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    TOR Air Defence system

    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:29 pm

    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Experience shows that the TorM2 or the marine variant is simply better than PanzirM and other things. It's also significantly more expensive. Better radar that Panzir will never have. Latest Russian CPU hardware etc. Best rocket power and best training. Therefore damn expensive.

    A TorM system should function as a Mini Sam system in the future. TorM2U as a center system with a link to S-300 / S-400 / Buk / local PanzirM etc. and a link to a system like TorSM with small missiles but 16 to 32 for small drones. But the better detection of drones that illuminate a target is very important.

    As an export weapon, PanzirM is ok for those who need a lot of defense. It is also about costs. TorM2 is important for protecting high value targets. That should only go to loyal, safe countries and much more to your own army. Production needs to be increased and the number of systems increased significantly and quickly. See Karabakh conflict. See Lakatia Base and the drone danger there. PanzirM is demonstrably suboptimal there.

    TorM2 is like the Mig-31BM, S-400/500 and R-77M1 the most important system protecting Russia. Every ruble must flow into these systems and their development.

    TOR is as much a lame duck as Pantsir as you throw them in the open and alone. Same for Most drones.
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    Post  thegopnik on Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:02 pm

    Love how some pro-US aviation fan boys put a lot of praise into Israel's air force expeditions against SAMs when it should exactly be quite the opposite Rolling Eyes

    The Syrian Christmas attack from two years ago proved that 14 out of 16 missiles were intercepted by Russian claims, while Israel just reported on that same day that most of their missiles did not reach their targets(wonder why). These pantsirs were not even slaved to a long range modern air defense system either

    Involved like 100 aircrafts with Greece doing exercises against S-300PMU1s periodically from time to time, I wonder what those Israeli pilots have thought when they realized when that S-400 in Latakia had them covered all the way to Damascus more than 230kms away regarding that IL-20 incident. I bet they are relieved that only 3 battalions of S-300PMs are just in Damascus instead of the more powerful shit.

    Took over 38,000 combat sorties to defeat Serbian air defenses and even than there was video footage of an S-200 downing a F-16I and that could have happened again until they took cover behind the IL-20 and these aircrafts are reported to be EW capable as well.

    If anything they are just drawing foreign countries to buy their air defenses, Russia does need a country to serve as their hypeman for sales.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:36 am

    TOR is as much a lame duck as Pantsir as you throw them in the open and alone. Same for Most drones.

    You could say the same about any weapon system used incorrectly by retards... they can be used on their own, which if fine if the enemy as is incompetent as you are, but in Russian service it operates as a battery in an IADS and there really isn't an air defence system in its class that even comes close to it.

    Name a western equivalent.

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    medo
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    Post  medo on Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:44 pm

    https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/5998978.html

    В сложившейся обстановке единственным эффективным средством огневого поражения БЛА у Армении стали немногочисленные подразделения «Тор-М2КМ». В отсутствие внешнего целеуказания и централизованного управления противовоздушным боем они были вынуждены действовать автономно, в рассредоточенных боевых порядках мелких подразделений (взвод, батарея). Во взаимодействии с системами РЭБ зенитно-ракетные комплексы «Тор-М2КМ» добились существенных результатов: за последние две недели боевых действий среднесуточные потери БЛА составили 6-8 единиц, а иногда и больше. Расчетами ЗРК «Тор-М2КМ», в результате боевых действий было уничтожено свыше 60 воздушных целей, в том числе шесть БЛА Bayraktar TB2, при этом расход зенитных управляемых ракет на одну цель был с коэффициентом 1,1-1,2. Применение комплекса РЭБ «Поле-21» привело к снижению интенсивности вылетов оперативной и тактической авиации ВВС Азербайджана примерно в 1,5 раза, а боевых вылетов БЛА и барражирующих боеприпасов – в 2 раза. При этом зоны барражирования БЛА были смещены вглубь территории Азербайджана на 10-25 км от линии боевого соприкосновения.

