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    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8

    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Oct 31, 2023 5:18 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    The later Su-57 prototypes got the large screen display and wide angle HUD:
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8 - Page 31 E67hr710
    Its one wide screen and 2 vertical monitors on each side.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Tue Oct 31, 2023 5:22 pm

    I think the entire surface acts as one single screen. I don't know if it is one of those screens which can be bent, or three screens with no gaps between them. But they can act as a single screen.

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    BenVaserlan
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    Post  BenVaserlan Wed Nov 01, 2023 5:11 pm

    https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/su57-3500km-stealth-cruise-missile

    Report on the LRCM.

    NB: the articles on this website tend to have grammos and some spelling errors. Here's quite a big one: putting "with" instead of "without".

    "Although the Su-57 was initially widely criticised by Western observers as lacking in stealth capabilities, these judgements were made based on observations of prototypes with the production quality of serial production models demonstrating a finishing which could facilitate a much lower radar cross section."

    That stated, I check the website every day.
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    Post  Arrow Wed Nov 01, 2023 5:21 pm

    which can help compensate for shortcomings in other areas such as avionics compared to its American and Chinese rivals. wrote:

    What stupidity. The avionics of the Su-57 are no different from the American or Chinese ones. It's probably much better.
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:00 pm

    The Su-57 has more advanced and modern electronics than the current Block 3 F-35. Let alone the pathetically outdated F-22.
    The avionics are powered by Elbrus-2SM processors and NeuroMatrix AI accelerators. The networking is done with fiber optics. The radar uses second generation gallium arsenide elements.

    The only thing you could say it currently lacks vs the F-35 is the integrated virtual reality helmet. But they are working on one. As is the cockpit is way more advanced than the F-22's.

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    Post  Arrow Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:14 pm

    In addition, the airframe is a masterpiece of modern engineering, combining stealth technology with incredible maneuvering abilities, high maneuverability at supersonic speeds, etc. Thanks to the new engines, it will even increase its performance. In addition, modern engine intake ducts will not reduce thrust as much as, for example, the F22.

    The radar uses second generation gallium arsenide elements. wrote:

    Do the USA and China already use GaN-based modules in the most modern radars?

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    Gomig-21
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    Post  Gomig-21 Wed Nov 01, 2023 8:33 pm

    lyle6 wrote:
    lancelot wrote:
    The later Su-57 prototypes got the large screen display and wide angle HUD:
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8 - Page 31 E67hr710
    Its one wide screen and 2 vertical monitors on each side.

    That's pretty much what it is with the 2 vertical side monitors/screens slightly angled to better assist the pilot's visual acuity like they do with flight simulators. It also allows for image continuity.  

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8 - Page 31 OIP

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    Post  Swgman_BK Wed Nov 01, 2023 9:15 pm

    That is unlikely to be the actual Su57 avionics suite.. Looks like an upgrade for the SU35S. The SU57s should be wrapped up..

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    Gomig-21
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    Post  Gomig-21 Wed Nov 01, 2023 11:09 pm

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8 - Page 31 F8-l0jyWwAAwRZn?format=jpg&name=small

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    Post  lancelot Thu Nov 02, 2023 1:50 am

    Arrow wrote:Do the USA and China already use GaN-based modules in the most modern radars?
    GaN is still only used in naval radars and not all of them. It is used for example in the Japanese Asahi-class destroyers or the US Arleigh Burke Flight III.

    It is also claimed that the Chinese have them. Possibly in the Type 055 destroyer. But as with most things with the Chinese, due to their secrecy, you can never quite know what is really there.

