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    Talking bollocks thread #4

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:36 am

    GarryB wrote:Without retribution... I would say turning democracy into a dirty word in Russia will be enough to prevent Russia ever becoming subservient to the US the way Australia and Canada and New Zealand and the UK and lots of other countries are.... isolating the US from the resources of Russia alone will stunt their growth and potential for recovery from the shit hole they have dug for themselves...

    Pushing China and Russia together is the wests greatest mistake and I think Biden is currently trying to reverse that by sending Nuland to Russia to probably throw Ukraine and the Kurds under the bus in the hope of getting Putin to play ball against China... but the situation in Ukraine is terrible for Ukrainian people... not so bad for Russia... the situation in Syria is not so great for the Kurds, but again... not so bad for Russia... they can be patient in both regions because they are not blowing their budget in either place, while relations with China are rather better than they have ever been with the US and are getting to the point where they are as good as they were with the EU when they were cooperating on stuff.

    They were in no position to get revenge except petty spiteful little stuff the US would not have noticed and the reactions might have been dire... kicking Russia out of everything all at once would have been very damaging and seriously reduced interest in cooperating with them for the rest of the planet.

    Now they are stronger... getting revenge now would just undo a lot of what they have achieved, but now they can choose not to cooperate with the west and either go it alone or with China or other countries of their choice... the US loves to be part of everything... so they can control it....

    And what does any of this have to do with the fact that USSR was oversized bitch?

    USSR got ripped off, USSR should have slit some throats

    They didn't and they got fucked for it as bitches always do



    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:15 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Where do you dig out all these washed out nobodies?
    Found it on Artyom Lukin's twitter page. He is a IR scholar at Far Eastern Federal University.

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:22 am

    I have yet to see one in this thread, and I very much doubt Russia will be in top 5 in terms of total tonnage output by year, which you know, is the actual figure that matters.

    So tonnage is the only actual figure that matters....

    So now apparently tiny river vessels are equivalent to massive cargo carriers and tankers? Yeah, Russia produces a bunch of 8k tonne Volga cargo carriers, great for its internal market, not at all impressive by global shipbuilding standards.

    But now tonnage is not enough and you want... what... super CVNs and massive cruise ships because actual tonnage means nothing at all now?

    Tonnage on order is a nice figure, but all it shows is simply what you've ordered, not what you are actually producing, and Russia gets some "padding" because it's shipyards take so long to construct certain vessels that the total tonnage builds up.

    They are giving orders to other countries because their order books are presumably full, and they get new orders year on year.... would that happen if they were not producing anything and orders were just building up...

    6 years ago they couldn't make anything at all... the progress is astounding... and continuing to improve, but keep up the russophobic bullshit.

    If you're really trying to prove here that Russia is somehow overtaking other countries and becoming a major shipbuilder, this is a very funny statistic to put up. I mean, river vessels? It's nice that they are being produced but they aren't the zenith of shipbuilding.

    Their production is increasing rapidly.... I am sure British ship production is also increasing massively... and French ship building... and Australian ship building, but Russian production is increasing whether you like to admit that or not.

    I honestly cannot even begin to fathom how some people got it into their heads that Russia had overtaken Japan, much less South Korea. It's utterly delusional and embarrassing.

    Can't fathom why you are so butthurt at an off the cuff comment that Russian shipbuilding is going well.


    No, they really fucking aren't, because nothing of what you showed me actually states by what metric Russia has somehow become this major shipbuiding power.

    How many SSBNs does South Korea or Europe or Japan make?

    How many times can South Korea or Europe or Japan destroy the entire planet?

    South Korea and Europe and Japan are peons... puppet states that bow and scrape to the US... who cares how much tonnage they build.

    Russia has a lot of internal rivers and canals... of course they are going to build a lot of such vessel types... why are you so butt hurt about it?


    So, I will ask again, by what metric has Russia become a premier shipbuilding power in comparison with the top countries?

    By the metric that their Corvettes are better armed than British destroyers and US destroyers, and they don't have washington telling them what they can or cannot do in their own country.

    I remind you, that a river cargo transporter cannot be counted the same as a Aframax carrier, because it is just stupid to do so.

    A river cargo transporter is more value to Russia than an Aframax carrier.


    I'm also amused by the mentioning of aircraft carriers, what makes you think the workers there have the skill to outfit carriers there?

    Well looking at the Ford helicopter barge... currently the bar to measure is set exceptionally low at the moment.

    Also, everyone knows good and well that US no longer competes in civil shipbuilding, but why don't we compare U.S. military shipbuilding with Russian? You won't like the experience, and before anyone gets salty with me, Scorpius himself in his own statistics mentioned military vessels, so why not compare?

    Because LCS and Zumwalt and Ford and substandard subs made of substandard steel means what they produce is of no value at all.... how could it be compared?

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    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:23 am

    miketheterrible wrote:He is Indian.  Thus he is being stupid for the sake of it cause "China".  Indians have an inferiority complex they need to get off of.
    He is Indian, he is stupid, like most people of colour with an inferiority chip on his shoulder and clearly his actions suggest he intends to pit Russia against China.

