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    TOR Air Defence system

    lyle6
    lyle6

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    Post  lyle6 Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:27 pm

    One of the planned modernizations for the Tor system is to enable the capability to act as tactical controller for lower tier short range air defenses, and maybe even the actual close combat elements themselves. The idea is to leverage upon the extensive capabilities of the Tor's radar systems to provide detection and target acquisition for shooters who don't have the means to to detect the target on their own.
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    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:02 pm

    Hole wrote:TOR Air Defence system - Page 18 H18a3910
    Better pic of the new missiles/containers.
    TOR Air Defence system - Page 18 015810
    The single body army version can hold 16 missiles too.

    Is it possible to accommodate another 2x8 starter on the vehicle? Or a pure pendant with 4 times 8 starters?
    Broski
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    Post  Broski Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:11 pm

    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:
    Hole wrote:TOR Air Defence system - Page 18 H18a3910
    Better pic of the new missiles/containers.
    TOR Air Defence system - Page 18 015810
    The single body army version can hold 16 missiles too.

    Is it possible to accommodate another 2x8 starter on the vehicle? Or a pure pendant with 4 times 8 starters?

    The turret has to be able to rotate 360 degrees on its axis, I don't see where you'd be able to fit another 8 missiles.
    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:18 pm

    I have seen that missile before Alamo https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/sukhoi-pak-fa.8276/page-234 (see gadeshi post)

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:37 pm

    The missiles look small but...
    TOR Air Defence system - Page 18 017210

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    Daniel_Admassu

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    Post  Daniel_Admassu Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:47 am

    Broski wrote:
    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:
    Hole wrote:TOR Air Defence system - Page 18 H18a3910
    Better pic of the new missiles/containers.
    TOR Air Defence system - Page 18 015810
    The single body army version can hold 16 missiles too.

    Is it possible to accommodate another 2x8 starter on the vehicle? Or a pure pendant with 4 times 8 starters?

    The turret has to be able to rotate 360 degrees on its axis, I don't see where you'd be able to fit another 8 missiles.

    I have always wandered about TOR why the missile turret needs to rotate along with the radars. Is there something to do with the alignment of the attitude correction thrusters on the missile tips? Otherwise they could just stack the search and engagement radars on the same boom and let them rotate independent of the turret. That way you get a simpler system and the opportunity to pack more ammunition.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:12 pm


    Rotating the missiles is the simplest way to fit them all in the relatively small vehicle, that is all there is to it


    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:27 pm

    They can use the concept artic variant if they really need more missiles. Just attach another launcher vehicle on the back.

    Cheap missiles should be carried in huge number. 8 was very low. 16 is better. 48 would be amazing.

    But don't forget they usually work in group so it is a big work to make them run out of ammo.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:15 am

    The radars of the TOR system were very expensive for their time and are still very capable and not cheap now.

    I agree that having phased array radar antenna for search and tracking that can be fixed and therefore electronically scan the airspace rather than rely on mechanical rotation would be a good solution... especially if it can be located in a raiseable platform on a cherry picker type arm to give it a good field of view and better radar horizon for low flying threats.

    As mentioned carrying missiles in a trailer of significant depth would allow enormous numbers of missiles to be carried in trailers that will be quite tall but not enormous and certainly not super heavy.

    A naval model as you might guess could have enormous numbers of missiles all packed together as well with deck penetration only requiring one deck at most.

    A shelterised version could have mutliple trailers linked in a train like chain that could be parked all over an area that needs protecting like an airfield.

    An airfield that is 3-5km long is a significantly difficult problem to protect, but with high resolution AESA tracking and search radars, you could place the vehicle in the centre near the control tower perhaps and have trailers parked all around the airfield connected to the system so the closest launch bin can be used to engage incoming threats.

    A truck trailer could have enormous numbers of ready to fire missiles... Or even better... modify a shipping container to take them because equipment to move and store and handle shipping containers is already in service as standard equipment around the world... the new small ships able to carry shipping containers could have a 40 ft container with maybe 200 ready to launch missiles, using the ships radar for detection and tracking...
    medo
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    Post  medo Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:54 pm

    Agree. Next evolution of Tor could be without turning turret, but with four AESA radar antennas to cover 360o and to search and track targets. It already have vertically launched missiles and with fixed turret, number could increase.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:19 pm

    These missiles are not cheap and the purpose of Tor is the air defence of a small fighting unit at the front. For that they need a lot of vehicles to stretch them along their own forces. I doubt that they will more then double the number of missiles in a new version, even with fixed radar antennas.
    medo
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    Post  medo Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:41 pm

    Tor missiles are radio guided and they are quite cheap comparing to IR or ARH guided ones. With fixed turret, you don't need a ring and you could place another casette with 8 missiles, so 24 together. This is quite a lot of missiles.
    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:51 am

    medo wrote:Tor missiles are radio guided and they are quite cheap comparing to IR or ARH guided ones. With fixed turret, you don't need a ring and you could place another casette with 8 missiles, so 24 together. This is quite a lot of missiles.
    Its actually 32. With a square you can fit to a circle you have 16, but if make that entire circle into a square the area is doubled, so 32.

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    Daniel_Admassu

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    Post  Daniel_Admassu Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:06 am

    lyle6 wrote:
    medo wrote:Tor missiles are radio guided and they are quite cheap comparing to IR or ARH guided ones. With fixed turret, you don't need a ring and you could place another casette with 8 missiles, so 24 together. This is quite a lot of missiles.
    Its actually 32. With a square you can fit to a circle you have 16, but if make that entire circle into a square the area is doubled, so 32.

