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    Talking bollocks thread #3

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    gbu48098

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    Post  gbu48098 Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:32 am

    Backman wrote:The bitching from India about the su 57 was all fiction hyped by the western defense media.It allegedly came from the air force. The air force had zero inside knowledge of the Pak Fa. Only the Indian MIC/procurment would've had some inside info and they weren't the ones bitching.

    The engine ? That's like saying the su 35 is under powered. Who says that.

    The pro US faction in India wanted to get the deal cancelled. And they succeed.

    Why is it bitching? Are they not allowed to have their security criteria? India can't just keep buying Russian or other countries forever, it is a major country with lots of human resources and they will claim their place slowly but gradually. Unlike last 60 years and almost 1000 years of on and off occupations by muzzies and british, they have a nationalist gov now that cares about their traditions, achievements and place in the world. Tejas is the first step and 2nd and 3rd steps would be faster than 1st step and they are already getting better on local designs of missiles and other systems. Russia sells to China, therefore India can't depend on the Russian equipment as the strategies based on pros and cons will to some extent common knowledge to China, therefore you see the mixing of components from local, Israel and France but thats the best they can do till they indigenize. It is a fact Russian's downgrade export equipment as their market is trash countries in Europe like Turkey/Greece and east European or even Egypt and others that give their equipment to West. I named Greece as they are a bunch similar to Australia and NZ and UK and some other spineless countries that shoot themselves, Canada and almost all of Europe minus a bit of France. No personal disrespect to members from these countries.

    If you evaluate every criticism to some conspiracy then you have plenty of time to waste. Real partnership with India is unique and valuable to Russia and viceversa.
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    Post  Backman Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:26 am

    gbu48098 wrote:
    Backman wrote:The bitching from India about the su 57 was all fiction hyped by the western defense media.It allegedly came from the air force. The air force had zero inside knowledge of the Pak Fa. Only the Indian MIC/procurment would've had some inside info and they weren't the ones bitching.

    The engine ? That's like saying the su 35 is under powered. Who says that.

    The pro US faction in India wanted to get the deal cancelled. And they succeed.

    Why is it bitching? Are they not allowed to have their security criteria?

    Sure. Honest questions are fine. But it was all politics. You are free to believe that these internet shit post style complaints are legit. It is pure nonsense and the su 57 reputation suffered because of this ridiculous bullshit.


    https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/russia-can-t-deliver-on-fifth-generation-fighter-aircraft-iaf-114012100059_1.html

    Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF's three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate,  and (c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, "a large percentage of IAF's capital budget will be locked up."

    On January 15, the IAF renewed the attack in New Delhi, at a MoD meeting to review progress on the FGFA. The IAF's deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared the FGFA's engine was unreliable, (oh unreliable now eh?) its radar inadequate, (The radar ain't good enough. Never heard this one before)its stealth features badly engineered, India's work share too low, and that the fighter's price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.

    Same article..............................

    Top MoD sources suspect the IAF is undermining the FGFA to free up finances for buying 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated $18 billion, an acquisition that has run into financial headwinds because of budgetary constraints.

    Another article.

    India is concerned about the fighter jet’s stealth capabilities, avionics (ah avionics isn't good enough now) and the engines as the current NPO Saturn AL-41F1 engines are not adequate to power the jet, National Interest news daily reported Tuesday.

    Then the Dbags at the Drivel had to get in on it. They declared the whole Pak Fa/su 57 program "effectively dead" in 2018.

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/20347/its-no-surprise-india-finally-ditched-its-stealth-fighter-program-with-russia
    With the project effectively dead, the future of both India's stealth fighter plans and Russia's Su-57 are in limbo.

