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    Talking bollocks thread #4

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:12 am

    I seem to remember the Soviets were using floating moorings where groups of ships could moor together at sea in the open ocean and transfer supplies and fuel and crew as well as weapons and ammo without having to stop at a port for instance.

    In mid ocean you could sail up in an oil carrying ship and perhaps supply some of the ships there with fuel oil and then move on... it was a handy way of servicing groups of ships in an area at once without having to chase each one down individually... and being in international waters you didn't need anyones permission.


    To our credit at least we weren't giving away free shit to any clown who said he liked us

    Was that the problem?

    I would think dry humping the leg of the country that bombed you is worse.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:46 am

    There is a reason the Russians paid the South Koreans to build their Zvezda shipyards in the far east for them... and they didn't just build the yards... they showed them how they build ships efficiently with new state of the art fabrication and design and development was all part of the sale...
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    Post  ALAMO Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:20 am

    x_54_u43 wrote:
    So by what metric is this statement based on?

    By any.
    They float 2-3rd place for a while, depending on how the contract dates are combined to make a comparison.
    A NEVA2021just ended in Peter 2 weeks ago, and some data was revealed there as well.
    They produce 230+ civil hulks at the moment, with the potential for a further 120 ...
    You really can't realize the scale of the upgrade of the Russian civil fleet, because it is hard to realize, to be honest.

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    Post  Sujoy Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:14 pm

    Alexander Lukin, one of Russia's leading China experts, argues that Beijing's growing assertiveness and heavy-handedness is a cause for serious concern in Russia

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0163660X.2021.1970904?scroll=top&needAccess=true

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    Post  Hole Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:34 pm

    BS
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:Was that the problem?...

    Yes Garry, when you routinely get ripped off and fucked over by some third world shitholes and you just let it happen even though you claim to be superpower then it's a problem as Soviets learned the hard way



    GarryB wrote:I would think dry humping the leg of the country that bombed you is worse.

    Do elaborate

    Also as always, New Zealand the personal property of the Royal family (regardless of what New Zealand say to themselves) have no grounds to complain about anything



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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:39 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Alexander Lukin, one of Russia's leading China experts, argues that Beijing's growing assertiveness and heavy-handedness is a cause for serious concern in Russia...

    Lukin is expert on precisely nothing, he has no clue about anything least of all China and is considered to be a joke by pretty much everyone

    Where do you dig out all these washed out nobodies?




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    Post  Mir Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:42 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    To our credit at least we weren't giving away free shit to any clown who said he liked us


    Bill and Boris were drinking buddies - what did you expect! Laughing
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    Post  Hole Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:57 pm

    I don´t care if Russia is 2nd or "just" 3rd because some debt-ridden chinese company ordered one more container ship that will sail half-empty between North-America and Europe for the rest of its life. The main point is that Russia doesn´t build just models that never materialize. A few years ago the Lider icebreaker was just a model, same for the North Pole scientific vessel or the Akademik Lomonossov floating NPP.

    By the way, Russia is in the Top 5 shipbuilding nations (let´s settle for this undisputed fact) without the Zvezda yard being finished. Or some other shipyards that are being modernized and even extended.

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    Post  miketheterrible Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:06 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:Alexander Lukin, one of Russia's leading China experts, argues that Beijing's growing assertiveness and heavy-handedness is a cause for serious concern in Russia...

    Lukin is expert on precisely nothing, he has no clue about anything least of all China and is considered to be a joke by pretty much everyone

    Where do you dig out all these washed out nobodies?





    He is Indian.  Thus he is being stupid for the sake of it cause "China".  Indians have an inferiority complex they need to get off of.

    Anyone and everyone is an expert these days.  Doesn't really equate to anything in reality.  He just selectively posts them because they have bad things to say about China.  It is the same in China and same in India about the others.  These people are rather dumb and incapable of actual critical thought.

    PS

    What does this have to do with Russia Economics thread? Can His post be moved to offtopic - talking bollocks please?

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    Post  Arrow Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:09 pm

    Hole wrote:
    By the way, Russia is in the Top 5 shipbuilding nations (let´s settle for this undisputed fact) without the Zvezda yard being finished. Or some other shipyards that are being modernized and even extended.

