free societies do not base their laws on any particular religion.

    I agree , the 4 Himars could come with ATACMS but they won't do anything Tochka could not

    They have said ATACMS would not be included.

    IRIS-T will be neutralized by Russian ground based EW systems.

    Would be a good challenge for the Russians... testing their forces against current HATO weapons... I suspect the DIRCMS fitted to Ka-52s should be suffiicent to deal with IIR guided missiles but we will find out.

    It seems Maxar is focused on grain shipments

    Seems this is a nerve of the western economy they don't want to hit

    I believe that by winter, the price for a loaf of bread will be something which for the west is unexperienced in centuries

    I expect the price of bread in Europe to cost more than 5 euros per loaf by winter time

    Forget about gas, they understand perfectly that bread, pastas, Rices and other oats will cost as much as an appetizer in a clique restaurant

    That's why Maxar is over Crimea and not donbass

    If the west wants to escalate further with new weapons and other support Russia can just escalate by burning their fields and hitting their grain silos and port grain storage facilities and any trucks carrying grain out of the country to the EU... a perfectly legitimate economic target... they same way the US targeted oilfields in Iraq when it invaded... or Syrian oilfields when it illegally occupied...

    Western escalations and Kievs delays need to have a cost associated with them to make them less attractive options... they are not getting that yet but eventually even an idiot realises pushing his hand into a band saw costs him fingers...

    Unfortunately the range is still quite short to safely operate from a truck cabin. Maximum firing range should have been increased to at least 12-15 km otherwise stick with a MBT chassis preferably Armata platform.

    TOS-2 is supposed to have a range of 15km which puts it out of range of most direct fire ATGMs and the wheeled platform can be driven into position... launch and then withdraw to a safe location not revealed to the enemy by the recent launch where they can reload and then move forward to a different location to fire again if required.

    Advantages in mobility and speed and well as lower operating costs and greater standoff launch range distance.

    I think Tornado-G should have some armour to protect its crew from counter battery fire. Of course it's more mobile than a self-propelled howitzer like Mista-S but it makes no sense to not have any kind of armour to protect the crew from explosions & shrapnel.

    Increasing the costs and reducing the mobility does not really make sense for such systems... they wont be armoured against direct hits but should be bullet resistent.

    No level of armour protection will protect the rockets, so it is better to be light and mobile and not there when enemy fire comes in.

    All this stink over 4 HIMARS? Unless they use tactical nukes this will have zero impact. Even with 80KM range they will be hunted down by aviaton or other missiles.

    HIMARS is the light truck model with one launch pod so 6 rockets... a single TOR vehicle could deal with that on its own...

    Even M109s reached the frontline by now.

    If you destroy everything in transit then the operators stay alive in their holes... let them get stuff to the front... burning fuel and losing trains and trucks on the way and intermediate weapons depots and fuel depots and then when they get to the front line locate them by drone and hunt them down with artillery...

    227mm rockets need specific handling vehicles which should make things easier to spot than say a hand loaded Grad system that just uses troops.

    As RTN pointed out... a western artillery unit uses a forklift to carry pallets of 155mm ammo while 152mm ammo has 24 crates with 24 rounds... but what sort of forklift are you going to use on the front line and it burns fuel too which will be in short supply and when it is out of fuel or broken down you open that pallet and you hand carry those 24 155mm rounds the same way the 152mm rounds move but where do you get the extra manpower from to do that?

    It's interesting that no one mentioned the Ainet airburst VT fuse for 125mm HE shells.

    The timers in the rounds are not super precise so they don't explode exactly where they are needed... good enough for firing at helicopters or buildings or firing over heavy cover at soft targets behind but probably not precise enough to detonate directly over a slit trench.

    New command detonation systems for 30mm cannon rounds and 57mm cannon rounds can be utilised with small radar arrays that can detect the precise distance of the round and the target and be very precise in detonating the round with all the calculations done in the vehicle and not the round itself making the rounds super cheap but still very effective.

    It also makes these rounds effective against small air targets like drones and because all the cost is in the vehicle and not the rounds the rounds are cheap and can be produced in enormous numbers which makes them even more useful.

    The Americans looked at the Soviet 30mm grenades which are about as effective as the American 40mm grenades because the bodies of the 30mm grenades are long which gives plenty of area for fragments which is what makes them effective... so they decided to take it further with 20mm grenades that were going to be effective because they would all be air burst rounds.

    The made a grenade launcher worth about 30K dollars with a laser rangefinder and ballistics computer and an induction fuse setter on the muzzle... basically you aimed at the target and lased it... the computer calculated the flight time of the grenade to the target... raise the barrel a fraction of a degree and fire the round... the ballistics computer calculated the time of flight of the projectile to the target, raising the barrel slightly raised the trajectory so the round would go over top of the target but not by much and the time was transmitted to the grenade as it leaves the muzzle via the induction coil.

