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    TOR Air Defence system

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    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 Empty Re: TOR Air Defence system

    Post  Atmosphere Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:05 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Arctic "Thor": moves, shoots and swims in any climate

    At the end of 2021, the Ground Forces of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation received two divisional sets of the Tor-M2 and Tor-M2DT anti-aircraft missile systems manufactured by the Izhevsk Electromechanical Plant Kupol.

    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 Arctictorus011

    Of particular interest here are anti-aircraft missile systems produced in a special Arctic version: the combat module of these systems is installed on the Vityaz two-link tracked all-terrain vehicles.

    The Arctic complex "Tor-M2DT" is a representative of the "Tor" family, designed to serve in the polar region, providing control of the airspace of the Arctic and air defense of military and industrial facilities.

    We learned about the practical use of the Arctic Tors in the winter of 2019, when the Russian Ministry of Defense announced the start of the use of the Northern fleet Arctic anti-aircraft missile system "Tor-M2DT". At that time, the personnel of the air defense division equipped with new complexes completed a training course at the training center and performed the first live firing at the training ground in the Astrakhan region.

    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 20210822163347_022a4716

    The main task of the Tor-M2DT complex is to provide air defense for military formations and state and military facilities in difficult climatic conditions, at low Arctic temperatures. At the same time, the fire and reconnaissance capabilities of the Arctic complex correspond to the base "Tor-M2".

    The complex detects air attack weapons at ranges up to 32 km, and can fire missiles at four of them at once. The complex is capable of intercepting small-sized air targets flying at speeds of up to 700 m/s, in any weather conditions and at any time of the day, in conditions of intense fire and radio-optical-electronic countermeasures.

    It should be noted that Tor-M2DT differs from the main version of the complex by its carrier base - the combat module is placed on the chassis of the two-link tracked floating all-terrain vehicle DT-30PM-T Vityaz, capable of moving in completely off-road conditions - from the southern deserts to the snows of the Arctic.

    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 7233026_315_311_3072_2044_1920x0_80_0_0_d8ac60257f01e70c7acd1ee809808221

    In the Arctic complexes, cold-resistant fuels and lubricants are used, which retain their qualities at a 50-degree frost. Engineers have adapted all elements of Tor-M2DT for service in the Arctic. The developers have created conditions for effective combat work of the crew at an air temperature of minus 50-60 ° C.

    The driving characteristics of the Arctic complex "Tor-M2DT" are impressive: the speed on paved roads is up to 43 km/h, on dirt roads - up to 30 km/h, on rough terrain - up to 15 km/h, afloat - up to 4 km/h.

    We also note that the Vityaz all-terrain vehicle is the only vehicle in the world that can not only overcome the impenetrable spaces of the Arctic, but also swim in the icy waters of the ocean.

    https://en.topwar.ru/191785-arkticheskij-tor-dvigaetsja-streljaet-i-plavaet-v-ljuboj-klimaticheskoj-obstanovke.html

    They used the starcraft font i see.

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Wed May 25, 2022 5:17 pm

    Has the production rate increased?
    What about a trailer for smaller and more rockets against smaller drones?
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    Post  GarryB Thu May 26, 2022 3:59 am

    AFAIK there were plans for an anti drone very short range missile for use against small elusive targets... you don't need a 20kg warhead that can hit targets 15km away when the target is a tiny drone you might not be able to detect at more than 5-6km.

    The Pantsir system has a small missile carried four to a tube of the original missiles for use against smaller lighter targets, so perhaps with TOR they will do the same.

    There has been talk about mini missiles of about 10kgs weight with precision guidance that can hit targets directly like artillery shells of unguided rockets... which require direct hits with a decent HE charge to destroy, for which the US equivalent 3kg missiles are probably not adequate for in the opinions of the Russians.

    The final missiles will be small and compact and carried in enormous numbers... hundreds of missiles carried per vehicle that could be used against artillery rounds and also missiles like Javelin etc etc... not a replacement for APS but a compliment...

    Old systems like DROZD and ARENA could hit direct line of sight weapons including RPGs, while these missiles could engage the top attack Javelins and Spikes and Copperheads...

    These new missiles could even deal with artillery shells... though obviously Pantsir and TOR would be better because they could intercept the artillery rockets before they release submunitions etc.

    Together with lasers and directed jammers or even just blinders these would be useful on a modern battlefield.

    (note a blinder simply overwhelms the camera on a drone so it can't see... which means it becomes useless as a recon tool or attack weapon... it does not hav eto be powerful enough to do damage to the camera which means it can effect drones to a much greater distance than if it was trying to damage them.)

