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    Talking bollocks thread #3

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:19 pm

    @secretprojects

    From what I can tell use of higher temperature turbines is the way to go.  Hence the effort to develop advance ceramic blades and
    other components.   All engines are heat engines and increasing the temperature relative to the ambient is the way to increase their
    efficiency (in the absence of staging such as used in gas power plants).    A higher temperature turbine can have a reduced size and
    still give the same thrust.  

    So I supposed that the bypass ratio can be increased in the same engine dimensions.    But design work has to done to be able to
    shut down the bypass blades when they are not useful.   I have not heard of such designs so maybe they are not practical.
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    Post  limb Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:25 pm

    kvs wrote:From what I can tell use of higher temperature turbines is the way to go.  Hence the effort to develop advance ceramic blades and
    other components.   All engines are heat engines and increasing the temperature relative to the ambient is the way to increase their
    efficiency (in the absence of staging such as used in gas power plants).    A higher temperature turbine can have a reduced size and
    still give the same thrust.  

    So I supposed that the bypass ratio can be increased in the same engine dimensions.    But design work has to done to be able to
    shut down the bypass blades when they are not useful.   I have not heard of such designs so maybe they are not practical.

    There were constant claims on keypublishing that russia was always behind the US in terms of temperature of their jet engines(comparing the temperatures of the F119 and AL-41F), and that the Izd.30 is allegedly 200-300 degrees celsius cooler than the F135. Of course, since the izd.30 and AL-41FN is classified, I dont know how they came to that conclusion.
    marcellogo
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    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 17 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  marcellogo Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:07 am

    secretprojects wrote:
    You are missing the point. The AL-41F is still just a progressively tweaked AL-31F sharing the same basic cycle, stages, etc. Izdeliye 30 is the first 'new' engine.

    A low bypass ratio is essential for highest performance in air-to-air combat, especially supersonic, as well as supercruise. The equations for this are pretty clear and were explored during the FX (F-15) era.  That's one reason AL-31F and RD-33 used lower bypass ratios than the F100, being more comparable to the F404 - this increases thrust to weight ratio at the expense of subsonic efficiency. A higher bypass ratio boosts subsonic cruise range. To go forward you need to look at variable bypass technologies to try to combine the best parts of each, which is where the three stream engine work in the US comes in.

    And you are missing mine.

    Izdeliye 30 would be the new gen one and it would be installed on Su-57 from 2022, it would means that only an handful of Su-57 would have the Al-41, still no need to wait to start production until it would be ready as the two are designed to be swapped also at air base level.
    So, probably only one OCU squadron or regiment would be equipped with it and they would be replaced with the definitive one a.s.a.p.

    You are saying however something completely false: F-100-PW-229 has a lower bypass ratio (0,34:1 to 0,56:1 and 0:49:1 respectively) of both AL-31F and RD-33 while the Al-41 actually increased such value while adopting a larger engine core.
    At the contrary the F404 started with 0,34;1 and F414 lowered this already low value to a meagre 0,25:1.
    So actually russian engines has both a way greater thrust to weight than a WAY larger bypass ratio of the PW-229 AND the F404/414, thus completely denying your baseless affirmations.
    Between the american engines in the legacy fleet only the F110 retained an high bypass ratio, all the rest have gone down the sinkhole.

    New generation ones? F-119 has a bypass ratio of 0,30:1 i.e. between the F404 and the F414 while the F-135 has one of 0,57:1 i.e. practically the same one of Al-31 (0,56) and Al-41 (0,59).
    So I guess Saturn get it right from the very beginning.

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    LMFS
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    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 17 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  LMFS Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:22 am

    marcellogo wrote:
    And thank God, although being perfectly capable of get the Su-57 well into such flying regime it would NOT be optimized for supercruise in the sense the F-119 is: it will still remain a turbofan with an healthy bypass ratio, not a "leaky turbojet" in disguise like the one actually propelling the F-22A and incapable to be installed in anything else or even to operate efficiently in any other flying regime than that...

    Well that is the point, what kind of engine izd. 30 is?

    According to Marchukov, it will have BOTH the highest specific thrust AND preserve the fuel consumption of the AL-31F. There are three options as far as I can see it to achieve that:

    > Relatively high bypass ratio like the AL-31F, in that case how do they surpass F119's specific thrust, which is simply huge?
    > Low bypass ratio like the F119, for supersonic cruise. It has been said many times by official and other serious sources that the izd. 30 is created to be a supersonic cruising engine. But then, how to match AL-31F's SFC?

    So these two options demand Russia to be quite significantly ahead (of the F119 at least) in key technological parameters (OPR, TIT) which are VERY difficult to improve, I cannot compare to F135 since it is not a supercruising engine but leaving the F119 that far behind technology wise  would get US planers apoplectic. I wish I could read some expert's opinion on this, but it is also IMHO quite unlikely because of the technological jump they would need to accomplish in so little time.

