You always end up with US as some shithole place that has no creativity and Russia as some wonderland of creativity.
Not at all... some of their products are quite good... my problem is the way the start wars for fun and the way they treat other countries... they have no respect for any other country and while holding other countries to high moral and ethical standards ignore them regarding their own actions.
They are not a good friend.
I can't make India do anything and I wouldn't even if I could... just saying your future is not with the west as it is at the moment.
Any honorable person with integrity should find this repulsive....does not matter nationality.
You talk about me being too western, while you apply western ideas of honour and integrity... you are born and you live and then you die... did you develop the language you speak or did you adopt and learn the languages the people around you spoke so you could communicate... isn't that stealing... at some point someone made up those words and never earned any money for their invention... their work.
The US makes an F-35 to kill people. Every country has spies and would like access to look at that weapon system... sounds like some Chinese got hold of a lot of secret information about that plane. Ironically their copy probably has fewer problems than the American version but is probably also less capable because you can't copy instruments and sensors and engines from plans, unless they have full production plans with materials and methods of manufacture included... which I doubt.
The Chinese copied German naval diesel engines... when the Germans stopped selling them to Russia then Russia bought some from China only to find they were terribly unreliable... it is easy to take something apart and copy all the parts and make several copies and then assemble all the parts together, but do you match the parts exactly... are they the same hardness, are the correct materials being used in the right alloys. The Chinese copies in this case broke down... it is likely they had parts that needed to be harder or softer or made of different alloys so they wouldn't wear so quickly... it would be something to work on over time to get right.
The Chinese want to make their own engines, the Russians just wanted engines quick so the bought the only alternative available at the time, but now they have developed their own versions of the German engines... presumably testing the alloys and metallurgy to make sure their copies are as reliable as the german models.... building them themselves has slowed things down but now they have engines in that class they can sell on the open market and they can take the time to improve performance and of course it is going to be cheaper than German made models... it was a serious mistake for Germany to stop selling engines, but politics was more important it seems.
You can claim Russia copied the German engines and they did, but they only did it because they already had boats needing the engines and germany stopped selling them. Scrapping the ships or redesigning the ships and then developing new engines would be expensive and take too much time and they would still be developing new engines... engines in that size and weight and power would be useful for other things if they were making them for themselves...
Inspired by an idea and building on your own is different from taking someones work under shamelessly do it as a hobby are two different things.
Have you ever designed anything professionally?
The first step is to outline exactly what the goals and needs and requirements of the new design are... what does it have to do and how.
The second step is to look at all other available solutions to the various problems including previous attempts and products and any other solutions from any other maker or country.
For every problem there are a range of solutions and being smart and picking a selection of solutions that maximises performance is the key to developing a useful product.
Case in point was the US Space Shuttle. Think of it as a big heavy plane... a C-130 perhaps, but the energy needed to get it to space is enormous so you fit a fuel tank bigger than the aircraft to its belly... with all this weight its engines can't be powerful enough to get it moving let alone to space so they have two solid rocket boosters to get it moving and climbing.
Its engines are about 10 tons so once it gets to space and the solid rocket motors are gone and the enormous fuel tank is gone it is just the plane with its engines... it weighs about 120 tons and has ten tons of engines and about 20 tons of payload capacity... take up and bring back.
The solid rocket motor are enormously expensive and are not reused. The fuel tanks is huge and is recoverable but all the repair and inspection... it is not cheap to reuse either.
The shuttle itself has 10 tons of engine deadweight it carries around in space and brings back.
The Buran looks the same... when it was revealed it was called a copy and they did use the exterior shape of the US Space Shuttle... but why would they not?
NASA spent 2 billion dollars using super computers testing thousands of different shapes and designs before coming up with the shape that could be made at the time and would work... how many billions of dollars should the Soviets have spent finding their own shape... and would it be different enough for the west to not call it a copy anyway?
Look at a MiG-25 and an F-15... no one in the west calls the F-15 a copy of the MiG-25...
The point is that the Buran is totally different from the US space shuttle on a fundamental level... the Buran doesn't have main engines or huge fuel tanks or solid rocket boosters... the Buran is a glider that sits on a big rocket called Energya.
The Buran is about 105 tons and has a 30 ton payload and no engines that are dead weight in flight.
More importantly if you are building a space station the 105 ton Buran can be removed from the Energya rocket and a 120 ton component of a space station or another space ship can be fitted and launched.
There are different levels of copying... they almost never copy 100%... even the Tu-4 copy of the B-29 has 20mm cannon in its gun turrets instead of 50 cal machine guns, and the Soviet engines were more powerful than the engines the Americans used.
The Soviets licence produced DC-3 transport aircraft... Soviet specialists went to the US and it too them 2 years to convert the plans for teh DC-3 from Imperial measures to metric and that was working with the makers. It wasn't just sizes and angles but sheet metal materials if different thicknesses result in different strengths or flexibilities and of course different weights...