    When you add the military production of ships to that, it looks even more impressive. Since they are currently building about 70 warships. I'm not sure, but only China has more warship production right now.
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    Post  Hole Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:21 pm

    And that with an economy the size of Italy or Texas! Cool

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    Post  kvs Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:25 pm

    Hole wrote:And that with an economy the size of Italy or Texas! Cool

    A good example of how nominal value GDP comparisons are for morons.

    Also, the 2.5 PPP GDP scaling factor for Russia is useless since it is mostly fixed on consumer sector prices. Russian consumer
    prices are not that different from EU or North American ones. The real PPP factor is closer to 5 since large chunks of Russia's
    industrial sector and all of the associated sectors have prices much lower than in other developed economies. Russia's economy
    is much larger in physical terms and in terms of diversification than any of the common analysis attributes to it.

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    x_54_u43
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    Post  x_54_u43 Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:48 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    x_54_u43 wrote:
    So by what metric is this statement based on?

    By any.
    They float 2-3rd place for a while, depending on how the contract dates are combined to make a comparison.
    A NEVA2021just ended in Peter 2 weeks ago, and some data was revealed there as well.
    They produce 230+ civil hulks at the moment, with the potential for a further 120 ...
    You really can't realize the scale of the upgrade of the Russian civil fleet, because it is hard to realize, to be honest.

    I'm sorry but this is just funny, mind actually giving a concrete figure and source?

    I have yet to see one in this thread, and I very much doubt Russia will be in top 5 in terms of total tonnage output by year, which you know, is the actual figure that matters.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:18 am

    From the Washington Quarterly... not not particularly relevant to Russian economy general news.

    But the fundamental point is wrong anyway... Russia is not interested in a weak compliant China or a weak compliant India... China and India are partners and it is in Russian interests that they both develop and get strong and don't give in to western bullshit because the west wants to divide and conquer and they are trying to do this by pitting Russia against China against India.... that is where the Washington in this story comes in... interference and flame baiting to cause conflict to weaken everyone involved getting them fighting each other instead of working together and growing stronger than the west.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:38 am

    Yes Garry, when you routinely get ripped off and fucked over by some third world shitholes and you just let it happen even though you claim to be superpower then it's a problem as Soviets learned the hard way

    Yeah, because that is what Super power means... everyone thinks you are super and no one would try to rip you off or even oppose your view.

    Most of the west believes the west is actually a force for good in the world... is it such a shock that a few corrupt politicians in Russia were fooled into thinking America and the west was their friends... a lot of those problems Russia had in the 1990s they made themselves and it was always going to take time and the right person to fix that.

    What can I say... Russia got Putin... the Brits had May during their split with the EU and now they have Boris.... but everyone suffers at some time... the US had both Bushes and Bill and Barack and Donald for goodness sake... We've got horse face, but also no serious problems and nothing really worth fighting over.

    We actually have German companies coming over here wanting to use our abundant hydro electric capacity to make the best kind of hydrogen and I don't even know what colour it is... ironic, because the last hydro electric power station we built was criticised for being unnecessary and a huge white elephant...

    Do elaborate
    Also as always, New Zealand the personal property of the Royal family (regardless of what New Zealand say to themselves) have no grounds to complain about anything

    Ahh come on... either there is a CIA guy with a gun to your head, or you are sitting in a troll farm... it is quite common in some countries where they spend money on computers for schools and then over the holidays or even during school time they run international help desks or troll farms earning a bit of money on the side. Some schools even allowed students to book their computer suites for the evening for LAN games, but obviously the limitation there was lack of decent video cards in the computers so they were limited as to what sort of games they could host... most ended up just allowing the customers to bring their own computer to link to the network.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:26 am

    Tonnage shifts the bias to those producing oil tankers and gas carrying ships, but that is OK because Russia is now building such ships so its tonnage levels will be given a huge boost in recent years.

    A third world gas station that doesn't make anything shouldn't be in the top 100 ship making countries... that is what doesn't make anything means...
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:20 am

    The figures are already back there in the thread. Go back&check.

