Talking bollocks thread #3

UZB-76 wrote:Always ppl bitch about India this, India that while mighty Russia literally simps for pro-western countries like Israel and, Turkey..

GarryB wrote:

Not at all... some of their products are quite good... my problem is the way the start wars for fun and the way they treat other countries... they have no respect for any other country and while holding other countries to high moral and ethical standards ignore them regarding their own actions.

They are not a good friend.

I can't make India do anything and I wouldn't even if I could... just saying your future is not with the west as it is at the moment.

You talk about me being too western, while you apply western ideas of honour and integrity...

The US makes an F-35 to kill people. Every country has spies and would like access to look at that weapon system... sounds like some Chinese got hold of a lot of secret information about that plane. Ironically their copy probably has fewer problems than the American version but is probably also less capable because you can't copy instruments and sensors and engines from plans, unless they have full production plans with materials and methods of manufacture included... which I doubt.

The Chinese copied German naval diesel engines... when the Germans stopped selling them to Russia then Russia bought some from China only to find they were terribly unreliable... it is easy to take something apart and copy all the parts and make several copies and then assemble all the parts together, but do you match the parts exactly... are they the same hardness, are the correct materials being used in the right alloys. The Chinese copies in this case broke down... it is likely they had parts that needed to be harder or softer or made of different alloys so they wouldn't wear so quickly... it would be something to work on over time to get right.

The Chinese want to make their own engines,  the Russians just wanted engines quick so the bought the only alternative available at the time, but now they have developed their own versions of the German engines... presumably testing the alloys and metallurgy to make sure their copies are as reliable as the german models.... building them themselves has slowed things down but now they have engines in that class they can sell on the open market and they can take the time to improve performance and of course it is going to be cheaper than German made models... it was a serious mistake for Germany to stop selling engines, but politics was more important it seems.

You can claim Russia copied the German engines and they did, but they only did it because they already had boats needing the engines and germany stopped selling them. Scrapping the ships or redesigning the ships and then developing new engines would be expensive and take too much time and they would still be developing new engines...  engines in that size and weight and power would be useful for other things if they were making them for themselves...

Have you ever designed anything professionally?

I am not worried about India getting hardware that is not very good, I have not problem with their engineers, it is their managers and politicians that over charge you and want you to get into a fight with China to weaken both potential rivals. As long as you are buddies with the US they will do what they do to everyone... hold you back... the US is the first world... the second world used to be the commies... similar technology but communist ideology so not seen as a great commercial threat. The third world is everyone else... countries that lack technology but generally have resources that are to be exploited but not allowed to get to second or first world status because we don't want challengers to our hegemony...

Russia wants to trade and not tell India what to do and certainly not turn India and China against each other for entertainment and exploitation.

Can lead a horse to water...

Why would they refuse to sell to China if they pay for the technology and follow the rules of the contracts... they have built 6 aircraft carriers in the last few years, and are building destroyers and other ships in large numbers... spending 100 billion to have a very strong air force would make obvious sense... imagine the panic in Japan and the US if China and Russia announced that China would make 1,000 Su-57s in China... even if they use the current engines that would be a formidable force... what would the US do... ramp up production of the F-35 which is so expensive to operate it might kill off a few air forces in HATO, or do they make 3,000 new F-15s... or put the F-22 back into production....

They might want their own radars and other systems to be integrated but for a big order that is no problem.

What are you smoking, the west is working against Russia and China at the moment, and wouldn't start buying Russian stuff even if they needed it.

A couple of countries are buying Sputnik V but only when it is approved... it was the first vaccine made and seems to be the last one they are testing...

Russia needs trade with every country on the planet that will trade... that essentially excludes most of the west, but that is fine there are a lot of other countries who want free and fair and open trade with a country not trying to control them or screw them like the west has been doing for the last few centuries.

How many tejas do they have in service?

China can put up more planes than the Rafales carry missiles... you only have 36 of them...

So enemy it is... join a gang so you are not fighting on your own... maybe Indonesia will join BRCS...

Most of the problems with spare parts was that India has huge bureaucracy, and it ordered spare parts when it needed them... it had no spare parts pool or plan, while the Russian companies made the parts to order and couldn't afford to make enormous numbers of parts and just have then sitting waiting to be ordered.

The solution to any spares or support problems is a sensible support contract... there should be no problems in that area going forward at all.

No, you are a victim of French interests... India wanted to buy the Mirage 2000 production facilities and tooling to make M2ks in India and France refused and demanded they buy the much more expensive Rafale. They wouldn't budge on price either, so India started a programme and set the parameters to be a 10 billion  dollar programme for 126 aircraft. India ended up paying 8.4 billion for 36 Rafales.

And it isn't the same as the Gorshov sale where the price of the ship went from 750K to 1.75 billion. They could have stuck to the original price and kept the old pipes and wiring and India would have ended up with a real dog.

(note the other 750K was for 14 MiG-29KR and Ka-31 AEW helicopters and also SAR helicopters too.... essentially the air wing.)

Sanction proof as long as you keep spending 240 million per aircraft...

Ignoring history means you are doomed to repeat past mistakes.

It was the French that drove that assassination of a country... I assumed you would have noticed because they used Rafales to do it.

The French used to be an ally to Gadaffi... and sold them stuff too.

More like double that... and I love how you brush off a 4th gen fighter costing more than a 5th gen one...

GarryB wrote:

A variety of opinions being presented is healthy- I hope this forum is independent & isn't suppose to be a propaganda piece for any 1!

Very true, but if you are linking information from a propaganda centre like radio free anything perhaps mentioning it is from a foreign agent propaganda source funded by the US government might need to be a thing... they started it...

@Lancelot and KVS, were those posts supposed to go somewhere else?

GarryB wrote:

No, you are a victim of French interests... India wanted to buy the Mirage 2000 production facilities and tooling to make M2ks in India and France refused and demanded they buy the much more expensive Rafale. They wouldn't budge on price either, so India started a programme and set the parameters to be a 10 billion  dollar programme for 126 aircraft. India ended up paying 8.4 billion for 36 Rafales.