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    Post  lyle6 Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:57 am

    gbu48098 wrote:

    Why is it bitching? Are they not allowed to have their security criteria? India can't just keep buying Russian or other countries forever, it is a major country with lots of human resources and they will claim their place slowly but gradually. Unlike last 60 years and almost 1000 years of on and off occupations by muzzies and british, they have a nationalist gov now that cares about their traditions, achievements and place in the world. Tejas is the first step and 2nd and 3rd steps would be faster than 1st step and they are already getting better on local designs of missiles and other systems. Russia sells to China, therefore India can't depend on the Russian equipment as the strategies based on pros and cons will to some extent common knowledge to China, therefore you see the mixing of components from local, Israel and France but thats the best they can do till they indigenize. It is a fact Russian's downgrade export equipment as their market is trash countries in Europe like Turkey/Greece and east European or even Egypt and others that give their equipment to West. I named Greece as they are a bunch similar to Australia and NZ and UK and some other spineless countries that shoot themselves, Canada and almost all of Europe minus a bit of France. No personal disrespect to members from these countries.

    If you evaluate every criticism to some conspiracy then you have plenty of time to waste. Real partnership with India is unique and valuable to Russia and viceversa.

    And what does India expect? That Russia would just part with its best technologies for what is India paying for? Bullshit. They should learn that in business you get what you pay for, and quite frankly India is up there when it comes to niggardly customers.

    Its also not a good idea to piss off your arms supplier, just as it is no good idea to piss of the people who serve your food. By airing these frankly inane complaints they are damaging the reputation of Russia's wares and hurting further prospects for business. What kind of a partner does that?

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    Post  GarryB Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:38 am

    By now a cheapo propeller plane with some EO detection system and a couple small missiles is enough, insome years we will start seeing the drones fighting against drones and very quickly we will be talking about not every UAV being survivable even for some minutes against advanced unmanned "fighters". I guess from the onwards the roles of manned and unmanned fighters will get mixed as you say.

    Well I think what will probably happen is that some companies will probably try to make current fighters able to be manned or unmanned... that is already happening so not really much of a prediction, but especially in the west that just wont be affordable and they will end up having fewer drones than fighters, because they will cost almost as much but when something goes wrong there is no human there to try to save the drone on board so attrition rates will be higher with the drones.

    I think designs will change radically, but in the end the real change is pretty obvious... instead of having a manouverable dog fighter drone, it probably makes more sense to simply make it super fast instead... we already have unmanned air vehicles that try to destroy fighters... they are called air to air missiles and surface to air missiles, so instead of putting AI in a drone and making it super manouverable, I think put the AI in the missile and just make them so fast you can't dodge them with a directed fragment warhead to ensure the best chance of a kill.

    If missiles can be jammed and spoofed and avoided then a computer controlled drone can too.

    It is a fact Russian's downgrade export equipment as their market is trash countries in Europe like Turkey/Greece and east European or even Egypt and others that give their equipment to West.

    Amusing you say that because when India was operating Su-30MKIs, the Russians had mostly Su-27s that were vastly inferior.

    The Su-30MKK they sold to China was inferior too, and they have never leased a nuclear SSN to China or anyone else.

    India bought Russian stuff because it worked and it was much cheaper than western stuff that didn't always work.

    The problem is that the newer stuff is rather more sophisticated and all Russian which has to be paid for but they moan about the upgrade to the Su-30MKI costing 70 million a plane and spend over 200 million per Rafale that they buy.

    With the project effectively dead, the future of both India's stealth fighter plans and Russia's Su-57 are in limbo.

    That was another favourite of mine... that India was funding the SU-57 programme and when they pulled out the whole thing would collapse... except the Indians had not contributed any of the 6 billion they were going to put into development because they weren't involved in the development of the Su-57, their programme was separate and was modifications of the Su-57 export model... that money was to pay for access to the relevant technologies and to modify the design to suit their needs and wants.

    Odds are when they started adding French and Israeli components the price would have ballooned, but that wont happen now.

    By airing these frankly inane complaints they are damaging the reputation of Russia's wares and hurting further prospects for business. What kind of a partner does that?

    Indeed, India is free to buy what it likes and do as it pleases, and yes, Russia will sell things to China... the US was the only thing keeping Pakistan going for some decades but lets forget that for the moment.

    The more India moves into Americas sphere the less attention Russia will pay to her wishes and feelings regarding sales to Indias neighbours.

    A close relationship with the US will mean leases on SSNs will come in to question and cooperation and assistance will need to be re-examined too.