    In the current situation, the only effective means of fire destruction of UAVs in Armenia were the few Tor-M2KM units. In the absence of external target designation and centralized control of anti-aircraft combat, they were forced to act autonomously, in dispersed combat formations of small units (platoon, battery). In cooperation with electronic warfare systems, the Tor-M2KM anti-aircraft missile systems have achieved significant results: over the past two weeks of hostilities, the average daily losses of UAVs amounted to 6-8 units, and sometimes even more. The calculations of the Tor-M2KM air defense system, as a result of the hostilities, destroyed over 60 air targets, including six Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, while the consumption of anti-aircraft guided missiles per target was 1.1-1.2. The use of the "Pole-21" electronic warfare system led to a decrease in the intensity of sorties of the operational and tactical aviation of the Azerbaijani Air Force by about 1.5 times, and combat sorties of UAVs and loitering ammunition - 2 times. At the same time, the UAV patrol zones were displaced deep into the territory of Azerbaijan at 10-25 km from the line of contact.

    Considering, that Armenia have only 1 battery of Tor-M2KM, it is actually good result to shot down more than 60 enemy UAVs, including 6 TB2. They were working as single autonomous vehicles and not networked as a unit to protect each other. Anyway, Tor is proved UAV killer.

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E on Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:16 pm

    medo wrote:https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/5998978.html

    В сложившейся обстановке единственным эффективным средством огневого поражения БЛА у Армении стали немногочисленные подразделения «Тор-М2КМ». В отсутствие внешнего целеуказания и централизованного управления противовоздушным боем они были вынуждены действовать автономно, в рассредоточенных боевых порядках мелких подразделений (взвод, батарея). Во взаимодействии с системами РЭБ зенитно-ракетные комплексы «Тор-М2КМ» добились существенных результатов: за последние две недели боевых действий среднесуточные потери БЛА составили 6-8 единиц, а иногда и больше. Расчетами ЗРК «Тор-М2КМ», в результате боевых действий было уничтожено свыше 60 воздушных целей, в том числе шесть БЛА Bayraktar TB2, при этом расход зенитных управляемых ракет на одну цель был с коэффициентом 1,1-1,2. Применение комплекса РЭБ «Поле-21» привело к снижению интенсивности вылетов оперативной и тактической авиации ВВС Азербайджана примерно в 1,5 раза, а боевых вылетов БЛА и барражирующих боеприпасов – в 2 раза. При этом зоны барражирования БЛА были смещены вглубь территории Азербайджана на 10-25 км от линии боевого соприкосновения.

    In the current situation, the only effective means of fire destruction of UAVs in Armenia were the few Tor-M2KM units. In the absence of external target designation and centralized control of anti-aircraft combat, they were forced to act autonomously, in dispersed combat formations of small units (platoon, battery). In cooperation with electronic warfare systems, the Tor-M2KM anti-aircraft missile systems have achieved significant results: over the past two weeks of hostilities, the average daily losses of UAVs amounted to 6-8 units, and sometimes even more. The calculations of the Tor-M2KM air defense system, as a result of the hostilities, destroyed over 60 air targets, including six Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, while the consumption of anti-aircraft guided missiles per target was 1.1-1.2. The use of the "Pole-21" electronic warfare system led to a decrease in the intensity of sorties of the operational and tactical aviation of the Azerbaijani Air Force by about 1.5 times, and combat sorties of UAVs and loitering ammunition - 2 times. At the same time, the UAV patrol zones were displaced deep into the territory of Azerbaijan at 10-25 km from the line of contact.

    Considering, that Armenia have only 1 battery of Tor-M2KM, it is actually good result to shot down more than 60 enemy UAVs, including 6 TB2. They were working as single autonomous vehicles and not networked as a unit to protect each other. Anyway, Tor is proved UAV killer.