    TOR missiles are command guided and are very very cheap and simple... all the complex stuff is in the vehicle and is reused.
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    Post  Hole Thu May 26, 2022 4:41 pm

    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 023410
    Propable layout: 8 standard + 32 smaller missiles

    You could add a trailer or change the platform to the DT-30.

    1. Add an extra vehicle based on the DT-30 without turret and radars, only missiles (like the one for the Buk system). Only silos for missiles.
    You could easily deploy 24 standard missiles in the forward and 36 missiles in the back part. A battery of 4 standard and 2 DT-30´s would nearly triple
    the missile load.

    2. Use the DT-30 and add 4 fixed AESA radars in the corners of the vehicle for air search/fire control. No need for a turret to turn the fire control radar
    and therefore more space for missiles.

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    Post  lyle6 Thu May 26, 2022 5:30 pm

    Petition to rename Bayraktar to Rekt-By-Tor. Twisted Evil

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Thu May 26, 2022 10:22 pm

    Hole wrote:TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 023410
    Propable layout: 8 standard + 32 smaller missiles

    You could add a trailer or change the platform to the DT-30.

    1. Add an extra vehicle based on the DT-30 without turret and radars, only missiles (like the one for the Buk system). Only silos for missiles.
    You could easily deploy 24 standard missiles in the forward and 36 missiles in the back part. A battery of 4 standard and 2 DT-30´s would nearly triple
    the missile load.

    2. Use the DT-30 and add 4 fixed AESA radars in the corners of the vehicle for air search/fire control. No need for a turret to turn the fire control radar
    and therefore more space for missiles.
    Yes Yes Yes! 8x Long Range and 32x smaller missiles!
    Build and introduce immediately

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    Post  GarryB Fri May 27, 2022 5:47 am

    The main problem is that the current missiles fit in the turret which is much smaller than it needs to be... if you are having a two chassis vehicle then having a fixed upper structure with four phased array radar arrays for search and tracking so you don't need an actual turning turret means the entire chassis could contain missiles and the current missiles are small while the newer smaller missiles are even smaller.

    The volume on the current vehicle that contains missiles is tiny yet 16 ready to launch missiles is actually rather good.

    These new missiles add capabilities and features in that they are likely not only smaller calibre, but also likely shorter, so you could add a bin at the rear or sides of the hull that contain lots more missiles.

    The problem with the current DT layout is that both sections are relatively compact and the front section is crew compartment and main engine while the rear is mostly TOR turret.

    I would probably go the other way and take a wheeled TOR vehicle and tow a container trailer like a truck trailer that could literally have hundreds of missiles on it.

    Anyone who has towed a trailer... especially a big heavy one will know what a pain in the backside they are and how they seriously effect driving and manouver performance, so I would say on the move tow the trailer but for any stop or even fixed location like an airfield it could park up the trailer which would have its own small gas turbine power generator and direct datalink to the main vehicle which can launch missiles from the trailer if it happens to be closer to the target than the TOR vehicle at the time. You could design it so a single vehicle can command multiple trailers at a time so if you were defending an airfield you could dig a dozen trailers in various places along the runway and hangar area and one or two or four TOR vehicles can search for targets and direct the missiles from the trailers first to deal with any attack. Some could be camouflaged and only exposed to allow missile launches when the attack has started...
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    Post  GarryB Fri May 27, 2022 5:55 am

    1. Add an extra vehicle based on the DT-30 without turret and radars, only missiles (like the one for the Buk system). Only silos for missiles.
    You could easily deploy 24 standard missiles in the forward and 36 missiles in the back part. A battery of 4 standard and 2 DT-30´s would nearly triple
    the missile load.

    That would be 3 x 8 missile launch bins in the front vehicle which is fine because you also need the engine and crew and fuel in the front section, but the rear should be able to carry 6 to 8 launch bins without a turret area... so lets say 6... that would be 48 of the standard missiles... and so the new small missiles which fit 32 missiles to the 8 tube launcher space means four missiles per tube times 8... so with 48 standard missiles times 8, that would be 384 missiles... plus the 24 missiles in the front section which would be 408 missiles per vehicle....