    > My favourite option is that izd. 30 is a continuation of izd. 20 and hence a two-stream VCE. Technology was developed quite a few years ago and improving materials, control and aero design would result in a superior motorization for a proper 5G plane, that is, one that can both supercruise really fast and be economical in subsonic flight. The technological parameters would not need to be so extreme and even maybe below F135 actually but still the superior layout would more than compensate for it.

    In any case, US is now forced to move, because only with the few details that have been revealed in the public sphere it seems the F-22 has been kinematically surpassed and of course that means the F-35 will be slaughtered in that regard. How soon they can deploy the adaptive engines will determine for how long they need to live with that new and probably unexpected situation.

    kvs wrote:
    From what I can tell use of higher temperature turbines is the way to go.  Hence the effort to develop advance ceramic blades and
    other components.   All engines are heat engines and increasing the temperature relative to the ambient is the way to increase their
    efficiency (in the absence of staging such as used in gas power plants).    A higher temperature turbine can have a reduced size and
    still give the same thrust.  

    So I supposed that the bypass ratio can be increased in the same engine dimensions.    But design work has to done to be able to
    shut down the bypass blades when they are not useful.   I have not heard of such designs so maybe they are not practical.

    Progress is pursued in every possible development vector, 3D aero design, temperature tolerance of materials, reduction of weight and number of the stages etc., since a 1% improvement in overall efficiency is already really hard to get. That is why the layout is being so actively explored now, because it is simply the only way double digit percentage gains can be achieved. It will also have many beneficial side effects like reducing drag, improving thermal management and others even crazier like creation of ramjet-type engines based on them.

    secretprojects wrote:
    The second stage engines will be ready in a couple of years. That is I think the major reason why we didn't see a big order of the Su-57 any sooner.

    Welcome, nice to see you here. Reading people like flateric and other knowledgeable guys it seems the program got started, well, because they needed to get it going no matter under what difficult conditions. So probably if they had decided to commission it by 2015 like originally claimed, it would have indeed been a half cooked plane, but probably the results with Su-35S and good progress with the Su-57 and its systems made them switch from low risk approach of minimums to a more ambitious one where they bridge some years with 4++ models while they mature the second stage design with the new engines but also actuators, avionics and probably some other systems

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 17 Ris3_e10

    There is nothing better than time to improve technology, so they being able to commission Su-57 later means good savings from not having to buy a very expensive plane earlier, and needing to retrofit way fewer of them to reach second stage. Also less information is revealed to potential rivals, while the platform itself keeps moving relatively fast because all of the new systems being integrated. I find many reasons to praise the overall program management by Sukhoi under difficult conditions and the very wise layout and design philosophy decisions they took early on. The big question mark about the plane is of course the avionics + systems performance that can make the difference between a good plane or an excellent one, but I think the details about them will remain unknown for many years.


    Last edited by LMFS on Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 17 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  secretprojects Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:14 am

    thegopnik wrote:

    No way did you just create an account here just to tell me that, or are you actually planning on having an account here? Either way nice having you here rather if it will be short term or not but I still have good reasons to suspect you as such and I was already done seething  about it. Moderators or admins here can feel free to move this politcal board shit to another thread because I am about to speak my mind to the point it might escalate instead of keeping it brief here.

    I'm still very interested in Soviet era aviation (MiG-23 for example) so it's quite likely I might find some interesting discussions. I have account on Key, Sinodefence, F-16[dot]net, China Defence and others and visit semi-regularly - I actually spend more time visiting Russian language sites than English ones for Soviet era stuff.


    thegopnik wrote:If I was to rate non-bias forums with non-bias moderators this forum and space battle forum(the war room) are on my top list to join. My account could have lasted way longer at space battle forum but arguements with Space X fans and other political shit threads got me banned because moderators and admins are majorly left wing supporters(like Quora) that arguing with them and other users will give you the,"arguing in bad faith" accusation with a temperary ban.

    Criticism on you and your moderators: Example Papadragon was currently free to speak his mind on shitting on Roscosmos multiple times on this forum and AFAIK moderators and alot of users are pissed about it but they did not ban his account your forum on the otherhand for example:

    I have no idea who this is, I assume this is a spacebattles reference.

    thegopnik wrote:Dino(he has a bias even though I am cool with him) he was accused of other users on key aero for taking chinas military side too much. Got into an arguement with Pegasus in your forum regarding japanese or chinese aircrafts(if i remember correctly) than he got banned even though I dont see how Pegasus was being a troll or asshole like ultimatewarrior in this forum(which I am surprised he lasted this long here with other users in question) I would welcome him here since his user account is mig29smt at india defense forum he and stealthflanker(Ronny) over there.

    Also him being a moderator at sinodefense is no surprise either so at that point I am wondering why you have not listed any of your moderators having a chinese background.

