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    Talking bollocks thread #3

    Backman
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    Post  Backman Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:09 pm

    J-10 vs Rafale
    J-20 vs su 57e/mki

    India would have China covered IF it scooped up the su 57. But the thing is, the su 57 is being offered to China also. So if India doesn't get into it , they risk being up against it.

    gbu, you are saying that India should just wait around for the su 57 to go into service ect. That's risky. I am convinced that China was also in the running for the FGFA deal in 2006/7. Which is why they went full speed ahead with the J-20 in 2008, only after India got the FGFA deal. Thanks to India backing out , China has a renewed chance to get it.

    J-10 vs Rafale
    J-20 and su 57 vs ?? Rafale ?
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    Post  gbu48098 Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:27 pm

    Backman wrote:J-10 vs Rafale
    J-20 vs su 57e/mki

    India would have China covered IF it scooped up the su 57. But the thing is, the su 57 is being offered to China also. So if India doesn't get into it , they risk being up against it.

    gbu, you are saying that India should just wait around for the su 57 to go into service ect. That's risky. I am convinced that China was also in the running for the FGFA deal in 2006/7. Which is why they went full speed ahead with the J-20 in 2008, only after India got the FGFA deal. Thanks to India backing out , China has a renewed chance to get it.

    J-10 vs Rafale
    J-20 and su 57 vs ?? Rafale ?

    Russia will not sell it to China unless its desperate or there are some other barter deals on the economics side. Why would Russa sell to China their most front line so China can shamelessly reverse engineer copy? 5th gen planes are very sensitive to sell to possible opponent countries as they are sensor loaded to the max. India will buy when its time, too early to get serious on that.....Russian's issue million statement at all levels like Indians....hard to filter out noise from real thing in terms of whats ready or not.


    J-10 vs Rafale
    J-20 and su 57 vs ?? Rafale ?
    [/quote]

    J10 vs Rafale -- Definietely Rafale all other things being equal. But strategies and pilot skill also play role and also combat experience.....Indians have combat experience, doesn't mean they will come out on top but it will be peer to peer fight.
    J-20 and su 57 vs ?? Rafale -- I would say 57 in theory but I doubt stealth advantage day by day. SU's are huge planes both pro and con but tactics go along with all battles. So Its Rafale or 57 for me, I doubt the Chinese stuff....but eventually they will cream many things. Its just inevitable if left alone....
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    Post  lancelot Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    You just don't invest your entire portfolio in one stock....

    They were only buying 126 planes as a stopgap, but it has taken so long they are going to need to buy a lot more and they simply can't afford to buy as many Rafales as they would need to fill the gap... personally I think Russia should raise their prices.
    ...
    I have every confidence India could develop into a superpower, but their leaning towards the US and confrontation with China will do the opposite... of course it just takes one election to change everything too.

    It is hilarious that you think Indias future is a future not dependent on other countries for their defence needs but your solution is to shun Russia, a country that offers joint development and Indian production of their weapons and equipment in favour of France and presumably the US who will happily push them into a confrontation with China... that will help India grow and develop for sure....
    ...

    India is extremely stupid with its procurement strategies. The Rafale will have its own weapons systems which will be distinct from the rest of the Indian Air Force. France uses their own air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons. For the most part the French do not even use the same weapons the rest of NATO uses. The MiG-35 would have weapons commonality with the Su-30MKI and would enable a simplification and rationalization of the logistics of the Indian Air Force.

    Then, like I said before, there is the stupidity of India shunning Chinese investment in India. Soon the Chinese will finish a high speed rail in Indonesia in record time and budget. Good luck getting a similar deal from the West. India could get a lot more bang for their buck if they cooperated with Russia and China. Russia in terms of military weapons and China with regards to civilian infrastructure. But no, they choose to buy from the West and delay their economic growth for decades.

    I don't know why he hates the "left" in India this much. Indira Gandhi built up India's nuclear deterrent. What has Modi done?

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    Post  gbu48098 Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:21 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    You just don't invest your entire portfolio in one stock....

    They were only buying 126 planes as a stopgap, but it has taken so long they are going to need to buy a lot more and they simply can't afford to buy as many Rafales as they would need to fill the gap... personally I think Russia should raise their prices.
    ...
    I have every confidence India could develop into a superpower, but their leaning towards the US and confrontation with China will do the opposite... of course it just takes one election to change everything too.

    It is hilarious that you think Indias future is a future not dependent on other countries for their defence needs but your solution is to shun Russia, a country that offers joint development and Indian production of their weapons and equipment in favour of France and presumably the US who will happily push them into a confrontation with China... that will help India grow and develop for sure....
    ...

    India is extremely stupid with its procurement strategies. The Rafale will have its own weapons systems which will be distinct from the rest of the Indian Air Force. France uses their own air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons. For the most part the French do not even use the same weapons the rest of NATO uses. The MiG-35 would have weapons commonality with the Su-30MKI and would enable a simplification and rationalization of the logistics of the Indian Air Force.

    Then, like I said before, there is the stupidity of India shunning Chinese investment in India. Soon the Chinese will finish a high speed rail in Indonesia in record time and budget. Good luck getting a similar deal from the West. India could get a lot more bang for their buck if they cooperated with Russia and China. Russia in terms of military weapons and China with regards to civilian infrastructure. But no, they choose to buy from the West and delay their economic growth for decades.

    I don't know why he hates the "left" in India this much. Indira Gandhi built up India's nuclear deterrent. What has Modi done?

    You don't make any sense. IAF wanted different stuff specifically French, what part do you not get about diversification....they had French for a long time already. Let Indians worry about how they spend their money....Modi has done more than what minority appeasers did in 60 years. Everyone hates the left except groomer gangs who everyone knows where they are from and the globalists, they ruin everything they touch. Unless someone is in that group there is nothing to like about current leftists and victim baiters. Indira Gandhi is the dynasty...Modi is from the roots. India is fine without chinese shit and will be fine....they got lucky in 62 due to the Nehru and his gutless actions....China will remember this time if they attempt anything in hot zone which is why they aren't

    Telling India how they should spend their money is me telling you to better spend your time in doing something more productive than doing useless forum writeup's....hope you get how ridiculous that sounds.

    I am be coming a victim in my own ancestral lands due to leftist and globalism bastards. I have no sympathy towards them though I am not the violent type. If your culture is so good and you are so proud then stay in your lands and stop messing ours. Thats the feeling I have....


    Last edited by gbu48098 on Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:46 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Corrected personal attack)
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    Post  gbu48098 Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:38 am

    Isos wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Their ability to detect targets will be much worse than even most 3rd gen fighters let alone fourth or fifth.
    Reaper can get details about the target from a number of platforms - space based, air based, ground based.

    In Afghanistan target details have been fed to Reapers by airborne F 16s and F 18s.

    GarryB wrote:Jamming or finding their control centres makes more sense to deal with drones than chasing your tail hunting them each down with an AAM.
    But drones like the Reaper are being controlled in Afghanistan by ground based stations located half way across the world.

    That's called satellite guidance. It can be jammed.

    Krasukha-2 is meant to jamm satellites and is deployed for years now. Krasukha-4 and Repelent and other smaller jammers can jamm datalink between drones and ground based station like it is used for turkish TB2 drones.

    Sure in a war that we can wait eternally but wait then we justify lack of evidence as some grand strategy from Putin or whoever, they did nothing like that in Armenia to help out their ally or prove capabilities to potential consumers. There seems to lot of unquestioned LA LA going in here....
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    Post  gbu48098 Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:47 am

    GarryB wrote:

    The Indians spent 8 billion dollars on 36 Rafale fighters, but refused to invest 6 billion dollars in the FGFA programme...

    The Indians want the best but will only pay for it if it happens to be French.

    For 2.5 billion they got an aircraft carrier and a flight of MiG-29KR fighters and Ka-31 AEW helicopters. They complained like it was 10 billion they were being forced to pay... it is a shame they didn't refuse it... it would have been useful for the Russian Navy.
    I thought you moved this stuff into bullocks....what is this fetish and butt hurtness from India's legitimate and rightful soverign choices? Some of you are absolute reflection of what westerners are....get this into your thoughts, you will see less and less of foreign equipment in Indian armed forces. It already started.....they may not have the best in class but its enough for soon to implode terror land that is next to it. They will get their version 2 and 3's better and eventually competitive. Tanks are inducted, SAM's, Light fighter, Cruise missiles, Nuke Subs, Ships, Carriers, glide bombs and so on. All are in active stages of testing or inducted on trials.