And it isn't the same as the Gorshov sale where the price of the ship went from 750K to 1.75 billion. They could have stuck to the original price and kept the old pipes and wiring and India would have ended up with a real dog.

(note the other 750K was for 14 MiG-29KR and Ka-31 AEW helicopters and also SAR helicopters too.... essentially the air wing.)

Sanction proof as long as you keep spending 240 million per aircraft...

It was the French that drove that assassination of a country... I assumed you would have noticed because they used Rafales to do it.

The French used to be an ally to Gadaffi... and sold them stuff too.

100 to 120 mil per plane that included some other things in the package is not that bad of deal, sure it is premium but worth it as it is marked for nuclear deterrent.

US telling you not to buy S-400... what is Russia telling you not to buy? Apaches?, C-17?, Chinook helicopters?... none of the above...

He didn't ask for help, so why would anyone expect Russia to poke its nose in?

Russia took action when asked and prevented more of NK changing hands... in fact I would say the problem seemed to be it was Azerbaijan vs NK and Armenia seemed to try to keep out of it, so in that sense the Russians probably did more than the Armenian military in that conflict... not counting Armenian volunteers of course.

You are not getting it though... Russia is happy to sell their existing technology for Indian to make and own and perhaps further develop. They are also open to joint ventures to make stuff neither side already has or to improve something Russia already has... Brahmos is just a Yakhont upgraded, Su-30MKI is just an upgraded Su-30M, but India have made those products theirs.

List the joint ventures and development programmes with France and the US....

But to you India needs to get away from Russia and become better buddies with the two countries that are not interested in India making modern stuff...

Hahaha, of course, the problem is Russia turning away from India and not India getting into bed with the US who is demanding India stop dealing with Russia or China...

You talk about India going its own way and then talk about buying C-17s at half a billion dollars each!!!!
You could have put some funds up and said to Russia that you want to produce Il-476s in India and made hundreds of them for that sort of money... but you would also be making them yourself which you claim is important.
Su-30MKIs are cheaper than Rafales and you are making the Flankers yourself which should make it more expensive...

OK so lets say the economic problems of the 1990s created problems for getting spares... if that is going to make Russia a bad choice for future purchases then surely the US funding and supporting Pakistan up to and including sending their navy to help Pakistan in conflicts against India might be a bit of a black mark against being friends with them...

Russia has sold some Hip helicopters to Pakistan and some BTR-80s too, but they have never sent a carrier group to support any of their attacks on India AFAIK.

The Turkish shoot down of the Su-24 was a surprise sneak attack from behind... an Su-35 might have survived it but at that stage they didn't have any there... ISIS doesn't have any fighter aircraft and they weren't expecting Turkey to act as such.

   
That is true, but it doesn't make any difference... the only problem with heavy fighters is that they are expensive, the advantage of medium fighters is that they are cheaper so you can buy more. A medium fighter more expensive than a heavy fighter is a problem.

India has rejected the Su-57... said it wasn't good enough to invest in...

Medium fighters are generally much cheaper so they can be bought and used in much larger numbers than the bigger heavier fighters.

The Russians are not even going for light fighters and just have heavy and mediums.

When you are paying 3-4 times more for your medium fighter it makes sense to drop the medium fighter and just buy more heavy fighters.

In context it is like the F-22 costing 250 million per aircraft but the F-35 costing 750 million per aircraft... sure they are different and offer different skills and potential but it just makes sense buying more F-22s than spending more on a smaller lighter and generally less capable fighter.

But then as you say the US has plenty of money to waste so why not waste it... why not indeed.

GarryB wrote:
They only bought 36... they clearly can't afford.

We keep getting told Turkey is poor and corrupt... they ordered 100 F-35s...

But at least they were making wings for F-35s so they were making money in the deal...

LMFS wrote:

Gomig-21 wrote:You don't think the Indian announcement had a shred of accountability as to the opinions of the stealthy capabilities of the Su-57.  Imagine the thing is completely invisible in the end LOL!  That would throw a super heavy pipe wrench at everyone!

As far as I know there was no official that had the courage of putting his name behind that obvious defamatory stunt, if really leaked by the government it was rather a way of saving face out of a program they could neither afford nor make use of. The fact that the Su-57 has travelled already twice to Syria without any "partner" noticing it should already tell people that the plane is no piece of junk RCS-wise and in terms of the potential as a platform and the qualities of the airframe, it is essentially 5.5 - 6G. If India did really think it is ok with their embarrassing Tejas but they are too good for sharing IP and production rights for a plane of the PAK-FA bloodline, then I admit I don't understand the parameters of their logic.

GarryB wrote:

Always ppl bitch about India this, India that while mighty Russia literally simps for pro-western countries like Israel and, Turkey..

India is about to get rear ended by the US in their jihad against China, because cold wars and conflicts like that are expensive and dangerous and no one actually ever wins.

It is just an enormous waste of time and money and energy, but it is Indias choice...

Russia has to negotiate with Israel and Turkey to do what they are doing in Syria... I don't understand the word simps or what is is an abbreviation for or slang for, but what Russia is doing in Syria really isn't in Israel or Turkeys interests from an American perspective... clearly the Russian are skilled diplomats, but they don't normally resort to telling countries what to do... like the west does.

New Zealand has been receiving a lot of flak from the UK and US and Australia for not being anti China enough... not sure what we have done in our past history that allows us to tell China what to do... especially our terrible treatment in the past of Chinese immigrants... we even had a Chinaman tax to try to stop them bringing their families over.

Seems to be the hypocrites that are sitting in the comforts of west and not realizing they act like "Westerner" telling others how to think and what is better for them....