    India is not a child and Russia can't stop India from walking away from the park with a registered sex offender (US), they can warn but do nothing to stop them.

    Just say that the F-35 programme is estimated by some to be a 1.5 trillion dollar programme, but India wanted Su-57s for a few billion...
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    Post  gbu48098 Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:30 pm

    lyle6 wrote:
    gbu48098 wrote:

    Why is it bitching? Are they not allowed to have their security criteria? India can't just keep buying Russian or other countries forever, it is a major country with lots of human resources and they will claim their place slowly but gradually. Unlike last 60 years and almost 1000 years of on and off occupations by muzzies and british, they have a nationalist gov now that cares about their traditions, achievements and place in the world. Tejas is the first step and 2nd and 3rd steps would be faster than 1st step and they are already getting better on local designs of missiles and other systems. Russia sells to China, therefore India can't depend on the Russian equipment as the strategies based on pros and cons will to some extent common knowledge to China, therefore you see the mixing of components from local, Israel and France but thats the best they can do till they indigenize. It is a fact Russian's downgrade export equipment as their market is trash countries in Europe like Turkey/Greece and east European or even Egypt and others that give their equipment to West. I named Greece as they are a bunch similar to Australia and NZ and UK and some other spineless countries that shoot themselves, Canada and almost all of Europe minus a bit of France. No personal disrespect to members from these countries.

    If you evaluate every criticism to some conspiracy then you have plenty of time to waste. Real partnership with India is unique and valuable to Russia and viceversa.

    And what does India expect? That Russia would just part with its best technologies for what is India paying for? Bullshit. They should learn that in business you get what you pay for, and quite frankly India is up there when it comes to niggardly customers.

    Its also not a good idea to piss off your arms supplier, just as it is no good idea to piss of the people who serve your food. By airing these frankly inane complaints they are damaging the reputation of Russia's wares and hurting further prospects for business. What kind of a partner does that?

    If you go by every headline quoted by some dick and harry then sure get upset.....Indians have the deepest and trustful relationship with Russians for over 60 years and it is not changing but what is changing is India politically and is geared to shed its passive nonsense led by their leftist parties so far...for a change I am happy to see the West going through that excruciating social depression. India will need less and less of Russian or Western stuff in the next decade if their current center-right sustains. Every country should do what is right for them not what is right for your bias.....pay attention to quantifiable data not headlines. It is a good thing for Indian aviation to get out of the 5th generation thing with russia and go their own and invest in themselves which they are doing. Countries like China/India/Japan and Russia always find their place.....some are faster and others slower. Arms procurement is a corrupt business especially in dysfunctional democracies and lot of hits back and forth paid by commission agents. India is doing better than ever in my opinion and a natural Russian partner....

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    Post  gbu48098 Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:36 pm

    [quote="Backman"]

    Sure. Honest questions are fine. But it was all politics. You are free to believe that these internet shit post style complaints are legit. It is pure nonsense and the su 57 reputation suffered because of this ridiculous bullshit.

    Another article.

    India is concerned about the fighter jet’s stealth capabilities, avionics (ah avionics isn't good enough now) and the engines as the current NPO Saturn AL-41F1 engines are not adequate to power the jet, National Interest news daily reported Tuesday.

    Then the Dbags at the Drivel had to get in on it. They declared the whole Pak Fa/su 57 program "effectively dead" in 2018.


    You answered it yourself....politics. Separate headlines from quantifiable data....partnership in strategic defence sectors is deep but practically speaking Russia and China getting closer will and should be a concern for India and common sense to diversify and fast track indigenous ones. Name one neighbor of China that trusts them? Russia has no choice at the moment but if they did then they would keep reasonable distance too as a direct neighbor.....
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    Post  Backman Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:16 pm

    that India was funding the SU-57 programme and when they pulled out the whole thing would collapse... except the Indians had not contributed any of the 6 billion they were going to put into development because they weren't involved in the development of the Su-57, their programme was separate and was modifications of the Su-57 export model

    Russia cut the price almost in half to 3.7 billion and India still didn't bite. https://www.defenseworld.net/news/14967/Russia_Offers_to_Cut_Price_of_FGFA_T_50__India_Feels_It_Is_Still_Too_Expensive__Media_Claims

    They could have given it away from free and India wouldn't have taken it. There was only a certain amount of money to go around and a faction in the IAF that was dead set on the 144 French Rafales. Now that the Rafale deal has stalled at 48 aircraft or something, it will be interesting to see what India does next. They really have no other choice if they want to counter the J-20.