    I banned pegasus for being annoying, he wouldn't follow the rules even after repeatedly asking. Deino (Andreas Rupprecht, perhaps you'd read some of his many well-regarded books)  had nothing to do with it. I've seen him in person, he is 100% NOT Chinese, he is German, just interested in Chinese aviation and writes about it.

    thegopnik wrote:
    Flateric reminds me too much of Rubick(who is estonian) at spacebattleforum(basically an asshole by nature how I saw him treat other users there besides me)

    Grigori can be less tolerant than me for sure, but he knows his stuff on Russian aerospace etc.

    thegopnik wrote:as you remind me too much of dangman4ever in that same forum.


    Not me - I'm either overscan, secretprojects or (on Key) aerospacetech.

    thegopnik wrote:Also when I started to question your forum having any relation to F-16.net or keyaero I was technically under your radar when I brought up news sources of a internal hypersonic missile for the Su-57 or a 100km missile(october 2022 testing) for the ka-52 which you immediately claim as fake and when I further argue with you on this I get banned.

    You were banned for behaving like an idiot, no conspiracy theory needed. None of the forums you mention have any connection to me, or to each other. Key Publishing was around even before I started my forum in December 2005 and is simply a forum for a UK Aviation magazine and book publisher. I'm just a random aviation enthusiast from the UK. I have no idea who owns F-16.net.

    thegopnik wrote:When keyaero has undergone a transformation although the previous archive forum threads where accessible my photonic integrated radar thread got deleted and I saw a user called keystrokeaero(Gee I wonder who that is) browsing my radar thread at your forum. Besides these few examples(which I have way more) I dont see why glownigger cannot be admins or moderators at forums because at eagle.ru someone speaking with Garrya has a blurred image ID that has shown he works at Lockheed Martin specializing in satellite shit and a image of his laptop browsing eagle.ru forum and a name like secretprojects might encourage people to spill classified info of military projects which I am very sure is your job to see where that said user posted such information. Military related topic forums attract military personnel which attracts possibility of information be spilled, therefore is like a honeypot for intelligence agencies to see.

    Not sure how to answer this. You know eagle.ru forums are a Russian Games publisher's forum, right?  

    I'm just a random aircraft nut. I chose "secretprojects.co.uk" because I wanted to have a forum about never-built aircraft projects directly inspired by the Midland Publishing "German Secret Projects, British Secret Projects, Russian Secret Projects" series and because it sounded cool.

    Sure, by its nature my forum attracts some engineers both current and retired  - but no SPF staff are employed in the aviation industry except Flateric. And I'm the only person who bans users.

    When I first started the forum I'd get a kick out of seeing the number of hits from Lockheed-Martin, Boeing DoD or other networks at times - when RQ-170 went public I got a big burst of hits from LM networks as employees not briefed in to the program visited to see what their company was up to. I've only ever had 3 contacts in 15 years about the contents of the forum, all from book publishers relating to copyright.

    thegopnik wrote: I have criticism for the Su-57 as much as I do for the F-35 but If I posted something like this on F-16.net or your forum I would definetly get banned. Post this here I might get into an arguement with LMFS or probably GarryB. Post this at spacebattle I will get f-16.net level criticism but the admins and moderators will not give a shit since the ones monitoring the war room are more concerned with bad behavior therefore i can argue with 10-20 users until I drop dead. I might consider creating a new account at spacebattle(changing my IP or mac address) but I feel good chilling here, at quora, and some times india defense forum.

    I have no problem with people criticising the F-35. I don't like it much myself. If you are banned from Secret Projects Forum it will be because of one of these:

    1) You broke the rules of the forum
    2) Your posts constantly stir up controversy which disturbs the smooth running of the forum
    3) Your posts are consistently low/no value and /or really annoy me

    In your case, it was mostly your baseless and idiotic accusation that I was a member of some secret pro-US forum cabal that got you banned.


    Last edited by secretprojects on Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:15 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : minor layout issue)
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    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 17 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:37 am

    Get a room you two....  we don't want to read your BS lovers squabbles here.  Suspect

    FWIW, banning people is a bad idea.  If posters continue to post BS, they will get a reputation for being an idiot and they will wither on the vine.  Too often these days, censorship is invoked to delete ideas and views that those in power dislike.  They dress it up of course with pleasant sounding niceties (anti-hate speech, combatting "disinfo") but in reality its all about silencing those who dissent from the orthodox narratives.

    Paradoxically these days, it seems that it is the "free West" who are by far the biggest exponents of censorship, and that is not really surprising given that our societies are entirely controlled by privately-owned elite-capital entities run by our privileged elites, and these people consider effective democracy and free speech to be an existential threat to their continued control.  Big Tech censorship of non-liberal viewpoints is an outstanding example.