    Which is why I've been advocating for quite sometime that this total rascal and similar third world posters like him be banned ASAP. But moderators want to set the bar low.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:04 pm

    He clearly drinks the US cool aide... the US has to be in charge and be a total bastard to retain control because if they don't someone else will and of course it is in everyones interests to keep the US in charge because if you think they are a bunch of censored  imagine what China or Russia or India would be like...

    But of course that is bullshit... China does not want Americans crown and neither does Russia... they are not interested in being the worlds police or bullying other countries to conform to their world view and morals and ethics... that is America...

    Which is why I've been advocating for quite sometime that this total rascal and similar third world posters like him be banned ASAP. But moderators want to set the bar low.

    Your narrow pro white europe centric view of the world puts you lower on the bar than any person of colour you might want banned... at least they are not dumb enough to think skin colour is any reflection of intelligence.

    You are hard core pro white european... ignoring the fact that the white european countries you hold in such high regard don't consider Russians to be European, which I why Putin is looking at a Eurasian format going forward, and I think Russia will be much better off for him doing that.

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:29 pm

    The US can´t compete in civilian shipbuilding but the workers there are so skilled that they can fit out an aircraft carrier. Laughing
    But Russians are to dumb for that, of course. Because a carrier is much more complicated then a nuclear sub with hypersonic missiles. Or an LNG tanker. Rolling Eyes

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    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:at least they are not dumb enough to think skin colour is any reflection of intelligence.
    That's why they are dumb. Because all the major inventions in the world take place in predominantly White countries. Had these dark skinned people been intelligent they would have been able to make that connection between skin colour and intelligence.

    Of course there are dumb White European countries as well like Sweden. Once it was a predominantly White Christian country, but then they opened their doors to every single dark skinned sodomite from Asia and Africa. Now look at the shithole that it has become. Whites are a minority in most cities across Sweden. By 2030 Whites in Sweden will become a minority.

    If Russia is not careful enough, that's going to be our future as well.

    GarryB wrote:You are hard core pro white european... ignoring the fact that the white european countries you hold in such high regard don't consider Russians to be European, which I why Putin is looking at a Eurasian format going forward, and I think Russia will be much better off for him doing that.
    Are you New Zealanders considered Europeans? Are your Aussie cousins considered Europeans? Russians are considered Whites in every country including in the U.S and E.U.

    And why would you even think that Russians are not considered Europeans? How else do you think we participate in European events like Euro Cup, UEFA Cup where only European countries are allowed to participate.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:29 pm

    Hole wrote:The US can´t compete in civilian shipbuilding but the workers there are so skilled that they can fit out an aircraft carrier. Laughing
    But Russians are to dumb for that, of course. Because a carrier is much more complicated then a nuclear sub with hypersonic missiles. Or an LNG tanker. Rolling Eyes

    More effort spent on some butthurt Ukr trolling.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:40 pm

    Well, guys, our friend has a valid point.
    Yes, there are some statements in media that Russia is No3 or even No2 in the business, but in a wide view, it is propaganda.
    They might sign more contracts in a quarter, or a specified month, comparing to Japan.
    Or they can order more pieces, applying same methodology, than South Korea.
    Or even they can accumulate more pieces in the contracts ...
    But it does not mean that for real.
    At the end of a day, China will end up with almost 50% of world's market, assisted by Korea with 30-40% share, and Japan with 15-20.
    Russia's share will be a fraction of that.
    But hey, it really does not matter.
    They are building them for their own usage, with their own money.
    Shipbuilding is one of the most complicated businesses, and brings one of the highest added value rates, plus contributes extremely to the economy as a whole.
    Even those numbers are showing unimaginable revival, or even more.
    I would call that resurrection on steroids.
    First of all, it is a surprise and a wonder itself, that they are even there.
    Few years ago, they constructed some shitty and capitalized projects heritaged from the SU.
    And the SU was not a shipbuilding giant, to put it mildly.
    They had no skills&know-how to build a waste range of auxiliary shps for the navy, they needed to locate icebreakers construction to Finland, they located the fishing fleet production in Poland and GDR. Poland used to build bulk carriers for them, tankers ...
    Now, they are capable to make LNG carriers, and that is really something, believe me.
    If you add the ice-class to that - those ships are among the most complicated to design, construct and build. Actually, the whole offshore sector is very demanding and technology-rich.
    This is why the results here are extremely interesting.
    We can read about delays of the orders and plans, but anyone who worked in this business knows that a delay is something usuall.
    If the production is booming, tons of shortages appear.
    If the revival of the business is so extreme, and the allocations are so huge, there is no suprice that you can run out of steel. Or pipes. Or engines. Or cables. Or valves. Add a pandemics to that that have shredded the logistics on the whole planet, and I am actually quite surprised that they are still capable of building with such momentum.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:50 pm

    Obscure metrics make for an obscure discussion. I am tired of moving goal post arguments. The butthurt Ukr can sod off.

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    Post  x_54_u43 Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:43 pm

    So tonnage is the only actual figure that matters....

    In essence, yes Garry, that's how people measure output and capability of shipbuilding industry of other countries, how much total deadweight of vessels are DELIVERED per year, or gross tons, if you want to adjust for complexity and cost of vessels, stuff like cruise liners are vastly more expensive to construct compared to tankers despite being vastly lighter. Asia leads in deadweight, Europe in gross tons. Russia in neither.