    Edit : here or in some parallel thread, can't remember now, but I was presenting those numbers from some article that I cant remember now Laughing

    And I have one more fun fact.
    As we are focusing on the Zvezda in Far Easy, hardly anyone noticed that there is actually a bigger shipyard constructed on the other edge of Russia - in Belokamenka, north of Murmansk. It will have two drydocks sized 415x175m, the biggest in Russia. Dethronizing Zvezda.
    Where is a catch?
    Well, this shipyard will mostly construct ships made of concrete.
    And we can discuss the "ship" term, as most of those will be floating factories anchored in the areas where they will need to construct a gas/oil production cluster.
    The overall production capacity of the complex will be 100 000 tons of steel and 180 000 m3 of concrete a year, making it actually bigger than Zvezda, still non-conventional
    And look how quietly it is being done Laughing

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    Post  x_54_u43 Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:47 am

    ALAMO wrote:The figures are already back there in the thread. Go back&check.

    Edit : here or in some parallel thread, can't remember now, but I was presenting those numbers from some article that I cant remember now Laughing

    And I have one more fun fact.
    As we are focusing on the Zvezda in Far Easy, hardly anyone noticed that there is actually a bigger shipyard constructed on the other edge of Russia - in Belokamenka, north of Murmansk. It will have two drydocks sized 415x175m, the biggest in Russia. Dethronizing Zvezda.  
    Where is a catch?
    Well, this shipyard will mostly construct ships made of concrete.
    And we can discuss the "ship" term, as most of those will be floating factories anchored in the areas where they will need to construct a gas/oil production cluster.
    The overall production capacity of the complex will be 100 000 tons of steel and 180 000 m3 of concrete a year, making it actually bigger than Zvezda, still non-conventional
    And look how quietly it is being done Laughing

    Feel free to locate these figures for me, you're the one presenting the claim. I'm quite confident that Russia isn't in the top 5 for tonnage. If they were, I doubt Rosatom and others would have to sign contracts with Turkish and Chinese yards for small icebreakers and mobile floating platforms.

    And Belokamenka can't really be considered a shipyard yet, because those two drydocks don't have a gate to them, it's just a wall of concrete and dirt that has to get demolished every time they want to float something out or empty out the water for new construction.

    Not only that, but the actual metalcutting and metalworking abilities meant for the steel structures on top of the floating concrete most certainly don't lend themselves to ship construction, as well as having most of the structures prebuilt and shipped in.

    They are literally just steel buildings placed on top of floating concrete, these yards have nothing to do with shipbuilding, although they are still impressive feats.


    GarryB wrote:Tonnage shifts the bias to those producing oil tankers and gas carrying ships, but that is OK because Russia is now building such ships so its tonnage levels will be given a huge boost in recent years.

    A third world gas station that doesn't make anything shouldn't be in the top 100 ship making countries... that is what doesn't make anything means...

    It doesn't shift the bias **** all, constructing large vessels is more difficult and indicative of a better shipbuilding industry. I also doubt there are even 100 major shipbuilding countries on Earth lmao.

    Even with Zvezda reaching full capacity, they will still need another yard to really start playing with the big leagues(which is why Rosatom is looking into having its own yard).
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:09 pm

    GarryB wrote:...Yeah, because that is what Super power means... everyone thinks you are super and no one would try to rip you off or even oppose your view....

    Again missing the point

    Getting ripped off was not a problem

    Letting it happen without retribution was (massive one at that)

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    Post  Scorpius Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:23 pm

    x_54_u43 wrote:
    ALAMO wrote:
    x_54_u43 wrote:
    So by what metric is this statement based on?

    By any.
    They float 2-3rd place for a while, depending on how the contract dates are combined to make a comparison.
    A NEVA2021just ended in Peter 2 weeks ago, and some data was revealed there as well.
    They produce 230+ civil hulks at the moment, with the potential for a further 120 ...
    You really can't realize the scale of the upgrade of the Russian civil fleet, because it is hard to realize, to be honest.

    I'm sorry but this is just funny, mind actually giving a concrete figure and source?

    I have yet to see one in this thread, and I very much doubt Russia will be in top 5 in terms of total tonnage output by year, which you know, is the actual figure that matters.