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    Post  thegopnik Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:25 am

    .............. Can someone create an account besides me to message overscan at secretprojects.uk. Because some user introduction by another certain user here sounds a little too generic here. I guess its a coincidence that supposedly the admin from another forum to speak about a 3 stream engine compared to a certain user talking about here not too long ago if anyone catches my drift. Not only that but especially the introduction of himself and flateric and someone immediately praising both those users than a response immediately comes after that ......... Suspect

    overscan wrote:I banned pegasus for being annoying, he wouldn't follow the rules even after repeatedly asking. Deino (Andreas Rupprecht, perhaps you'd read some of his many well-regarded books)  had nothing to do with it. I've seen him in person, he is 100% NOT Chinese, he is German, just interested in Chinese aviation and writes about it.

    Yeah yeah I consider Ronny annoying as much as he considers me annoying and if I was moderator or admin I would not ban him at all. The last conversation Pegasus had with Deino was his different interests and I have watched him at india defense forum argue with stealthflanker there(who claims he is ronny, mig-31bm, garrya, kimleeryo, moon_light, eloise at other forums) and both are considered atleast knowledgeable users regarding f-16s and mig-29s. Considering if this is your new created account or not by another user as I am accusing in the above text your forum is North Korea at best.

    overscan wrote:You were banned for behaving like an idiot, no conspiracy theory needed. None of the forums you mention have any connection to me, or to each other. Key Publishing was around even before I started my forum in December 2005 and is simply a forum for a UK Aviation magazine and book publisher. I'm just a random aviation enthusiast from the UK. I have no idea who owns F-16.net.

    Well this idiot(geez your keen on setting rules but don't follow them yourself with insults here  clown ) still got you worked up by just posting news information. If you consider people with opposing ideas as idiots and ban them that just shows the reflection of that forum. Although I do not know why you and flateric got worked up about their hypersonic missiles because the U.S. not too long ago started to created ARMs that are only slightly better than what the Russians have presented since 10+years ago so I do not follow why you and flateric immediately throw doubts about new hypersonic missile projects they create. dunno

    overscan wrote:1) You broke the rules of the forum
    2) Your posts constantly stir up controversy which disturbs the smooth running of the forum
    3) Your posts are consistently low/no value and /or really annoy me

    In your case, it was mostly your baseless and idiotic accusation that I was a member of some secret pro-US forum cabal that got you banned.

    Christ if your complaining about me you have not seen the worst here yet. 2 and 3 (don't know about 1 AFAIK) it sounds more like an echo chamber than a forum and I am not someone to kiss ass to moderators or admins who have different opinions than mine https://forums.spacebattles.com/forums/the-war-room.23/ you can find my banned ass here which I already described why and I have gotten into many arguments far worse than yours or flaterics bitching about my different opinions regarding two missile projects in the war room. but when I strayed away to the politics section that's where my account got banned.

    big gazza wrote:Get a room you two....  we don't want to read your BS lovers squabbles here.

    I think its only going to continue at this rate and when me an another user get heated we each want to have the last word. I already gave a warning to this thread when I responded back to him


    Last edited by thegopnik on Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:13 am; edited 1 time in total
    LMFS
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    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 17 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  LMFS Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:43 am

    This is not the forum and not the thread for this discussion guys...
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    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 17 Empty thegopniks chat about stuff regarding other forums

    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:27 am

    The interim engines are a weak point, but the phase 2 engines could change things around.

    Why do people keep saying that?

    The current engines are just fine... I don't remember any American anywhere saying Iranian F-14s are shit because they are F-14As and have pathetic engines that are OK for strike aircraft (F-111s) but shit for fighter planes.

    the avionics suite looks interesting if overly complicated.

    The Russians tend to use multiple solutions instead of relying on one magic super feature like for instance the US does... so American tanks are 70 tons but not better protected than Russian tanks that are 20 tons lighter but have ERA and APS and SHTORA and Nakidka and all sorts of other technologies they have developed. Equally US fighters have stealth as their most expensive feature... which would be fine if it was 1985, but now the Russians have modern electronics and new radar technology to render it not so effective which makes its enormous cost a joke.

    I'm doubtful that Russia has spent enough in R&D to make something completely comparable to the F-22 and F-35, but I don't think that's the intention.

    Russia doesn't seem to want an F-22 or F-35 type aircraft... they are more interested in self defence than western experts ever give them credit for.

    Even the initial engines have decent performance. I suspect their lifetime is probably not that great though.

    It is a stealth fighter, it is not going to be cheap. Getting world record engine life would be a waste of energy and resources... it would be easier and cheaper to make extra engines... they can be installed in S-70s as they get older too.

    That is I think the major reason why we didn't see a big order of the Su-57 any sooner.

    It is a brand new type of aircraft... there will be no 3,500 aircraft orders for the Su-57 or MiG-35 or Su-35... they don't need such bullshit to hide airframe cost from the people paying the bills.

    It reminds me of people who said the USAF chose the YF-22 over the YF-23 because they wanted an aircraft which looked like a stealthy F-15 and the YF-22 was it.

    Which makes the F-22 a stealthy MiG-25 really...

    That doesn't necessarily mean the sensors will be superior operationally.