Copying is normally a desperate measure when there is no option to buy for Russia, but for the Chinese a good idea is a good idea... using a good idea is not stealing.... how can you own an idea?
US was full of creativity and still is although on a decline....
I am not worried about India getting hardware that is not very good, I have not problem with their engineers, it is their managers and politicians that over charge you and want you to get into a fight with China to weaken both potential rivals. As long as you are buddies with the US they will do what they do to everyone... hold you back... the US is the first world... the second world used to be the commies... similar technology but communist ideology so not seen as a great commercial threat. The third world is everyone else... countries that lack technology but generally have resources that are to be exploited but not allowed to get to second or first world status because we don't want challengers to our hegemony...
Russia wants to trade and not tell India what to do and certainly not turn India and China against each other for entertainment and exploitation.
Can lead a horse to water...
Not everything comesdown to buck, there is something called common sense and feeding potential opponent, West did the same thing and now struggling to check China as a competitor. There is no replacement for wisdom....hope Russian's are smarter than that.
Why would they refuse to sell to China if they pay for the technology and follow the rules of the contracts... they have built 6 aircraft carriers in the last few years, and are building destroyers and other ships in large numbers... spending 100 billion to have a very strong air force would make obvious sense... imagine the panic in Japan and the US if China and Russia announced that China would make 1,000 Su-57s in China... even if they use the current engines that would be a formidable force... what would the US do... ramp up production of the F-35 which is so expensive to operate it might kill off a few air forces in HATO, or do they make 3,000 new F-15s... or put the F-22 back into production....
They might want their own radars and other systems to be integrated but for a big order that is no problem.
Russian's need reliable economically strong allies like west to push its equipment. Other than that....not many harmless and self damaging options.
What are you smoking, the west is working against Russia and China at the moment, and wouldn't start buying Russian stuff even if they needed it.
A couple of countries are buying Sputnik V but only when it is approved... it was the first vaccine made and seems to be the last one they are testing...
Russia needs trade with every country on the planet that will trade... that essentially excludes most of the west, but that is fine there are a lot of other countries who want free and fair and open trade with a country not trying to control them or screw them like the west has been doing for the last few centuries.
Tejas is good enough with 500 to 700 km combat range to offload the mig-21 point interception role and with uttam AESA and BVR along with Sukhois mixed in, they can more than rule Pakistan in air battles. This is the cheapest and most logical for them to support their domestic efforts and put money back in their own economy. They have more than enough mig-29s and sukhois and once 57 goes main stream, they may replace mkis with them.
How many tejas do they have in service?
I am sure the Americans are not going to be happy their new partner in their alliance is not using US planes for commonality and compatibility... pretty soon they will have to buy Hornets for their carriers and of course will need steam cats for them to work which means buying old US carriers...
A large part of getting India into the team against China is to make a lot of money selling old US ships to India to bulk out its fleet...
And they wont operate with you if you have S-400.... you will need to buy Patriot and THAAD instead...
Rafales are certainly edge over China, best fighter designed with optimal configuration and the gear that goes with it.
China can put up more planes than the Rafales carry missiles... you only have 36 of them...
Chinese broke the trust with India again and again and India learned its lesson and now even has a govt that has strategy to kick them in the shins if they underestimate.
So enemy it is... join a gang so you are not fighting on your own... maybe Indonesia will join BRCS...
Diversity on two fronts, not fall victim to commonality of Russian equipment between China and India and the horrible spares experience with Russians with 90% dependancy on them.
Most of the problems with spare parts was that India has huge bureaucracy, and it ordered spare parts when it needed them... it had no spare parts pool or plan, while the Russian companies made the parts to order and couldn't afford to make enormous numbers of parts and just have then sitting waiting to be ordered.
The solution to any spares or support problems is a sensible support contract... there should be no problems in that area going forward at all.
India was not victim of French sanctions as India is not Russia in the context of France.....
No, you are a victim of French interests... India wanted to buy the Mirage 2000 production facilities and tooling to make M2ks in India and France refused and demanded they buy the much more expensive Rafale. They wouldn't budge on price either, so India started a programme and set the parameters to be a 10 billion dollar programme for 126 aircraft. India ended up paying 8.4 billion for 36 Rafales.
And it isn't the same as the Gorshov sale where the price of the ship went from 750K to 1.75 billion. They could have stuck to the original price and kept the old pipes and wiring and India would have ended up with a real dog.
(note the other 750K was for 14 MiG-29KR and Ka-31 AEW helicopters and also SAR helicopters too.... essentially the air wing.)
so far France is sanction proof for India based on data as of this point.
Sanction proof as long as you keep spending 240 million per aircraft...
You really need to take a new look and not consumed so much by bias. Unwarranted and ill considered bias is waste of brain matter and has no positive results in general especially on significant issues.
