TOR Air Defence system

Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Experience shows that the TorM2 or the marine variant is simply better than PanzirM and other things. It's also significantly more expensive. Better radar that Panzir will never have. Latest Russian CPU hardware etc. Best rocket power and best training. Therefore damn expensive.

A TorM system should function as a Mini Sam system in the future. TorM2U as a center system with a link to S-300 / S-400 / Buk / local PanzirM etc. and a link to a system like TorSM with small missiles but 16 to 32 for small drones. But the better detection of drones that illuminate a target is very important.

As an export weapon, PanzirM is ok for those who need a lot of defense. It is also about costs. TorM2 is important for protecting high value targets. That should only go to loyal, safe countries and much more to your own army. Production needs to be increased and the number of systems increased significantly and quickly. See Karabakh conflict. See Lakatia Base and the drone danger there. PanzirM is demonstrably suboptimal there.

TorM2 is like the Mig-31BM, S-400/500 and R-77M1 the most important system protecting Russia. Every ruble must flow into these systems and their development.

TOR is as much a lame duck as Pantsir as you throw them in the open and alone. Same for Most drones.

В сложившейся обстановке единственным эффективным средством огневого поражения БЛА у Армении стали немногочисленные подразделения «Тор-М2КМ». В отсутствие внешнего целеуказания и централизованного управления противовоздушным боем они были вынуждены действовать автономно, в рассредоточенных боевых порядках мелких подразделений (взвод, батарея). Во взаимодействии с системами РЭБ зенитно-ракетные комплексы «Тор-М2КМ» добились существенных результатов: за последние две недели боевых действий среднесуточные потери БЛА составили 6-8 единиц, а иногда и больше. Расчетами ЗРК «Тор-М2КМ», в результате боевых действий было уничтожено свыше 60 воздушных целей, в том числе шесть БЛА Bayraktar TB2, при этом расход зенитных управляемых ракет на одну цель был с коэффициентом 1,1-1,2. Применение комплекса РЭБ «Поле-21» привело к снижению интенсивности вылетов оперативной и тактической авиации ВВС Азербайджана примерно в 1,5 раза, а боевых вылетов БЛА и барражирующих боеприпасов – в 2 раза. При этом зоны барражирования БЛА были смещены вглубь территории Азербайджана на 10-25 км от линии боевого соприкосновения.

In the current situation, the only effective means of fire destruction of UAVs in Armenia were the few Tor-M2KM units. In the absence of external target designation and centralized control of anti-aircraft combat, they were forced to act autonomously, in dispersed combat formations of small units (platoon, battery). In cooperation with electronic warfare systems, the Tor-M2KM anti-aircraft missile systems have achieved significant results: over the past two weeks of hostilities, the average daily losses of UAVs amounted to 6-8 units, and sometimes even more. The calculations of the Tor-M2KM air defense system, as a result of the hostilities, destroyed over 60 air targets, including six Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, while the consumption of anti-aircraft guided missiles per target was 1.1-1.2. The use of the "Pole-21" electronic warfare system led to a decrease in the intensity of sorties of the operational and tactical aviation of the Azerbaijani Air Force by about 1.5 times, and combat sorties of UAVs and loitering ammunition - 2 times. At the same time, the UAV patrol zones were displaced deep into the territory of Azerbaijan at 10-25 km from the line of contact.

medo wrote:https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/5998978.html

В сложившейся обстановке единственным эффективным средством огневого поражения БЛА у Армении стали немногочисленные подразделения «Тор-М2КМ». В отсутствие внешнего целеуказания и централизованного управления противовоздушным боем они были вынуждены действовать автономно, в рассредоточенных боевых порядках мелких подразделений (взвод, батарея). Во взаимодействии с системами РЭБ зенитно-ракетные комплексы «Тор-М2КМ» добились существенных результатов: за последние две недели боевых действий среднесуточные потери БЛА составили 6-8 единиц, а иногда и больше. Расчетами ЗРК «Тор-М2КМ», в результате боевых действий было уничтожено свыше 60 воздушных целей, в том числе шесть БЛА Bayraktar TB2, при этом расход зенитных управляемых ракет на одну цель был с коэффициентом 1,1-1,2. Применение комплекса РЭБ «Поле-21» привело к снижению интенсивности вылетов оперативной и тактической авиации ВВС Азербайджана примерно в 1,5 раза, а боевых вылетов БЛА и барражирующих боеприпасов – в 2 раза. При этом зоны барражирования БЛА были смещены вглубь территории Азербайджана на 10-25 км от линии боевого соприкосновения.