    Do they need to be?

    Su-57 is part of a nation wide IADS and with R-37M missiles and their future replacements it looks ideally suited to take down the HATO IADS based on AWACS and JSTARS platforms...

    Do you really think the F-22 having 30km greater radar detection range will make any difference?

    Especially when the Su-57 is using an L band wing mounted detection system together with nose mounted higher frequency sets optimised to detect stealth targets and the F-22 doesn't even have IRST.... and is a high flying sniper expecting to shoot down unaware poorly equipped 4th gen planes at max range.

    Condescending much? How many aviation books have you published? I'd wager fewer than me, even if I've only written one

    Arrogant much... George W Bush has written a book... a childrens pop up book is still a book.

    That is I think the major reason why we didn't see a big order of the Su-57 any sooner.

    Surely a writer of books would know an order for 76 aircraft IS a big order for Russian aircraft.

    The AL-41F is still just a progressively tweaked AL-31F sharing the same basic cycle, stages, etc. Izdeliye 30 is the first 'new' engine.

    And you are missing the point... the Al-41F is still a very good engine and certainly good enough for now.

    They seem to have managed a useful fuel fraction for the aircraft so it does not need gimmicks like super cruise to make it seem useful.

    So, probably only one OCU squadron or regiment would be equipped with it and they would be replaced with the definitive one a.s.a.p.

    The older engines removed from the Su-57s already produced with the older engines could be sent to the S-70 factory and installed on those drones...

    FWIW, banning people is a bad idea. If posters continue to post BS, they will get a reputation for being an idiot and they will wither on the vine. Too often these days, censorship is invoked to delete ideas and views that those in power dislike. They dress it up of course with pleasant sounding niceties (anti-hate speech, combatting "disinfo") but in reality its all about silencing those who dissent from the orthodox narratives.

    I agree... even smart people can be idiots and annoying sometime, and idiots is secret code for someone who believes something I don't agree with... pretty soon you end up like the US... half the population votes for one party and the other half votes for the other but each thinks the others are racist or idiots or just wrong... you end up not talking or communicating and never seeing alternative view points which essentially turns you into a nazi... you are the superior human and people who don't agree with you are wrong... how many Hilary supporters thought she was going to lose... because Trump was an idiot and anyone who voted for him was an idiot. But by the definition you are saying people who don't like Hilary Clinton are idiots... many people who voted for Trump didn't want Trump they just really didn't want Hilary... are they still idiots... but most importantly how would you know if you refuse to talk to them?

    This is not the forum and not the thread for this discussion guys...

    In the process of splitting now.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:44 am

    You may continue your discussions here... anything Su-57 related should go in that thread however... I am about to transfer the Su-57 related messages above back to that thread.

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    Post  secretprojects Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:06 am

    Cheers, Garry.
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    Post  secretprojects Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:24 am

    I was going to respond to your points but it's clear that my assessment of conspiracy thinking was accurate, so I'm not sure how I can convince you who I am, or that there isn't a secret CIA cabal of pro-US forums out to suppress the truth about the F-35 and belittle Russian technology. I'll try to stick to useful contributions in future.
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    Post  kvs Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:10 am

    I guess the forum software is so crappy that choosing a set of posts to be moved to another section without dragging unrelated ones is
    impossible or too tedious. Gotta love that wonderful software engineering. By clowns who do not know what an algorithm is. I have
    to deal with this brain dead "IP" in various contexts and have zero tolerance for it. To think that governments hire these incompetents
    to write all sorts of critical code and to design work related web pages. Then people have to live with the broken garbage on a daily
    basis.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:56 am

    The problem is with posts that mix content between on topic stuff I would like to keep in a thread and offtopic stuff I created a new thread for.

    There is no automatic way to split the content by subject, so I can either brutally cut everything out and move it all and leave it at that meaning conversations about on topic factors that were moved would become disjointed, or do what I did and copy everything across to here and then copy the Su-57 relevant bits and repost them in the Su-57 thread.

    I was going to respond to your points but it's clear that my assessment of conspiracy thinking was accurate, so I'm not sure how I can convince you who I am, or that there isn't a secret CIA cabal of pro-US forums out to suppress the truth about the F-35 and belittle Russian technology.

    Well this thread is here if you change you mind.

    But just looking at how Youtube and Facebook and Twitter exercise their rights to ban and suppress and censor material posted on their websites I would think the CIA and NSA would not be doing their job if they didn't have a few people working in those places making sure things in their interests are done their way.

    It is no secret various military magazines were infiltrated and screened for content in the past... it would just be part of their job description to include internet sources for information and recruiting... pride is an obvious in... tell someone who wrote a book about something that they don't know everything and use your NSA connections to get something they didn't include in detail in their book and then use them to collect other spies... that is just how it is done.