    A super precise timer in the grenade then counts down and when it reaches zero boom directly over the target. The problem is that the super precise swiss timer circuit is rather expensive and every single grenade needs one for it to work properly.

    They decided that while it would be very effective it would also cost too much.

    The Soviet solution that entered service in the early 1980s was the BG-15 under barrel grenade launcher with a special grenade that has a small precursor charge and a short fuse and then the main charge. You fire the grenade at the target and when it hits the ground at the feet of the enemy the impact fuse sets off a small front charge that blows the grenade up into the air... the short fuse burns for a fraction of a second and sets off the main explosive charge at a height of 1.5 to 2 metres in the air, so leg and feet wounds turn into head and upper body wounds and are vastly more lethal.

    No special timers... small reduction in main charge power but vastly more effective than impact grenades but still cheap to mass produce in enormous numbers... and they also have grenades with impact fuses which have more explosive weight which are better against some targets like trying to blow down doors or blow out windows or to hit a target in the chest if the rest of him is not visible (say he is in a trench or lying down).

    The 30mm and 57mm command detonation systems were supposed to be set off by laser beam but they were worried they might not work through battlefield smoke or rain so it is now a radio command... should be cheap and very effective especially against small light drones.

    1.They should make a gentle earthen ramp for tanks drive up on so they can have an overwatch of the Frontline.
    Make sure the ramp is 4-5km away so the tank is less vulnerable to stugnas.

    They already do that.

    2.If there are Ukrainian trenches within LOS, the Russian tank should use it's thermals for continuous observation of Ukrainian troops.
    3. If the trenches have troops , the tank should lase each portion of the trench glacis, or troops themselves and shoot an Ainet airbursting round so it explodes above the trench. Repeat that Ad nauseum throughout the length of the trench

    Or they could use long range snipers to whittle the numbers down every day and night... but if they are not moving then mortars could be used... the tank could lase the target trenches for Tulip attacks... to create new trenches that are round. The Russians have Gran 120mm mortar bombs that are laser guided... a simple drone flying near could mark specific targets for these guided rounds... so normal cheap dumb mortar bombs could be used to get the enemy to move to parts of the trench with top cover and then a laser guided bomb to hit the section of trench with the top cover to collapse it in and kill them all... cheap and efficient... but not effective agaisnt Manniquins.

    For me this is a guarantee that long range rockets are being sent and they will hit Russian cities. Maybe Moscow. The govt in DC and the president don't make these decisions anyway. They probably know that the CIA is going to do it. So they are trying to distance themselves from it.

    Who knows what Zelensky or the troops on the ground would do if they ever got such long range systems... as their situation gets worse and worse...

    But the point is that the long range missiles only fit one missile to each 6 tube pallet so MLRS could carry two long range missiles and the version they are talking about sending to Ukraine can carry one so even if the four systems make it to the front line and get these long range missiles the most they could launch is 4 missiles... S-300 could deal with such threats and S-350 could deal with them even easier, as would S-400. BUK and Pantsir and TOR could also shoot these weapons down too BTW.

    When firing to full range these rockets would be visible for several minutes because of the trajectory needed to reach such a range which would make them sitting duck targets for the sophisticated air defences around Moscow and the defences around Crimea and St Petersberg etc.

    All of this is Putins error for not sending Kalibrs to everything resembling Nato in Ukraine.

    Hunting down a killing all HATO targets in Ukraine on the first day or in the first weeks of the conflict would leave him with nothing to escalate to if they did start providing longer range weapons... and such a provocation might have led to HATO demanding peacekeepers enter the Ukraine to defend HATO assets and foreigners which would really risk WWIII of a shithole called Ukraine.

    They must have coordinates for all the mayors offices in the various regime controlled cities. At least take out the ones with the biggest mouths. Some of them are posting pictures from their personal cellphones. That should be an easy hit.

    I am sure they will have Humint intel on the ground very keen to eliminate poltical opposition to their way of thinking... and that remains an option if things escalate further but why go full retard to start with... it leaves you no escalation options.

    Germany is the product of Gorbachev's weakness. They should never have reunited. All the liberal, feminist, social democratic shit has been led by Germany for the last 30 years, not to mention that the European Union exists exclusively because of Germany

    In fairness the west made it plain to Gorby that if the Soviets let Germany reunite and withdrew Soviet forces from Eastern Europe the US and UK and France would do the same and Russia would be welcomed into the international community and form one economic zone from the atlantic to the pacific... I remember at the time the west was very careful not to hurt Russian feelings... there was no gloating about the west winning the cold war that bullshit boasting only came later... at the time the feeling was that Russia got democracy so how could we say they lost the cold war if the result was getting rid of communism... but then it didn't take long for western politicians to claim they won the cold war to get reelected into power and the rest was history.

    better bring in guided smerch asap

    The thing with Smerch is taht it does not need to be guided.... if a HIMARS battery of four vehicles launches rockets at Russian forces a Smerch battery located even further away could launch a volley of rockets of a range of types... even limiting yourself to rockets from the early 2000s you could launch a volley of 9N176 rockets which contain 646 HEAT blast fragmentation munitions that have both anti armour effect and also fragmentation area effects too... a battery of 6 vehicles firing a full load of rockets at the launch position of the HIMARS vehicles would mean 6 x 12 x 646 munitions landing from 90km away means almost 47 thousand munitions exploding on and around the firing position... what would guided rounds do to make that more deadly?