Yes... it is a conspiracy.... I actually absolutely hate India and want her to fail and the US makes mighty super powers of all the countries it takes under its wing like Georgia and the Ukraine and Kuwaite and Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya.... it was only Russian and Iranian interference that stopped Syria being a utopia too... I mean clearly with thousands of different clans and groups fighting Assad... as soon as he was rectally probed and murdered in some street somewhere all those different groups would immediately bond together and form a modern progressive western leaning government with the Syrian peoples needs closest to their hearts.

Or I think India has enormous potential and the US is involving you against China because Russia is not stupid enough to get used by America aganist China... India is plan B... Plan A would be to get Russia and China to have a cold war and blow their budgets in a contest neither could really win which would destroy future development and progress in both Russia and China, but Putin said no... why would Russia impose sanctions on China to help the EU and US who have sanctions imposed on Russia? Obviously it wont.

India on the other hand thinks China isn't its best friend and thinks differently about some things, so of course the US has pounced and will wind up the tension and probably sell India a lot of shit... they need to upgrade their entire navy which means lots of now obsolete ships to get rid of... watch this space.... India will be buying old obsolete US carriers first so they can have Hornets, but they can't use ships with Russian and soviet weapons to support them... they are not compatible so you will have to buy AEGIS cruisers and destroyers and all sorts of shit.... you can forget about making your own stuff... the US will drown out those calls with calls for more US shit...

There is a Russian saying, whoever reaches the top almost always removes the ladder so others can not get there easily

For Russia there was no ladder either... they were cutting their own steps.  It is the US and the colonial west that removes ladders and even rolls barrels down to stop those wishing to follow.

Who do you think is the most moral country and why?

The countries that claim the highest standards of morality have the most blood on their hands... ask assange and snowden and dozens of other people whose crime is revealing criminal activity at the highest government levels and their reward... why would such a moral country as the US want to put such people in prison? Assange revealed Russian secrets too, but compared with the stuff about the US and western criminality it was a non event... he is not wanted in Russia for any crimes.

You have a tendency to bring in US as the center of arguments...

You are getting into bed with them and trusting your future there... why would I ignore their criminal record of partner abuse and murder and rape...

Who do you think is the most moral country and why?

The most moral country talks to countries but does not order them around like the US and her bitches do.

What is this....India is an ancient civilization that has seen all sorts of countries go through it with some chose to remain and some kicked out, they have enough wisdom to recognize and work their interests.....you do not need to be worried.

It has an amazing history and culture and is led by people who are bought and paid for and therefore are not working for the interests of India or the people of India.

Once the claws are fully embedded they are not worth taking out because the damage is already done.

I will summarize in one statement, when you sign an agreement or contract with someone legal or verbal at an individual level then an honest person in a decent society should try to be true to it.

So an honest an decent society does not have a judicial system because everyone is so honest and decent they don't even need a police force...

All societies have people who want something for nothing and will lie and cheat and steal and even murder to get it or keep it.

It is a reflection of the individual rather than the society.

These type of charactertics lets that society grow, what China does is sign but steal....sure copy and steal but respect contracts and other stuff otherwise do not sign them and just steal. This is an insult to Chinese civilization that has contributed so much and a sign of weakness.

Western culture is based on stealing ideas and concepts as well as technology and information... many words in the English language sound silly or are spelt differently because they are foreign...

The words Konichi Wa use english letters to represent something that is not european, but is an approximation...

I did not get to middle age just by not doing anything.

Actually designing something is not that common.... most people don't bother at any age.

I just don't see a point in addressing your examples, I noted the difference between stealing and abiding by a deal in the above quote.

You hypocrite...  India pays the lowest dollar it can get away with on producing Russian stuff... India will negotiate for years... decades on some things, for production rights and ToT, with the future plans of learning to make things for themselves without outside assistance... essentially you want to make Russian stuff to learn how that stuff works and get to a level where you can make your own without assistance.

China was in the same situation and lacked the money or consent for intellectual property rights, but they still wanted the thing so they made their own and that makes them evil in your view.

Amusing.

Funny how western beliefs in terms of ownership work... if I write a song or write a book or make a movie, on paper you need to pay something to me if you want to view or use, and heaven forbid you start printing it or playing it and making money of your own from my work.

If I and a manual labourer and build a bridge or a road these rich song and book and movie writers might drive over that surface every day making their trip to work or their trip home easier and faster and safer but I don't get a cent... I get minimum wage no matter how many I build.

As far as I am concerned if someone copies what I do so what... good ideas are to be shared and used not hidden and protected and sold to the highest bidder who promises never to add to or improve my design...

They know how to run their countries and protect their interests.

They know how to visit islands owned by very rich people where you can do stuff you normally can't get away with and they also know how offshore accounts can be used to hide donations...

No, it is China that can't live with its neighbors historically and in current times. It is not just India as their neighbor....only thing they respect is power.

Poland and the US/EU say the same about Russia...

I will attribute this drivel on your naivity....Russia is no differently treated by West now as it was by Napolean or Hitler or Poles. Only your eyes are colored.

It was seen as an enormous opportunity in the 1990s and treated rather differently... it was vulnerable and naive, but it is hilarious you admit the predatory nature of the west as you slip between the sheets of its dictator...

They will have as many as they want till any foreign components are blocked to them that goes into Tejas and even for that they are stocking up. How many migs Russia has in service and how many Su-34's or 35's Russia started with? All new ones start at 0 or small numbers. You are exhausting....rest is all your imaginary assumption of India licking US boots or some one elses.

I was asking because I didn't know, but your snippy answer suggests **** all are in service and there are problems fixing that... so with 80 odd MiG-29s and 36 Rafales and what... about 300 Flankers... how is India going to deal with large numbers of MiGs and Jags leaving service as they will soon... the 36 Rafales wont even replace the M2Ks... the idea of the MMRCA was a stopgap of an extra 126 planes to fill gaps as aircraft retire... it took ten year longer than expected and resulted in 36 planes being bought... the programme was started for a reason... to fill a need... and it clearly has not filled that need, meaning an even bigger problem and your solution is more Rafales.... the most expensive plane they have in service... nice problem solving skills there buddy.