    In 2018, according to the Ministry of Industry and Trade, there were 170 ships under construction at Russian shipyards. The laying of 51 vessels took place, 90 vessels were handed over to customers.
    Currently (2019) there are 150 vessels in the order portfolio, which is 3% of the global order portfolio for ships.
    https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/26426.html


    The Russian shipbuilding and shipbuilding market has grown by 67% in value over the year (2020), to 230 billion rubles. The total tonnage increased by 59%, to 542 thousand tons. However, there is a decrease of 8% in units, in total 94 vessels (with a tonnage of more than 50 tons) were delivered to customers in 2020, and about 90 small vessels and boats (with a tonnage of less than 50 tons) were also built. Last year, the ZVEZDA Shipbuilding Complex (managed by a consortium of ROSNEFT, Rosneftegaz and Gazprombank) was particularly distinguished, which took first place in the rating of shipyards in terms of total tonnage and second place (after the Baltic Plant) in terms of the cost of ships delivered. For example, they handed over to Rosnefteflot in 2020 the Aframax head tanker Vladimir Monomakh with a deadweight of 114 thousand tons and a cost of about 31.3 billion rubles.
    At the same time, the number of delivered orders decreased in civil shipbuilding by almost 18%, to 62 units, and in military increased by 18%, to 32 ships. For example, sEvmash, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), handed over the nuclear submarine with ballistic missiles Prince Vladimir, Severnaya Verf (part of USC) handed over the corvette Gremyashchy and the frigate Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov, the Baltic Yantar (part of USC) handed over the large amphibious ship pYotr Morgunov to the fleet. In civil shipbuilding, dry cargo ships (17 units were built), barges (13 units) and special vessels of the service fleet are in the lead in terms of the number of ships delivered.
    https://zavodfoto.livejournal.com/6704805.html

    According to JSC "TSNIIMF", according to the transport strategy of the Russian Federation for the period up to 2036, in the period from 2020 to 2024, it is planned to build 157 vessels with a total deadweight of 3.5 million tons. Including 36 sea vessels, 95 river-sea commercial vessels and 26 passenger vessels.
    https://portnews.ru/news/306885/


    As of the end of the first quarter of 2021, at the largest Russian shipbuilding enterprises (included in the register "Shipbuilding: shipyards and Design companies. Results of 2020") construction of about 500 ships and vessels continues. The total volume of ships and vessels under construction and contracted exceeds 2.8 trillion rubles, and the total tonnage is more than 7.4 million tons (translator's note: this means that the average tonnage of EACH of the 500 ships under construction is 14,800 tons, that is, approximately corresponds to a Zumwalt-type destroyer - the data is just for understanding the scale of construction, does not correspond to real statistics). In the future, until 2025, in the field of civil shipbuilding, the priority areas of development are the large-tonnage tanker fleet (75% of the total tonnage), the fishing fleet (5%) and the icebreaker fleet (3%), and in the field of military shipbuilding – the construction of nuclear and diesel submarines (4%).
    https://infoline.spb.ru/news/index.php?news=208026

    Are these figures and sources enough for you, or do you need more?

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:37 pm

    This is gaining such momentum, that naysayers will stay behind just because they are lazy by definition.

    By the way ... :

    https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/arctic-lng/2021/05/worlds-largest-lng-construction-yard-taking-shape-belokamenka

    Barents Observer is the last considered objective, and the article is a rip-off of something from 2017, still, they cant hide being impressed.
    Want to know what is really impressive?
    A 2.7 km waterfront. A base to anchor&finish the construction of vessels.
    Divide that by let's say 350m, if you want to equip a carrier there Laughing
    Still, someone would consider that small in scale, irrelevant, and outdated Laughing Laughing Laughing *

    * go and check US share in worldwide shipbuilding Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

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    Post  x_54_u43 Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:55 pm

    Scorpius wrote:In 2018, according to the Ministry of Industry and Trade, there were 170 ships under construction at Russian shipyards. The laying of 51 vessels took place, 90 vessels were handed over to customers.
    Currently (2019) there are 150 vessels in the order portfolio, which is 3% of the global order portfolio for ships.
    https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/26426.html

    So now apparently tiny river vessels are equivalent to massive cargo carriers and tankers? Yeah, Russia produces a bunch of 8k tonne Volga cargo carriers, great for its internal market, not at all impressive by global shipbuilding standards.

    I also think it's funny that 3 percent is somehow supposed to be impressive?