    If they had used it earlier and always kept it active. I say so, the only effective means is Tor. Syria also needs Tor!
    Russia has to ramp up Tor production and always hang a second VLC on the back for more missiles.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:42 pm

    medo wrote:https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/5998978.html

    В сложившейся обстановке единственным эффективным средством огневого поражения БЛА у Армении стали немногочисленные подразделения «Тор-М2КМ». В отсутствие внешнего целеуказания и централизованного управления противовоздушным боем они были вынуждены действовать автономно, в рассредоточенных боевых порядках мелких подразделений (взвод, батарея). Во взаимодействии с системами РЭБ зенитно-ракетные комплексы «Тор-М2КМ» добились существенных результатов: за последние две недели боевых действий среднесуточные потери БЛА составили 6-8 единиц, а иногда и больше. Расчетами ЗРК «Тор-М2КМ», в результате боевых действий было уничтожено свыше 60 воздушных целей, в том числе шесть БЛА Bayraktar TB2, при этом расход зенитных управляемых ракет на одну цель был с коэффициентом 1,1-1,2. Применение комплекса РЭБ «Поле-21» привело к снижению интенсивности вылетов оперативной и тактической авиации ВВС Азербайджана примерно в 1,5 раза, а боевых вылетов БЛА и барражирующих боеприпасов – в 2 раза. При этом зоны барражирования БЛА были смещены вглубь территории Азербайджана на 10-25 км от линии боевого соприкосновения.

    In the current situation, the only effective means of fire destruction of UAVs in Armenia were the few Tor-M2KM units. In the absence of external target designation and centralized control of anti-aircraft combat, they were forced to act autonomously, in dispersed combat formations of small units (platoon, battery). In cooperation with electronic warfare systems, the Tor-M2KM anti-aircraft missile systems have achieved significant results: over the past two weeks of hostilities, the average daily losses of UAVs amounted to 6-8 units, and sometimes even more. The calculations of the Tor-M2KM air defense system, as a result of the hostilities, destroyed over 60 air targets, including six Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, while the consumption of anti-aircraft guided missiles per target was 1.1-1.2. The use of the "Pole-21" electronic warfare system led to a decrease in the intensity of sorties of the operational and tactical aviation of the Azerbaijani Air Force by about 1.5 times, and combat sorties of UAVs and loitering ammunition - 2 times. At the same time, the UAV patrol zones were displaced deep into the territory of Azerbaijan at 10-25 km from the line of contact.

    Considering, that Armenia have only 1 battery of Tor-M2KM, it is actually good result to shot down more than 60 enemy UAVs, including 6 TB2. They were working as single autonomous vehicles and not networked as a unit to protect each other. Anyway, Tor is proved UAV killer.



    A good article from a very competent and knowledgeable military analyst (with informations well beyond those present in public available sources).

    As said more times the presence of even only a pair of batteries of export Тор-М2КМ or Панцирь-С1 in the territory of self-proclaimed Artsakh Republic would have been even a real overkill in comparison with the UAV fleet of Azerbaijan.

    The problem is that unfortunately the bulk of the conflict was not fought near Armenian border, (where all those downing happened in a very reduced time window in the last 10-11 days of the clash) but mostly in the southern sector, where the already feeble and largely outdated Artsakh air defenses was almost completely absent and where almost the totality of the UAV losses of Azerbaijan was represented by those downed by Iranian air defenses when those drones operated too close to southern border.

    This, togheter with wode numerical and technical superiority in mechanized forces by part of Azeri forces, allowed Azerbaijani first echelon to proceed relatively unhindered up to the Şuşa corridor (where them was repulsed with heavy losses bu the Artsakh defence forces ) and that allowed the reconnaissance and special forces operation (the real master piece of the war) that resulted in the conquest of the city of Şuşa to happen.

    The only success of the defending Artsakh Forces in the air defense department was achieved by the two batteries of Оса-АКМ deployed in the Stepanakert area.

    Naturally also В. Мураховский as i had already said in the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war thread, confirm that the resuming of operation of Azerbaijan's UAV, after theirs complete stop for 4-5 days at cause of Поле-21 EW systems (in those days Azerbaijani UAVs found themselves entrapped in the area of coverage of Поле-21 and several was lost) not happened in the area defended by the system by merely changing theirs area of patrol and operations 25 km within Azerbaijani territory after having integrating the UAV EW database to recognise Поле-21's emission so to avoid to be effectively entrapped in area where it was impossible for them to escape.