    Correct. Good to know someone remembers their geometry. That is of course the inscribed vs circumscribing square.

    But then again if the rotation requirement is ditched, why a square at all and not a rectangle, depending on available space, for even more tubes?
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:16 pm

    With four AESA antenna arrays pointing in all directions at one time a 360 degree search scan can be done in miliseconds... it is just a case of turning on the transmitter elements and listening for returns... because the system does not need to rotate at all it will be lighter and cheaper and simpler.

    With four arrays it wont be cheap, but you could save money by having Reloading vehicles with ready to launch missiles.

    The terminology for the system is wonky because it is not a TEL... transporter, erector, launcher... because there is no need to elevate or orient the missiles for launch, but each vehicle could easily be designed to have large numbers of missiles because as mentioned without the turret ring it could have a fixed upper structure that is the full width of the hull...

    This system has generally been tracked because it is intended to operate with all Russian Armoured forces, both Motor Rifle and Tank forces... each of which had two air defence battalions (I think)... Missile, which is TOR but used to be OSA, and gun and missile which originally was Shilka and SA-9 or SA-13 (strela-1 or Strela-10), but currently is Tunguska with gun and missile combined.

    A Wheeled version with wheels could have a wider hull in the centre with even more missiles to include the area the tracks take up on the current model... perhaps the 6 or 4 wheeled model of Typhoon could be used?

    Enormous potential because the missiles are excellent and relatively cheap and simple missiles.

    The System is expensive because it had expensive 3D tracking radars in the mid 1980s... which was really something, but the missiles are relatively cheap and they like to use a lot of them in exercises. Their performance in combat and at airshows has been excellent AFAIK.
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    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Today at 2:44 am

    Is gate now air board or troop protection? Syria is mainly used to protect Russian bases. It is the only system which is almost 100% reliable.

    Iran uses it mainly to protect the most important facilities. Other countries make this way too. Why is PANTSIR-S or SM Air Defense and Tor Troop Protection?

    Tor would have a much higher priority in procurement. And why will not it hand over to Syria and the SAA?
    Broski
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    Post  Broski Today at 6:01 am

    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Is gate now air board or troop protection? Syria is mainly used to protect Russian bases. It is the only system which is almost 100% reliable.

    Iran uses it mainly to protect the most important facilities. Other countries make this way too. Why is PANTSIR-S or SM Air Defense and Tor Troop Protection?
    Tor is tracked, Pantsir is wheeled. The Aerospace version of Tor will be the 42S6 Morfey, currently under development.
    x_54_u43
    x_54_u43

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    Post  x_54_u43 Today at 10:44 am

    Broski wrote:
    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Is gate now air board or troop protection? Syria is mainly used to protect Russian bases. It is the only system which is almost 100% reliable.

    Iran uses it mainly to protect the most important facilities. Other countries make this way too. Why is PANTSIR-S or SM Air Defense and Tor Troop Protection?
    Tor is tracked, Pantsir is wheeled. The Aerospace version of Tor will be the 42S6 Morfey, currently under development.

    Morfey was/is entirely new system with new missile, though it's chances of seeing service are very slim, desire for it apparently was not very high.

    The missile it was meant to use(9M100(?)) are easily quadpacked onto S-350/400/500 and can use their sensors and offboard ones as well.

    Plus developments of 57mm guided shells changed things around quite a bit in terms of gun vs missile for mass target interception.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Today at 2:00 pm

    It is quite complicated.

    TOR is tracked and designed to operate with armoured units along with the Tunguska which has Pantsir like missiles and guns for the role.

    A shelterised TOR can be used to protect airfields and large structures and its optimisation for shooting down munitions like HARM and guided bombs makes it rather effective and powerful for swatting down even small threats, but it lacks that last line of defence... automatic cannon.

    New missiles on the way like Pine which is a short range cheap laser beam riding high speed missile, together with the 9M100 Morfei missile which is part of the S-350 system but also likely a missile on its own that replaces SA-9 and SA-13 type missiles too...

    The Russians have layer upon layer of missile and system to protect their ground forces with Igla-S and Verba MANPADS with proximity fuses for tiny targets including drones and ATGMS, and these new systems to further protect ground forces, and of course most of their ATGMs can also be used against air targets like the Vikhr and Kornet and the new Bulat light missile.

    The new LMURS in a vertical launch system with optical lock on after launch might be related to Morfei or they could be completely different weapons... it is going to be very dangerous to be an air or ground target near Russian forces and it is only getting worse with air burst 30mm shells and new 57mm rounds too.


    Morfey was/is entirely new system with new missile, though it's chances of seeing service are very slim, desire for it apparently was not very high.

    The missile it was meant to use(9M100(?)) are easily quadpacked onto S-350/400/500 and can use their sensors and offboard ones as well.

    Pine might make it redundant because its high speed and automated tracking system make it rather cheap and easy to use while the sophisticated guidance of the morfei might mean it is not so cheap but better for self defence in a complex environment.

    The Morfei is the short range missile in the S-350 system which is likely to be adopted at sea and for air force units using Redut and S-350 respectively as a compliment to Pantsir air defence systems.

    The 57mm guns and 30mm guns with air burst ammo will be useful for Air Force and Naval use but I think the guided 57mm rounds will only be used against manouvering targets whereas missiles like TOR and Pantsir will be first choice use against manouvering targets and air burst 30mm and 57mm rounds will be used against hovering drones or targets in level flight like glide bombs and drones and cruise missiles.

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