Ya, so Indians should surrender I guess.

Of course, because there is no alternative to war... obviously...

Russia should do the same because they have less ships and smaller economy than China and US. Try to make a mature argument and I will respond.

Russia is spending 65 billion a year on its military and gets easily the best bang for buck in terms of return on investment, but critically what they are not doing is creating military pacts to counter HATO, because they would end up spending a lot more money making things harder for themselves economically, and escalating tension in a situation where conventional forces would ultimately not make any difference at all anyway.

India has Nukes, China has Nukes... for one to attack the other with the serious intent of destroying the other would be suicide... based on that simple and basic and obvious fact, why not talk to the Chinese about these things... you are acting like a woman... if you don't know what you have done wrong then I am not going to tell you...

BTW Mature argument... obviously the mature thing to do is join the west and try to outspend China in an Arms race because that is the mature thing to do and the most likely thing to succeed... except they probably have more money to spend on weapons than you do... but certainly not more than America does at the moment... but that is just the US Military Industrial Complex getting the most dollars they can get while the US public still believes it is in their interests to piss off every up and coming country in terms of future relations in a world they no longer control by the balls.

Yes they are enemy and one day or other score will be settled if they can't restrain themselves as neighbors.

You might notice I am a fan of Russian and Soviet weapons... India fighting China is not going to destroy Russia, but it will certainly damage India and China... I don't like that and I am saying what I am saying to prevent that but the people making the decisions likely don't visit this forum as often as they used to, so I am reduced to talking to those Kool Aide drinkers who think the US will be a better mother than Russia, because of shared values and all that bullshit that the kids lap up. The irony is that they mention shared values when buttering up India... they also mention human rights when they berate China for this and that, but no mention of human rights or womens rights comes up when they talk to their huge customer in the Middle East... Saudi Arabia... I actually like their morals and ethics, I just hate the flexible way they apply them to friends and enemies... and also now they never view their own actions through such criteria or conditions...

May be India will lose again or win, only cowards go to war to win, brave just fight when it is time to defend something.

War against a neighbour is always a lose, because you can never defeat them completely so they will always be there biding their time waiting to get their revenge, because for them it is you that is the bad guy... strange I know...

Gods sake their plants were growing potatoes during that time. Give yourself a break....

And now they make 5th gen fighters...

Even the Real Russians laugh at your fetish in defending them....you are truly a victim of it:-)

Can't refute, agree and then slip in an insult... were you talking about mature before because your mask has slipped.

Putin even provided military landing rights to bomb afghanistan..

They were bombing the Taleban... the Taleban are not friend of Russia. He also ended those landing rights when the west misbehaved...

.India will never participate in some one elses interests.

HAhahahahahaha... why do you think the US and Australia and Japan are being so friendly... India will be the battering ram they will use to knock China down... of course it wont work.... for the past 20 years they have been trying to hurt Russia and Russia has only gotten stronger and more independent... I dare say China is more deeply tied up in the west than Russia ever was.... it was the west using China as a slave labour sweat shop that made them rich and turned them into a producer of goods... but the US cutting western and international ties with China is going to hurt both sides rather more than the little strings that were cut with Russia, but the blowback is going to be more significant too and I suspect the choice of allies is interesting... the US didn't try to drag HATO into this... they are using local muscle... I wonder if the result might be that the EU ends up having to decide between China and all the trade links from the EU to Asia with all that new money, or the US... being told what to do by a country whose favourite toy is a money printing press.

I guess it is probably necessary for India to help the US... they wouldn't do it on their own and if they don't do it the EU might never grow any balls... it is just a shame India will end up wasting all that money for nothing...

Russia voted for it too...India does not care and they dont participate.

Russia OKed what they were talking about, but what they actually did was nothing like what they asked for... it was a good warning for Russia about Syria.

They are not some cvoluntary organization that exists to solve world problems before solving their own. Get it in your brain....

They are a predatory monster that will kill hundreds of thousands of people and displace millions and destroy entire societies for potential gain... they are the most uncivilised people on the planet despite their airs and graces... Biden described it... ruthless killers with no soul... enjoy.

there are no 5th gen ones in production that are offered to India in that class. India will not buy American front line unless its extreme measure.

The Su-57 is slightly smaller than the Su-30MKIs that you operate now and would likely be cheaper than what the French are charging you... here is one with a MiG-35...

Ok for Russians to get shafted on Mistrals and still vote with them on Libya....do you even think before you point fingers?

Pointing fingers... the Russian vote regarding Libya would have been the UNSC resolution 1973.... March 2011. France shafted Russia over the Mistrals in 2014, but lets believe your version because that makes Russia all powerful because they clearly had a time machine and knew that they were going to get screwed obviously...

Overall deal all incldufing $120 mil max....reasonable for their needs considering how their previous govt depleted fleet.

120 million per aircraft would be 4.32 billion for 36 planes, so India is paying more for Rafales than HATO countries are paying for 5th gen F-35s...

The previous government made them do it did they?

Doesn't deserve a response.....so I get it Rafale needs a Freedom, Liberty and Human Rights batch...certified by Russia or NZ or even better China and US

It is only the west that talks shit about human rights and liberty and freedom... the morons love it... my point is that Gadaffi bought French stuff and they killed him like a dog... they even had him sexually abused before he died it seems... civilised people do that you know... you are going to kill someone... take from them everything that is theirs... their life... their humanity... but lets shove some things up your arse first so when anyone tells the story of your death there will be no profound words... just the fact that he was buggered before he was brutally murdered... how western is that...

My point is India needs to get away from foreign imports and design and build their own.

That would be very healthy, but in practise... the Tejas and the Arjun seem to result in India picking parts they like from foreign companies and assembling them together into something that is not Indian at all.

I never said they need to get away from Just Russia but you being an outsourced Russian patriot always put words that have not been said.