    This is VERY different from the declaration of some scarcely technically informed military official, that saying that Azerbaijani UAVs had resumed the activity in the conflict area after 5 days of stop and a technical modification, had let someone to believe that those UAVs was operating after a minor upgrade quietly in the area of action of Поле-21 system Rolling Eyes

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:28 am

    Some sort of wheeled trailer mounted rack system that holds vertically arranged missiles ready for launch that could be co-located with TOR batteries would be an interesting way of increasing the number of ready to fire missiles.

    Smaller lighter cheaper missiles used together to deal with drones that don't require such long range or such a big warhead would be valuable too with the TOR battery scanning the air space and determining what each target would require in terms of missile performance.

    These Bulat laser beam riding mini Kornet missiles together with Kornets would be interesting especially in terms of cost, but then a 57mm gun armed vehicle or a vehicle with 30mm cannon firing laser detonated rounds would also be rather valuable for dealing with smaller and lighter and more fragile drones...

    Together with jammers and EW devices this sort of problem is going to require a range of different solutions that each can cover different types of problem hopefully in a way that means something can be used to defeat the target no matter what the target and of course part of the management of the air defence system will be to determine which is the most simple and cost effective way of dealing with each threat as it presents itself.

    A target 10km away might be better engaged with a super high speed missile like SOSNA that gets there in 12 seconds, or it might not have any cover to hide behind so a Kornet can take its time and fly out and hit it after 30 seconds of flight... it really depends on the price of the missile and the situation.

    Your defence might have an outpost there and a guy might be able to hit that drone with a shotgun blast for all we know...
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    Post  TMA1 on Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:03 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    medo wrote:https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/5998978.html

    В сложившейся обстановке единственным эффективным средством огневого поражения БЛА у Армении стали немногочисленные подразделения «Тор-М2КМ». В отсутствие внешнего целеуказания и централизованного управления противовоздушным боем они были вынуждены действовать автономно, в рассредоточенных боевых порядках мелких подразделений (взвод, батарея). Во взаимодействии с системами РЭБ зенитно-ракетные комплексы «Тор-М2КМ» добились существенных результатов: за последние две недели боевых действий среднесуточные потери БЛА составили 6-8 единиц, а иногда и больше. Расчетами ЗРК «Тор-М2КМ», в результате боевых действий было уничтожено свыше 60 воздушных целей, в том числе шесть БЛА Bayraktar TB2, при этом расход зенитных управляемых ракет на одну цель был с коэффициентом 1,1-1,2. Применение комплекса РЭБ «Поле-21» привело к снижению интенсивности вылетов оперативной и тактической авиации ВВС Азербайджана примерно в 1,5 раза, а боевых вылетов БЛА и барражирующих боеприпасов – в 2 раза. При этом зоны барражирования БЛА были смещены вглубь территории Азербайджана на 10-25 км от линии боевого соприкосновения.

    In the current situation, the only effective means of fire destruction of UAVs in Armenia were the few Tor-M2KM units. In the absence of external target designation and centralized control of anti-aircraft combat, they were forced to act autonomously, in dispersed combat formations of small units (platoon, battery). In cooperation with electronic warfare systems, the Tor-M2KM anti-aircraft missile systems have achieved significant results: over the past two weeks of hostilities, the average daily losses of UAVs amounted to 6-8 units, and sometimes even more. The calculations of the Tor-M2KM air defense system, as a result of the hostilities, destroyed over 60 air targets, including six Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, while the consumption of anti-aircraft guided missiles per target was 1.1-1.2. The use of the "Pole-21" electronic warfare system led to a decrease in the intensity of sorties of the operational and tactical aviation of the Azerbaijani Air Force by about 1.5 times, and combat sorties of UAVs and loitering ammunition - 2 times. At the same time, the UAV patrol zones were displaced deep into the territory of Azerbaijan at 10-25 km from the line of contact.

    Considering, that Armenia have only 1 battery of Tor-M2KM, it is actually good result to shot down more than 60 enemy UAVs, including 6 TB2. They were working as single autonomous vehicles and not networked as a unit to protect each other. Anyway, Tor is proved UAV killer.



    A good article from a very competent and knowledgeable military analyst (with informations well beyond those present in public available sources).