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    Post  Swgman_BK Thu Nov 02, 2023 5:49 am

    The Su-57 has more advanced and modern electronics than the current Block 3 F-35. Let alone the pathetically outdated F-22. The avionics are powered by Elbrus-2SM processors and NeuroMatrix AI accelerators. The networking is done with fiber optics. The radar uses second generation gallium arsenide elements. The only thing you could say it currently lacks vs the F-35 is the integrated virtual reality helmet. But they are working on one. As is the cockpit is way more advanced than the F-22's. wrote:


    As much as I am a big fan of the Su57 I seriously doubt this. The Su57 is better than anything American (F35 included) in some aspects but a little behind in others. The only difference is Russia admits it(Maybe not officially) and works to counter those "advantages" the US might think they have.. The US lies and idiots believe it.. The Su57 most likely has about 80% of the processing power that the F35 does.. 80% is too low maybe 95%.. There is just no way to circumvent the spending advantage on the F35. The F35 system for a fact does have better SAR capabilities (For now) than the SU57.. (Thats where it ends though, Other Russian platforms/Su35S have better SAR than their American counterparts except for the Blk 3 F/A18). The F/A18 Block 3 by Boeing uses the exact same SAR system the F35 does although toned down.. They even had a demonstration of it once.. Its resolution is probably best in the industry.. It looks like night vision and can see through your average house walls(So can any other fighters SAR, but this one is in high resolution with a lot more depth and quality).. And this is just from EM Radar waves..Using radar returns to map a motion picture..

    Aside from that the F35 has leg up on data linking capabilities..Oh and the Su57 also has VR capabilities in its helmet. You can see through the Su57s body using the helmet.. Just like the F35. The F35 is more flying computer than fighter jet. Its a stand off weapon. Not designed to get in harms way.. It quickly dies in harms way.. The Mig-31 actually predates the F35s Networking capabilities but they were very primitive and limited to just target info sharing..🤔 Its the first fighter to data link..🤔 And use a PESA for the job.. So Russia definitely knows what do but the time, effort and money just isnt there..

    But the Su57 dynamically is a whole different animal..Nothing with those Su57 aerodynamics has been created and likely wont be for the next decade.. The F22 is vastly inferior to the Su57 in this regard and might be stealth wise too. We only know it has the RCS of a small ball from a certain angle (physically impossible anyway unless its from extreme ranges)...

    We also dont know what the SU57 uses for a computer.. It is local and Russian but we don't know what it is.. Rumors in Russia claim its Elbrus but we cannot point to that as fact.. Russia has many other smaller design firms that are strictly Military contractors (Hence why we will never hear about them).. One of them could have built the processors for the SU57 System..
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Nov 02, 2023 6:01 am

    lancelot wrote:
    Arrow wrote:Do the USA and China already use GaN-based modules in the most modern radars?
    GaN is still only used in naval radars and not all of them. It is used for example in the Japanese Asahi-class destroyers or the US Arleigh Burke Flight III.

    It is also claimed that the Chinese have them. Possibly in the Type 055 destroyer. But as with most things with the Chinese, due to their secrecy, you can never quite know what is really there.

    Before TR1 bailed out, I remember him posting GaN modules of 30W range used on the Polemont Redut system on modern frigates and corvettes. That was years ago. So I'm curious which ones they use now. NPO ISTOK doesn't even advertise anymore due to Russia going the secrecy route like China.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 02, 2023 6:18 am

    which can help compensate for shortcomings in other areas such as avionics compared to its American and Chinese rivals. wrote:

    The Soviets were working on sensor fusion in the 1980s with MiG-31 and MiG-29 and Su-27 combining nose mounted radar arrays with IRST sensors... their next generation Su-35 and MiG-35 went steps further with the Su-35 having AESA radar array elements in its wing leading edge specifically for finding low RCS targets, and the MiG-35 having two IRST systems... one on the nose and one under the engine nacelle for air and ground targets... they had helmet mounted sights and high offboresight AAMs since the 1980s too with the R-73 and also the IR guided versions of the R-27 also being compatible with the system.

    The helmet mounted sight, which was derided in the west for not being a helmet mounted display, could be used to cue the radar and IRST sensors, but also be used to cue weapon sensors to look for targets rather than having to scan its entire field of view to find such targets... making target acquisition much faster and much more precise... when there are several aircraft in front of you putting the crosshair of your helmet mounted sight on the target you want to lock and then pushing a button for your missile to look there and get the lock is much faster than getting the missile to scan to find it itself and possibly getting a lock on something else.