I don't care if they never buy another Russian item of any kind, I would still say China is an enemy if you make them so, and Americas interests in India is in making you so... you are the metal head on the battering ram they want to use to damage China... all you can look forward to is smashing your head against a big heavy door... you might break through and you might not... the US don't care... what they want is that you go through the door as the head of their battering ram instead of walk through a door that is opened by a neighbour for tea and biscuits and a discussion about how to improve trade and living standards in both countries.

But no... I am a Russia troll that wants all countries to kneel before the might of Russia as it destroys the US and the western world and takes command of the world police Team Russia... **** Yeah...

I don't object to alternative lifestyles, and I think everyone should show tolerance, but there is now talk that child molesters might have a disease and should be treated rather than imprisoned...  WOW.

The west is broken... we need another path cut to follow.

Problem is Russia is being pushed, nothing to do with India diversifying....both are entitled to their choice based on their interests. It is not binary for either and both countries are wise enough and udnerstand their relations.

Russia and the US have a history of relations with allies and it is not Russia that demands all ties with the west are cut before they will trade...

More than 70% of Indian weapons are Soviet or Russian, so the relationship is going to continue, but India getting into bed with the US over China will limit what sort of friendship it becomes.

It is cheaper to live in Myanmar, why don't you move?

If you don't love it leave... congrats...

Would Russia send a warship now if India was to fight China?

Probably to sit between you and tell you to not be such easy pawns for the US.

Only if they have no brains they would....

No brains is what would get them to that place in the first place...

Why is it a surprize to Russia?

It was a surprise because Turkey had not indicated before that a willingness to attack aircraft that were killing terrorists on their border.

so its ok but India is a failure.

When the US gets you into a shooting war with China it wont be a surprise.... the failure to see the obvious is not a failure.... it is a conscious decision... maybe the current leadership of India is like the Armenia leader and wanted to lose NK... who knows.

Not just the size, heavy is huge and visible on radar more clearly than a smaller one and takes space in size of bases, fuel, maintenance and lot of other things.

The US B-2 bomber is much bigger and much heavier than the F-35 stealth fighter.... the operational costs for the F-35 are more than for the bomber and I would wager the bomber has a smaller radar cross section too.

..Rafale is 4.5 gen and best configured plane in its class.

Rafale is Frances Su-35... they don't have an Su-57 yet, but they poured everything they could into the Rafale.

The fact that the Su-30MKI is better on most counts... especially purchase price, suggests more Su-30MKIs make more sense than more Rafales.

They rejected joint development to focus on Tejas and build local competency and instead will buy if 57 establishes some deployed time.

They rejected the chance to work on a 5th gen fighter aircraft that they would get a say in the design so they could work on a 4th gen light fighter that might end up being useful or might not...

[quoet]What is their medium? Don't say 35 or 29

Get their citizenship and join their leadership so you can tell them what they should do.

you keep repeating same thing..

Rafale is well designed plane if one can afford....

JohninMK wrote:

GarryB wrote:
They only bought 36... they clearly can't afford.

We keep getting told Turkey is poor and corrupt... they ordered 100 F-35s...

But at least they were making wings for F-35s so they were making money in the deal...

Not the wings Garry, the box section that carried the wings in the fuselage.

Gomig-21 wrote:

LMFS wrote:

Gomig-21 wrote:You don't think the Indian announcement had a shred of accountability as to the opinions of the stealthy capabilities of the Su-57.  Imagine the thing is completely invisible in the end LOL!  That would throw a super heavy pipe wrench at everyone!

As far as I know there was no official that had the courage of putting his name behind that obvious defamatory stunt, if really leaked by the government it was rather a way of saving face out of a program they could neither afford nor make use of. The fact that the Su-57 has travelled already twice to Syria without any "partner" noticing it should already tell people that the plane is no piece of junk RCS-wise and in terms of the potential as a platform and the qualities of the airframe, it is essentially 5.5 - 6G. If India did really think it is ok with their embarrassing Tejas but they are too good for sharing IP and production rights for a plane of the PAK-FA bloodline, then I admit I don't understand the parameters of their logic.

This is the 2nd time I simply asked about India or Pakistan and if the India pullout of the FGFA program and the criticism of its stealth that whomever made out of their people that it ends up creating a huge debate about India that after reading your comment above on the Su-57S thread and then the weird reaction by the other member to both our exchanges (which IMO are/were very realistic) that it would be followed right after that by a couple of fight pages and good ol' Gary shifting the entire convo here to the Bullocks Thread.  

The reality really is that there was only a couple members who took the India thing and sailed with it and caused all this.  Not sure why that fellow was angry at you & me asking if the pullout of the program caused all the additional criticism from a lot of people around the world as to the stealthiness of the Su-57.  I thought it was a very legitimate question/comment that didn't need to be followed by all that unnecessary India's needs.  I do think that because that comment came out after they pulled out of the FGFA is why the rest of the world anti-Su-57ers sailed with it.  That was my point and hard to make it without saying the things I did and glad Russia and Sukhoi don't care and are working on it and ignoring the noise.  Best thing to do.

gbu48098 wrote:Discussion is more about whether India knows more about its security needs and soverign choice to buy whatever it wants and however it spends its money and apparantly in here on this forum that is not ok and subject to India boot licking France while Russia did ass rimming by ordering mistrals and grandly got fucked and then tried again voting with them in destroying Libya. Lot of idiots say lot of things about lot of things....if it changed world opinions then it just shows the ability of people. Countries do not make decisions by reading click baits.....apparantly its hard for this forum users to understand.

lancelot wrote:

gbu48098 wrote:Discussion is more about whether India knows more about its security needs and soverign choice to buy whatever it wants and however it spends its money and apparantly in here on this forum that is not ok and subject to India boot licking France while Russia did ass rimming by ordering mistrals and grandly got fucked and then tried again voting with them in destroying Libya. Lot of idiots say lot of things about lot of things....if it changed world opinions then it just shows the ability of people. Countries do not make decisions by reading click baits.....apparantly its hard for this forum users to understand.