    Scorpius wrote:The Russian shipbuilding and shipbuilding market has grown by 67% in value over the year (2020), to 230 billion rubles. The total tonnage increased by 59%, to 542 thousand tons. However, there is a decrease of 8% in units, in total 94 vessels (with a tonnage of more than 50 tons) were delivered to customers in 2020, and about 90 small vessels and boats (with a tonnage of less than 50 tons) were also built. Last year, the ZVEZDA Shipbuilding Complex (managed by a consortium of ROSNEFT, Rosneftegaz and Gazprombank) was particularly distinguished, which took first place in the rating of shipyards in terms of total tonnage and second place (after the Baltic Plant) in terms of the cost of ships delivered. For example, they handed over to Rosnefteflot in 2020 the Aframax head tanker Vladimir Monomakh with a deadweight of 114 thousand tons and a cost of about 31.3 billion rubles.
    At the same time, the number of delivered orders decreased in civil shipbuilding by almost 18%, to 62 units, and in military increased by 18%, to 32 ships. For example, sEvmash, part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), handed over the nuclear submarine with ballistic missiles Prince Vladimir, Severnaya Verf (part of USC) handed over the corvette Gremyashchy and the frigate Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov, the Baltic Yantar (part of USC) handed over the large amphibious ship pYotr Morgunov to the fleet. In civil shipbuilding, dry cargo ships (17 units were built), barges (13 units) and special vessels of the service fleet are in the lead in terms of the number of ships delivered.

    Again, these statistics don't really show what you want them to. Tonnage on order is a nice figure, but all it shows is simply what you've ordered, not what you are actually producing, and Russia gets some "padding" because it's shipyards take so long to construct certain vessels that the total tonnage builds up.

    It's also very funny that Vladimir Monomakh is counted here as a big thing, you do realize almost the entirety of the vessel was constructed in South Korea, with just the nose put on at Zvezda? The shipyard itself isn't finished, and only has half the personnel it desires, 3.5k/7k. Future ships will have a higher percentage of domestic production but it is still beginning for Zvezda. So again, there is very fanciful statistics counting here.

    Scorpius wrote:According to JSC "TSNIIMF", according to the transport strategy of the Russian Federation for the period up to 2036, in the period from 2020 to 2024, it is planned to build 157 vessels with a total deadweight of 3.5 million tons. Including 36 sea vessels, 95 river-sea commercial vessels and 26 passenger vessels.

    If you're really trying to prove here that Russia is somehow overtaking other countries and becoming a major shipbuilder, this is a very funny statistic to put up. I mean, river vessels? It's nice that they are being produced but they aren't the zenith of shipbuilding.

    I mean, we can take Japan here, which some people have hilariously deluded themselves into thinking that Russia has overtaken Japan in shipbuilding, has in 2019 ALONE, not FOUR  years, just ONE year, DELIVERED, not PLANNED, 24 million deadweight tons.

    And if you want to take order book into consideration, then considering Europe, Russia is behind Italy, France, and Germany.  But is the leader in deadweight(1.65m deadweight). But it is so it is neither leader in orderbook(where European yards producing smaller but higher value vessels lead the top of the boards), nor a leader in deadweight, where it is utterly DWARFED by the Asian shipyards.

    I honestly cannot even begin to fathom how some people got it into their heads that Russia had overtaken Japan, much less South Korea. It's utterly delusional and embarrassing.

    You can check the figures for yourself, feel free to contest if you like, though make sure to actually have actual concrete production figures instead of conjecture.    https://www.brsbrokers.com/assets/review_splits/BRS_Review_2020_Shipbuilding.pdf

    Scorpius wrote:As of the end of the first quarter of 2021, at the largest Russian shipbuilding enterprises (included in the register "Shipbuilding: shipyards and Design companies. Results of 2020") construction of about 500 ships and vessels continues. The total volume of ships and vessels under construction and contracted exceeds 2.8 trillion rubles, and the total tonnage is more than 7.4 million tons (translator's note: this means that the average tonnage of EACH of the 500 ships under construction is 14,800 tons, that is, approximately corresponds to a Zumwalt-type destroyer - the data is just for understanding the scale of construction, does not correspond to real statistics). In the future, until 2025, in the field of civil shipbuilding, the priority areas of development are the large-tonnage tanker fleet (75% of the total tonnage), the fishing fleet (5%) and the icebreaker fleet (3%), and in the field of military shipbuilding – the construction of nuclear and diesel submarines (4%).
    https://infoline.spb.ru/news/index.php?news=208026