    They are working on VR helmets for armoured vehicles as well as attack helicopters so I would expect something similar for 5th fighter pilots too.

    Even the third generation Ratnik combat suite is supposed to have goggles with a built in display system for information in a heads up display.

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    Post  lancelot Thu Nov 02, 2023 8:42 am

    They are working on it. Should be in service eventually. This is the helicopter version:

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8 - Page 31 Ncsi-110

    It is based on a ZSH-10 helmet base. This is the helmet currently used in the Su-57:

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #8 - Page 31 Scale_10


    Last edited by lancelot on Thu Nov 02, 2023 8:52 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Arrow Thu Nov 02, 2023 8:51 am

    The Su57 most likely has about 80% of the processing power that the F35 does.. 80% is too low maybe 95%.. wrote:

    On what basis did you draw these conclusions? Any comparison of processors and computers on the F-35 and Su-57, if it can be compared in detail?
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    Post  lancelot Thu Nov 02, 2023 8:53 am

    No. The F-35 currently (Block 3) has a less powerful ICP than the Su-57's compute module. The F-35 uses PowerPC MPC7448 chips vs the Elbrus-2SM on the Su-57. The F-22 is even worse, it uses i960MX processors. This is supposed to change when Block 4 comes out. Whenever that does happen.


    Last edited by lancelot on Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Arrow Thu Nov 02, 2023 8:57 am

    4 comes out. Whenever that does happen. wrote:

    During this time, the Su-57 will also undergo modernization. As far as we know, Russia can already install even better processors on the Su-57?
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    Post  lancelot Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:07 am

    Arrow wrote:During this time, the Su-57 will also undergo modernization. As far as we know, Russia can already install even better processors on the Su-57?
    The Su-57 already has better processors than F-35 Block 3. The Elbrus-2SM is more powerful than the PowerPC MPC7448 processors the F-35 uses.
    The Su-57 also has the specialized NeuroMatrix processors to accelerate AI algorithms. It probably uses these to do the radar signal processing and automatically identify targets detected by the sensors (both the radars and the IRST). The NeuroMatrix is an advanced DSP which can do matrix and vector operations on variable bit length data.

    Making better Elbrus or other processors could be difficult though since the Elbrus-2SM is already a largish die in a 90nm process from Mikron. There is supposedly a mythical Elbrus-4SM in 65nm process from Mikron but I doubt it exists. Better processors would likely have to wait until Russia gets the capability to manufacture 28nm chips.

    The alternative would be to use stockpiled Elbrus-4S chips made at TSMC or something like that. They could also try to manufacture the 28nm chips abroad in a friendly country. But I kind of doubt they will do that. There is little point anyways.

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    Post  Scorpius Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:57 am

    lancelot wrote:The Su-57 has more advanced and modern electronics than the current Block 3 F-35. Let alone the pathetically outdated F-22.
    The avionics are powered by Elbrus-2SM processors and NeuroMatrix AI accelerators. The networking is done with fiber optics. The radar uses second generation gallium arsenide elements.

    The only thing you could say it currently lacks vs the F-35 is the integrated virtual reality helmet. But they are working on one. As is the cockpit is way more advanced than the F-22's.


    Here is information about the Su-57 BCVM, and there are more productive processors than the Elbrus-2SM:


    The IUS of the Su-57 aircraft includes two BCMS IMA BC connected to a single high-speed redundant network based on a Fibre Channel serial interface with a specially designed deterministic profile.

    Each BCVM IMA BC contains the following modules:

    - 2 data processor modules based on a multi-core processor;
    - a graphics controller module based on a multi-core processor and a graphics coprocessor;
    - I/O module based on a multi-core processor;
    - Fibre Channel Switch module;
    - 2 power supply modules;
    - a case with a cross-payment (CP).