    But now tonnage is not enough and you want... what... super CVNs and massive cruise ships because actual tonnage means nothing at all now?

    Did you even read what I wrote? Constructing an amount of small river barges, summing the amount as X amount of ships and comparing it to others doesn't work because a river barge is not the same in weight or complexity as an Aframax tanker, or cruise ship, or other large vessels that are the specialty of Asian yards like Japanese ones that people have gotten into their heads to compare to.


    They are giving orders to other countries because their order books are presumably full, and they get new orders year on year.... would that happen if they were not producing anything and orders were just building up...

    6 years ago they couldn't make anything at all... the progress is astounding... and continuing to improve, but keep up the russophobic bullshit.

    They are giving orders to other countries because Russian yards cannot complete orders within allotted deadlines and budgets, because most Russian yards are old and out of date, both in machine tooling, jigs, cranes, and construction method, lack of personnel, and many more reasons. They are also stuffed to the brim with orders and have no realistic way of completing anymore, mainly because of the long construction times taking up more capacity than what is considered normal.

    But of course continue whining, any actual realistic criticism that interrupts the delusions here on this forum is considered russophobic bullshit lmao, truth hurts I guess.

    Their production is increasing rapidly.... I am sure British ship production is also increasing massively... and French ship building... and Australian ship building, but Russian production is increasing whether you like to admit that or not.

    I don't have any problem talking about the leaps and bounds made by Russian shipbuilding over the past decade, I am happy about it, but don't even try to spin it as Russia becoming a premier shipbuilding power by military or civil standard, Russia has a long way to go.


    Can't fathom why you are so butthurt at an off the cuff comment that Russian shipbuilding is going well.

    LMAO, off the cuff? People were here going on about Russia becoming second or third in shipbuilding with a straight face, butthurt that the reality falls short of these delusions?

    How many SSBNs does South Korea or Europe or Japan make?

    How many times can South Korea or Europe or Japan destroy the entire planet?

    South Korea and Europe and Japan are peons... puppet states that bow and scrape to the US... who cares how much tonnage they build.

    Russia has a lot of internal rivers and canals... of course they are going to build a lot of such vessel types... why are you so butt hurt about it?

    So again, no actual metric by how Russia has surpassed South Korea or Japan in civil shipbuilding? Just more bullshit with no actual facts, meaning, or logic.

    "who cares how much tonnage they build", you guys were literally wanking it over how Russia has surpassed them, when the actual facts come out, suddenly it doesn't matter? LMAO.

    And again, I have zero issue with Russia building it's domestic fleet, but don't portray constructing river barges as being equal to constructing Aframax tankers and Maersk type cargo vessels, because it just fucking isn't.

    By the metric that their Corvettes are better armed than British destroyers and US destroyers, and they don't have washington telling them what they can or cannot do in their own country.

    LMFAO!!!!!

    So no actual metrics then on civil shipbuilding? This is how this whole fiasco started Garry, put up or shut up.

    A river cargo transporter is more value to Russia than an Aframax carrier.

    LOL!!!!!!! So no metrics then on civil shipbuilding compared to South Korea or Japan? That's a lot of value to this discussion right now.

    I've provided, now your turn(and others).

    Well looking at the Ford helicopter barge... currently the bar to measure is set exceptionally low at the moment.

    Considering the amount of deaths, fires, and other accidents Adm Kuz has gone through, Russia cannot even meet this bar then.

    I'm also amused, Ford class has nothing to do with Belokamenka Shipyard, the workers there are trained to construct LNG platforms and install equipment there, what skill do they have that could outfit a Russian CVN?

    Because LCS and Zumwalt and Ford and substandard subs made of substandard steel means what they produce is of no value at all.... how could it be compared?

    Sinking its own floating dock, multiple fires, Losharik submarine disaster, the sinking of an intelligence vessel in the bosphorus, yeah I would really not try to compare here.

    I'm aware of the Virginia steel issue, mind telling me where and how LCS and Ford have these issues?

    I am also amused with you bringing up Zumwalt, the program is considered a failure rightly by Americans, but construction of three surface combatants with the weight of 17k tons is most certainly beyond Russian means currently, Russia only managed to put to water three Gorshkov frigates for now, I certainly would not try to be comparing American military shipbuilding to Russian one.

    kvs wrote:Obscure metrics make for an obscure discussion. I am tired of moving goal post arguments. The butthurt Ukr can sod off.

    You're more than free to provide your own lmao, but I am noting that no one actually is, maybe it's because Russia hasn't exceeded South Korea or Japan shipbuilding industries, or Europe's for that matter.