    And more importantly a few guided rockets might take out the launchers... but an enormous volley of dumb rockets with cluster munitions will also take out the support vehicles and the crews too which is just as important...

    I would send a dozen drones with high resolution 4K cameras to film it all and then post copies on the internet to show the US how effective HIMARS is and what future crews of the system can expect... Kiev might have trouble recruiting new support and crew for any future batches...

    The wonders of mother nature, the flight of the Kaliber.

    Like the skeletal hand of death reaching up out of the water...  russia

    Without attacking her directly because it would trigger Article 5, Allied forces should openly turn Poland as a scapegoat in retaliation for US' HIMARS and long range guided missiles supplies for Ukraine.
    It would be sheer naivety and idiocy taking for granted US assurances that Zelensky won't use these weapons to attack Russia, for if it's not against her, they'll be used for genocide attempts against Donbass republics.

    Himars is lighter and cheaper (than MLRS but not cheaper than SMERCH) and less capable than Smerch which they already had in use in the Ukraine and have lost and had rockets shot down when they use them.

    HIMARS likely wont fare any better IMHO.

    Russia should really make it clear that if  foreign supplied weapons attack Russian territory it reserves the right to retaliate directly to whatever nation supplies them in any fashion it deems appropriate, including a complete takeover of said states. (talking you you Baltics, Finland and Sweden..also Poland). It should also announce it will triple the number of heavy artillary assets to accelerate the campaign and counter western weapons. (does not matter if they do it or not).

    The longer the conflict goes on the more it will cost former Ukraine.

    Kartapolov also stressed that if the special operation had not happened, then in early March the Ukrainian armed forces would have launched an offensive against the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics.

    In other words this war was going to happen... the only thing in question was who struck first and who took the heaviest blow and I for one am glad it was Putin and Russia who struck first.

    The Americans call it pre emptive self defence.

    I mocked them for that because the threat they always warned of that they were defending themselves from was made up, but in this case it was based in fact and therefore justified.

    Why wasn't it destroyed in March?

    Possibly a lot of civilian traffic and also food and resouces for the population of the Ukraine... but using it to bring weapons means it becomes a target... like using ambulances to bring troops forward you take advantage of the rules of war and get burned.

    In effect a cost of escalation from the west.... we will let you use a train tunnel as long as you don't abuse the priviledge... using it to bring in weapons is an abuse and now you will lose the use of the train tunnel for any use.

    Biden and Blinken narratives to justify the delivery of MLRS to Zelensky is old wives tales.

    They claim they wont use them against Russia but then they also agreed to follow the Minsk agreement so why trust them... when their backs are against the wall they will probably do anything.... on the positive side if they do then Russia will probably start to target the Kiev regime... so there is that... besides Russian air defence has already shot down Smerch rockets so HIMARS are smaller calibre slower rockets that should be as easy to shoot down.

    The people who voted for Poroshenko and Zelensky (50+% of population), for the most part, DO NOT DESERVE to ever join Russia ! No, never ever as part of the Russian Federation !
    And you who disagree with me that I wrote that Russia should never take the regions west of the Dnieper, you are mistaken and not me.

    The 75% that voted for Zelensky did so because he promised better relations with Russia and a peaceful solution to the Donbass Lugansk issues.

    That is not to say they wanted to join the Russian federation but it does mean they rejected the nazi plan of taking donbass and lugansk and crimea and moscow by force...

    And by nazi I mean US HATO plan.

    Looks like no AAA of 60 to 70 mms available now , but T62 can hit 9500 meter with frag warhead ,with 3OF18 ? as well as some anti - Tank guided tube launched ATGM ?

    Against troops in trenches then mortars and the weapon of choice... cheap and simple and with airburst rounds they can be very effective... a 16kg 120mm mortar is nothing to sneese at... an a 130kg 240mm mortar will remove teeth from your mouth...

    Direct tank fired HE rounds can hit bunkers and fortified firing positions but are not ideal for use against troops in trenches.

    Against air targets HE equipped Kornet EM missiles can fly 10km and reach 10km altitude and are laser beam riding missiles that are supersonic and would be rather effective against most drone types too.

    The auto target tracker that points the laser beam essentially makes them fire and forget though the system has to continue following the target to impact it does so without human interference.