    With the new very small missiles you could cold launch them with compressed air if they are only 10-20 kgs, which would be a cheap and efficient way of launching them... you could run a compressor off the vehicle engine.
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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Fri May 27, 2022 5:13 pm

    I have long wanted a DT-30 with a trailer as a standard. 8x Longrange and 8x midrange rockets + trailer with 24x short distances, 8x Longrange and 8x midrange Rockets. Has the advantage that reloading does not endanger the whole system. Simply hanging and ready. The main vehicle has 2x8 as a self -protection.

    The trailer should of course have a support drive. In addition, the whole system could "go" on the transport of its second trailer.

    If more mobility is needed on the battlefield, the trailer coupling should be "magnetic". Of course with Datalink so that the standing trailer can continue to fire.
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    Post  GarryB Sat May 28, 2022 5:22 am

    The issue with the DT series vehicles is that it is a fully articulated link that transfers drive shaft power to the tracks on the rear module and can be lifted and rotated.

    They do it like that so that if the whole vehicle is in the water, the floatation of the rear section can use the articulated connection to lift the front section out of the water and onto the ice and hold it level to the ground to spread its weight out so it doesn't just break the ice and fall straight back through.

    Once the front bit is on the ice it can use the articulated connector to lift up the rear section out of the ice and drive forward so the whole vehicle is on the ice.

    With a single hulled vehicle that is amphbious, when you try to get out of the water all the weight of the vehicle as it comes out of the water goes onto the edge of the ice which of course breaks unless it is super thick, so rather than climbing out of the ice you just become an ice breaker.

    In addition to this trick it also means you can get out of deep snow or deep mud because you can shift weight between the front and back module as needed for traction or shifting pressure on the surface you are operating on.


    I would say the fact that vertically stowed missiles could be ready to launch and are as efficient as any other method of carrying a lot of missiles that ready to launch trailers could be used for standard tracked and wheeled versions of TOR... fit them with small generators and direct optical datalink connections for launches and you could place the all over the area you want to defend. If you want them for mobile combat then put them on an armoured truck like a Typhoon with ready to launch missiles in the back operating on the command of the TOR vehicle operating with the group or convoy.

    Going to a dangerous area... take a few extra trucks... put a remote 12.7mm HMG or 30-40mm grenade launcher weapon station on the truck cab roof with optics to help deal with ambush situations... a couple of TOR vehicles looking for drones and aircraft or incoming munitions like Spike or Javelin, and a couple of Terminators looking for anti armour ambush groups... along with drones or attack helicopters as armed escorts too...

    Of course later on the new anti ambush SAMs will be even better and carried in even greater numbers... perhaps a module you can add to a standard supply vehicle so they all carry self defence missiles.
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    Post  caveat emptor Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:12 pm

    Kupol started building new TOR module.

    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 Img_2023
    https://t.me/istorijaoruzijaZ/9579
    "Thor" will shoot down low-flying targets.

    In Izhevsk, at the Kupol electromechanical plant, which is part of the Almaz-Antey concern, a new Tor air defense system module is being created. Vyacheslav Kartashov, assistant to the general director, spoke about this on the air of the federal TV channel. The new anti-aircraft complex software will allow you to work on low-flying targets.

    "Today we started developing a new module, which will already implement new technical solutions tested in the Arctic. We will use double the ammunition, the software that we tested when firing at a low-flying target. The hull will be created new, lightweight. This is the only one today an air defense system that can be transported by a helicopter on an external sling. There are no other such air defense systems in the world," Kartashov said.

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    Post  TMA1 Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:38 pm

    Dont think there is any shorads as good as the Tor. This new one is looking awesome.

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:47 am

    Is there a follow -up order for TorM2? What does the current contract say? How many TorM2 until when?
    Is the order adjusted?
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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:16 am

    We will use double the ammunition, the software that we tested when firing at a low-flying target. The hull will be created new, lightweight. This is the only one today an air defense system that can be transported by a helicopter on an external sling. There are no other such air defense systems in the world," Kartashov said.

    That means with the front cabin carrying the crew and engine, the rear cabin likely carries 32 ready to fire missiles.

    I still think a palletised missile system makes sense.

    Base it on a standard shipping crate with an engine generator at one end with a fuel supply and perhaps the rest of the crate holding 10 of those launch modules from the very original system that used to hold four missiles. Two per turret on the original vehicle meant 8 missiles ready to launch.

    The current missiles fit 8 missiles to a module and the new small missiles maybe four missiles for each old missile, so 32 missiles per module.

    Say half with current missiles and half with anti drone missiles that would be 5 x 8 plus 5 x 32 which would mean 200 missiles ready to fire (40 with 15km range and 160 with perhaps 5km range for anti drone use?).