    Again, I asked once and I will ask again:

    Provide metrics that compare Russian shipbuilding to the rest of the world, and we can actually figure out where Russia stands in this regard.
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:13 pm

    You are arguing for nothing.
    They can be considered "No2, No3" only in some very carefully masterminded news, and most of them are pure propaganda or marketing.
    There is no chance that the whole of Europe will catch the Chinese.
    But ... we can consider Russia as a European ship constructing capable country, and the results are getting more and more interesting.
    They have already bypassed the known EU naval industry hubs, being equal to Italy I believe.
    Italy is a solo play of Fincantieri, and it has a momentum building ... passenger liners.
    And they are really huge, both historically and technically.
    The connection of Italy and Russia for shipbuilding cooperation dates back to XIX century.
    If you want to check that in detail, go for pre-IIWW cooperation, when Italy was a partner in constructing the Soviet navy.
    Russia's share ic constantly increasing, that is a fact.
    There are some periods when they secure a portfolio functionally bigger than Japan - and that is something unimaginable ... 5 years ago?
    3 years ago only?!? Hell, 2 years ago!!
    Only fossil-driven orders makes hundreds of hulks needed, and most of them will be built in Russia.
    That is something that constitutes a path of further development.
    They are constructing more and more demanding vessels, with the world's best standards of marine shipbuilding.
    Investing wisely in really serious infrastructure and supply chain.
    Reached the most demanding share, that is offshore.
    There is only one part of this business with bigger added value, which is huge passenger cruisers.
    They don't compete for that piece of cake at the moment, because hardly any Russian operator is using those.
    But last time I have checked, they already started luxury river passenger cruisers.
    Sure those are 5-10x smaller, but this is just a beginning.
    They could not build an Arc7 Aframax LNG tanker 5 years ago only, and now floating them one by one ...

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    Post  Scorpius Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:22 pm

    It is quite tedious to observe the requirements for providing numbers when all the numbers have already been provided.

    Oh, yes- those little riverboats:
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    So small. Such river. So simple.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:38 pm

    A river boat is only 1st and 2nd scratch
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:38 am

    jhelb wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:He is Indian.  Thus he is being stupid for the sake of it cause "China".  Indians have an inferiority complex they need to get off of.
    He is Indian, he is stupid, like most people of colour with an inferiority chip on his shoulder and clearly his actions suggest he intends to pit Russia against China.

    Chinese are also people of color

    And unless you’re from West Europe then you are one as well  


    jhelb wrote:...Which is why I've been advocating for quite sometime that this total rascal and similar third world posters like him be banned ASAP. But moderators want to set the bar low.

    You are here so the bar is already low

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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:30 am

    There are smart people and there are dumb people... but smart people are not always right, though when they are not sure they usually keep their mouths shut, whereas dumb people will just keep talking after they realise they are wrong...

    The EU and HATO have not plans for Russia to ever join... would not make sense if they considered Russia European.

    Russia already offered a pan Eurasian continent that spans most of the globe and the west has repeatedly rejected that.

    Look at EU reaction to Russian interests in Africa... they are essentially saying that Russia and China should stay out of their africa... Russia is no more part of Europe as it is part of China, but China don't judge you like the europeans do.

    It is funny that you see Indians with their tails wagging trying to impress Britain and the West but you don't see the same behaviour in your own actions... reminds me of Navalny... a racist not realising the groups he is appealing to try to be part of see him as coloured too... really sad.
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    Post  jhelb Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:50 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Chinese are also people of color

    And unless you’re from West Europe then you are one as well  
    Yeah right, Slavs are not White but people of colour.

    Were you born an idiot or did you acquire these traits in your lifetime?
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    Post  Singular_Transform Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:38 am

    lyle6 wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    USSR collapse happened because of inside shit. Not because of USA.

    Yelstin sold an empty Russia to west but Putin solve that quickly. USA gained nothing from the 90s Russia.

    The other countries you mentionned were basically destroyed by direct US interventions, even if for most they were their friends.

    I guess the tip should be "don't ever be US friend". Even one of their top guy said something like that "being US enemy is dangerous, being its friend is fatal".
    The USSR was allowed to implode because the technological advancements of the digital revolution have rendered mass mobilization armies obsolete.

    Reduced manpower needs means the resource draining provinces are let go, sacrificed so that much of the energy revenues would be devoted entirely to the modernization of the metropole and her armed forces.

    In particular, the warsaw pact was dissolved to make way for the economic relationship between Europe's industrial powers which would supply much of the needed technology and funding necessary to complete that modernization.

    Sometimes for the empire to survive you have to split it. The Eastern Roman empire outlasted the Western one by nearly a millenium, and if it weren't for some horrible bad luck, would have regained the Western part at some point.


    Wow, it is completly pointless and absolute rubish analysis, sorry my wording.


    And has no relationship with the reality. : D
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    Post  Arrow Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:52 am



     I certainly would not try to be comparing American military shipbuilding to Russian one. wrote:



    Why ?Is it worth comparing.  Let's take a look at the submarines.  The US only builds Virginia. Virginia.  This is a much poorer and cheaper version of Seawolf.  Russia builds Yasen M-class ships that cannot even be compared to Virginia.  They are much better and better armed.  They are still building a modern SSBN project 955A and already thinking about another modification.  They continue to build completely new carriers for Poseidon drones.  Belgorod as a ship for GUGI and as a Poseidon carrier and project 09851 and its subsequent modifications.  They are building the conventional 636.3 and the next generation Lada submarines.  They are already working on the next generations of conventional and nuclear submarines.  Surface ships.  They are building rocket frigates 22350, corvettes 23800. They will start building 22350M soon.  This is already a destroyer.  In addition, there are many other units and classes, for example 22800. All of them are armed with a wide range of modern cruise missiles and soon hypersonic missiles.  What is the United States building right now?  New frigates must be ordered in Europe.  They are still building several Arleigh Burke destroyers.  In addition, Ford aircraft carriers with which there are huge problems.  They are already withdrawing from the LCS service, I wonder why?  Russia builds many very diverse and modern surface and underwater units.The US is not building modern frigates.