    Doesn't bother me of course, I don't have any access to any secret information, but even just being a fan of Soviet and Russian military equipment for 30-40 years means I can tell HATO bullshit when I smell it... ie Novachok/Polonium... you know... real conspiracies invented by the west to further their agenda and tar their enemy...
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    Post  kvs Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:01 pm

    Properly written forum software would let you highlight any subset of posts you wanted and then click to reassign them to another
    thread target.   It looks like you are only given the option of cutting out chunks of several posts and then have to tediously edit
    this chunk.   I may be wrong but I doubt pasting over post content as if you are dealing with a combined document is a
    preferred method of removing OT post content.  

    Even if the forum stores all posts as continuous stream, individual posts can trivially be separated with tags or symbols to allow
    parsing into discrete elements.  Software that cannot handle trivial set operations in any sort of management context is not software
    but garbage.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:49 am

    The chosen software setup was chosen because it is free.

    I can put up with the lack of capacity for a system that ticks over and does not cost anything.

    Normally when things go off topic they go completely off with the members involved not staying on subject at all so it is quite simple to move the relevant posts... in the past I have not bothered with a few posts on topic being copied back because usually they didn't have much value.

    What I am trying to say is that it doesn't happen enough to bother getting upset about it.
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:00 am

    F-22 uses older 5W t/r modules while N036 uses between 10/15W on quad pack modules. Overall, N036 has similar KW output as Irbis-E, making it the most powerful radar for fighter jet. Part 2.
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    Post  Vann7 Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:04 pm

    I never understood the hype for Russian air defenses , they are pretty limited to protect
    any area anywhere.. those s-300s and s-400s failed to protect syria and armenia from drones attacks
    and others on their land.. Israel alone did about 2 thousands strikes on syria ,with russian military  helping syria with pantsirs ,tors ,s-300s and s-400s.  Those s-300s and s-400s have been largely
    ineffective is sealing the airspace of syria ,and also failed in protecting armenia that was attacked directly its main land..

    the future of air defense belong to energy weapons or electromagnetic railguns but also next gen
    anti air magnetic propulsion kinetic artillery.

    this is what russia needs to target drones ,cruise missiles and NATO planes with heavy jamming capabilities.



    i warned years ago ,that russia was incorrectly training their forces for nato strikes ,they visualize
    nato charging Russian territory with f-16s and f-35's and dozens of cruise missiles at same time. No

    but thats not how nato train to attack russia.. they train with swarm of autonomous drones with artificial intelligence that can't be jammed doing the charge ,
    and a single nato bomber can launch hundreds of drones in just one s-400 defended zone. so 10 bombers means 1 thousands of mini drones overwhelming russian defenses.. combined with decoys,
    so those s-300s and s-400s are pretty outdated for the job ,im afraid. same with tors and pantsirs outdated for modern wars as we saw in syria. it will be a total destruction of russia air defenses.
    This doesn't means that s-400s and s-300s will be useless completely ,they can snipe planes from far distances ,but russia don't have an effective area of denial defense for the first wave of attacks that will be lead by swarm of drones and glide bombs that caused a lot of damage in syria.. sadly.



    Last edited by Vann7 on Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Isos Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:15 pm

    Genius this gun has an effective range of 5-6 km.

    Laser have an optical horizon of 10 or so km.

    Railguns need a shit ton of energy and their rounds are limited in manoevrability.

    And all of them need radars to see UAV or other targets further than 10-15km anyway.

    Any system is limited against low flying and low rcs targets. The issue is detect them on time. Downing tgem is easy.

    Until now only russian system proved to be capable to deal with such tatgets.

    Air defence can't close an airspace. They protect you until you bomb the enemy airbases. If you have only AD you loose no matter what.

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    Post  Vann7 Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:30 pm

    Isos wrote:Genius this gun has an effective range of 5-6 km.

    Laser have an optical horizon of 10 or so km. .

    indeed have short range. but they are very cheap and you can deploy far more units of them ,than you can of tors and pantsirs.. and if you mount those defenses on warships ,you will push back those planes , farther of your borders..  10 converttes armed with anti air magnetic driven area artillery can cover about 10x 6km  = 60km..at very least.. but if you spread them with 10km distance between them, then you will have 120km of rock solid impenetrable air defense. and only use s-300s and s-400s for sniping ,but not for stopping swarm of drones.. they are not ideal for that job.. neither pantsirs or tors.. this is not mentioning the economic cost  ,since like i saw 1 american b1 bomber can launch a hundred of mini drones.. this is how nato trains to fight russia, with saturation attacks..