Of course India has the full right to decide what to do with their own money. We are just providing our own opinion about it.
Smart people learn from other people's mistakes. You see Russia getting shafted with the Mistral purchase and you defend the Rafale purchase.  
The French have on more than one occasion cut sales to someone because of pressure. The first example I can think of was the Gulf states pushing them into cutting sales to Israel in the 1970s.

The French are a bit of a gamble in that regard. I suppose at least the French do not block you because you bought something from the competition like the US does.
I can sort of understand the Indian MIC's rationale with regards to the purchase. They expect the French to help them with Kaveri and the AMCA.
There is just one problem. Both will be seriously obsolete when they come out. If they do come out. Heck they already are.

The only realistic alternative would have been to get on one of the already available 5th or 6th generation fighter programs.
No one in their mind would get the F-35 unless they want the US to have a backdoor into their Air Force. For NATO that might be ok. But not for an independent country.
There are all sorts of programs. There is the Su-57, there is the South Korean KF-X, and there is the Japanese F-3. There is the UK/Italy/Sweden Tempest.
The KF-X uses the same GE engine India already has a license for. The F-3 at least has a prototype engine. The Tempest is vapor(*). The Su-57 is an actual flying aircraft.

(*) Rolls-Royce did participate in the F136 engine prototype so at least in that regard it is less behind than the Franco/German abortion which is even more vapor.

If India wants to use what they already have then the KF-X seems like a no-brainer to me. The problem is that would be basically get what the AMCA is supposed to deliver.
If it does deliver. Even then the KF-X will also be a somewhat obsolete aircraft when it comes out.

The F-3 is higher risk because the program is still in its early stages. India already balked at getting into PAK-FA development. So I cannot see F-3 or Tempest being an option there.

To be honest if I had to do this I would just upgrade the Su-30MKI to Su-30MK2 standards. Purchase some MiG-29M aircraft. Wait until the Su-57 second stage aircraft came out.
I would also make a program to manufacture a proper native WVR and BVR air to air missile.

By the time the Su-57 second stage aircraft comes out the other programs will be in a more advanced stage and it will be easier to make a selection.

I think India would do better to focus on getting a single engine aircraft right than compounding on the LCA and going for bust with the twin engine AMCA.

Gomig-21 wrote:This is the 2nd time I simply asked about India or Pakistan and if the India pullout of the FGFA program and the criticism of its stealth that whomever made out of their people that it ends up creating a huge debate about India that after reading your comment above on the Su-57S thread and then the weird reaction by the other member to both our exchanges (which IMO are/were very realistic) that it would be followed right after that by a couple of fight pages and good ol' Gary shifting the entire convo here to the Bullocks Thread.  

The reality really is that there was only a couple members who took the India thing and sailed with it and caused all this.  Not sure why that fellow was angry at you & me asking if the pullout of the program caused all the additional criticism from a lot of people around the world as to the stealthiness of the Su-57.  I thought it was a very legitimate question/comment that didn't need to be followed by all that unnecessary India's needs.  I do think that because that comment came out after they pulled out of the FGFA is why the rest of the world anti-Su-57ers sailed with it.  That was my point and hard to make it without saying the things I did and glad Russia and Sukhoi don't care and are working on it and ignoring the noise.  Best thing to do.

LMFS wrote:

Gomig-21 wrote:This is the 2nd time I simply asked about India or Pakistan and if the India pullout of the FGFA program and the criticism of its stealth that whomever made out of their people that it ends up creating a huge debate about India that after reading your comment above on the Su-57S thread and then the weird reaction by the other member to both our exchanges (which IMO are/were very realistic) that it would be followed right after that by a couple of fight pages and good ol' Gary shifting the entire convo here to the Bullocks Thread.  

The reality really is that there was only a couple members who took the India thing and sailed with it and caused all this.  Not sure why that fellow was angry at you & me asking if the pullout of the program caused all the additional criticism from a lot of people around the world as to the stealthiness of the Su-57.  I thought it was a very legitimate question/comment that didn't need to be followed by all that unnecessary India's needs.  I do think that because that comment came out after they pulled out of the FGFA is why the rest of the world anti-Su-57ers sailed with it.  That was my point and hard to make it without saying the things I did and glad Russia and Sukhoi don't care and are working on it and ignoring the noise.  Best thing to do.

Yours was a legitimate question, but given the evolution of the discussion I am happy Garry took all here to the bollocks thread where it belongs. The little Modi fanboy here got really pissed off that we had the insolence of having our own opinion about certain Indian policies, he can discuss everything and everyone until he turns blue or until his spamming is stopped by the mods, I don't care.

The criticism shown in Indian media was never officially endorsed but also not denied and was allowed to propagate like a wildfire, providing the Western propaganda machine a good amount of ammo to smear the PAK-FA. It provided their leadership an easy way out of a program they could neither fund nor use, but effectively damaged Russian interests and caused quite a lot of discomfort on the Russian side, for no other reason than saving face of incompetent Indian planers. 5th column in Russia exists indeed, but in India it seems to be an order of magnitude bigger and more ingrained in their establishment, will take time to remove it.

There was plenty of anti Su-57 bullshit around before that, but it was all speculation and guesswork... like they can't afford to make it on their own or they need money from India to get it into service and other bits of crap.

With India withdrawing from the programme they made up all sorts of extra bullshit reasons... not stealthy enough, current engines are rubbish and new engines are cancelled without Indian money to pay for them, etc etc etc.

Which is why some members get a bit toey because most of it has already been discussed and proven to be bullshit or just speculation that has since been proven wrong.

Not rushing something into service does not mean it is broken or they are too poor to afford it... it just means they are methodically testing it properly and making sure it meets the expected requirements.