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    Post  gbu48098 Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:45 pm

    Backman wrote:
    Russia cut the price almost in half to 3.7 billion and India still didn't bite.

    They could have given it away from free and India wouldn't have taken it. There was only a certain amount of money to go around and a faction in the IAF that was dead set on the 144 French Rafales. Now that the Rafale deal has stalled at 48 aircraft or something, it will be interesting to see what India does next. They really have no other choice if they want to counter the J-20.

    Non-issue, they do not need it and they will buy Su-57 when it goes main stream if necessary. Rafales are good and India has good experience with Mirages and the costs are worth it for what it provides and their neighbor threat profile. French make good stuff.
    I am not buying into that mig-35 in place of Rafales under cost profile. They need both French and Russian on leading side and indigenous going forward to get their diversity against China. No need to read more into why they did not buy.....Indian armed forces are changing in more than one ways and lobbyists are being more and more checked as they sabotage indigenous efforts under current leadership. India signed for more mig-29s and Tejas with uttam AESA and BVR mixed in with Su-30's is more than enough for Pakistan in numbers and India has natural advantage in air vs China due to altitude and where bases are located....j-20 is bluster just like f-35 and India as more than enough Su-30 and Rafales for now. They will buy more RAfales and they should along with an eye on 57.

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    Post  Gomig-21 Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:Their FGFA programme had not started... it didn't cost them a cent. The UK put billions into the F-35 and is not even allowed access to the source code. If they want to use Brimstone on their own F-35s, they have to essentially hand over the Brimstone missile and its secrets to the Americans so they can integrate it.

    They actually did invest an original $300 million that they never got back but rightfully so since they were subjected to a lot of the aircraft at the time and what was going into it,  Granted that's pocket change by military standards but still a bit of a loss.

    I'm still baffled at how Sukhoi was going to install a 2 seat version in that aircraft with a Harrier-like canopy which I was also surprised to see in the first place.  Almost all the duties of the backseater have become automated and wrapped in AI there's almost no reason for it like a Su-34 bomber or any other bomber where there are many manual duties.  That's pretty much why the Su-30XXXXX got rid of the canards and especially the backs eater because of AI and all the automation.  I think they just love their Su-30MKI and want to keep things the same?

    LMFS wrote:
    US and anglos in general simply smear anything related to Russia per standard procedure, with more intensity the more this particular thing threatens them. The more they bitch and moan, the more we know they are really scared by what Russia has achieved Laughing

    You don't think the Indian announcement had a shred of accountability as to the opinions of the stealthy capabilities of the Su-57.  Imagine the thing is completely invisible in the end LOL!  That would throw a super heavy pipe wrench at everyone!
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    Post  TMA1 Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:03 pm

    gbu48098 wrote:
    lyle6 wrote:
    gbu48098 wrote:

    Why is it bitching? Are they not allowed to have their security criteria? India can't just keep buying Russian or other countries forever, it is a major country with lots of human resources and they will claim their place slowly but gradually. Unlike last 60 years and almost 1000 years of on and off occupations by muzzies and british, they have a nationalist gov now that cares about their traditions, achievements and place in the world. Tejas is the first step and 2nd and 3rd steps would be faster than 1st step and they are already getting better on local designs of missiles and other systems. Russia sells to China, therefore India can't depend on the Russian equipment as the strategies based on pros and cons will to some extent common knowledge to China, therefore you see the mixing of components from local, Israel and France but thats the best they can do till they indigenize. It is a fact Russian's downgrade export equipment as their market is trash countries in Europe like Turkey/Greece and east European or even Egypt and others that give their equipment to West. I named Greece as they are a bunch similar to Australia and NZ and UK and some other spineless countries that shoot themselves, Canada and almost all of Europe minus a bit of France. No personal disrespect to members from these countries.