    As said more times the presence of even only a pair of batteries of export Тор-М2КМ or Панцирь-С1 in the territory of self-proclaimed Artsakh Republic would have been even a real overkill in comparison with the UAV fleet of Azerbaijan.

    The problem is that unfortunately the bulk of the conflict was not fought near Armenian border, (where all those downing happened in a very reduced time window in the last 10-11 days of the clash) but mostly in the southern sector, where the already feeble and largely outdated Artsakh air defenses was almost completely absent and where almost the totality of the UAV losses of Azerbaijan was represented by those downed by Iranian air defenses when those drones operated too close to southern border.

    This, togheter with wode numerical and technical superiority in mechanized forces by part of Azeri forces, allowed Azerbaijani first echelon to proceed relatively unhindered up to the Şuşa corridor (where them was repulsed with heavy losses bu the Artsakh defence forces ) and that allowed the reconnaissance and special forces operation (the real master piece of the war) that resulted in the conquest of the city of Şuşa to happen.

    The only success of the defending Artsakh Forces in the air defense department was achieved by the two batteries of Оса-АКМ deployed in the Stepanakert area.

    Naturally also В. Мураховский as i had already said in the  2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war thread, confirm that the resuming of operation of Azerbaijan's UAV, after theirs complete stop for 4-5 days at cause of Поле-21 EW systems (in those days Azerbaijani UAVs found themselves entrapped in the area of coverage of Поле-21 and several was lost)  not happened in the area defended by the system by merely changing theirs area of patrol and operations 25 km within Azerbaijani territory after having integrating the UAV EW database to recognise Поле-21's emission so to avoid to be effectively entrapped in area where it was impossible for them to escape.

    This is VERY different from the declaration of some scarcely technically informed military official, that saying that Azerbaijani UAVs had resumed the activity in the conflict area after 5 days of stop and a technical modification, had let someone to believe that those UAVs was operating after a minor upgrade quietly in the area of action of Поле-21 system Rolling Eyes


    fascinating and awesome post! respekt

    yeah the azeri/turk propaganda is asinine. western media of course picked up on it. what most westerners dont know is we were aiding the turks/azeris and we even have RAND corporation white papers which discussed plans for this whole proxy skirmish many months in advance (https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3063.html) the gall of these bastards they dont even hide it.

    the tor complex is the single greatest shorad ever developed. it is pretty much known to be the only massively effective uav killer. nothing else comes close to it. Smile

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E on Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:02 am

    GarryB wrote:Some sort of wheeled trailer mounted rack system that holds vertically arranged missiles ready for launch that could be co-located with TOR batteries would be an interesting way of increasing the number of ready to fire missiles.

    Smaller lighter cheaper missiles used together to deal with drones that don't require such long range or such a big warhead would be valuable too with the TOR battery scanning the air space and determining what each target would require in terms of missile performance.

    These Bulat laser beam riding mini Kornet missiles together with Kornets would be interesting especially in terms of cost, but then a 57mm gun armed vehicle or a vehicle with 30mm cannon firing laser detonated rounds would also be rather valuable for dealing with smaller and lighter and more fragile drones...

    Together with jammers and EW devices this sort of problem is going to require a range of different solutions that each can cover different types of problem hopefully in a way that means something can be used to defeat the target no matter what the target and of course part of the management of the air defence system will be to determine which is the most simple and cost effective way of dealing with each threat as it presents itself.

    A target 10km away might be better engaged with a super high speed missile like SOSNA that gets there in 12 seconds, or it might not have any cover to hide behind so a Kornet can take its time and fly out and hit it after 30 seconds of flight... it really depends on the price of the missile and the situation.

    Your defence might have an outpost there and a guy might be able to hit that drone with a shotgun blast for all we know...

    You can take a Tor-M2DT system and hang a trailer on the back with the PanzirM2 on Panzir-SA based on the DT-30PM, without Panzir radar, with a marine PanzirM cannon. So you have a team of three vehicles. Only the loader would have to be adjusted for both. With this you have covered near, medium and long areas.

    Such a combo would be nearly insurmountable without a massive satiety attack.

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