    Above the power supply system in one end of the container you could have a raiseable mast system for direct laser communications with other standard launchers.

    That means on the ground for the Army they could have their normal batteries of TOR vehicles, but if operating from a fixed location for a while a truck could drive up and place a shipping container amongst them with 200 ready to fire missiles they can launch and control before using any missiles they should have loaded onto their vehicles. The shipping container could remain on its truck trailer so just hook up and drive away if needed.

    For use on a train you could have a carriage at the front and a carriage at the rear with TOR modules like the ones they are developing for the navy and just put normal flatbeds between them with missiles plus of course the engines to move them around... you could use it to defend things travelling by rail or rail yards or any large factory or business that has rail lines running near it... able to move at speed. Could be disguised as a normal train if you want.

    And for Navy use a couple of pallets sitting on the rear deck of a corvette... tied down to the deck and plugged in... using the ships main AESA radars for search and tracking and directing the command guided missiles... 200 in each container... say four on deck... that is more missiles defending it than the Kuznetsov currently has...

    And the key point is that with a good radar system these things are very very accurate and very effective but being command guided they are also very cheap and easy to mass produce.

    (The systems were not cheap because they used a 3D search radar and expensive but also very capable tracking radar system... but the missiles were cheap and very capable.)
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    Post  Hole Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:15 pm

    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 Fkqms610
    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 Fkqmsg10
    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 Fkqmsn10
    Belarusian stuff

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    Post  lyle6 Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:18 pm

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:06 pm

    very nice
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:39 am

    Really shows the one drawback of the design, even though at the time it was not a draw back because carrying 8 ready to fire missiles was very good for the 1980s and then later they doubled it to 16 missiles ready to fire which is also very good, but as you can see in the photo below taken from the video above all the missiles fit in the section that goes down the turret hole into the chassis, so they fitted 8 and now 16 missiles into that space... imagine how many missiles they could fit in the rear of a light truck...

    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 Tor_tu10

    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 Tor_tu11

    A two chassis version like the arctic model that has the spinning turret on the front section and the rear tractor is just all missiles could probably have a missile area four to six times bigger than the turret hole on the standard model, so four to six times 16 is a lot of missiles ready to fire and they are developing smaller shorter ranged anti drone missiles which can fit 32 missiles in the space it carried 8 missiles in the new version so 64 missiles per standard vehicle, or more likely 8 normal sized missiles and 32 short range mini missiles = 40 missiles per vehicle, so lets be conservative and say four turret ring area spaces on the rear trailer... with has no turning parts and no turret so would be ideal for attaching to the deck of a ship, so each turret could carry 16 or in the future up to 64 but more realistic 40 ready to fire missiles... so 64 full range missiles, or a maximum of 256 missiles with all small anti drone missiles, or a more realistic 160 missiles in one deck mount.

    That would be sufficient for shooting down HIMARs attacks because it would be easier to have a couple of these vehicles than it would be to group enormous numbers of HIMARS launchers to mount a successful attack where attacking rockets outnumber defending SAMs.

    But they are working on new ARH mini SAMs for just that purpose which could perhaps be incorporated into this system... these command guided missiles will be cheaper than the new ARH missiles so a mix would keep costs down while maximising performance.

    (Note packing fixed missiles in the rear chassis means it wont need circles, it can use square and rectangular storage positions and therefore stack more missile modules in than can be fitted in a circle, which is two side by side of four missiles in the early model and 8 in the newer model and 32 in the near future design.)

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:27 am

    If I am not mistaken, the guy in a suit was talking something about "poszieriennyj" diameter - increased in English.

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:50 pm

    Example: Small rockets at the back and front for close range.
    In the middle 16-20 for the 15-25km range.
    Maybe it would have to be a little higher at the top to absorb the small rockets.

    The artical model, with possibly two pendants, would of course be a possible alternative.

    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 M310
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    Post  Broski Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:40 pm

    A 2 Chassis version of Tor is the next logical step, or a single chassis with fixed AESA panels on all 4 sides like what you'd find on a Destroyer, but that would be expensive.
    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 8A3l5jX
    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 XLG8gth

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    Post  Isos Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:22 pm

    I would rather develop a very light version.

    Those armored trucks/vehicles that carry them are good for frontline troops but if you want a system to protect power plants or airfields it is better to have a cheaper plateform easier to maintain and use. Pantsir uses a very cheap and widely spread truck which makes it cheaper than Tor.