    Again, total amount of tonnage currently under construction is nice, but padded out because of how long it takes Russian shipyards, both military and civilian, to actually complete orders, they get built up and you come to this nice large figure but the actual amount of ships delivered is tiny, by any metric you care to consider. It is why people are so fed up with United Shipbuilding Corporation and their grandiose claims, they take so long to deliver on the lead vessel, that the second and even third ship in the class are often also close to completion, and then counted as if USC produced and delivered three vessels in one year or such. It is precisely what happened with Yasen class, which is only finally just now having it's massive build times come down.

    Scorpius wrote:Are these figures and sources enough for you, or do you need more?

    No, they really fucking aren't, because nothing of what you showed me actually states by what metric Russia has somehow become this major shipbuiding power.

    I asked VERY simply, what actual metric, in COMPARISON to other countries, has Russia overtaken the premier mass shipbuilders such as Japan, as other people have stated in this thread (including, hiliariously, PapaDragon). In total deadweight, it is dwarfed by the China, South Korea, and Japan. By gross tonnage, which best measures who is building high value vessels, then it is behind Italy, France, and Germany, though it is doing very well for itself there, as well as leading in European deadweight(though this is not much of a prize).

    So, I will ask again, by what metric has Russia become a premier shipbuilding power in comparison with the top countries? By what metric has it become second largest producer of civilian cargo ships in the world, as Hole has stated? I remind you, that a river cargo transporter cannot be counted the same as a Aframax carrier, because it is just stupid to do so.

    Alamo wrote:This is gaining such momentum, that naysayers will stay behind just because they are lazy by definition.

    By the way ... :

    https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/arctic-lng/2021/05/worlds-largest-lng-construction-yard-taking-shape-belokamenka

    Barents Observer is the last considered objective, and the article is a rip-off of something from 2017, still, they cant hide being impressed.
    Want to know what is really impressive?
    A 2.7 km waterfront. A base to anchor&finish the construction of vessels.
    Divide that by let's say 350m, if you want to equip a carrier there Laughing
    Still, someone would consider that small in scale, irrelevant, and outdated Laughing Laughing Laughing *

    * go and check US share in worldwide shipbuilding Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

    A long strip of concrete that is used as a mooring area to outfit floating vessels, or in this case, floating structures is supposed to impress others?

    I'm also amused by the mentioning of aircraft carriers, what makes you think the workers there have the skill to outfit carriers there?

    I have said this before and I will say it again, Belokamenka is a shipyard in name only, it produces ZERO ships, only floating concrete structures, and doesn't have the ability to produce ships, for one, it doesn't even have a floating gate, you literally have to demolish it's retaining wall in order to let water in and float out any objects. Impressive marine engineering, but it cannot be called shipbuilding. They aren't ships.

    Also, everyone knows good and well that US no longer competes in civil shipbuilding, but why don't we compare U.S. military shipbuilding with Russian? You won't like the experience, and before anyone gets salty with me, Scorpius himself in his own statistics mentioned military vessels, so why not compare?
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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:21 am