    Russia will need at least 1 thousand missiles interceptor ,1-2x missiles per target ,to stop a first wave
    of NATO saturation attacks. and they can pull dozen of waves like that..

    this is what nato and israel did in syria to destroy those pantsirs.. and this is what turkey also did..
    and this is what arerbaijan also did.. if anyone thinks that russia air defenses can effectively block
    nato swarm drones attacks is because is not paying attention of the conflicts and how many air defenses russia lost in the last 5 years.  Tors ,pantsirs, s-300s all destroyed.. trying to deal with swarm of drones..


    take a look at how Russia military "train"



    notice how they need 2 missiles, to just shoot down a soviet era missile. while
    anti air artillery salvos are cheap munition.. you can fire thousands of them for the cost
    of 1 interceptor missile. and this is a "Training" for them. This is completely unrealistic scenario , because if NATO
    attacks russia will not be with 1 anti ship missile.. and russia big exercises best i have seen
    is russia military fighting versus waves of 50-60 drones.. and about the same in enemy planes. Neutral  No

    Russia do not have a true area of denial defense ,and also even if they were crazy enough to deploy
    all their air defenses in one place ,to multiply their chances ,this will be incredibly inefficient to use
    s-300s and s-400s versus loitering munition drones or swarm of drones . is not economically practical..

    the future of air defense will be rail guns ,lazer guns ,computer guided anti air magnetic artillery  and lethal electromagnetic weapons.. in this later russia have some progress.. but based on how they did in armenia ,that got their helicopter destroyed ,and could not defend armenia s-300 in armenia territory , it will be clear they are not there yet.. Those s-300s and s400s will be pieces of museum
    in the next 5 to 10 years ,with advancement of rail guns.. and anti air artillery .

    railguns range can go as high a 1,000km.. and this is what americans are working. The ones they ahve today reach 300 km distance ,so this are true scary weapons. because you can attack any nation or any combat plane from very far distances and there will be no trace of who did the attack .since those hypersonic shells have next to none signature on radars ,will not be detected by radars in most cases.. so the enemy will not see what hit them. A long range rail gun can be used to assasinate a county leader on his presidential plane.. russia better be careful of those presidential flights to europe.. a simple warship or cargo ship armed with a rail gun ,can shot down any plane withing a radius of 300m to 1km and do it secretly..  so far, not impressed with those s-400s or s-300s ,they have been useless in syria and in armenia ,have changed nothing ,and have not created any denial of zone. .don't understand the hype for them.

    Someone need to show the russian military what germany is doing for short range defense..
    is far superior to anything russia have. this is how true modern air defenses should be.
    this is how true area denial should be.. cheap ,powerful and extremely effective vs swarm of drones.
    but also an effective

    iskander and hypersonic tsirkon killer.


    sadly russia military is sleeping , and if they don't change their defense tactics ,it will be a disaster
    when they need to face a true NATO swarm of drone attack.. what they can do.  

    The russian base in syria will not have a chance of an attack like this ,of a thousands kamikazi  drones with artificial intelligence




    US is also testing very high altitude stealth drones with a very small radar detection that one reach the max altitude will glide down towards their s-400 target , that don't glide in a predictable flight path .. this will be another very serious problem for russia air defenses. russia need to go back to the drawing board and create modern anti air artillery combined with rail guns and lasers,this the most efficient way to deal with future wars that will be 100% lead by swarm of drones and highly maneuverable targets. Also russia need long range rail guns mounted on their warship or land.. those s-300s ,pantsirs and tors will not have a chance to stop an rail gun attack , venezuela was attacked 2 weeks ago by a rail gun and their s-300s ,pantsir and tors defenses totally failed to protect their
    refinery.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGISIerJ5dI



    the ugly truth of putin's army air defenses.. and people still believe
    Putin was the "big winner" of this armenia conflict.



    This was truly painful to watch ,how russian best air defenses in service completely smashed
    by a third world country like azerbaijan.. in such a small conflict of armenia ,and very likely
    it was Russian officers the ones killed operating their tor defenses , since armenia did not have plenty of experience using them. and they hide their deaths by "Accidents" on military bases..

    Russia will need a ridiculous high number of tors and pantsir defenses like 500x tors/pantsirs  in order to stop a swarm of drones ,like the ones a major power like israel ,france or uk can produce.
    and a far more to fight a true NATO attack on russia territory.

    Im afraid the Russian military will do absolutely nothing to change completely their air defense tactics..and their military hardware until shoigu removed or they get s-400s easily destroyed by a third world country like turkey or azerbaijan ,which ever come first. because the sad truth is they are completely inadequate to fight swarm of drones attacks..  Russia will need to go back to the drawing board or buy germany anti air artillery ,lots of them ,as many as they can build. also take to a whole new level their electronic warfare.. because so far the performance of  russia defending armenia and syria have been largely not very great.. but more close to mediocre. if nato and israel ,was very serious of destroying kaliningrad air defenses there .which are even stronger than crimea. they could truly pull that out with thousands of swarm of drones ,and loitering munition they can easily pull from poland.