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    Post  lyle6 Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:59 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:

    Wow, it is completly pointless and absolute rubish analysis, sorry my wording.


    And has no relationship with the reality. : D
    No problem - I have much worse takes before.

    But full disclosure: I stole this one from a drunk Russian exchange student over a couple of beers. Real or imagined, it sounds techno-thriller enough for Clancy so its good enough for me Laughing
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:36 pm

    Asia leads in deadweight, Europe in gross tons. Russia in neither.

    Nobody said Russia was leading.

    Did you even read what I wrote? Constructing an amount of small river barges, summing the amount as X amount of ships and comparing it to others doesn't work because a river barge is not the same in weight or complexity as an Aframax tanker, or cruise ship, or other large vessels that are the specialty of Asian yards like Japanese ones that people have gotten into their heads to compare to.

    Pretty sure they were not including small river barges or the numbers would be much higher...


    They are giving orders to other countries because Russian yards cannot complete orders within allotted deadlines and budgets, because most Russian yards are old and out of date, both in machine tooling, jigs, cranes, and construction method, lack of personnel, and many more reasons.

    Do you have proof of this or are you just making assumptions... because wouldn't that make you as wrong as Hole about this who also perhaps made some assumptions based on news reports?

    You can claim they don't make deadlines, which begs the question how do they get any orders at all?

    They are also stuffed to the brim with orders and have no realistic way of completing anymore, mainly because of the long construction times taking up more capacity than what is considered normal.

    You seem to have expert level information on the status of the Russian ship building industry... why don't you share some information... just for a couple of their biggest ports on the jobs they are doing, the jobs they are behind on and why there are delays...

    But of course continue whining, any actual realistic criticism that interrupts the delusions here on this forum is considered russophobic bullshit lmao, truth hurts I guess.

    The truth can hurt, but I am waiting for some evidence that Russian shipyards are incompetent idiots that can't finish anything on time with increasing backlogs leading to foreign companies getting work.

    The strange thing is that the only example is the Turkish deal to make a dry dock... but the Soviets got Sweden to make the one they used for the Kirov work... so were they fucking stupid and useless then too?

    I don't have any problem talking about the leaps and bounds made by Russian shipbuilding over the past decade, I am happy about it, but don't even try to spin it as Russia becoming a premier shipbuilding power by military or civil standard, Russia has a long way to go.

    But does it?

    It does not have to supply the world with ships, it just needs to meet its own needs for ships... remember it is under US sanction and EU sanction which limits their options in terms of customers anyway... because the west cannot compete on a level playing field so they have to cheat.

    So again, no actual metric by how Russia has surpassed South Korea or Japan in civil shipbuilding? Just more bullshit with no actual facts, meaning, or logic.

    Forgive me but the metric of total tonnage produced screams to me a metric that countries that produce a large number of ships would stick to as a measure because it suits them and their situation... how many SSNs could either of those countries build that are world class better than anyone else?

    We are not just talking construction volume.

    "who cares how much tonnage they build", you guys were literally wanking it over how Russia has surpassed them, when the actual facts come out, suddenly it doesn't matter? LMAO.

    If the shipyards you are comparing them to had made as much progress in the last 20 years they would be building deathstars by now... it is sad you are so shallow and butthurt to appreciate progress.

    You are a true internet fanboy... if they aren't number one then they are shit...

    And again, I have zero issue with Russia building it's domestic fleet, but don't portray constructing river barges as being equal to constructing Aframax tankers and Maersk type cargo vessels, because it just fucking isn't.

    But they are creating the worlds biggest ice breakers and some very large tankers for oil and for gas transport and as their production in other areas increases they will be looking to build large ships to transport that too.

    Considering the amount of deaths, fires, and other accidents Adm Kuz has gone through, Russia cannot even meet this bar then.

    Deaths on aircraft carriers?

    Japan would lead there, and Britain and the US have quite a few too... Russia is an amateur in that regard...

    I'm also amused, Ford class has nothing to do with Belokamenka Shipyard, the workers there are trained to construct LNG platforms and install equipment there, what skill do they have that could outfit a Russian CVN?

    A carpenter making row boats could do a better job than the US did with the Ford... would have been cheaper too.


    Sinking its own floating dock, multiple fires, Losharik submarine disaster, the sinking of an intelligence vessel in the bosphorus, yeah I would really not try to compare here.

    Difference is that the Russians and the Chinese for that matter put the fires out... they don't just let it burn.

    I'm aware of the Virginia steel issue, mind telling me where and how LCS and Ford have these issues?

    If only it was only used on the LCS and Ford classes... then it wouldn't be a problem for anything actually in use.... it effects their entire submarine fleet...

    I am also amused with you bringing up Zumwalt, the program is considered a failure rightly by Americans, but construction of three surface combatants with the weight of 17k tons is most certainly beyond Russian means currently, Russia only managed to put to water three Gorshkov frigates for now, I certainly would not try to be comparing American military shipbuilding to Russian one.