I think Putin has made the same breakthrough... after two decades of jumping through hoops to make the west happy he now realises happy is not a state the west understands and if you give them your soul they will just keep taking till nothing is left.... but also that the rest of the world is out there and wanting to grow and develop just like Russia and just like India and China and Brazil, and that simply reaching out to trade is the best first step... not all those countries are using the same method and we shall see how each country gets on... in the Coronovirus thread the US seems to have blocked the export of ingredients for vaccines to India for fear they might deliver it to poor countries who then wont become dependent on much more expensive western made vaccines...  with friends like that... of course it is only business...

Which explains a lot... I thought I was talking to an Indian considering the future of his culture and his country, but I am talking to the borg... that is OK too.

Using each other... how refreshingly honest of you...

Surprise surprise... in amidst all that hate... America stirring the pot... but excusing themselves because everyone is the same right... probably why Russia entered the fray suggesting everyone go forward with guns blasing... oops no they didn't... they suggested everyone stopped escalating the situation and talked.

Which you didn't have to repeat in full by the way... I mean this is the talking bollocks section, but still...

India is not some newborn babe for me to teach or lecture, but the current leaders seem to be well paid for....

Your quote is about Turkey not getting the F-35s they paid for... quoting that and posting this reply it is like you are suggesting Turkey would order more F-35s... somehow I doubt it... that ship has sailed... especially with F-15s going back into production because they are too expensive for AMERICA to operate as their only fighter... America that prints its own money.... crazy...

India is trying to play Russia and France and the US against each other and it really isn't working.

They are now in a position where planes are retiring, the Rafale is too expensive to contemplate buying a lot more of them, and talk of buying F-21 (F-16s) or Hornets which wont be much cheaper off the shelf than Rafale and of course local production will triple the price because that is what local production means.

What India needs to do is to work out what they need in abundance that they have to import now, and to then look at local production or development of that instead of making toys that will end up costing them more than simply buying off the shelf from a few different vendors to ensure supply.

France actually fucked themselves under US orders, or was it the UAE. Russia needed some helicopter landing carriers urgently.... they had seen that even when they were the victim the west would rally against them in any international situation... this revelation occurred in Georgia in 2008.

Helicopter carriers are not hugely complex but are easy to get wrong and you could end up with a real dog, so with any new project you look around for currently available solutions and try to evaluate them to see if they are good enough and if any changes can be made to make them more suitable without making them super expensive or something you have to wait decades for. Mistral was the closest to what they wanted... not perfect but good enough so they ordered two in good faith and constructed parts of them themselves.

Under enormous pressure from the US and also the promise of an enormous order for helicopters from an Arab country... think it was UAE but can't remember, they cancelled the deal.

Russia got its money back and got inside intimate knowledge and understanding of the Mistral design. Much of the stuff installed on the Mistral was Russian so Russia got the money it had invested refunded... well a little more actually because the value of the Ruble had changed in their benefit, but when Egypt bought teh ships they kept a lot of the Russian stuff including the Kamov helicopters, so Russia actually made money on that and enhanced ties with Egypt, which is also a good thing for both countries.

Recently Russia laid down two 40,000 ton helicopter carriers... clearly new designs but obviously will be built on the experience of Mistrals.

They are not going to be available for the next half decade or more but they will likely make four of them at least and possibly six, so that is a few orders France has missed out on... as well as the order for helicopters of course...

The voting in the UNSC on Libya happened in 2011 and the French cancelling the deal happened in 2014...

I quite like the Tegas and think it has potential but they don't seem to have any urgency and it is stagnating, they keep moving the goalposts... by the time it is ready for full serial production it will either be obsolete or use so much brand new technology that it costs more than their heavy fighters...

Russia does not mind selling high tech stuff to India... when they want improvements they pay for joint ventures to improve them so they own the new technology themselves... see Brahmos. They are currently working on very long range AAMs now too...

Just pointing out the truth.... I know it hurts the west for the truth to be considered important, but it makes things better and exposes the bad guys as the bad guys rather than just the pretty and the ugly.

Interesting... you fear a China with Russias technology.... very funny considering the way your country treats Russia despite all that technology and knowhow, not to mention raw resources and mineral and energy wealth... but of course divide and conquer... starts with divide...

Revealing it to be there and lack of interest for the current government to deal with it or even see it as a problem will likely effect future relations between these countries.

Fanboi suggests a naiveness that really does not accurately describe LMFS.

I don't agree with him on a lot of things, but he is no teenager, I would not ignore his opinions or what he has to say, just because I hold different opinions.

GarryB wrote:Revealing it to be there and lack of interest for the current government to deal with it or even see it as a problem will likely effect future relations between these countries.

LMFS wrote:
Exactly, that "multivector" thing cuts both ways and in response to India cozying up to the West, Russia is increasingly friendly to Pakistan and China...

GarryB wrote:
I would rather see India engage the rest of the world... they don't need to cut their relations with the west, though I suspect the act of engaging the rest of the world might lead to the west cutting relations with them.

It is the west that expels diplomats for made up reasons... countries like Russia and China normally do so in response... The Soviet Union continued to sell gas to Europe all through the cold war... a grocer sells groceries, but does not pick and choose who he sells to...

America involves itself, I just mention the link...

Fuelling encouraging and using are not nothing.

The US is involved... that you don't like me mentioning that is more your problem than mine.

Democracy is a popularity contest that is as much won by money spent as it is based on policy or reason.

I live in a democracy... I know plenty of people who don't bother to vote because they know their vote does not count... most politicians do as they please once elected and there is no accountability. Some people vote for all sorts of strange reasons, it really is not the best way of picking a person suitable to lead a country, but then to get elected most are already owned by the rich to get a chance to run... politicians are the figurehead... not the puller of the strings.

So you agree with me that the F-35 is shit, but you say my reasoning is because I hate the US... whatever.

I would expect India using the US ATM is going to lead to more radical changes in the relationships... the US will almost certainly want to kick Russia out of the bed and probably France too...