    What is CEP of this round of t62? So bring them in against trench ! And yes :

    CEP for a gun is an oval which becomes very important for a trench target.... the CEP for the 122mm gun at its max range of 15km is about 9m wide and about 50m long... so a shell fired from 15km away might land 4.5m either side of the aim point but might also land 25m short or 25m past the target.  Not ideal for landing in a trench but that is why you use a battery of guns and fire volleys of shots.

    In normal conflict with an attacking force you normally fire volleys of rounds at the front trenches forcing the enemy troops to withdraw from the front line trenches to the next line back with the intention of rushing forward to reoccupy the front trenches when the enemy troops move forward to try to get into your front trenches and just mow them down with machine gun and rifle fire. Obviously the enemy might fire a few shots at the frontline trenches and then dial up and just hammer the second line of trenches while their troops rush forward to get to the first line of trenches before the enemy forces recover... but then the defending troops might remain in the front trenches and then mow down your troops... it is action reaction based on what has happend in the past... each trying to be clever.

    There is no one off solution that will work for everything... except probably tactical nukes... which not much can stop, but is hard to justify unless the goal is to completely obliterate the enemy... military and civilian...

    The Su-25SM3 aircraft is a modernized version of the Su-25 (also known as "Rook") - an armored subsonic attack aircraft designed to directly support ground forces over the battlefield day and night with direct line of sight of the target, as well as to destroy objects with given coordinates around the clock in any weather conditions.

    Almost like they read this forum and saw Vann dissing the Su-25... hilarious...

    The Su-25SM3 modification received the GLONASS satellite navigation system with the ability to program the end point with an accuracy of 10 m of the SVP-24-25 sighting and navigation system (SVP-24 Gefest variant), which makes it possible to increase the accuracy of unguided aircraft weapons to the level of guided weapons . The aircraft is capable of destroying small ground targets and air targets at any time of the day. The combat effectiveness of the vehicle has improved three times compared to other modifications.

    There you go... proof that those lofted rocket launches are not showing off and horrendously ineffective... of course ground based rocket launchers like Grad and Uragan and Smerch "loft" their rockets into the air to reach distant targets... part of the calculations is to work out the angle of elevation for the launch... which is what the system on the Su-25 would be doing too except it would be doing it in real time.

    The airborne defense complex "Vitebsk" was developed by the Samara Research Institute "Ekran" for the individual protection of aircraft and helicopters from guided missiles and MANPADS. Protection is carried out by setting optical and electronic interference. The first deliveries of the complex to the Russian army began in 2015. There is also an export version of the complex called "President-S", which is very popular on the foreign market and is supplied to a number of countries that operate Russian aviation equipment.

    This would be an excellent real world test of the system too... should boost foreign sales.... does India buy these systems for aircraft and helicopters?

    Sounds like they should start if they don't already.

    It looks that @Ark.. believed that satellittes hover around russian army positions for 24 hours.

    They don't have to hover... no recon aircraft are based on helicopters that hover over target areas... but to get good coverage you need a lot of satellites which you can switch to to get near continuous coverage if need be... it all depends on the location... and depending on the latitude some regions you can use satellites in higher orbits for longer periods of coverage... technology with cameras in terms of resolution and magnification has improved dramatically over the decades and being digital it can be beamed directly to HQ or via other satellite uplinks, instead of waiting for the film to be dropped and recovered and processed and then analysed... which could take weeks.

    - Not aware that the image quality of drones can't be surpassed by any satellite from space.

    That is not true at all... ground fog effects optical cameras from 100m to 300km the same... and most drones have rubbish cameras...

    -not aware that satellites can be blinded and jammed its gps coordinates..

    The only known satellite blinding system is Russian and based on the lack of complaints from the US it probably has not been used yet... except testing no doubt.

    The laser systems sent to the Ukraine are not blinding lasers they are drone destroying lasers...

    Who cares about the GPS coordinates of a satellite and why jam them?

    -not aware that clouds ,can get in the way of satellites spying from space.

    Depends on the satellite... some use radar, others use IR for which some clouds are invisible...

    Drones can even differentiate civilians ,children from military forces and very good for night vision too, good luck trying to do that with a satellite in space.

    You mean the way they detected a dozen Afghan children as being ISIS terrorists in Kabul at the start of the year and murdered them all along with their father and uncle?

    Easy to shoot drones down if you know they are there and you have the right equipment... not so easy to shoot down satellites.

    Suffice to say drones are not useless but those that can afford both have both.

    sorry ark..you are out of touch with reality, you need air drones for real time information of enemy positions and movements  by the minute.. only drones can do that.  so an apology will be nice .

    Yeah, but one of the core problems of flying so low is that you would need a billion drones to cover an area the size of the Ukraine the way a satellite could do every day...

    Sounds to me like the Russians are saying their losses are minimal and you claim they are losing more and more men because they don't have enough drones for the sole reason they have not published enough drone footage for your liking... wonder who owes who an apology.