In the current situation, the only effective means of fire destruction of UAVs in Armenia were the few Tor-M2KM units. In the absence of external target designation and centralized control of anti-aircraft combat, they were forced to act autonomously, in dispersed combat formations of small units (platoon, battery). In cooperation with electronic warfare systems, the Tor-M2KM anti-aircraft missile systems have achieved significant results: over the past two weeks of hostilities, the average daily losses of UAVs amounted to 6-8 units, and sometimes even more. The calculations of the Tor-M2KM air defense system, as a result of the hostilities, destroyed over 60 air targets, including six Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, while the consumption of anti-aircraft guided missiles per target was 1.1-1.2. The use of the "Pole-21" electronic warfare system led to a decrease in the intensity of sorties of the operational and tactical aviation of the Azerbaijani Air Force by about 1.5 times, and combat sorties of UAVs and loitering ammunition - 2 times. At the same time, the UAV patrol zones were displaced deep into the territory of Azerbaijan at 10-25 km from the line of contact.

Considering, that Armenia have only 1 battery of Tor-M2KM, it is actually good result to shot down more than 60 enemy UAVs, including 6 TB2. They were working as single autonomous vehicles and not networked as a unit to protect each other. Anyway, Tor is proved UAV killer.

medo wrote:https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/5998978.html

В сложившейся обстановке единственным эффективным средством огневого поражения БЛА у Армении стали немногочисленные подразделения «Тор-М2КМ». В отсутствие внешнего целеуказания и централизованного управления противовоздушным боем они были вынуждены действовать автономно, в рассредоточенных боевых порядках мелких подразделений (взвод, батарея). Во взаимодействии с системами РЭБ зенитно-ракетные комплексы «Тор-М2КМ» добились существенных результатов: за последние две недели боевых действий среднесуточные потери БЛА составили 6-8 единиц, а иногда и больше. Расчетами ЗРК «Тор-М2КМ», в результате боевых действий было уничтожено свыше 60 воздушных целей, в том числе шесть БЛА Bayraktar TB2, при этом расход зенитных управляемых ракет на одну цель был с коэффициентом 1,1-1,2. Применение комплекса РЭБ «Поле-21» привело к снижению интенсивности вылетов оперативной и тактической авиации ВВС Азербайджана примерно в 1,5 раза, а боевых вылетов БЛА и барражирующих боеприпасов – в 2 раза. При этом зоны барражирования БЛА были смещены вглубь территории Азербайджана на 10-25 км от линии боевого соприкосновения.

In the current situation, the only effective means of fire destruction of UAVs in Armenia were the few Tor-M2KM units. In the absence of external target designation and centralized control of anti-aircraft combat, they were forced to act autonomously, in dispersed combat formations of small units (platoon, battery). In cooperation with electronic warfare systems, the Tor-M2KM anti-aircraft missile systems have achieved significant results: over the past two weeks of hostilities, the average daily losses of UAVs amounted to 6-8 units, and sometimes even more. The calculations of the Tor-M2KM air defense system, as a result of the hostilities, destroyed over 60 air targets, including six Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, while the consumption of anti-aircraft guided missiles per target was 1.1-1.2. The use of the "Pole-21" electronic warfare system led to a decrease in the intensity of sorties of the operational and tactical aviation of the Azerbaijani Air Force by about 1.5 times, and combat sorties of UAVs and loitering ammunition - 2 times. At the same time, the UAV patrol zones were displaced deep into the territory of Azerbaijan at 10-25 km from the line of contact.

Considering, that Armenia have only 1 battery of Tor-M2KM, it is actually good result to shot down more than 60 enemy UAVs, including 6 TB2. They were working as single autonomous vehicles and not networked as a unit to protect each other. Anyway, Tor is proved UAV killer.

Mindstorm wrote:

medo wrote:https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/5998978.html

В сложившейся обстановке единственным эффективным средством огневого поражения БЛА у Армении стали немногочисленные подразделения «Тор-М2КМ». В отсутствие внешнего целеуказания и централизованного управления противовоздушным боем они были вынуждены действовать автономно, в рассредоточенных боевых порядках мелких подразделений (взвод, батарея). Во взаимодействии с системами РЭБ зенитно-ракетные комплексы «Тор-М2КМ» добились существенных результатов: за последние две недели боевых действий среднесуточные потери БЛА составили 6-8 единиц, а иногда и больше. Расчетами ЗРК «Тор-М2КМ», в результате боевых действий было уничтожено свыше 60 воздушных целей, в том числе шесть БЛА Bayraktar TB2, при этом расход зенитных управляемых ракет на одну цель был с коэффициентом 1,1-1,2. Применение комплекса РЭБ «Поле-21» привело к снижению интенсивности вылетов оперативной и тактической авиации ВВС Азербайджана примерно в 1,5 раза, а боевых вылетов БЛА и барражирующих боеприпасов – в 2 раза. При этом зоны барражирования БЛА были смещены вглубь территории Азербайджана на 10-25 км от линии боевого соприкосновения.