Ignoring history means you are doomed to repeat past mistakes.
Not sure why you are bringing up colonial criminal behavior of western countries into India's own purchase decision based on merits of its threat profile.
It was the French that drove that assassination of a country... I assumed you would have noticed because they used Rafales to do it.
The French used to be an ally to Gadaffi... and sold them stuff too.
100 to 120 mil per plane that included some other things in the package is not that bad of deal, sure it is premium but worth it as it is marked for nuclear deterrent.
More like double that... and I love how you brush off a 4th gen fighter costing more than a 5th gen one...
Russia is also party to Iran sanctions....you have no leg to stand.
Russia signed the agreement with Iran which they are still honouring... it is the EU under threat of sanctions from the US and of course the US that are putting sanctions on Iran.
India did not back down on s-400...
You didn't notice the difference?
US telling you not to buy S-400... what is Russia telling you not to buy? Apaches?, C-17?, Chinook helicopters?... none of the above...
Fine print....lost opportunity to put Turkey in its place and show abilities but I blame that Armenian dickhead more than anyone.
He didn't ask for help, so why would anyone expect Russia to poke its nose in?
Russia needs to take a side, Israelis have their way in Syria and now Armenia.
Russia took action when asked and prevented more of NK changing hands... in fact I would say the problem seemed to be it was Azerbaijan vs NK and Armenia seemed to try to keep out of it, so in that sense the Russians probably did more than the Armenian military in that conflict... not counting Armenian volunteers of course.
It comes as more than stating, India culture is shifting and pushed towards homegrown....lobbyists have had their day.
You are not getting it though... Russia is happy to sell their existing technology for Indian to make and own and perhaps further develop. They are also open to joint ventures to make stuff neither side already has or to improve something Russia already has... Brahmos is just a Yakhont upgraded, Su-30MKI is just an upgraded Su-30M, but India have made those products theirs.
List the joint ventures and development programmes with France and the US....
But to you India needs to get away from Russia and become better buddies with the two countries that are not interested in India making modern stuff...
As Russia is pushed more into China orbit, India will excercise its judgement. Its just how interests work
Hahaha, of course, the problem is Russia turning away from India and not India getting into bed with the US who is demanding India stop dealing with Russia or China...
But you make your own choices and enjoy that soverignty...
US transports make sense and p8's make sense. Western stuff is expensive but a counterbalance to China. That is why they have to go home grown as its too expensive to just import.
You talk about India going its own way and then talk about buying C-17s at half a billion dollars each!!!!
You could have put some funds up and said to Russia that you want to produce Il-476s in India and made hundreds of them for that sort of money... but you would also be making them yourself which you claim is important.
Su-30MKIs are cheaper than Rafales and you are making the Flankers yourself which should make it more expensive...
I don't think you have specifics, you are doing general talk.....it was so bad on Russian side that IAF did not even know where to reach out in that 90's confusion and constant changes on Russian side. Not a joke...
OK so lets say the economic problems of the 1990s created problems for getting spares... if that is going to make Russia a bad choice for future purchases then surely the US funding and supporting Pakistan up to and including sending their navy to help Pakistan in conflicts against India might be a bit of a black mark against being friends with them...
Russia has sold some Hip helicopters to Pakistan and some BTR-80s too, but they have never sent a carrier group to support any of their attacks on India AFAIK.
same can be said about Turkey shooting down su-24. They could have used su-35 and so on.
The Turkish shoot down of the Su-24 was a surprise sneak attack from behind... an Su-35 might have survived it but at that stage they didn't have any there... ISIS doesn't have any fighter aircraft and they weren't expecting Turkey to act as such.
Different class, one is medium and other is heavy
That is true, but it doesn't make any difference... the only problem with heavy fighters is that they are expensive, the advantage of medium fighters is that they are cheaper so you can buy more. A medium fighter more expensive than a heavy fighter is a problem.
India has more than enough heavy ones till 57 come along at which point it will be perfect to replace mki's.
India has rejected the Su-57... said it wasn't good enough to invest in...
Medium does not mean it comes in at half price. It is not adult vs infant pricing.
Medium fighters are generally much cheaper so they can be bought and used in much larger numbers than the bigger heavier fighters.
The Russians are not even going for light fighters and just have heavy and mediums.
They wanted medium and they went with medium, what are you doing bringing in a heavy fighter which they already have in hundreds?
When you are paying 3-4 times more for your medium fighter it makes sense to drop the medium fighter and just buy more heavy fighters.
In context it is like the F-22 costing 250 million per aircraft but the F-35 costing 750 million per aircraft... sure they are different and offer different skills and potential but it just makes sense buying more F-22s than spending more on a smaller lighter and generally less capable fighter.
But then as you say the US has plenty of money to waste so why not waste it... why not indeed.
Home
Latest images
Register
Log in
lyle6