    The following interfaces are supported for the interaction of the BCVM IMA BC with external avionics systems (avionics) of the aircraft:

    - multi-channel optical duplex Fiber Channel interface (24 channels, 1 Gbod);
    - output optical channels of graphic information Fibre Channel (2 channels, 1 Gbod);
    - optical input channels of graphic information Fibre Channel (3 channels, 1 Gbod);
    - RKIO according to GOST 18977 - 79 (ARINC - 429, 8 PRD/16 PRM);
    - PK according to GOST 18977 - 79 (16 PRD/24 PRM);
    - MKIO according to GOST P 52070-2003 (MIL-STD 1553V, 4 channels with reserve);
    - service bus based on the ARINC 825 interface.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3305002.html?amp=1

    In addition, it is indicated that a version with an Elbrus-4S processor has been created with a further transition to Elbrus-8SV processors
    https://red-army-1917.livejournal.com/53768.html

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    Post  lancelot Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:05 am

    The thing is the Elbrus-4S and Elbrus-8SV were made at TSMC in Taiwan. So I doubt they are using them in the military systems.
    From what I know those chips are only used in civilian or civilian government applications.

    The amount of produced Su-57s is small enough and uses so few of these chips that they could use available stockpiles of those chips to make aviation computers. But I kind of doubt that will happen.
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    Post  Swgman_BK Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:09 am

    No. The F-35 currently (Block 3) has a less powerful ICP than the Su-57's compute module. The F-35 uses PowerPC MPC7448 chips vs the Elbrus-2SM on the Su-57. The F-22 is even worse, it uses i960MX processors. This is supposed to change when Block 4 comes out. Whenever that does happen. wrote:

    I dont want to sound like I am doubting you but I doubt such info would be out.. Maybe on the F35 as it a multinational project but not the SU57.. I have never seen any mention OFFICIALLY of an Elbrus processor in the SU57. An elbrus 2SM would suggest a low frequency 2 core chip... Some other rumors say the 16C is going in the Su57.There are a whole lot of rumors..
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    Post  lancelot Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:16 am

    Swgman_BK wrote:I dont want to sound like I am doubting you but I doubt such info would be out.. Maybe on the F35 as it a multinational project but not the SU57.. I have never seen any mention OFFICIALLY of an Elbrus processor in the SU57. An elbrus 2SM would suggest a low frequency 2 core chip... Some other rumors say the 16C is going in the Su57.There are a whole lot of rumors..
    The flight computer has multiple boards. Each board has more than one processor chip. There are boards with dual processors of Elbrus-2SM type for example.
    I don't know why you are that shocked, the Elbrus processor is just used for high level application logic, the main compute units are the NeuroMatrix DSPs.

    Since the Elbrus is a VLIW processor just looking at the clockspeed is also a poor performance indicator. An Elbrus-2SM has 19.8 GIPS and 9.6 GFlops of 32-bit performance.

    Look at the specs for the processors used in the F-35 ICP:
       >2900 DMIPS, 1MB L2 Cache
       512MB DRAM, 256MB Flash
       128KB NOVRAM

    i.e. they aren't that good. Compare 2900 MIPS on this hunk of junk with 19800 MIPS on a single Elbrus-2SM dual core processor.

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    Post  Arrow Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:32 am

    NeuroMatrix DSPs Are there any "AI" elements in the Su-57? Algorithms based on neural networks?
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    Post  lancelot Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:43 am

    Arrow wrote:NeuroMatrix DSPs Are there any "AI" elements in the Su-57? Algorithms based on neural networks?
    There likely are. Even the Su-35 has algorithms to identify targets, classify them, and suggest courses of action to the pilot.

    The NeuroMatrix DSP does matrix and vector operations in variable length fixed point. With additional floating point vector unit. So it is well suited for implementing neural networks.

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    Post  sepheronx Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:36 pm

    Is the NeuroMatrix chip the Elvees one?

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