    who really won in the armenian conflict and who really lost?
    the big loser was not armenia.. but the russian military air defenses instead,
    they were destroyed left right and center iskander launchers destroyed, tors ,pantsirs and s-300s,
    their performance was completely inadequate for the job. and azerbaijan is a third world nation ,not a major power ,they got only a few hundred of drones.  and it it was russia who setup armenia air defenses and not only soviet era defenses destroyed but also russia best tor and pantsir defenses too.. and s-300s favorit destroyed too. So it was russia military the real big loser in this conflict.
    this defeat of russia technology , could only be a positive thing ,if they fire shoigu from his job and putin too , and they realize their air defenses are not acceptable for the job and start inmediately working in advanced anti air artillery .,rail guns and land laser defenses.. can s-300 and s-400 shot down any drone ?  for sure it can ,but their performance is very bad as we saw in syria and armenia ,versus groups of coordinated surprise drones and missile attacks at same time. So it will will be funny that after russia invested so much money in pantsir and tors..and s-300s and also s-400s, they end ditching them and selling them to other nations and start working on something else.  s-400s will still be useful but only practical versus long range attacks on combat planes ,stealth planes and and large expensive targets like intel spy planes.  S-400s should be seen as sniper rifles..they work well at range but not ideal for close combat and russia have a big major security hole in the short and medium air defenses and their electronic warfare doesn't appear to be good enough to deny an air space area to an enemy that is armed by nato or israel.

    definitely putin will need to stop wasting the billions of euros he spend in total distractions and celebrations like olympics and and celebrations of soviet past victories and seriously increase the budget of russia defense industry in
    new air defenses research weapons program.. because i do see this performance of russia in protecting armenia main land, from not very good to abysmally bad as was the armenian conflict , and he only managed to minimize the bad publicity ,because aliev accepted a cease of fire. because if he goes full scale all or nothing ,russia will have lost a lot more air defenses and more soldiers killed in armenia than in syria conflict ,and even their s-400s destroyed too ,by cheap drones as a final insult.  No   The russian military should be dismayed by now ,how bad was their military performance versus major swarm of drones attacks. the good news is that russia do have capabilities to correct this mistake.. the bad news is that russia it is still ruled by slow learning people ,that don't adapt very fast.. and i was warning about this many years ago ,russia is not training its military correctly to deal with up to a thousands of missiles and drones attacks with decoys,because this is exactly what they have been training for a very long time. the only deterrence russia to stop nato from attacking russia are their nuclear weapons ,their submarine force and their hypersonic missiles. because if all depended on russia air defenses..russia will be doomed already.
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    Post  calripson Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:09 pm

    One place you can bet your life the drone strategy will try to be replicated will be Donbass.
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    Post  LMFS Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:16 pm

    calripson wrote:One place you can bet your life the drone strategy will try to be replicated will be Donbass.

    Sure, and with the kind of airspace control that Russia can have there, it is guaranteed to fail.
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    Post  Isos Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:21 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    calripson wrote:One place you can bet your life the drone strategy will try to be replicated will be Donbass.

    Sure, and with the kind of airspace control that Russia can have there, it is guaranteed to fail.

    It failed in Syria and Libya too. Even in NK it should have failed if Armenis knew how to fight and used their sukhoi or iskanders to target real targets of high value.

    Drones are good against guerillas and even then they are limited. They sure have their use but if you face an army with a real air force they won't help.
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    Post  ahmedfire Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:48 am

    @Vann7
    Railguns need very high power supply thus its employment as a towed/SP system for army is doubtful in the near future.

    That's why US Navy is testing it on a deck ,need a decent amount of deck space as well as a ton of space below decks and the weapon needs a new launcher cores every 400 shots and barrels every thousand. It consumes 9kw hours per shot ,so their deck options would be the 3 Zumwalt destroyers and aircraft carriers.

    And they didn't retire the Aegis Rolling Eyes
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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:05 am

    Hahahahaha... thanks for the entertainment Vann... or should I say chicken little.

    Russian air defence is useless... that is the lesson you learned from the conflict in NK?

    Drones are cheap and simple weapons, just like AKs and RPG-7s are cheap simple weapons... drawing the conclusion that drones can defeat the air defence of NK, and therefore no one is safe from them is amusing because as France has found some idiot with a knife is cheap and hard to stop are you suggesting France should give up its navy and army and air force and just equip its military with knifes and send them to enemy countries?

    This was not Azerbaijan defeating Armenia or Russia... they beat NK and they had the direct assistance of Turkey and Israel... you bleat that Russia has no defences, but if that attack was on Russian forces there of course would be better results against the drones because Russian troops are actually quite well equipped to deal with air threats, but also the direct response against Azerbaijan or whomever the attack was launched from would be destroyed by missiles launched from ships thousands of kms away.

    Azerbaijan is tiny and it small military capacity is very well understood by Russia and could be quickly and clinically overwhelmed in hours and then when it is exposed they could be slaughtering people as much as they like, but to what benefit?

    How does Russia benefit by destroying anyone in that region?

    Railguns as operational weapons don't currently exist and the money right now needed to create them would be enormous... which is pretty stupid because right now missiles and conventional guns exist that could do a much better job much more affordably.

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