    Rest is same blah blah....I am butt hurt India did not jerk someone else's shlong.
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    Post  flamming_python Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:23 am

    gbu48098 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    The Indians spent 8 billion dollars on 36 Rafale fighters, but refused to invest 6 billion dollars in the FGFA programme...

    The Indians want the best but will only pay for it if it happens to be French.

    For 2.5 billion they got an aircraft carrier and a flight of MiG-29KR fighters and Ka-31 AEW helicopters. They complained like it was 10 billion they were being forced to pay... it is a shame they didn't refuse it... it would have been useful for the Russian Navy.
    I thought you moved this stuff into bullocks....what is this fetish and butt hurtness from India's legitimate and rightful soverign choices? Some of you are absolute reflection of what westerners are....get this into your thoughts, you will see less and less of foreign equipment in Indian armed forces. It already started.....they may not have the best in class but its enough for soon to implode terror land that is next to it. They will get their version 2 and 3's better and eventually competitive. Tanks are inducted, SAM's, Light fighter, Cruise missiles, Nuke Subs, Ships, Carriers, glide bombs and so on. All are in active stages of testing or inducted on trials.

    Rest is same blah blah....I am butt hurt India did not jerk someone else's shlong.

    India has the legitimacy and sovereignty to do whatever it wants

    But it's getting shafted, word to the wise

    As for dependency on Russia, what you've been talking about - do you think that for one moment India would be ordering all these systems and joint-ventures with Russia and other countries, if they could design and construct their own competitive tanks, SAMs, light fighters, cruise missiles, nuclear subs, ships, carriers and glide bombs?

    Of course not. They wouldn't order from Russia, and they wouldn't order from anyone else. It's a matter of neccessity for them, and both sides win from the arrangement. Russia is also taking part in the Make in India program and has set up production of T-90Ss, Su-30MKIs, Ka-226s, AK-203s, Talwar frigates, Brahmos cruise missiles, RD-33 engines and a whole bunch of other systems in India itself. Russia has made a whole bunch of tech-transfers to India. The knowledge, experience gained can be used for whatever number of domestic Indian projects

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    Post  gbu48098 Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:27 am

    flamming_python wrote:

    India has the legitimacy and sovereignty to do whatever it wants

    But it's getting shafted, word to the wise

    As for dependency on Russia, what you've been talking about - do you think that for one moment India would be ordering all these systems and joint-ventures with Russia and other countries, if they could design and construct their own competitive tanks, SAMs, light fighters, cruise missiles, nuclear subs, ships, carriers and glide bombs?

    Of course not. They wouldn't order from Russia, and they wouldn't order from anyone else. It's a matter of neccessity for them, and both sides win from the arrangement. Russia is also taking part in the Make in India program and has set up production of T-90Ss, Su-30MKIs, Ka-226s, AK-203s, Talwar frigates, Brahmos cruise missiles, RD-33 engines and a whole bunch of other systems in India itself. Russia has made a whole bunch of tech-transfers to India. The knowledge, experience gained can be used for whatever number of domestic Indian projects

    No one is getting shafted, if any India got shafted due to USSR collapse and subsequent painful spares issues and what not during 90s and early 2000's. India is at a stage now where domestic is picking up, partnership with Russia will continue for foreseeable future whether its nuclear plants or subs or leading aircrafts or energy. Nationalist government is not like previous governments and they are already showing results in various areas. I already mentioned 10 times, they know where they are in terms of their abilities and products but surely if trend continues you will see decrease in foreign procurement in the next decade. This is a good thing for India or for any country that is independent. Russia, France and Israel are major partners that are helping India in various areas, bramhos, subs and carriers and so on all involved a deep partnership that is based on trust and relationship. No reason to keep bitching about why they bought Rafale and over playing that....I already provided reasons. Already Navy is mostly local at this point including designs of destroyers and Frigate, helis and artillery. Lots of armament is being heavily tested ofcourse may not be 100% indigenous in all the hardware components but they are fairly localized. So give it a rest, Rafale gave them edge over China and also tactics that are not in common to China and India via Russian stuff. They know what they are doing....ports, waterways and infrastructure is getting priority now.

    They will buy top of the line from outside until they are capable but other stuff is being designed and produced locally. Even russia with so much experience struggled for a long time like till 2012 to get started on new designs, so India is expected to run into hurdles but direction is set and they have enough human resources to take up the challenge.
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:22 am

    Delusional cope. Indian Rafales would get eaten alive by Chinese Su-35s, let alone their J-20s.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:12 pm

    Russia will not sell it to China unless its desperate or there are some other barter deals on the economics side.

    What if China negotiates a local production licence and buys 1,000 planes to replace all their current obsolete fighters.

    Look at what they are doing with their Navy.

    When Russia found itself without decent modern affordable thermal imaging sights they shopped around and found the best a country was willing to sell to them the production rights and they paid for it.

    Once they were making them for themselves it was much easier to make their own changes and improvements and start moving forward in the sector.

    Russia will copy anything they want but cannot buy but obviously they prefer to buy rather than steal.

    The competition for the new medium air to air missile to be used on the newer Soviet Swing Wing fighter was between the AA-4 Awl, and the AA-7 (R-23) that was eventually won by the R-23.

    It is a myth in the west that the AA-4 Awl was just a Soviet copy of the Sparrow because it appeared to have the same triangular fins in the same place... but if you have a look at undoctored photos you can see that the fins are not triangular.

    What I am trying to say is that there is serious competition for everything that went into service in the Soviet Union and sometimes copies of successful western kit was put up in competition and sometimes not.

    There is the myth that the MiG-31 and AA-9 are copies of the F-14 and Phoenix missile that was supposed to have been handed to the Soviets by Iran, which ignores a lot of obvious problems like Iran and the Soviets were not friends... the Iranians supported several anti Soviet groups in Afghanistan during their time there in the 1980s... not to mention the fact that the main things on the MiG-31 was its PESA radar which was rather more sophisticated than  the American radar though the american radar had more operating modes the Soviet radar was better, while the AA-9 missile was inferior and was only SARH and not active radar homing.

    Another myth that the Su-25 was a mistaken copy of the A-9 which was the aircraft competing with the A-10 for service in the US... which of course was a load of bollocks and actually rather amusing because the A-10 was chosen as much for political reasons as its performance... it was too big and underpowered which lead to a sluggish aircraft that had to take damage because it couldn't avoid it.

    When we see row upon row of copied western and soviet gear in Chinese parades the vast majority are not in service and are just for export... normally aimed at countries can't afford the more expensive original.

    Everyone copies... what was the F-15 if not a direct copy of the MiG-25... the aircraft it was supposed to compete with.

    Why would Russa sell to China their most front line so China can shamelessly reverse engineer copy?

    If they want to pay for local production then there would be no value in reverse engineering... reverse engineering is expensive and slow and difficult and no guarantee of getting it right.

    They have plenty of money... why not buy production rights, or start a joint venture to develop new systems and equipment for it.

    By the time they are making Su-57s Russian AF pilots will be flying Su-57Ms... if they want the improved engines that will cost them a lot more.

    5th gen planes are very sensitive to sell to possible opponent countries as they are sensor loaded to the max.

    Indeed and there will be things they don't want to sell to anyone, so the export model customers buy might have technology they can already do better with, so there might be things they want of their own design being used in some areas... which would likely be fine.

    Not sure the Russians would be happy letting france and Israel climb all over it putting their gear in there though...

    India is extremely stupid with its procurement strategies.

    I can understand wanting to make their own stuff, but trying to make the best yourself is just too ambitious and makes domestic programmes expensive and libel to fail.

    I like the idea of the Tegas, but it should be something more like a MiG-29M rather than trying to make their own F-35.