I am not dictating anything to India, I am voicing my opinion... a bit like Russia voiced its opinion that escalating tensions between India and China will not be solved by India running to the US anti China gang, but by India and China talking and working some shit out.

Not justification, reason. Russia went into the Mistral deal expecting France to honour it, but that changed so Russia had to change plans too. The things the Russians did were because of the things France did.

You know... like take a long period of time making up bullshit stories like Saddam has WMDs and can use them in 45 minutes so we had better attack him now or later on he will be even more dangerous and powerful... but then after the invasion it is proven beyond doubt his so called WMD never existed and it was all bullshit... then justification becomes a factor.... the justification was that Saddam had weapons that were dangerous to the whole world, but when that claim collapsed because it was made up, they jumped to justification number two... Saddam was bad man and Iraq and the region is better off without him... which would never be a reason to invade a country because you would be invading over 150 countries on that criteria.

Your accusation was that Russia supported France after France stabbed Russia in the back... Suggesting Russia is an idiot for helping its enemies,  Chronology shows Russia supported France and then France stabbed Russia in the back, making France the bad guy and Russia the victim.

Their fundamental problem is that they want the first planes they make to be too capable and too everything.... they should start with a simple light capable fighter that can be used as a numbers fighter that is good but not amazing... once they get 100 in service they can look at what is good and what is bad and get it right.... once it is right they can start producing those to replace planes that need replacing and then work on an upgrade where they start stretching the design... once better things are working then upgrade some in service aircraft and test them... if they start with a nice cheap PESA radar, an AESA can be phase two... once they get it right they can update all the existing models with the new radar... or they might find in some places the PESA is good enough.

Russia was happy to sell China Su-30MK2 aircraft that were better than most of the Su-27s they were flying in their own air force...

There is good and bad in everyone, a good person is just someone who does not let out the bad, but circumstances can change that.

Sounds like you think life is fair, plenty of people make mistakes all their lives and live to a ripe old age, and of course the people who only ever make one mistake and it ends them.

An infestation of the borg is difficult to expunge... especially when those infected claim there is no problem so do nothing.

He has a track record here and I respect him as a person. You are new. All I am saying.

India is entitled to be a fucking idiot, I am entitled to point out the road they are being led down is good for the US but bad for everyone else involved... but they are free to do it anyway.

The principle that you are entitled to make your own decisions would not eliminate contractictions.... India is currently part of BRICS, which is a grouping of countries the US is not part of... the current situation is the US trying to entice a member of BRICS to pick a fight and go to war with another member of BRICS... America is trying to break up an opposing gang by promoting infighting and hostility... ASEAN or HATO are gangs too, but the US has created its own anti BRICS gang to try to destroy it...

The master bully is claiming China is a bully and offering to help India deal with them... a bit like cancer telling you you have diabetes and if you start smoking 20 packets of cigarettes a day then Diabetes wont kill you...

Never said it was. I have no problem with them buying some. Complaints that 2.5 billion for an operational aircraft carrier with an air group included, or that the Su-30MKI costs too much to buy or upgrade... especially when it is the French and Israeli components that actually make it so expensive, then I feel the need to point out that 70% of their inventory might be Soviet and Russian equipment but 80% of the money they spend on weapons does not go to Russia.

They bought Chinook helicopters for a price that they could have bought dozens of Russian helicopters for the price of one American helicopter, but price only ever seems to be an issue with Russian stuff.

You said India needed Rafales to defend against China... a conflict the US is pushing for.

There are other factors, but the US is pushing for this too.

The US is already using political threats to influence Indias choice, the US is part of the equation and cannot be ignored.... no matter how much you would like otherwise.

I have no obviously fundamentally better ideas, but certainly I think alternatives should be tried...

The concept made sense, but the US MIC is not for defending the US or making America great, or even putting good tools in the hands of US military personnel... it is about profit and not being cancelled by any part of government no matter which of the two parties control them.

In that sense it was a spectacular success... no matter how many Americans die, or how many trillions of dollars it soaks up that could have given every american fully funded healthcare.

Countries often do very stupid things that run counter to their interests all the time.

If the US and the west didn't try to topple Assad Russia and Iran would not be much more important forces in the region like they are... Russian military gear would remain largely untested in combat, and all the new stuff they are working on would have less reason to be made... less reason to spend the money.

India is actually using the US in this case... if things get worse the US is going to need another huge country with an enormous population of low cost workers to make their shit and India is probably hoping it will be India... but I rather suspect it will be Bangledesh... what they don't realise is that it is global companies that decide, not the US government... and normally the opportunities are opened with new laws made by government but politicians are idiots and most only let big business write the laws in return for lots of bribe money and have little idea of what they are doing anyway.

Only an idiot would help someone who just stabbed them in the back with something that is not in their interests to support

British TV show called "Yes Minister", with follow up show called "Yes, Prime Minister". Very education and very funny... two things I would never think to say normally about British politics.

India needs to step up, but the US is not going to help them. It is ridiculous when you look at the permanent members of the UNSC... how white and european it is... why is France and the UK there and India is not?

Sweeden is predicted to be mainly islamic by 2045, and so is much of Europe.....depends on the context

Personally I think American culture is attractive... it makes sense and sounds good, but then you look under the skin and you really only seem to be like everyone else but you just look down your nose at everyone else for not meeting your high standards... which you never achieve either.

Seems to me you want the 1950s back... which makes sense... you didn't just have all your cities destroyed in WWII, though getting to rebuild cities would be an opportunity to fix things and make them better I suppose, but it is hard with a significant percentage of your male population dead.

NOTE I will not force anyone to apologise, because a forced apology is not worth anything to anyone.

An apology however will effect the lengths or even the necessity for any bans to be handed out.

We don't need to be buddies and we don't need to agree on anything. We do need to be civil.

And keep in mind we come hear to learn about a subject we are interested in... even the most annoying person could pop up with something you are interested in finding out... imagine if they are on your ignore list.