    Those three programmes pissed away more money than Russia spends on defence for an entire year... 7 odd billion for each Zumwalt (x3) plus about 16 billion for the Ford class joke and about 32 billion for the LCS ships... that is getting tantalisingly close to the entire Russian military budget for a year...

    There is only one part of this business with bigger added value, which is huge passenger cruisers.

    Passenger cruise ships are a dead end useless metric... most of them became covid farms...

    Interesting you lump the EU together... why not lump Asia together.... China, Russia, Japan, and South Korea... what sort of ship building performance is that compared with the US or Europe?

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:38 pm

    Arrow wrote:
    The US only builds Virginia. Virginia.  This is a much poorer and cheaper version of Seawolf.  

    Not even that.
    Virginia is actually improved 688.

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    Post  Hole Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:07 pm

    I got the No. 2 spot from the blog of Andrei Martyanov, who got the numbers from the russian ministry of economy and trade. The guy is no dumbass, so I believe him.

    We could also turn this around and ask which country is building more commercial ships then Russia? South Korea. Yes. They build nearly all the ships for western shipping companies. China. Propably yes. Japan and Russia are head-to-head. And now? British, french and danish yards are building a handful of ships. Germany is building mostly cruise liners, just like the US. India is big in scrapping ships, not building much of them.
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    Post  x_54_u43 Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:00 am

    Scorpius wrote:It is quite tedious to observe the requirements for providing numbers when all the numbers have already been provided.

    Oh, yes- those little riverboats:

    You provided **** all, I asked for direct comparison of metrics between countries such as Japan and Russia, by what metrics has Russia EXCEEDED Japan or South Korea to become no.2 or no.3 in the world for civil shipbuilding?

    All you provided was a bunch of statements(and now pictures) of Russian shipbuilding without any direct comparison to Japan or South Korea that people in this thread have claimed that Russia has displaced in shipbuilding.

    Speaking of your pictures, only your first two are river vessels, the rest are a mix of ocean going civil or military vessels.

    You know what's also very funny to me? Your last picture is of either Vladimir Monomakh or her second sister ship at Zvezda, both of which were mostly constructed in South Korea, then towed to Zvezda for final assembly, which in the case of Vladimir Monomakh, consisted of attaching the nose, not the bow, just the nose.

    Of course her follow on ships will become continuously more Russian in terms of production, as Zvezda finishes construction and hires enough workers(they only have half currently).

    So Scorpius, provide this time, actual direct comparisons between Russia and other shipbuilding countries, not just vomiting out numbers that group together civil and military construction, or numbers without comparison to other countries, or just plain pictures.

    In my previous response to you, I provided a link that detailed the world's shipbuilding market which covered Russia, and provided easy comparison between Russia and other nations. I will repeat this link again for you.  

    https://www.brsbrokers.com/assets/review_splits/BRS_Review_2020_Shipbuilding.pdf

    I highly suggest you read it. A key figure for you all here, in 2019, Russia had on order vessels with 1.65 million total deadweight tons, Japan DELIVERED vessels with 24 million tons of total deadweight.

    And if you want to adjust for gross tons which would more properly account for technological and labor complexity of vessels with higher added value than just bulk transporters, then Russia is no4. only in Europe.

    But feel free to provide your own numbers, but this time actually compare countries, and not just throw around pictures and sums.

    Arrow wrote:Why ?Is it worth comparing.  Let's take a look at the submarines.  The US only builds Virginia. Virginia.  This is a much poorer and cheaper version of Seawolf.  Russia builds Yasen M-class ships that cannot even be compared to Virginia.  They are much better and better armed.  They are still building a modern SSBN project 955A and already thinking about another modification.  They continue to build completely new carriers for Poseidon drones.  Belgorod as a ship for GUGI and as a Poseidon carrier and project 09851 and its subsequent modifications.  They are building the conventional 636.3 and the next generation Lada submarines.  They are already working on the next generations of conventional and nuclear submarines.  Surface ships.  They are building rocket frigates 22350, corvettes 23800. They will start building 22350M soon.  This is already a destroyer.  In addition, there are many other units and classes, for example 22800. All of them are armed with a wide range of modern cruise missiles and soon hypersonic missiles.  What is the United States building right now?  New frigates must be ordered in Europe.  They are still building several Arleigh Burke destroyers.  In addition, Ford aircraft carriers with which there are huge problems.  They are already withdrawing from the LCS service, I wonder why?  Russia builds many very diverse and modern surface and underwater units.The US is not building modern frigates.

    How many Virginias is US outputting into the water? Compare with Yasen-M, great sub but rate of construction leaves much to be desired.

    For GUGI, yes Russia has the largest special purpose submarine fleet in the world, most advanced as well, indeed something to take pride in, but Belgorod is a refit and only Khabarovsk is new construction. Russian military shipbuilding overall still pales in comparison to US output.

    As for 636.3 and Lada, again, nice subs, however, Lada is is painfully slow and delayed in construction, while Russia needs newly built ships and submarines yesterday, as the Soviet built ones begin to reach the end of their lifespans.

    As for LCS, they are only withdrawing the first few built, not the entire fleet, of which they have built more than 30, can you name a class of military vessel built in the Russian Federation with such construction numbers? Karakurts are literally sitting at pier waiting for heavily delayed  engines.