    Obviously I am biased, but treat the Rafale as a M2000 replacement... only buy enough to replace them and then you need something to replace pretty much everything else that is old... ie MiG-21, MiG-27, Jaguar, and upgraded MiG-29s.

    I don't know what the exact numbers are but a MiG-29M is fully multirole and likely just as good a light strike aircraft as the MiG-27 and Jaguar, and as an interceptor it has twice the wing pylons of the MiG-21 and a good radar and combat system... and is directly related to the MiG-29KR and MiG-35... they use the same airframe.

    I would therefore buy 300-600 MiG-29Ms and perhaps 50-100 MiG-35s to replace the 80 odd MiG-29 upgrades they have or are getting.

    It would be the cheapest way of getting numbers of aircraft in service and for the future you can upgrade the MiG-29Ms with equipment and systems in the MiG-35 so there will be an upgrade path for the future.

    The new LMFS is likely going to have upgraded everything which most likely will be tested in the MiG-35 in Russian service, so further upgrades and development there.

    The LMFS will likely be heavier than the MiG-35 simply because it will carry weapons internally, but new weapons will be designed from the outset to be carried internally and could be located anywhere on the aircraft fuselage including the sides with the design to throw the munition out and downwards away from the aircraft for launch...

    India could get a lot more bang for their buck if they cooperated with Russia and China.

    I agree, China is not the enemy... you don't have to get into bed with them... or even shower together, but just remain civil and trade and you might find your economy starts growing like theirs is...

    India has all the ingredients... and potential.... most countries do, but don't get the chance or that chance is taken away by a colonial power limiting their growth and development for their own selfish needs.

    [quoteIAF wanted different stuff specifically French, what part do you not get about diversification....they had French for a long time already.[/quote]

    The idea of diversity of sources was to prevent sanctions and embargoes, but to also allow competition to lower the price in some situations.

    Makes sense but the French and US are where sanctions come from, and adding French companies to competitions raises the bar in terms of performance, but it is like adding Ferrari to the car makers you are going to buy your fleet of service vans from... and when everything else comes from Russia you end up being obliged to buy Ferrari brand vans... which is dumb. They do some stuff really well it is simply not affordable to have more than a token number of them on your books...

    .they got lucky in 62 due to the Nehru and his gutless actions....China will remember this time if they attempt anything in hot zone which is why they aren't

    It is good that you are not bitter though...   Smile

    Telling India how they should spend their money is me telling you to better spend your time in doing something more productive than doing useless forum writeup's....hope you get how ridiculous that sounds.

    We understand India is buying more than planes and tanks and helicopters... but this is very very expensive and what favours will they end up getting... if any?

    Look at what France did to Libya... ruthless and brutal... and ultimately kicked themselves in the ass with migrants in Africa using Libya as a launch point to get to Europe... they broke a country because it suited them... will they break India too if it suits them?


    I am be coming a victim in my own ancestral lands due to leftist and globalism bastards. I have no sympathy towards them though I am not the violent type. If your culture is so good and you are so proud then stay in your lands and stop messing ours. Thats the feeling I have....

    You are getting into bed with the two countries that interfere the most in things that are not their business, and will tell you what to do from the hour you get up in the morning to the hour you go to bed... you are not just picking the wrong enemies, but also the wrong new friends.... but we can't make you see that... and Russia will not make demands of India... they must buy this or that, but as the US insinuates itself into your politics (BTW if you think Russian hacking and election meddling is funny you see what the CIA does, though they have probably been active there for most of the post WWII period to be honest).

    They are already telling you not to buy S-400... they will offer THAAD and Patriot for dozens of times more money despite they wont be as effective as S-400 and you will need US satellite time for them to work against ballistic missiles of course...

    Sure in a war that we can wait eternally but wait then we justify lack of evidence as some grand strategy from Putin or whoever, they did nothing like that in Armenia to help out their ally or prove capabilities to potential consumers.

    Russia sold equipment to Armenia... not NK, and the stuff in Armenia was under Armenian control... what they did with it was their business.

    Not an expert on the situation but it seemed that officially Armenia did nothing to help NK and apart from lots of volunteers who went to help that Armenia did diddly squat. The leader of Armenia seemed to expect help from the west and it didn't come and asked for Russian help just before it was all over and they did what they could in the time available.

    They now have troops on the ground and are controlling the ceasefire.

    The alternative would be NK overrun and Armenian civilians killed again...

    I thought you moved this stuff into bullocks.

    Missed a couple of posts that were partly about the Su-57.

    Now fixed.

    what is this fetish and butt hurtness from India's legitimate and rightful soverign choices?

    Just stating the facts that India is happy to spend billions on lighter less capable previous generation aircraft, but given the chance to have a real say in the design and development of their own 5th gen fighter joint development they don't have the money.

    Improved relations and further sales of US gear and some offers might not stay on the table.

    I am sure the Americans will be interested in Brahmos...

    get this into your thoughts, you will see less and less of foreign equipment in Indian armed forces. It already started.....they may not have the best in class but its enough for soon to implode terror land that is next to it. They will get their version 2 and 3's better and eventually competitive. Tanks are inducted, SAM's, Light fighter, Cruise missiles, Nuke Subs, Ships, Carriers, glide bombs and so on. All are in active stages of testing or inducted on trials.

    Funny way of doing things though... buying French Rafales and American Apaches which they are not allowed to put their own stuff in or produce locally, and are rejecting Russian aircraft that come with ToT and local assembly and production.... sure they buy S-400, but their medium SAM programme is an SA-6 which they seem to be converting into an SA-11 at a time when Russia is introducing Viking (BUKM3, as well as S-350) which are both superior...

    and subsequent painful spares issues and what not during 90s and early 2000's.

    Some of those painful spares issues were self inflicted... if you want spare parts buy from the company that makes the product, not from a country wanting to make a bit of cash selling off excess parts that might be used parts passed as new.

    Lots of countries saved lots of money buying MiGs from operators of MiGs wanting to get rid of them instead of the maker, so of course when they needed new spare parts from the maker they are going to cost more because that is how they make their money.

    Indian Rafales would get eaten alive by Chinese Su-35s, let alone their J-20s.

    The Rafale is a good aircraft, but too expensive to afford enough to make a real difference.

    I mean the last conflict with Pakistan and India is using MiG-21s... why not use Su-30s and M2000s if the latter are so wonderful.

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    Post  LMFS Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:27 pm

    gbu48098 wrote:you will see less and less of foreign equipment in Indian armed forces.

    So it should be, nothing against it. Sadly for them they are talking more than doing, and as said it has all to do with cronies with old colonial robbing mindset they need to get rid of, before making real progress. It is sad but it is like that.

    It already started.....they may not have the best in class but its enough for soon to implode terror land that is next to it. They will get their version 2 and 3's better and eventually competitive. Tanks are inducted, SAM's, Light fighter, Cruise missiles, Nuke Subs, Ships, Carriers, glide bombs and so on. All are in active stages of testing or inducted on trials.

    Yes they do many things and I am more than sure they have very competent and hard working people, but their politics suck. And why to insult Pakistan?

    Rest is same blah blah....I am butt hurt India did not jerk someone else's shlong.

    How do you call paying $8B for 36 planes and not getting ToT or local production as mandated by the tender?? I don't want to use graphic words but I think anybody can see this for what it is.

    flamming_python wrote:The knowledge, experience gained can be used for whatever number of domestic Indian projects

    That is the proper partnership India would be pursuing if they were serious about national development, instead of being robbed by France and bossed around by the US only to show how "multivectored" they are...

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    Post  gbu48098 Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:32 pm

    LMFS wrote:

    So it should be, nothing against it. Sadly for them they are talking more than doing, and as said it has all to do with cronies with old colonial robbing mindset they need to get rid of, before making real progress. It is sad but it is like that.
    It already started.....they may not have the best in class but its enough for soon to implode terror land that is next to it. They will get their version 2 and 3's better and eventually competitive. Tanks are inducted, SAM's, Light fighter, Cruise missiles, Nuke Subs, Ships, Carriers, glide bombs and so on. All are in active stages of testing or inducted on trials.
    There is no colonial mindset in current government and they are taking states that they had zero foot print, finally people have seen through 60 years of governments that ducked them and just divided nation by only doing minority appeasements and nothing else. They are talking and doing....watch carefully their industry is gearing up massively behind the scenes. DRDO/HAL and so on which I used to think are shit are finally taking their hardwork into reality domain. All they needed was a govt with national interests at core. India has always been like that historically before the Islamists ruined it and then British. What is it they are talking that they are not doing? Subs are getting commisioned, carrier is underway, Destroyers are home built and so are frigates, helis are inducted, tanks are inducted, Tejas also commisioned, Akash and other SAMS are inducted, Artillary guns are very close too...A2A missiles are also tested. They have lobbists sabotaging the domestic institutions but they are increasingly pushed out of power corridors now.