In the current situation, the only effective means of fire destruction of UAVs in Armenia were the few Tor-M2KM units. In the absence of external target designation and centralized control of anti-aircraft combat, they were forced to act autonomously, in dispersed combat formations of small units (platoon, battery). In cooperation with electronic warfare systems, the Tor-M2KM anti-aircraft missile systems have achieved significant results: over the past two weeks of hostilities, the average daily losses of UAVs amounted to 6-8 units, and sometimes even more. The calculations of the Tor-M2KM air defense system, as a result of the hostilities, destroyed over 60 air targets, including six Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, while the consumption of anti-aircraft guided missiles per target was 1.1-1.2. The use of the "Pole-21" electronic warfare system led to a decrease in the intensity of sorties of the operational and tactical aviation of the Azerbaijani Air Force by about 1.5 times, and combat sorties of UAVs and loitering ammunition - 2 times. At the same time, the UAV patrol zones were displaced deep into the territory of Azerbaijan at 10-25 km from the line of contact.

Considering, that Armenia have only 1 battery of Tor-M2KM, it is actually good result to shot down more than 60 enemy UAVs, including 6 TB2. They were working as single autonomous vehicles and not networked as a unit to protect each other. Anyway, Tor is proved UAV killer.

A good article from a very competent and knowledgeable military analyst (with informations well beyond those present in public available sources).

As said more times the presence of even only a pair of batteries of export Тор-М2КМ or Панцирь-С1 in the territory of self-proclaimed Artsakh Republic would have been even a real overkill in comparison with the UAV fleet of Azerbaijan.

The problem is that unfortunately the bulk of the conflict was not fought near Armenian border, (where all those downing happened in a very reduced time window in the last 10-11 days of the clash) but mostly in the southern sector, where the already feeble and largely outdated Artsakh air defenses was almost completely absent and where almost the totality of the UAV losses of Azerbaijan was represented by those downed by Iranian air defenses when those drones operated too close to southern border.

This, togheter with wode numerical and technical superiority in mechanized forces by part of Azeri forces, allowed Azerbaijani first echelon to proceed relatively unhindered up to the Şuşa corridor (where them was repulsed with heavy losses bu the Artsakh defence forces ) and that allowed the reconnaissance and special forces operation (the real master piece of the war) that resulted in the conquest of the city of Şuşa to happen.

The only success of the defending Artsakh Forces in the air defense department was achieved by the two batteries of Оса-АКМ deployed in the Stepanakert area.

Naturally also В. Мураховский as i had already said in the  2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war thread, confirm that the resuming of operation of Azerbaijan's UAV, after theirs complete stop for 4-5 days at cause of Поле-21 EW systems (in those days Azerbaijani UAVs found themselves entrapped in the area of coverage of Поле-21 and several was lost)  not happened in the area defended by the system by merely changing theirs area of patrol and operations 25 km within Azerbaijani territory after having integrating the UAV EW database to recognise Поле-21's emission so to avoid to be effectively entrapped in area where it was impossible for them to escape.

This is VERY different from the declaration of some scarcely technically informed military official, that saying that Azerbaijani UAVs had resumed the activity in the conflict area after 5 days of stop and a technical modification, had let someone to believe that those UAVs was operating after a minor upgrade quietly in the area of action of Поле-21 system

GarryB wrote:Some sort of wheeled trailer mounted rack system that holds vertically arranged missiles ready for launch that could be co-located with TOR batteries would be an interesting way of increasing the number of ready to fire missiles.

Smaller lighter cheaper missiles used together to deal with drones that don't require such long range or such a big warhead would be valuable too with the TOR battery scanning the air space and determining what each target would require in terms of missile performance.

These Bulat laser beam riding mini Kornet missiles together with Kornets would be interesting especially in terms of cost, but then a 57mm gun armed vehicle or a vehicle with 30mm cannon firing laser detonated rounds would also be rather valuable for dealing with smaller and lighter and more fragile drones...

Together with jammers and EW devices this sort of problem is going to require a range of different solutions that each can cover different types of problem hopefully in a way that means something can be used to defeat the target no matter what the target and of course part of the management of the air defence system will be to determine which is the most simple and cost effective way of dealing with each threat as it presents itself.

A target 10km away might be better engaged with a super high speed missile like SOSNA that gets there in 12 seconds, or it might not have any cover to hide behind so a Kornet can take its time and fly out and hit it after 30 seconds of flight... it really depends on the price of the missile and the situation.

Your defence might have an outpost there and a guy might be able to hit that drone with a shotgun blast for all we know...

Russia defines conceptual design of new missile for Tor-M2 anti-aircraft system

Ground Forces Commander-in-Chief Army General Oleg Salyukov said in an interview with the Rossiyskaya Gazeta daily in October that Russia was developing a small-size missile for the Tor-M2 surface-to-air missile system to fight tactical drones

Atmosphere wrote:Pantsir and ToR intercept a large number of fast moving threats with high hit probability.Including literally mortar shells. With some of them (namely pantsir) only getting destroyed when caught out of ammo and when confronted by obviously larger forces in terms if how much cost was used.
The media : russian air defense bad.

Iron dome: works against slow easily predictible rockets.
The media starts wanking it.