    The main problem we have here is the dynamics of these changes.
    Back in 2015, hardly anyone would believe that there will be a shipyard in Russia with the same level of effectiveness as Korean ones.
    And the Russia position here is hiking crazy.
    The No3 is from the last year - in April 2020 they secured 7 contracts with 65k CGT, followed by Japan with 2 orders for 55k CGT.
    Sure it has a propaganda background but shows us some perspective either.
    The report you are presenting is great, very informative, still based on the hard data backing to 2019.
    2020 is a worldwide earthquake for shipbuilding and the marine industry as a whole. We can't judge the results yet I guess because these are very unstable.
    For example, the market share of Korea was jumping like crazy, in some months the Chinese order line was 4x bigger.
    Koreans can't afford the subsidies the Chinese government grants to its fleet operators as a pandemic relief package.
    Russian maritime business is booming, financed&fueled by fossil extraction, north route transportation, and a fishing&cargo fleet renewal.
    Don't understand why you want to exclude the river fleet from this quotation, as they operate ships as big as 8k DWT. I live in a city where a sea harbor is accessed by the river waterline, I can touch a big bulk carrier each time I take a boat & go fishing. They are not bigger than Volga-Don Max, and Russian shipyards are building those in dozens.
    A good share of marine transportation in Europe is being made with smaller & universal ships, barges, capable of anchoring in the smaller river harbors. Russian sweet water cargo fleet is giant and is just the same customer as any other.
    One of the factors you don't consider is the fact that not further than 6 years ago, 70+% of Russian ship orders used to be located in Korea.
    I can't remember the numbers in detail, but it was a huge dependency, Russian shipyards provided only about 20% of the fleet, imagine that.
    Now the ratios are turning or turned already.
    Sure the Koreans will build some stuff for them, just the same way as Turkey.
    Back in the SU times, half of Europe worked for them. Poland, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Romania, Finland, GDR - they all constructed ships for the Soviet Union.
    Ships. Not sections, or hulks.
    Specialized to the level, where Soviet yards had no experience in some classes, granting all it's construction to its satellites.
    Yes, the Zvezda is not running a full capacity, but it would be honest to add, that it is 2 or 3 years ahead of schedule, and lacking some social infrastructure to host additional workers, to begin with. They are ahead of the schedule for equipment deliveries, and ahead of schedule for assisting the industry that is being built bottom-up. In Soviet times, again, half of Europe was cooperative with them. Bulgaria provided steel sheets, and what is funny, those were non-standard and were used for constructing the river fleet mostly.
    Poland supplied sanitary blocks, HVAC units, some fire fighting stations, sewage systems, engines and shafts.
    GDR provided navigation equipment, some electronics, tons of cables, steering.
    I can add to that list to the infinity ...
    They will finish that in next 2-3 years and will run at full, 330kt capacity.
    Yes, the facility next to Murmansk is not a classical shipyard, and this is what I have said.
    But you know what?
    Those hulks&platforms they are making would have to be constructed at the regular shipyards if not there...
    They have no space left, even considering the fact that the production output is hiking year on year.
    That is why they need to construct another multi-billion facility.
    Never heard of a drydock that you need to deconstruct to flood, it is very interesting.
    The issue might be that any kind of lock requires some additional space, and maybe it can't open for a full 170+ m width? scratch
    While the hulks they will construct there might be as huge.
    Still, don't buy that, I must study
    And if you want to add navy shipbuilding here, sure we can compare.
    With 70 ships in the pipeline, including 15 atomic subs, Russkies have no need to be ashamed by the US.
    Hell, they look good even if you compare them to the Chinese. Shocked
    And yes, I am impressed just by looking at the construction sites. I am astonished by 2.7km pier, and admire the pure industrial look & compactness of the newly erected shipyards. Maybe because I can compare those with several I used to work in, and several others all over Europe I used to visit when I was in that business.
    And seeing how this business changed.
    Call me nostalgic if you want.

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    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:24 am

    Without retribution... I would say turning democracy into a dirty word in Russia will be enough to prevent Russia ever becoming subservient to the US the way Australia and Canada and New Zealand and the UK and lots of other countries are.... isolating the US from the resources of Russia alone will stunt their growth and potential for recovery from the shit hole they have dug for themselves...

    Pushing China and Russia together is the wests greatest mistake and I think Biden is currently trying to reverse that by sending Nuland to Russia to probably throw Ukraine and the Kurds under the bus in the hope of getting Putin to play ball against China... but the situation in Ukraine is terrible for Ukrainian people... not so bad for Russia... the situation in Syria is not so great for the Kurds, but again... not so bad for Russia... they can be patient in both regions because they are not blowing their budget in either place, while relations with China are rather better than they have ever been with the US and are getting to the point where they are as good as they were with the EU when they were cooperating on stuff.

    They were in no position to get revenge except petty spiteful little stuff the US would not have noticed and the reactions might have been dire... kicking Russia out of everything all at once would have been very damaging and seriously reduced interest in cooperating with them for the rest of the planet.

    Now they are stronger... getting revenge now would just undo a lot of what they have achieved, but now they can choose not to cooperate with the west and either go it alone or with China or other countries of their choice... the US loves to be part of everything... so they can control it....

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