    Yes they do many things and I am more than sure they have very competent and hard working people, but their politics suck. And why to insult Pakistan?
    I have no sympathy for a religious country that only thrives on terrorism as a human being....I find faults with West on the same scale but west collectively contributes to human development whether its science or tech. Unfortunetely good parts of that culture is being replaced with idiotic bs


    How do you call paying $8B for 36 planes and not getting ToT or local production as mandated by the tender?? I don't want to use graphic words but I think anybody can see this for what it is.
    French planes are strategic in IAF doctrine and marked for nuclear deterrent and they are good under skilled organization and skilled pilots. Net cost is no more than 120 mil on the max side. What to argue when someone wants to buy an iphone? Rafale is the best one in the market as of now minus F-22, 57. They don't want sukhoi heavy fighters and mig-35 for all objectivity is a failure as it is not in the market even to this day. but talked for close to 15 years atleast. TOT is based on the original 138 or something like that, initial ones are always flying condition. We will see....regardless Rafale's are big plus at the moment for India needs.

    flamming_python wrote:The knowledge, experience gained can be used for whatever number of domestic Indian projects

    That is the proper partnership India would be pursuing if they were serious about national development, instead of being robbed by France and bossed around by the US only to show how "multivectored" they are...

    India is not putting a stop,...how do you think their nuke subs, carrier are taking shape?


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    Post  gbu48098 Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    What if China negotiates a local production licence and buys 1,000 planes to replace all their current obsolete fighters.

    Look at what they are doing with their Navy.

    When Russia found itself without decent modern affordable thermal imaging sights they shopped around and found the best a country was willing to sell to them the production rights and they paid for it.

    Once they were making them for themselves it was much easier to make their own changes and improvements and start moving forward in the sector.

    Russia will copy anything they want but cannot buy but obviously they prefer to buy rather than steal.

    The competition for the new medium air to air missile to be used on the newer Soviet Swing Wing fighter was between the AA-4 Awl, and the AA-7 (R-23) that was eventually won by the R-23.

    It is a myth in the west that the AA-4 Awl was just a Soviet copy of the Sparrow because it appeared to have the same triangular fins in the same place... but if you have a look at undoctored photos you can see that the fins are not triangular.

    What I am trying to say is that there is serious competition for everything that went into service in the Soviet Union and sometimes copies of successful western kit was put up in competition and sometimes not.

    There is the myth that the MiG-31 and AA-9 are copies of the F-14 and Phoenix missile that was supposed to have been handed to the Soviets by Iran, which ignores a lot of obvious problems like Iran and the Soviets were not friends... the Iranians supported several anti Soviet groups in Afghanistan during their time there in the 1980s... not to mention the fact that the main things on the MiG-31 was its PESA radar which was rather more sophisticated than  the American radar though the american radar had more operating modes the Soviet radar was better, while the AA-9 missile was inferior and was only SARH and not active radar homing.

    Another myth that the Su-25 was a mistaken copy of the A-9 which was the aircraft competing with the A-10 for service in the US... which of course was a load of bollocks and actually rather amusing because the A-10 was chosen as much for political reasons as its performance... it was too big and underpowered which lead to a sluggish aircraft that had to take damage because it couldn't avoid it.

    When we see row upon row of copied western and soviet gear in Chinese parades the vast majority are not in service and are just for export... normally aimed at countries can't afford the more expensive original.

    Everyone copies... what was the F-15 if not a direct copy of the MiG-25... the aircraft it was supposed to compete with.
    You always end up with US as some shithole place that has no creativity and Russia as some wonderland of creativity....look aroung yourself and if you are in Russia and tell me whose products you see more. Imitation is different from signing contracts or agreements and then shamelessly stealing as a regular thing. Extreme scenarios are different like war time....it is robbery just like colonials robbed natives of their wealth and resournces justifying by saying they don;t know how to use them.
    Any honorable person with integrity should find this repulsive....does not matter nationality. Inspired by an idea and building on your own is different from taking someones work under shamelessly do it as a hobby are two different things. Get off that dragging US into every discussion., it looks ridiculous and many people read these forums. US was full of creativity and still is although on a decline....


    If they want to pay for local production then there would be no value in reverse engineering... reverse engineering is expensive and slow and difficult and no guarantee of getting it right.

    They have plenty of money... why not buy production rights, or start a joint venture to develop new systems and equipment for it.

    By the time they are making Su-57s Russian AF pilots will be flying Su-57Ms... if they want the improved engines that will cost them a lot more.
    Not everything comesdown to buck, there is something called common sense and feeding potential opponent, West did the same thing and now struggling to check China as a competitor. There is no replacement for wisdom....hope Russian's are smarter than that.


    Indeed and there will be things they don't want to sell to anyone, so the export model customers buy might have technology they can already do better with, so there might be things they want of their own design being used in some areas... which would likely be fine.

    Not sure the Russians would be happy letting france and Israel climb all over it putting their gear in there though...
    It is a conundrum, Russia should not depend on big markets as more and more world is realigning and there will be less and less oil based customers for western markets and India going its own. No need to sell front line state of art and slash yourself.....15 billions is a chump change....it is not easy to downgrade equipment and be competetive. India knows this and China too to a degree.....Russian's need reliable economically strong allies like west to push its equipment. Other than that....not many harmless and self damaging options.



    I can understand wanting to make their own stuff, but trying to make the best yourself is just too ambitious and makes domestic programmes expensive and libel to fail.

    I like the idea of the Tegas, but it should be something more like a MiG-29M rather than trying to make their own F-35.

    Obviously I am biased, but treat the Rafale as a M2000 replacement... only buy enough to replace them and then you need something to replace pretty much everything else that is old... ie MiG-21, MiG-27, Jaguar, and upgraded MiG-29s.

    I don't know what the exact numbers are but a MiG-29M is fully multirole and likely just as good a light strike aircraft as the MiG-27 and Jaguar, and as an interceptor it has twice the wing pylons of the MiG-21 and a good radar and combat system... and is directly related to the MiG-29KR and MiG-35... they use the same airframe.

    I would therefore buy 300-600 MiG-29Ms and perhaps 50-100 MiG-35s to replace the 80 odd MiG-29 upgrades they have or are getting.

    It would be the cheapest way of getting numbers of aircraft in service and for the future you can upgrade the MiG-29Ms with equipment and systems in the MiG-35 so there will be an upgrade path for the future.

    The new LMFS is likely going to have upgraded everything which most likely will be tested in the MiG-35 in Russian service, so further upgrades and development there.

    The LMFS will likely be heavier than the MiG-35 simply because it will carry weapons internally, but new weapons will be designed from the outset to be carried internally and could be located anywhere on the aircraft fuselage including the sides with the design to throw the munition out and downwards away from the aircraft for launch...

    Here is how I see it.....Tejas is good enough with 500 to 700 km combat range to offload the mig-21 point interception role and with uttam AESA and BVR along with Sukhois mixed in, they can more than rule Pakistan in air battles. This is the cheapest and most logical for them to support their domestic efforts and put money back in their own economy. They have more than enough mig-29s and sukhois and once 57 goes main stream, they may replace mkis with them. Rafales are certainly edge over China, best fighter designed with optimal configuration and the gear that goes with it. Cost is secondary at the moment as they do not have much options with China banging at the door and the previous government ruining the acquisition process in an extremely dangerous way. Almost a sabotage.

    India could get a lot more bang for their buck if they cooperated with Russia and China.

    I agree, China is not the enemy... you don't have to get into bed with them... or even shower together, but just remain civil and trade and you might find your economy starts growing like theirs is...