    @ARk..  it is russian weakness with the use of drones , and weakness in their production capabilities ,

    To make such a statement you must have excellent information about how many drones they have and what they have been doing with them and their production capacity... feel free to share this information with us so we can see how right you are and how wrong we have been... then you can have an apology.

    If however, you don't know shit and are parroting the whining of some cocksucker on Twitter or Face Book or some other faggot online media mouthpiece for Kiev... well you will have reduced any reputation you might have had to zero... or is that increased it? Hard to say.

    Are you aware that if Russia includes parts west of the Dnieper, it would mean the spread of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Ukrainian language in Russia...

    I rather suspect any parts of the former Ukraine that want independence or even to join the Russian federation will want to stop speaking Orc and return to speaking Russian and will likely join the Russian branch of the church rather than the one operating from what is left of Kiev.

    (Sell safari tickets afterwards to rich weirdos who want to do freaky shit to other people without consequences)

    Hire people to walk around saying "get out of here Stalker..."  the foreigners will love it...

    How can irbis do this? How can he break off without holding aim ?

    Is r77 aesa head tracking on its own there??

    R-77 is ARH and once it gets to within 25km of the target will be using its own radar for the attack... of course if it is launched outside that range the IRST could continue to track the target making sure it does not deviate a lot from its current flight path meaning the R-77 will start looking for the target when it gets close enough and find the target and take it out.

    A beggar should not pretend to be the chooser.

    Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

    Don’t think it was mentioned yet on here, looks like the US are going to supply the Luftwaffe with Gray Eagle drones (at least according to a bunch of tg groups)
    They have a range of 400km , 30 hrs of flight time and can carry several hellfire missiles

    When you say Luftwaffe do you mean the German Air Force or Kievs nazi air force?

    They already said the HIMARS wont come with the long range ATCMS missiles because they are worried about escalations if desperate Kiev forces attack Russia with them...  so I rather doubt they would send these to Kiev... but if they do that would be a massive escalation that might end up biting them in the arse... so go ahead I say...

    I wonder if the SVP-24 is what helps them know when to fire their rockets so they fly up and right into their targets.

    it is a nav attack ballistic computer that calculates launch conditions for unguided weapons... bombs and rockets.

    to drop bombs they use the system to allow accurate use of freefall bombs at medium altitude (8-10km) which is safe from small arms and MANPADS, but for rockets it seems to allow lofted delivery to extend the distance from the target coordinates that the rockets can be launched from keeping the aircraft further from the targets air defence.

    If this is the case that suggests that perhaps if the target is defended with medium and high altitude air defences then the dumb bombs might be delivered from low altitude and high speed and lofted in a toss bomb attack too to maximise the distance the weapons can be deployed from to hit the targets.

    And I would bet it is a bullshit.
    You see the missile type indicator on the right - 77-1.
    And there is only one target on the HUD, down left, with lock on symbol and "1" marking.
    3 missiles seems an overkill, yet ...

    Depends on what the target is... if it is a Tochka missile headed for a civilian area perhaps he wants to be sure to hit the target... three lots of 40kgs of HE is sure.

    Maybe they are older stock missiles and there have been failures so fire three and reload more often to use up old stocks and get to the good stuff.

    The R-77 can be used against emitting ground targets too AFAIK... maybe he is attacking an aircraft and also artillery radar... the video does not work for me.

    First in not really putting the boot into Russia between 1991 and 2000, allowing a nationalist leader, Putin, to come to power.

    They shredded Russian industry and turned Russia into a gas station... Yeltsen was essentially told you don't need to make anything... just pump gas and oil and use the money we pay for that to buy all the stuff you need from us.

    That was how Putin was able to do what he did because Russians saw their country being destroyed by the west.

    If they had gone in and funded hospitals and actually helped the Russains instead of funding oil well exploration and mines for mineral wealth then the Russians might have a much better opinion of the west and might have accepted different relations that were not completely equal but not master slave like the Europeans seem to thrive on.

    Second in not going hard in in 2014/5, allowing Russia to build strength before planning to attempt it in 2022.

    Again the reality is that they were being  censored  to Russia from about 2008 if not before, and all that bullshit spread over such a long period allowed Russia to grow and develop bits at a time... if they had closed the door in 2008 Russia really would have suffered and not be the country it is now.

    Of course the entire west has changed too... much worse than it has ever been before... I guess it is the level of control the western intel services have over western media because the west never does anything wrong and everything is Putins fault or Xi or North Korea or Assad or anyone but the west.


    Third by halfheartedly having a go at Russia since 2014 effectively forcing them into an alliance with China, creating a competitor to themselves.

    Russia and China are two countries that were never going to allow the US to tell them what to do... Russia and China know the US well enough to know they are narcisists and really don't care about any other country... what fucking idiot would follow them... apart from the UK and the EU and the west....

    Instead of the US power in the World being measured on the scale of the hour hand, they, by the own activities have moved it as a minimum to the minutes hand and maybe the seconds hand.