    As for the delays with Ford class, it is again a shining example between the state of shipbuilding between the two countries, one is delayed with the worlds largest supercarrier, the other with a frigate. How many years did it take for Gorshkov to enter service? It's sister ships?

    GarryB wrote:Nobody said Russia was leading.

    BULLSHIT, this whole discussion started on the previous page, with multiple people claiming that Russia had displaced either South Korea or Japan to become no2/no3 in world shipbuilding, I have yet to see anyone providing actual proof to support their claims.

    Pretty sure they were not including small river barges or the numbers would be much higher...

    Oh they sure did. It is the bulk of Russian shipbuilding, how about you actually do some research?

    This is the link Scorpius provided https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/26426.html

    Read for yourself what actual ships are being produced, imported, type, etc.

    Even Scorpius himself mentioned how many river-transporters are being constructed for the future.

    Scorpius wrote:According to JSC "TSNIIMF", according to the transport strategy of the Russian Federation for the period up to 2036, in the period from 2020 to 2024, it is planned to build 157 vessels with a total deadweight of 3.5 million tons. Including 36 sea vessels, 95 river-sea commercial vessels and 26 passenger vessels.

    River transport fleet is the bulk of Russian domestic production.


    Do you have proof of this or are you just making assumptions... because wouldn't that make you as wrong as Hole about this who also perhaps made some assumptions based on news reports?

    You can claim they don't make deadlines, which begs the question how do they get any orders at all?

    Lol, are you serious? Have you been living under a rock?

    For civil shipbuilding, Zvezda is not yet completed and its production has been mostly done at South Korean yards as I have explained before.

    Baltica is too busy with it's current order of Artika class icebreakers, the issue with Baltica is the archaic method of construction, they have not implemented large block construction methods (that Zvezda and other world level shipbuilders use) using Goliath class cranes or level drydocks, allowing for quick assembly and fitting out of vessels.

    Instead it has two inclined ramps where vessels are assembled at a certain threshold weight where they then must be lowered into the water. The method is acceptable for smaller ships but for larger ships and a higher pace of construction they need to modernize the yard, which they have wanted to do for some time, such as building a covered boathouse Sevmash style, allowing them to implement block construction methods. Problem is that they would have to cease shipbuilding for a certain period of time until the work is completed, resulting in a catch 22. Which results in orders going abroad.

    Severnaya is busy with it's frigates and trawlers, and is still waiting on it's 250m covered boathouse to being construction of larger vessels with block construction methods.

    Admiralty is busy with submarines and other smaller ships and has no capacity for any larger orders.

    And in general the Russian shipbuilding suffers from old outdated equipment, construction methods, and shortage of qualified personnel, dudes from Zvezda have literally been going all around Russia hunting for welders.

    You can read this article from bmpd, a somewhat biased source but the facts they present are without question, Russian yards are not capable to compete with foreign ones due to the fact that domestic yards are choking on domestic orders, they do not have enough production capacity due to the fact they use outdated construction methods as opposed to modern block construction.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4376683.html

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4359621.html

    There is also the issue of climate, Russia is vastly colder than say Turkey, China, South Korea, etc, which requires construction of covered boathouses and their heating, which adds additional cost.

    he truth can hurt, but I am waiting for some evidence that Russian shipyards are incompetent idiots that can't finish anything on time with increasing backlogs leading to foreign companies getting work.

    The strange thing is that the only example is the Turkish deal to make a dry dock... but the Soviets got Sweden to make the one they used for the Kirov work... so were they fucking stupid and useless then too?

    I didn't say incompetent idiots or fucking stupid and useless, so don't be a manchild. I said they are using older machine tools, outdated methods, and in general worker shortage that holds back Russian shipbuilding compared to foreign ones.

    It's not just the Turkish drydock, but also the Turkish icebreaker, the Chinese floating hulls for the new nuclear reactors, South Korean blocks being used in Russian drydocks, Germans taking part in state orders, the list goes on.

    The facts are that Russian domestic capacity is nowhere near enough for domestic orders whatsoever.

    But does it?

    It does not have to supply the world with ships, it just needs to meet its own needs for ships... remember it is under US sanction and EU sanction which limits their options in terms of customers anyway... because the west cannot compete on a level playing field so they have to cheat.

    Terrible news for you then, Russian shipyards cannot meet current domestic demand whatsoever.

    And if Russia wants to be a strong and prosperous country with high living standards, it will need a strong shipbuilding industry, which means inherently being in the position of exporting vessels to other countries, including large bulk carriers.

    Forgive me but the metric of total tonnage produced screams to me a metric that countries that produce a large number of ships would stick to as a measure because it suits them and their situation... how many SSNs could either of those countries build that are world class better than anyone else?

    We are not just talking construction volume.

    Forgive me, but this is civil shipbuilding. The ONLY reason I brought up military shipbuilding is because Scorpius summed both military and civil shipbuilding in order to present a larger amount of vessels in construction in Russian yards, to which I responded that it would not end well for Russia in comparing military shipbuilding between USA/Europe.

    And I remind you yet again, this started with Hole claiming that Russia is the second largest producer of civilian cargo ships in the world, following with Papadragon claiming that they overtook Japan only. Then Miketheterrible claiming that they are instead third.  Then Alamo claiming that "by any metric" Russia is either 2nd or 3rd place for for shipbuilding.