    India has all the ingredients... and potential.... most countries do, but don't get the chance or that chance is taken away by a colonial power limiting their growth and development for their own selfish needs.
    I challeng you back, name one country that is comfortable with China as neighbor. Even Pakistanis that let them in hate them to the bone and view them as colonial. Not even a screw is manufactured in Pakistan in the Chinese initiatives. You need to understand Chinese mindset or be their neighbor to get a feel for them. You will certainly get China towns and take outs in every city. I have travelled extensively in China all the way from Beijing to Indian/Nepal border and the tactics they use on Tibetans to delocalize is painful to watch....this is not from reading internet forumns but personal observations. Chinese broke the trust with India again and again and India learned its lesson and now even has a govt that has strategy to kick them in the shins if they underestimate.

    [quoteI]

    The idea of diversity of sources was to prevent sanctions and embargoes, but to also allow competition to lower the price in some situations.

    Makes sense but the French and US are where sanctions come from, and adding French companies to competitions raises the bar in terms of performance, but it is like adding Ferrari to the car makers you are going to buy your fleet of service vans from... and when everything else comes from Russia you end up being obliged to buy Ferrari brand vans... which is dumb. They do some stuff really well it is simply not affordable to have more than a token number of them on your books...
    [/quote]
    Diversity on two fronts, not fall victim to commonality of Russian equipment between China and India and the horrible spares experience with Russians with 90% dependancy on them. India was not victim of French sanctions as India is not Russia in the context of France.....they are the only one who supported India post nuclear tests in early 2000's. Russia succumbed to pressure multiple times from US sanctions with cryo engines for isro as one example. It is a wise choice and sometimes diversity to reduce risk comes at extra cost but its worth for India considering its threat profiles. If it was Germany then I will agree with you, so far France is sanction proof for India based on data as of this point.

    You really need to take a new look and not consumed so much by bias. Unwarranted and ill considered bias is waste of brain matter and has no positive results in general especially on significant issues.

    .
    It is good that you are not bitter though...   Smile
    Why should I? Being not prepared and not anticipating the opponent is your own issue in this case India was naive and Nehru was an idiot and they got the results. Instead of keeping Tibet as buffer in 52, anyway you get the results based on your actions and diligence. This time India did act...Chinese are idiots picking fights with every neighbor of theirs.....they are never at ease with their neighbors historically speaking. No one trusts them in heart if you are a local to that region not just India but any other country in east asia.



    We understand India is buying more than planes and tanks and helicopters... but this is very very expensive and what favours will they end up getting... if any?

    Look at what France did to Libya... ruthless and brutal... and ultimately kicked themselves in the ass with migrants in Africa using Libya as a launch point to get to Europe... they broke a country because it suited them... will they break India too if it suits them?
    India is not a contributor to Libya or Syria or any other shitty geo political nonsense. Russia is the one that voted with UN along with France not India. Not sure why you are bringing up colonial criminal behavior of western countries into India's own purchase decision based on merits of its threat profile. 100 to 120 mil per plane that included some other things in the package is not that bad of deal, sure it is premium but worth it as it is marked for nuclear deterrent. Russia is also party to Iran sanctions....you have no leg to stand. Russia is always licking them until they push it so hard that only thing they can do is respond back. I have no sympathy for Islamic countries either not its followers, they are equally worse and given a chance they are as crude as one gets almost animalistic.



    You are getting into bed with the two countries that interfere the most in things that are not their business, and will tell you what to do from the hour you get up in the morning to the hour you go to bed... you are not just picking the wrong enemies, but also the wrong new friends.... but we can't make you see that... and Russia will not make demands of India... they must buy this or that, but as the US insinuates itself into your politics (BTW if you think Russian hacking and election meddling is funny you see what the CIA does, though they have probably been active there for most of the post WWII period to be honest).

    They are already telling you not to buy S-400... they will offer THAAD and Patriot for dozens of times more money despite they wont be as effective as S-400 and you will need US satellite time for them to work against ballistic missiles of course...
    Who? I was talking as man of west that never supported colonial adventures nor islamic invasions and forcibly converting locals. I just do not see a point in appeasement based left or neo con globalist. Both are dull, useless and unproductive to human development. There is beauty in traditions and respect for ancestors wisdom. Accept the bad along with good, no need to erase every identity. They have the balls to say native forests are being taken over by foreign species and fish and blah blah....idiotic level of dumbing down. They are also worried about protecting tribes in amazon but ok to ruin and dilute other countries.

    India did not back down on s-400....India is and mostly will be going local with AD partnering with Israel considering Chinese also use Russian radars or copies.



    Russia sold equipment to Armenia... not NK, and the stuff in Armenia was under Armenian control... what they did with it was their business.

    Not an expert on the situation but it seemed that officially Armenia did nothing to help NK and apart from lots of volunteers who went to help that Armenia did diddly squat. The leader of Armenia seemed to expect help from the west and it didn't come and asked for Russian help just before it was all over and they did what they could in the time available.

    They now have troops on the ground and are controlling the ceasefire.

    The alternative would be NK overrun and Armenian civilians killed again...
    Fine print....lost opportunity to put Turkey in its place and show abilities but I blame that Armenian dickhead more than anyone. Russia needs to take a side, Israelis have their way in Syria and now Armenia. Different discussion, hard to trust the claims as they are not proven but no reason to doubt its capabilities as they are military tech leaders.
    I thought you moved this stuff into bullocks.

    Missed a couple of posts that were partly about the Su-57.

    Now fixed.



    Just stating the facts that India is happy to spend billions on lighter less capable previous generation aircraft, but given the chance to have a real say in the design and development of their own 5th gen fighter joint development they don't have the money.

    Improved relations and further sales of US gear and some offers might not stay on the table.

    I am sure the Americans will be interested in Brahmos...

    It comes as more than stating, India culture is shifting and pushed towards homegrown....lobbyists have had their day. They are at a point to carry on their own.....not guarnteed they will be successful but no other option either. Partnerships are not what you may be thinking they are....generally no value in 7 out of 10 things. As Russia is pushed more into China orbit, India will excercise its judgement. Its just how interests work


    Funny way of doing things though... buying French Rafales and American Apaches which they are not allowed to put their own stuff in or produce locally, and are rejecting Russian aircraft that come with ToT and local assembly and production.... sure they buy S-400, but their medium SAM programme is an SA-6 which they seem to be converting into an SA-11 at a time when Russia is introducing Viking (BUKM3, as well as S-350) which are both superior...
    Not funny and neither is immediate....they have to work along multiple vectors in multivector world without hhurting themselves as a n emerging country. Rafales have merit even with premium....Apaches and US guns, I am not sure. US transports make sense and p8's make sense. Western stuff is expensive but a counterbalance to China. That is why they have to go home grown as its too expensive to just import.



    Some of those painful spares issues were self inflicted... if you want spare parts buy from the company that makes the product, not from a country wanting to make a bit of cash selling off excess parts that might be used parts passed as new.

    Lots of countries saved lots of money buying MiGs from operators of MiGs wanting to get rid of them instead of the maker, so of course when they needed new spare parts from the maker they are going to cost more because that is how they make their money.
    I don't think you have specifics, you are doing general talk.....it was so bad on Russian side that IAF did not even know where to reach out in that 90's confusion and constant changes on Russian side. Not a joke...

    Indian Rafales would get eaten alive by Chinese Su-35s, let alone their J-20s.

    The Rafale is a good aircraft, but too expensive to afford enough to make a real difference.