    IMO Tor can be mounted on an even smaller truck than pantsir. Since it does't use a turret and guns, its missiles are also cold launched which means not reinforced launchers.
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    Post  Isos Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:26 pm

    They already propose the module m2km to be mounted on different plateform. But they can go a step ahead and reduce the weight of that launcher and integrate it on a truck with a separeted cabine. The new missile with half the size of previous ones would help achieving such light versions.

    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 Tor-m210

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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:40 am

    Pantsir uses a very cheap and widely spread truck which makes it cheaper than Tor.

    The Pantsir is a wheeled version of Tunguska... TOR is expensive not just because it is tracked (for mobility with the tracked vehicles it supports) but also because it has a 3D search radar and phased array tracking radar that are not cheap.

    Using a four faced AESA array like those fitted on ships, it could combine electronic tracking with electronic search... which means the fast spinning search radar can be replaced by the AESA array able to scan 360 degrees in miliseconds... faster than any mechanically scanned radar.

    That image of the elongated turret of the current TOR is interesting but would require the short range missile model to be the height of the turret and not need the turret ring to extend the space for the missile down into the hull.

    If that is the case then I would say put the radar equipment on a vehicle more compact than the current one without any missiles on board... perhaps three EO turrets on the roof but four AESA radars facing four directions on the fixed upper structure.

    The standard long range missiles would fit into a standard shipping crate, as would the new smaller missiles which could be carried around by trucks operating with the unit.

    The shipping crates could include all the electronics, and just need the radar component to direct the missiles... you could have shipping crates all over your bases with the radar vehicles assigned as needed. Equally for moving vehicle support a few trucks carrying missiles in the containers would be cheap and mobile and if the top layer of containers on any ship had missiles, or for that matter any train or truck convoy...

    Separating the missiles from the command and control vehicle means the C&C vehicle could activate any number of nearby missile containers as needed to deal with the targets it detects... the physical distribution of the containers could be useful... a military airfield with a 5km long runway could have containers with missiles all over the place... even dug into the ground to make them rather difficult to target... and of course dozens of decoys and indeed the missiles inside the real missile containers could be used to defend said containers and engage systems trying to attack them.

    With three EO turrets all operating independently on each vehicle and four AESA radars scanning 360 degrees electronically you should be able to engage dozens of targets at one time with each radar vehicle so having three or four per airfield with potentially hundreds of missiles per shipping container would offer impressive defence performance... the AESA radar should be able to cover the local area... some mast mounted radar similar to the one used by their new attack helicopters that can be raised up to better detect low flying targets and drones could be fitted to some vehicles too with a wide range of uses independent of this battery.

    The missiles can be cheap command guidance and produced in enormous numbers for land and sea and perhaps even air use on attack aircraft for self defence.

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    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 Empty Re: TOR Air Defence system

    Post  Podlodka77 Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:28 pm

    February 8, 16:21

    Izhevsk plant "Kupol" improved the "Tor" air defense system to combat HIMARS shells
    "Tor" is designed to cover the first echelons of land formations

    TASS, 8 February. The Izhevsk Electromechanical Plant Kupol (IEMZ Kupol, part of the Almaz-Antey concern) has finalized the Tor anti-aircraft missile system (SAM), which increased its effectiveness in combating shells fired from HIMARS multiple launch rocket systems This was announced by Ilya Rykov, Deputy Chief Designer for Repair and Modernization.

    "Those goals for which we started working, which we had not met before, [for which] there was no possibility of working out - these are the well-known HIMARS. We have encountered them, we can fight them. <...> Certain improvements have been made, now work is proceeding more efficiently with these goals," he said on Wednesday on the air of the Zvezda TV channel.

    "Tor" - a short-range air defense system designed to cover the first echelons of ground formations from attacks by anti-radar and cruise missiles, gliding bombs, aircraft, helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles, including those combined into a swarm. The air defense system is capable of controlling the designated airspace itself and independently shooting down all air targets that are not identified by the "friend or foe" system. It consists of 16 vertical-launch anti-aircraft missiles with a range of up to 12 km and an altitude range of up to 10 km. The upgraded radar of the complex is capable of detecting aircraft created using radar signature reduction technology.

    One of the latest modifications of the complex - the Tor-M2U air defense system - can detect and track over 40 targets, as well as simultaneously fire up to four of them, firing four missiles in sequence. The latest version of the air defense system is Tor-M2KM. Also, the complex exists in the arctic version "Tor-M2DT" based on the two-link tracked transporter DT-30.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/16997913



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    TOR Air Defence system - Page 19 Empty Re: TOR Air Defence system

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