    The core point is that all the damage done to the US has been done by the US... using the US dollar as a weapon has weakened it immensely... turning the EU against Russia and China just so the US remains relevant and can sell some gas has made Russia and China much more independent and more dangerous than the EU could manage on its own... in fact more dangerous than all of HATO could manage... The Ukraine has been dealt with using a rather small force and they went in there trying not to get a big body count in the interests of future relations... a fight with HATO and they wont give a **** about future relations it will be a fight for survival and it will be a fight to the death... and the way the HATO trained Orcs have performed with honestly better AD and anti armour weapons and equipment than most of HATO actually uses... I think the rest of HATO would struggle to do better because the satellites and recon planes operating in HATO territory would be taken down too, which would change the fight significantly and HATO airpower would not last long no matter what western pro air power Zealots would suggest.

    We live in the very dangerous times of an always aggressive Empire thrashing around in its death throws.

    A breakup of the west is overdue... the US has shown where its leadership leads and that is not good for anyone in Europe or the South Pacific or North Pacific for that matter.

    A multipolar world based on international law where the US cannot do as it pleases would actually be good for the EU not that they seem to realise it yet.... the biggest threat to the EU is Russia because the US makes it so and the US is not afraid of an EU Russia conflict in the same way it is not afraid of an India China conflict... in fact it probably sees either as a solution to its current debt situation and problems.

    India and China and the EU need to realise they have a better future ahead of them if they just trade with their neighbours and stop letting the US poke them with a stick and then put the stick in their hands pretending you are doing the poking.

    Would be and awful shame for some of these young men to develop chronic lung disease from the inhalation from such contaminated dust in 20 years time.

    Asbestos was a funny material... effective for the job but that hidden danger. The weird thing is that some people were around the stuff for decades and had no problems at all while some didn't have that much contact and got lung problems.

    Most of the worst cases were people working in buildings with asbestos insulation in the air conditioning system, or were installers that had to cut the stuff up meaning they were constantly exposed to the fibres... most workers back then didn't wear masks or goggles or any protection.... fingers and hands were lost....

    The point is that although the west is hyper sensitive about the damn stuff there are probably 100 other things in the Ukraine they should be more worried about than this. It is not nothing... but it is something that does need to be sorted moving forward.

    Cheap but good affordable housing for the poor would be a good start for the areas of the former Ukraine friendly to Russia moving forward and that could be extended to outlying areas in Russia too in small villiages where people are living in shacks... it is a quality of life thing and should be spread across Russia and friendly parts of the former Ukraine and the rest of the world.... tailored to different climates of course and different local materials as well.

    Power is about fear. When people start to lose the fear, then the power dissipates rapidly. Rome experienced this and so now is NATzO.

    US Power is also based on the US dollar, and as they use that as a weapon its power weakens and it is essentially like removing the keystone in a building...

    When that is removed the whole structure becomes weak and vulnerable to collapse at any force applied to it.


    Last edited by GarryB on Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:11 pm

    Hole wrote:
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #17 - Page 28 Fupktq11
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #17 - Page 28 Zhotve11
    Depot in Zhotvene(?), before and after

    This is a depot in Korabelniy, Nikolaev, located right next to the grain terminal "Olvia". Coordinates 46.825695, 31.951484

    It was destroyed several months ago:
    https://forbes.ua/ru/news/vorog-zavdav-raketnogo-udaru-po-portu-olviya-07032022-4306

    Unless they repaired it and it was hit yet again, these new-ish satellite images of it probably just show the aftermath of that old strike (the fact that it looks to have already been somewhat cleaned-up suggests as much) and then somebody erroneously connected it with a recent strike on an artillery base (incl M777s) reported by the RU MoD.

    And then it started circulating all over the place, with this "Zhotvene" name for some reason.

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    Post  Mir Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:00 pm

    crod wrote:Can any active service members respond to this?

    I’ve noticed in a few videos from this conflict that the Ukraine appears to have a heck of amount of asbestos roofing on sheds and homes etc. Consequently with ordnance damage coupled with mechanised units throwing up dust etc, what protection or advice is being provided to servicemen in the field? Would be and awful shame for some of these young men to develop chronic lung disease from the inhalation from such contaminated dust in 20 years time.

    Combat soldiers are continuously exposed to all sorts of bad things anyway. There is the well documented long term negative effects of DU. One interesting aspect of the Javelin missile is that the operator needs to hold it's breath when firing the missile due to the high lead content in the missile's fuel. Not to mention flying shrapnel and bullets! Then there are things like lasers and exposure to over-pressure and extreme heat/cold etc etc. But yes things like asbestos in building material should be a no-no.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:28 pm

    TASS; Military operation in Ukraine
    Jun 2, 13:56 (Updated 13:59)

    The Crimean authorities explained the explosions in the port of Berdyansk by demining the territory

    According to Oleg Kryuchkov, adviser to the head of the republic on information policy, all the stories about sabotage and reconnaissance groups that appeared earlier in several Telegram channels are fake.