    I mean the last conflict with Pakistan and India is using MiG-21s... why not use Su-30s and M2000s if the latter are so wonderful.
    Lol, if Chinese had that confidence then they would have went for a hot war but they always chicken out when odds are not in their favor overwhelmingly. Rafale will have an edge over su-35 and China has very few of them and mostly lot of them are deployed away. I would not even comment on J-20 as it does not deserve one....let it shine in marketing. India did use Su-30, do you know how few planes grounded PAF on that night...they stayed well behind in their borders....same can be said about Turkey shooting down su-24. They could have used su-35 and so on. It is based on enemy going on offensive first and casuality is not something to shy away from in desigining a mission.....in every war PAF was grounded after first few days. India did use Mirages in that mission.....They can't keep up with soon to be 5 Trillion economy of billion plus people.
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:13 pm

    gbu48098 wrote:
    Lol, if Chinese had that confidence then they would have went for a hot war but they always chicken out when odds are not in their favor overwhelmingly. Rafale will have an edge over su-35 and China has very few of them and mostly lot of them are deployed away. I would not even comment on J-20 as it does not deserve one....let it shine in marketing. India did use Su-30, do you know how few planes grounded PAF on that night...they stayed well behind in their borders....same can be said about Turkey shooting down su-24. They could have used su-35 and so on. It is based on enemy going on offensive first and casuality is not something to shy away from in desigining a mission.....in every war PAF was grounded after first few days. India did use Mirages in that mission.....They can't keep up with soon to be 5 Trillion economy of billion plus people.

    Any observer not blinkered by nationalistic biases could see that the Rafale is at a marked disadvantage compared to the Su-35 and J-20. Inferior kinematics, limited payload capacity, also limited weapons package, a weaker radar and of course, costing far more than even its far superior competition. Yes, it does have its edges alright, just not in the right direction.

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    Post  gbu48098 Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:20 pm

    lyle6 wrote:
    gbu48098 wrote:
    Lol, if Chinese had that confidence then they would have went for a hot war but they always chicken out when odds are not in their favor overwhelmingly. Rafale will have an edge over su-35 and China has very few of them and mostly lot of them are deployed away. I would not even comment on J-20 as it does not deserve one....let it shine in marketing. India did use Su-30, do you know how few planes grounded PAF on that night...they stayed well behind in their borders....same can be said about Turkey shooting down su-24. They could have used su-35 and so on. It is based on enemy going on offensive first and casuality is not something to shy away from in desigining a mission.....in every war PAF was grounded after first few days. India did use Mirages in that mission.....They can't keep up with soon to be 5 Trillion economy of billion plus people.

    Any observer not blinkered by nationalistic biases could see that the Rafale is at a marked disadvantage compared to the Su-35 and J-20. Inferior kinematics, limited payload capacity, also limited weapons package, a weaker radar and of course, costing far more than even its far superior competition. Yes, it does have its edges alright, just not in the right direction.

    Different class, one is medium and other is heavy. Su-30 MKI is close enough to su-35S and considering where Indian bases are vs Chinese altitude and other wise should give you clues on strategies and tactics. India has more than enough heavy ones till 57 come along at which point it will be perfect to replace mki's.
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:39 pm

    gbu48098 wrote:
    Different class, one is medium and other is heavy. Su-30 MKI is close enough to su-35S and considering where Indian bases are vs Chinese altitude and other wise should give you clues on strategies and tactics. India has more than enough heavy ones till 57 come along at which point it will be perfect to replace mki's.
    Its medium class jet yet its price doesn't reflect it. That should've tipped you off that something's not quite right with the Rafale. It would've made sense if the Rafale is anywhere near close to the Su-35 in performance, but it just isn't. Its an outperformer for a medium class fighter but its just way out of its depth compared to the heavyweights.

    Its also funny that you are bringing altitude into the discussion: you do realize that the Rafale has the substantially inferior service ceiling compared to the Su-35 right? Its also much faster, and highly maneuverable to boot, all key parameters when engaging in BVR duels. So what was that you were saying about Indian bases and Chinese altitude again?

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    Post  gbu48098 Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:42 pm

    lyle6 wrote:
    gbu48098 wrote:
    Different class, one is medium and other is heavy. Su-30 MKI is close enough to su-35S and considering where Indian bases are vs Chinese altitude and other wise should give you clues on strategies and tactics. India has more than enough heavy ones till 57 come along at which point it will be perfect to replace mki's.
    Its medium class jet yet its price doesn't reflect it. That should've tipped you off that something's not quite right with the Rafale. It would've made sense if the Rafale is anywhere near close to the Su-35 in performance, but it just isn't. Its an outperformer for a medium class fighter but its just way out of its depth compared to the heavyweights.

    Its also funny that you are bringing altitude into the discussion: you do realize that the Rafale has the substantially inferior service ceiling compared to the Su-35 right? Its also much faster, and highly maneuverable to boot, all key parameters when engaging in BVR duels. So what was that you were saying about Indian bases and Chinese altitude again?

    You don't know what you are talking about....study the specs in more detail and try to understand. Medium does not mean it comes in at half price. It is not adult vs infant pricing.
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:59 pm

    gbu48098 wrote:

    You don't know what you are talking about....study the specs in more detail and try to understand. Medium does not mean it comes in at half price. It is not adult vs infant pricing.

    That's a tech support answer if I ever heard one. Is this the part where I give you the numbers on the back of my credit card, or does that come later?
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    Post  gbu48098 Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:41 pm

    lyle6 wrote:
    gbu48098 wrote:

    You don't know what you are talking about....study the specs in more detail and try to understand. Medium does not mean it comes in at half price. It is not adult vs infant pricing.

    That's a tech support answer if I ever heard one. Is this the part where I give you the numbers on the back of my credit card, or does that come later?

    That's because your comment was not worth to answer in detail. Rafale is capable of handling most missions and su-35s has no special ability that Rafale does not have in a potential interaction one on one. Win's are not necessarily dependent on Rafale or Su-35s, its pilot's skill and other tactics and luck. India needed a medium fighter as they already have heavy ones. Pound per pound Rafale has better specs. If you need a pickup you buy a pick up and you may also buy a compact if thats what you need. There is many to many relationship between tools and jobs and each comes with its own criteria and expected outcomes and relevant economic aspects and other quantifiable and qualitative concerns.
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    Post  lyle6 Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:27 pm

    gbu48098 wrote:
    That's because your comment was not worth to answer in detail. Rafale is capable of handling most missions and su-35s has no special ability that Rafale does not have in a potential interaction one on one. Win's are not necessarily dependent on Rafale or Su-35s, its pilot's skill and other tactics and luck. India needed a medium fighter as they already have heavy ones. Pound per pound Rafale has better specs. If you need a pickup you buy a pick up and you may also buy a compact if thats what you need. There is many to many relationship between tools and jobs and each comes with its own criteria and expected outcomes and relevant economic aspects and other quantifiable and qualitative concerns.

    What do you mean by pound per pound - how does that even make sense in this context? And Aphorism after aphorism. Total nonsense.

    Yeah, you know what, good luck with that Rafale thingy bud, you're gonna need it.
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    Post  gbu48098 Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:35 pm

    lyle6 wrote:
    gbu48098 wrote:
    That's because your comment was not worth to answer in detail. Rafale is capable of handling most missions and su-35s has no special ability that Rafale does not have in a potential interaction one on one. Win's are not necessarily dependent on Rafale or Su-35s, its pilot's skill and other tactics and luck. India needed a medium fighter as they already have heavy ones. Pound per pound Rafale has better specs. If you need a pickup you buy a pick up and you may also buy a compact if thats what you need. There is many to many relationship between tools and jobs and each comes with its own criteria and expected outcomes and relevant economic aspects and other quantifiable and qualitative concerns.

    What do you mean by pound per pound - how does that even make sense in this context? And Aphorism after aphorism. Total nonsense.

    Yeah, you know what, good luck with that Rafale thingy bud, you're gonna need it.

    That's why I said look at specs in detail....fuel fractions and flight profiles and so on. Airframe is different and each has its own pros and cons. They wanted medium and they went with medium, what are you doing bringing in a heavy fighter which they already have in hundreds? Their airforce knows what they want and need.....more so than you and by all means Rafale is the best non 5th gen but close to 5th gen fighter in its class. As far money is concerned thats India's and they can burn it if they want to....
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    Post  lancelot Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:01 am

    By making Taiwan irrelevant to Chinese manufacturers, the US has only hastened Taiwan's demise.