    Page 12 of this thread, starting at the very top.

    If the shipyards you are comparing them to had made as much progress in the last 20 years they would be building deathstars by now... it is sad you are so shallow and butthurt to appreciate progress.

    You are a true internet fanboy... if they aren't number one then they are shit...

    LMAO I am shallow and butthurt for not being a retarded fucking moron for going along blindly in this alt-right circlejerk of a forum that you've turned this website into?

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 6 Lyle10

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t8516p450-russian-space-program-news-discussion-4#342702

    People in the Space Program thread outright referring to American racial minorities as "sheboons" and such. This is supposed to be a respected forum? It's even more disturbing how many people liked this post by lyle.

    You have utterly failed in your duties as admin and Vladimir79 would be outright ashamed if he were seeing what you've turned this place into with your lax standards for forum behavior. Instead of moderating this forum, all you do is type out long paragraphs of meaningless diatribe.

    Tell me, is the above screenshot acceptable behavior in your opinion for this forum? You must have seen it, it's been up on the thread since Oct 6.

    As for Russian shipbuilders, I didn't call them shit, or incompetent losers, I have truthfully described with facts what the actual state of Russian civil shipbuilding is and how it compares to the world.

    It is your reaction and others that reveals who the true internet fanboys are, and who is the real shallow individuals here.

    But they are creating the worlds biggest ice breakers and some very large tankers for oil and for gas transport and as their production in other areas increases they will be looking to build large ships to transport that too.

    Sure, their nuclear icebreakers are a sight to behold and a point of pride, but it doesn't make it a world leader in shipbuilding like the Asian titans of China, South Korea, and Japan that have 95 percent of the world market.  As for those tankers, as I have said before, Zvezda is not completed, and those large oil and LNG tankers are mostly constructed in South Korea, then towed to Zvezda, in the future, the amount of Russian production will increase as Zvezda reaches full capacity.

    Deaths on aircraft carriers?

    Japan would lead there, and Britain and the US have quite a few too... Russia is an amateur in that regard...

    You cannot be serious, are you trying to bring in WW2 Pacific Theatre combat deaths in a comparison with Russia's current shipbuilding safety records?

    A carpenter making row boats could do a better job than the US did with the Ford... would have been cheaper too.

    Guess Russian shipbuilders are worse then rowboat-carpenters in your opinion then because it is the USA grappling with delays on supercarriers, and Russia struggling with frigate production and small missile boats.

    Difference is that the Russians and the Chinese for that matter put the fires out... they don't just let it burn.

    How many people have died working on Adm Kuz compared to Richard Bonhomme?

    If only it was only used on the LCS and Ford classes... then it wouldn't be a problem for anything actually in use.... it effects their entire submarine fleet...

    I have yet to see USA submarine hulls crumpling like paper over this issue, obviously a black mark on American submarine builders, but I don't see this exactly excusing the incredible delays over Yasen-M and Lada.

    Those three programmes pissed away more money than Russia spends on defence for an entire year... 7 odd billion for each Zumwalt (x3) plus about 16 billion for the Ford class joke and about 32 billion for the LCS ships... that is getting tantalisingly close to the entire Russian military budget for a year...

    Privilege of having a lot of money then, failed American programs give three 17k tonne missile cruisers, mind telling me how many of such vessels have been produced at Russian Federation yards? We will see how Super Gorshkov and Lider turn out.

    Passenger cruise ships are a dead end useless metric... most of them became covid farms...

    Interesting you lump the EU together... why not lump Asia together.... China, Russia, Japan, and South Korea... what sort of ship building performance is that compared with the US or Europe?

    Lol, I'll be sure to let the cruise ship industry know of your opinion, as well as Italy's Fincantieri who makes them.  Also in what universe are you lumping Russia with the Asian shipbuilders of China, SK, and Japan?

    Russia is microscopic in comparison with those three in terms of deadweight output and gross tons. And behind Italy, France, and Germany for gross tons in Europe, but the leader in deadweight orderbook, though this is not much of a prize.

    Hole wrote:I got the No. 2 spot from the blog of Andrei Martyanov, who got the numbers from the russian ministry of economy and trade. The guy is no dumbass, so I believe him.

    We could also turn this around and ask which country is building more commercial ships then Russia? South Korea. Yes. They build nearly all the ships for western shipping companies. China. Propably yes. Japan and Russia are head-to-head. And now? British, french and danish yards are building a handful of ships. Germany is building mostly cruise liners, just like the US. India is big in scrapping ships, not building much of them.

    Andrei Martyanov otherwise known as smoothiex IIRC, is evidently both grossly misinformed and misinforming others then.

    As I keep saying, Japan outproduces Russia by a order of magnitude, stop deluding yourself that they are head to head.
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:30 am

    I agree with x_54 to an extent.

    Russia was only recently rebuilding it's ship building industry and still has to localize production of various key components. Like engines. This will take more time and while Russia has boomed in previous years in shipbuilding, it still isn't ahead or on par yet with nations who have a solid and long functioning civil ship building infrastructure and industry.

    It will take time but eventually happen.

    If you count military vessels, it is doing well as well, but still not on top yet (besides subs).

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