    SIMFEROPOL, June 2. /TASS/. Demining works are carried out in the port of Berdyansk, which is under the control of the Russian army. Oleg Kryuchkov, adviser to the head of Crimea on information policy, announced this on Thursday on his Telegram channel.

    On Thursday, several Telegram channels reported an alleged explosion in the port of Berdyansk.

    "In Berdyansk. Explosions are demining the port. All stories about DRGs (sabotage and reconnaissance groups, etc.) from Ukrainian Telegram channels are fake," Kryuchkov said in a statement.

    The Telegram channel of the Kherson and Zaporozhye-24 TV channel, which is part of the Krym-24 television and radio company, published a video from the demining site, where an explosion was also recorded. It is specified that the engineering service of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation is carrying out demining work, specialists of the engineering troops unit plan to carry out a complete demining of the fairway of the Berdyansk port in three days for the safe resumption of work.

    https://tass.ru/obschestvo/14802853

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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:36 pm

    Actually the site where DU ammo has been used against Armour... whether the DU was in the APFSDS round or the armour would be much more dangerous than Asbestos.

    The powder formed from a high energy impact with DU and any other metal is a very fine dust that is easy to ingest or inhale and is genotoxic.

    Western users of the ammo claim it generates less radiation than normal garden soil and does not generate enough radiation to get through a layer of skin so humans are totally safe.

    The problem is that in fine powder form like after a high energy impact, ingesting the material into your body and the body mistakes the metal powder for another metal... calcium... and when your body ingests DU it uses it the way it uses calcium... it uses it to create bones or teeth and when DU is in your bones next to the bone marrow that is critical in your bodies defence agaisnt germs and viruses, that weak radiation that wont penetrate skin goes to work destroying your genetic structure.

    The term is genotoxic.

    Leads to cancer in the victim and inherited genetic defects in offspring... it shortens the lives of the victims and destroys the lives of potential children.

    But it is very effective at what it does and being the remains of fuel rods with the high energy enriched Uranium component depleted they are essentially rubbish... compared with the alternative materials like tungsten which are super expensive...
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    Post  Vann7 Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:36 pm

    anyone with photoshop skills ? can re-paint this map ?


    This should be close the final map of ukraine .. after Russia super slow/inefficient de-natification
    operation ends. This map was apparently uploaded to twitter by a russian politician in 2014.
    after the civil war in kiev.



    Oh dear Russian Duma deputy
    @A_Sidyakin
    has tweeted a map showing Ukraine divided in 4

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #17 - Page 28 Blfcr5oIUAElQfm?format=jpg&name=small


    However i argue that the zone with the "ukraine flag" should be puppet state ,protectorate of Russia.
    The region with the ukraine flag could be called  "mallorossiya protectorate of Russia federation"

    Then the donbass zone , from north of kharkiv to odessa , should be the new "novorrosiya protectorate of Russia Federation."

    Then the part , only the one painted in red to the border with poland , be the " ukraine" . lol1


    Crimea should continue being russian official land.

    and here is the real deal ,  that russia should control the borders with hungary with a corridor ,
    throught mallorosiya , this way,Russia can create a land corridor and air corridor to central europe bypassing all the trade sanctions with the EU imposed by brussels , because if there is a land corridor ,anything can be traded easily in secret,using the barter system or BRICS banks and in secret without using western banks bypassing sanctions.  Wink

    take a look at all the benefits..

    ukraine = lvov

    new ukraine = novorrosiya ,mallorosiya

    1) Russia --> new ukraine -> hungary --> Austria -> Germany

    2) Russia -->new ukraine ->hungary ->serbia -->bulgaria all the way to -->Greece.

    This last one allows a land and air corridor bypassing Erdogan bosphurus strait , Also this will
    help russia bypass the west attempts to isolate russia from europe ,even when so many nations there wants to continue trading with russia , including italy ,hungary ,austria ,and greece. a land corridor like this will significantly limit the control of the EU over its central and eastern europe.

    3) in case NATO attacks serbia again , then russia can provide serbia with weapons .ammo and supplies using this land-air corridor .

    4) china could be extremely interesting in this corridor ,because will allow china to connect to central europe , through Russia -new novo-mallorosiya to central europe corridor. it could become the new official route of china , of belt and roads . and super fast trains created by the chinesse.

    finally ,something that could be done is invite china to do a lot of the construction in new ukraine and bring as many chinesse they can , to repopulate the zone with asians, transform the new ukraine , into the hub center of distribution of chinnese products and technology in all europe.. this would truly be the master chess move..   because china no longer could be contained its sea trade routes in case they facing war on the sea by supposed "pirates" armed with nato nuclear submarines to target their merchant ships , by bribed countries in south asia , by the west ,controlling the trade channels there..
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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:55 pm

    Vann7, I will not quote your posts, as I see that it irritates many.
    The picture you sent with the division of Ukraine cannot be as it is. The Volyn region which is the northernmost region on the border with Belarus will belong to Belarus rather than Poland.
    On your map are Rovno, Ternopoly (rus; Тернополь) and Chernivtskaya region in the "black and red" field. Does that mean that you would assign those areas to Poland?
    No chance, because it will never belong to Poland - wet Polish dreams.
    The only "ulcers" are the Lvov and Ivano-Frankovsk regions.