    Ever since Taiwan blocked sales to Huawei the PLA started doing flights over the median line between the PRC and the ROC.
    These keep increasing in frequency and intensity. To begin with it was just a couple H-6Ks.
    Now they send a lot of J-16s, AEW&C aircraft, ASW aircraft, J-10s for escort, and the H-6Ks.
    The ROC Air Force already has thrown in the towel and gave up sending their F-16s against the PRC's aircraft.
    The Taiwanese cannot afford the expense and aircraft attrition.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-taiwan-defence-idUSKBN27Y08V
    https://www.reuters.com/article/taiwan-security-idUSKCN26H08Z

    Now the US is having to send their own F-16s all the way from Okinawa.
    This means the US has to use fuel tankers to refuel those F-16s which I doubt is cheap for Uncle Sham.


    Last edited by lancelot on Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:12 am; edited 1 time in total

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:10 am

    lancelot wrote:By making Taiwan irrelevant to Chinese manufacturers, the US has only hastened Taiwan's demise.

    Ever since Taiwan blocked sales to Huawei the PLA started doing flights over the median line between the PRC and the ROC.
    These keep increasing in frequency and intensity.
    The Taiwanese Air Force already has thrown in the towel and gave up sending their F-16s against the PRC's aircraft.

    Now the US is having to send their own F-16s all the way from Okinawa.
    This means the US has to use fuel tankers to refuel those F-16s which I doubt is cheap for Uncle Sham.


    Uncle Scumbag lost his chance to cripple China's access to leading edge ICs. China has basically deployed fabrication capacity
    at 14 nm and moving to below 10 nm. Since there is no material continuity at 3 nm and no deterministic logic can operate already
    at 5 nm (note that this lithographic resolution is a marketing gimmick like TSMCs "7 nm" crock which is the same as Intel's over 10 nm
    process with actual etched component sizes at 10 nm), China has already reached the bleeding edge. It is not several generations
    behind.

    So Taiwan was told to screw itself over by the Americans, even if they don't realize it.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:20 am

    The last 2 posts r in the wrong thread!
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:03 am

    You always end up with US as some shithole place that has no creativity and Russia as some wonderland of creativity.

    Not at all... some of their products are quite good... my problem is the way the start wars for fun and the way they treat other countries... they have no respect for any other country and while holding other countries to high moral and ethical standards ignore them regarding their own actions.

    They are not a good friend.

    I can't make India do anything and I wouldn't even if I could... just saying your future is not with the west as it is at the moment.

    Any honorable person with integrity should find this repulsive....does not matter nationality.

    You talk about me being too western, while you apply western ideas of honour and integrity... you are born and you live and then you die... did you develop the language you speak or did you adopt and learn the languages the people around you spoke so you could communicate... isn't that stealing... at some point someone made up those words and never earned any money for their invention... their work.

    The US makes an F-35 to kill people. Every country has spies and would like access to look at that weapon system... sounds like some Chinese got hold of a lot of secret information about that plane. Ironically their copy probably has fewer problems than the American version but is probably also less capable because you can't copy instruments and sensors and engines from plans, unless they have full production plans with materials and methods of manufacture included... which I doubt.

    The Chinese copied German naval diesel engines... when the Germans stopped selling them to Russia then Russia bought some from China only to find they were terribly unreliable... it is easy to take something apart and copy all the parts and make several copies and then assemble all the parts together, but do you match the parts exactly... are they the same hardness, are the correct materials being used in the right alloys. The Chinese copies in this case broke down... it is likely they had parts that needed to be harder or softer or made of different alloys so they wouldn't wear so quickly... it would be something to work on over time to get right.

    The Chinese want to make their own engines, the Russians just wanted engines quick so the bought the only alternative available at the time, but now they have developed their own versions of the German engines... presumably testing the alloys and metallurgy to make sure their copies are as reliable as the german models.... building them themselves has slowed things down but now they have engines in that class they can sell on the open market and they can take the time to improve performance and of course it is going to be cheaper than German made models... it was a serious mistake for Germany to stop selling engines, but politics was more important it seems.

    You can claim Russia copied the German engines and they did, but they only did it because they already had boats needing the engines and germany stopped selling them. Scrapping the ships or redesigning the ships and then developing new engines would be expensive and take too much time and they would still be developing new engines... engines in that size and weight and power would be useful for other things if they were making them for themselves...

    Inspired by an idea and building on your own is different from taking someones work under shamelessly do it as a hobby are two different things.

    Have you ever designed anything professionally?

    The first step is to outline exactly what the goals and needs and requirements of the new design are... what does it have to do and how.

    The second step is to look at all other available solutions to the various problems including previous attempts and products and any other solutions from any other maker or country.

    For every problem there are a range of solutions and being smart and picking a selection of solutions that maximises performance is the key to developing a useful product.

    Case in point was the US Space Shuttle. Think of it as a big heavy plane... a C-130 perhaps, but the energy needed to get it to space is enormous so you fit a fuel tank bigger than the aircraft to its belly... with all this weight its engines can't be powerful enough to get it moving let alone to space so they have two solid rocket boosters to get it moving and climbing.

    Its engines are about 10 tons so once it gets to space and the solid rocket motors are gone and the enormous fuel tank is gone it is just the plane with its engines... it weighs about 120 tons and has ten tons of engines and about 20 tons of payload capacity... take up and bring back.

    The solid rocket motor are enormously expensive and are not reused. The fuel tanks is huge and is recoverable but all the repair and inspection... it is not cheap to reuse either.

    The shuttle itself has 10 tons of engine deadweight it carries around in space and brings back.

    The Buran looks the same... when it was revealed it was called a copy and they did use the exterior shape of the US Space Shuttle... but why would they not?

    NASA spent 2 billion dollars using super computers testing thousands of different shapes and designs before coming up with the shape that could be made at the time and would work... how many billions of dollars should the Soviets have spent finding their own shape... and would it be different enough for the west to not call it a copy anyway?

    Look at a MiG-25 and an F-15... no one in the west calls the F-15 a copy of the MiG-25...

    The point is that the Buran is totally different from the US space shuttle on a fundamental level... the Buran doesn't have main engines or huge fuel tanks or solid rocket boosters... the Buran is a glider that sits on a big rocket called Energya.

    The Buran is about 105 tons and has a 30 ton payload and no engines that are dead weight in flight.

    More importantly if you are building a space station the 105 ton Buran can be removed from the Energya rocket and a 120 ton component of a space station or another space ship can be fitted and launched.

    There are different levels of copying... they almost never copy 100%... even the Tu-4 copy of the B-29 has 20mm cannon in its gun turrets instead of 50 cal machine guns, and the Soviet engines were more powerful than the engines the Americans used.

    The Soviets licence produced DC-3 transport aircraft... Soviet specialists went to the US and it too them 2 years to convert the plans for teh DC-3 from Imperial measures to metric and that was working with the makers. It wasn't just sizes and angles but sheet metal materials if different thicknesses result in different strengths or flexibilities and of course different weights...

    Copying is normally a desperate measure when there is no option to buy for Russia, but for the Chinese a good idea is a good idea... using a good idea is not stealing.... how can you own an idea?

    US was full of creativity and still is although on a decline....

    I am not worried about India getting hardware that is not very good, I have not problem with their engineers, it is their managers and politicians that over charge you and want you to get into a fight with China to weaken both potential rivals. As long as you are buddies with the US they will do what they do to everyone... hold you back... the US is the first world... the second world used to be the commies... similar technology but communist ideology so not seen as a great commercial threat. The third world is everyone else... countries that lack technology but generally have resources that are to be exploited but not allowed to get to second or first world status because we don't want challengers to our hegemony...

    Russia wants to trade and not tell India what to do and certainly not turn India and China against each other for entertainment and exploitation.

    Can lead a horse to water...

    Not everything comesdown to buck, there is something called common sense and feeding potential opponent, West did the same thing and now struggling to check China as a competitor. There is no replacement for wisdom....hope Russian's are smarter than that.

    Why would they refuse to sell to China if they pay for the technology and follow the rules of the contracts... they have built 6 aircraft carriers in the last few years, and are building destroyers and other ships in large numbers... spending 100 billion to have a very strong air force would make obvious sense... imagine the panic in Japan and the US if China and Russia announced that China would make 1,000 Su-57s in China... even if they use the current engines that would be a formidable force... what would the US do... ramp up production of the F-35 which is so expensive to operate it might kill off a few air forces in HATO, or do they make 3,000 new F-15s... or put the F-22 back into production....

    They might want their own radars and other systems to be integrated but for a big order that is no problem.

    Russian's need reliable economically strong allies like west to push its equipment. Other than that....not many harmless and self damaging options.

    What are you smoking, the west is working against Russia and China at the moment, and wouldn't start buying Russian stuff even if they needed it.

    A couple of countries are buying Sputnik V but only when it is approved... it was the first vaccine made and seems to be the last one they are testing...

    Russia needs trade with every country on the planet that will trade... that essentially excludes most of the west, but that is fine there are a lot of other countries who want free and fair and open trade with a country not trying to control them or screw them like the west has been doing for the last few centuries.

    Tejas is good enough with 500 to 700 km combat range to offload the mig-21 point interception role and with uttam AESA and BVR along with Sukhois mixed in, they can more than rule Pakistan in air battles. This is the cheapest and most logical for them to support their domestic efforts and put money back in their own economy. They have more than enough mig-29s and sukhois and once 57 goes main stream, they may replace mkis with them.

    How many tejas do they have in service?

    I am sure the Americans are not going to be happy their new partner in their alliance is not using US planes for commonality and compatibility... pretty soon they will have to buy Hornets for their carriers and of course will need steam cats for them to work which means buying old US carriers...

    A large part of getting India into the team against China is to make a lot of money selling old US ships to India to bulk out its fleet...

    And they wont operate with you if you have S-400.... you will need to buy Patriot and THAAD instead...

    Rafales are certainly edge over China, best fighter designed with optimal configuration and the gear that goes with it.

    China can put up more planes than the Rafales carry missiles... you only have 36 of them...

    Chinese broke the trust with India again and again and India learned its lesson and now even has a govt that has strategy to kick them in the shins if they underestimate.

    So enemy it is... join a gang so you are not fighting on your own... maybe Indonesia will join BRCS...

    Diversity on two fronts, not fall victim to commonality of Russian equipment between China and India and the horrible spares experience with Russians with 90% dependancy on them.

    Most of the problems with spare parts was that India has huge bureaucracy, and it ordered spare parts when it needed them... it had no spare parts pool or plan, while the Russian companies made the parts to order and couldn't afford to make enormous numbers of parts and just have then sitting waiting to be ordered.

    The solution to any spares or support problems is a sensible support contract... there should be no problems in that area going forward at all.

    India was not victim of French sanctions as India is not Russia in the context of France.....

    No, you are a victim of French interests... India wanted to buy the Mirage 2000 production facilities and tooling to make M2ks in India and France refused and demanded they buy the much more expensive Rafale. They wouldn't budge on price either, so India started a programme and set the parameters to be a 10 billion dollar programme for 126 aircraft. India ended up paying 8.4 billion for 36 Rafales.

    And it isn't the same as the Gorshov sale where the price of the ship went from 750K to 1.75 billion. They could have stuck to the original price and kept the old pipes and wiring and India would have ended up with a real dog.

    (note the other 750K was for 14 MiG-29KR and Ka-31 AEW helicopters and also SAR helicopters too.... essentially the air wing.)

    so far France is sanction proof for India based on data as of this point.

    Sanction proof as long as you keep spending 240 million per aircraft...

    You really need to take a new look and not consumed so much by bias. Unwarranted and ill considered bias is waste of brain matter and has no positive results in general especially on significant issues.

    Ignoring history means you are doomed to repeat past mistakes.

    Not sure why you are bringing up colonial criminal behavior of western countries into India's own purchase decision based on merits of its threat profile.

    It was the French that drove that assassination of a country... I assumed you would have noticed because they used Rafales to do it.

    The French used to be an ally to Gadaffi... and sold them stuff too.

    100 to 120 mil per plane that included some other things in the package is not that bad of deal, sure it is premium but worth it as it is marked for nuclear deterrent.

    More like double that... and I love how you brush off a 4th gen fighter costing more than a 5th gen one...

    Russia is also party to Iran sanctions....you have no leg to stand.

    Russia signed the agreement with Iran which they are still honouring... it is the EU under threat of sanctions from the US and of course the US that are putting sanctions on Iran.

    India did not back down on s-400...

    You didn't notice the difference?

    US telling you not to buy S-400... what is Russia telling you not to buy? Apaches?, C-17?, Chinook helicopters?... none of the above...

    Fine print....lost opportunity to put Turkey in its place and show abilities but I blame that Armenian dickhead more than anyone.

    He didn't ask for help, so why would anyone expect Russia to poke its nose in?

    Russia needs to take a side, Israelis have their way in Syria and now Armenia.

    Russia took action when asked and prevented more of NK changing hands... in fact I would say the problem seemed to be it was Azerbaijan vs NK and Armenia seemed to try to keep out of it, so in that sense the Russians probably did more than the Armenian military in that conflict... not counting Armenian volunteers of course.

    It comes as more than stating, India culture is shifting and pushed towards homegrown....lobbyists have had their day.

    You are not getting it though... Russia is happy to sell their existing technology for Indian to make and own and perhaps further develop. They are also open to joint ventures to make stuff neither side already has or to improve something Russia already has... Brahmos is just a Yakhont upgraded, Su-30MKI is just an upgraded Su-30M, but India have made those products theirs.

    List the joint ventures and development programmes with France and the US....

    But to you India needs to get away from Russia and become better buddies with the two countries that are not interested in India making modern stuff...

    As Russia is pushed more into China orbit, India will excercise its judgement. Its just how interests work

    Hahaha, of course, the problem is Russia turning away from India and not India getting into bed with the US who is demanding India stop dealing with Russia or China...

    But you make your own choices and enjoy that soverignty...

    US transports make sense and p8's make sense. Western stuff is expensive but a counterbalance to China. That is why they have to go home grown as its too expensive to just import.

    You talk about India going its own way and then talk about buying C-17s at half a billion dollars each!!!!

    You could have put some funds up and said to Russia that you want to produce Il-476s in India and made hundreds of them for that sort of money... but you would also be making them yourself which you claim is important.

    Su-30MKIs are cheaper than Rafales and you are making the Flankers yourself which should make it more expensive...

    I don't think you have specifics, you are doing general talk.....it was so bad on Russian side that IAF did not even know where to reach out in that 90's confusion and constant changes on Russian side. Not a joke...

    OK so lets say the economic problems of the 1990s created problems for getting spares... if that is going to make Russia a bad choice for future purchases then surely the US funding and supporting Pakistan up to and including sending their navy to help Pakistan in conflicts against India might be a bit of a black mark against being friends with them...

    Russia has sold some Hip helicopters to Pakistan and some BTR-80s too, but they have never sent a carrier group to support any of their attacks on India AFAIK.

    same can be said about Turkey shooting down su-24. They could have used su-35 and so on.

    The Turkish shoot down of the Su-24 was a surprise sneak attack from behind... an Su-35 might have survived it but at that stage they didn't have any there... ISIS doesn't have any fighter aircraft and they weren't expecting Turkey to act as such.


    Different class, one is medium and other is heavy

    That is true, but it doesn't make any difference... the only problem with heavy fighters is that they are expensive, the advantage of medium fighters is that they are cheaper so you can buy more. A medium fighter more expensive than a heavy fighter is a problem.

    India has more than enough heavy ones till 57 come along at which point it will be perfect to replace mki's.

    India has rejected the Su-57... said it wasn't good enough to invest in...

    Medium does not mean it comes in at half price. It is not adult vs infant pricing.

    Medium fighters are generally much cheaper so they can be bought and used in much larger numbers than the bigger heavier fighters.

    The Russians are not even going for light fighters and just have heavy and mediums.

    They wanted medium and they went with medium, what are you doing bringing in a heavy fighter which they already have in hundreds?

    When you are paying 3-4 times more for your medium fighter it makes sense to drop the medium fighter and just buy more heavy fighters.

    In context it is like the F-22 costing 250 million per aircraft but the F-35 costing 750 million per aircraft... sure they are different and offer different skills and potential but it just makes sense buying more F-22s than spending more on a smaller lighter and generally less capable fighter.

    But then as you say the US has plenty of money to waste so why not waste it... why not indeed.

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