    Areas with the Russian flag; accession to the Russian Federation. Areas with the flag of Ukroshitstan; Russian protectorate under the Russian military boot and with Russian military bases.
    LVOV OBLAST; testing of tactical and intercontinental ballistic missiles. Before that, displace everyone.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #17 - Page 28 Lresr210

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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:04 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Kiko wrote:More than defending Donbass from genocide, the question is increasingly becoming a desperate effort of the US to preserve its status as the world hegemon, and Russia is strategically poised to challenge it.

    Pretty much.

    History will record that the US made some strategic blunders in not enforcing their hegemony such that it would last for a very long time.

    First in not really putting the boot into Russia between 1991 and 2000, allowing a nationalist leader, Putin, to come to power.

    Second in not going hard in in 2014/5, allowing Russia to build strength before planning to attempt it in 2022.

    Third by halfheartedly having a go at Russia since 2014 effectively forcing them into an alliance with China, creating a competitor to themselves.

    Instead of the US power in the World being measured on the scale of the hour hand, they, by the own activities have moved it as a minimum to the minutes hand and maybe the seconds hand.

    We live in the very dangerous times of an always aggressive Empire thrashing around in its death throws.

    Put the boot into Russia between 1991 and 2000, lol

    They showed that they wouldn't put the boot into Iran when they were challenged by them. And with Iran successfully staring the West down and surviving sanctions, that gave more than enough time for Russia to consolidate and for China to build up its economy

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    Post  ludovicense Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:44 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    ludovicense wrote:AZ OSINT
    @AZmilitary1
    Today, Russia occupies about 24% of the territory of the former Ukraine — about 144 thousand square kilometers. You can clearly understand the scale by comparing the size of the occupied territories with the size of the territories of European states.


    https://twitter.com/AZmilitary1/status/1532015985640841220

    ...and increases day by day....

    Every occupied centimeter will never return to Ukraine. It's lost forever.

    Correction:  Every liberated centimeter will never return to Ukraine. It's lost forever.  Razz


    Perfect.... Very Happy

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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:11 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:If someone has not understood me so far, I will write openly.
    The people who voted for Poroshenko and Zelensky (50+% of population), for the most part, DO NOT DESERVE to ever join Russia ! No, never ever as part of the Russian Federation !
    And you who disagree with me that I wrote that Russia should never take the regions west of the Dnieper, you are mistaken and not me.
    Are you aware that if Russia includes parts west of the Dnieper, it would mean the spread of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Ukrainian language in Russia itself in the future ? Do you really want that ?
    The same ukrainian people accepted the government, which banned the Russian language, Russian political parties, the translation of Russian films into Ukrainian, burned people in Odessa, torture of people in Donbass for 8 years and many other evils. And would you like such people to be a part of Russia? You who are Russians on this forum, I have to ask you if you want such "brothers" as part of Russia ?
    I am convinced that Russia does not have a goal to occupy the whole of Ukraine, but aims to break Ukraine militarily into pieces and economically to stone age, so that after the conflict, only misery and despair remain for the diminished Ukraine. And then in the future, let them ask themselves what they needed all that for, to be cannon fodder for foreign interests. Leave them a couple of decades to sober up.

    And when this operation is over, then what is left of Ukraine will no longer be interesting to anyone. And that will also bring the main thing, the defeat of the West.
    PapaDragon wrote:
    It will be more than interesting and it's exactly what they want

    If you give them anything you lose (they already lost this way before)

    Russia doesn't need to absorb the whole thing but nothing can be given to anyone

    Take everything, depopulate it if required and if there's something​ left turn it into eternal drone-bombed hellscape


    (Sell safari tickets afterwards to rich weirdos who want to do freaky shit to other people without consequences)



    That feeling when the Russia-Ukraine threads get taken over by genocidal Serb monarchists

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #17 - Page 28 Feelin10

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    flamming_python
    flamming_python


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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #17 - Page 28 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #17

    Post  flamming_python Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:33 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:....The parliamentarian noted that at the initial stage, when the Russian Armed Forces entered the territory controlled by the Kiev authorities, no one used weapons. “But when they began to shoot, burn, capture, mock them, of course, then the tactics were changed, the approach to the very essence of the operation was changed....

    Someone should hang for this


    Reportedly some people have been arrested over the high losses in the first days

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