    If you evaluate every criticism to some conspiracy then you have plenty of time to waste. Real partnership with India is unique and valuable to Russia and viceversa.

    And what does India expect? That Russia would just part with its best technologies for what is India paying for? Bullshit. They should learn that in business you get what you pay for, and quite frankly India is up there when it comes to niggardly customers.

    Its also not a good idea to piss off your arms supplier, just as it is no good idea to piss of the people who serve your food. By airing these frankly inane complaints they are damaging the reputation of Russia's wares and hurting further prospects for business. What kind of a partner does that?

    If you go by every headline quoted by some dick and harry then sure get upset.....Indians have the deepest and trustful relationship with Russians for over 60 years and it is not changing but what is changing is India politically and is geared to shed its passive nonsense led by their leftist parties so far...for a change I am happy to see the West going through that excruciating social depression. India will need less and less of Russian or Western stuff in the next decade if their current center-right sustains. Every country should do what is right for them not what is right for your bias.....pay attention to quantifiable data not headlines. It is a good thing for Indian aviation to get out of the 5th generation thing with russia and go their own and invest in themselves which they are doing. Countries like China/India/Japan and Russia always find their place.....some are faster and others slower. Arms procurement is a corrupt business especially in dysfunctional democracies and lot of hits back and forth paid by commission agents. India is doing better than ever in my opinion and a natural Russian partner....

    Solid post brother. I agree. I think India is being shrewd. Going with France for the Rafael which is legit an amazing aircraft and is essentially fifth gen in my opinion. They are in a pretty precarious place militarily in certain areas but I think the choices made have forced them on a path towards self development which is awesome, though risky short term. I think they should go with some mig 29m fighters and some su-57 fighters as well in the mean time but ultimately they need to make their own stuff and have pride in their own creations. Frankly I think the neoliberal left/neocon right need to be taken down a notch and other powers need to fill the vacuum. Turkey and China frankly not so much with their behaviour but India in spite of the usual corruption seen anywhere I dont get malevolent vibes from. I hope the best for them.

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    Post  Backman Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:24 pm

    Need and want are 2 different things. India's air force would be more dynamic with the su 57 than without. They should be able to fit the Rafale and su 57 in. They'd have China covered.
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    Post  gbu48098 Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:33 pm

    Backman wrote:  Need and want are 2 different things. India's air force would be more dynamic with the su 57 than without. They should be able to fit the Rafale and su 57 in. They'd have China covered.

    It is not mainstream yet even in VKS. Let them fig out the kinks on their dime and then India will sure take a look at it. Building blocks are being laid in India steadily and I expect some prolific things come out there in next decade. For now they should get more Rafales and do the Super Sukhoi upgrads for MKI. Interesting to watch would be their 2nd carrier and whether they go for migs or somethign else. Mig needs a better engine....RD-33 is not going to cut it.
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    Post  Gomig-21 Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:39 am

    gbu48098 wrote:
    Backman wrote:  Need and want are 2 different things. India's air force would be more dynamic with the su 57 than without. They should be able to fit the Rafale and su 57 in. They'd have China covered.

    It is not mainstream yet even in VKS. Let them fig out the kinks on their dime and then India will sure take a look at it. Building blocks are being laid in India steadily and I expect some prolific things come out there in next decade. For now they should get more Rafales and do the Super Sukhoi upgrads for MKI. Interesting to watch would be their 2nd carrier and whether they go for migs or something else. Mig needs a better engine....RD-33 is not going to cut it.

    First export customer for the Su-57 will be either Algeria immediately followed by Egypt or in tandem or the other way around IMO.  India couldn't make the Rafale which was the winner of the MMRCA work and who ended up being the first official export customer of the Rafale?  India has major bureaucratic issues that causes these wicked delays, while us Arabs swoop right in and can negotiate selling the moon! Very Happy
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    Post  LMFS Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:40 am

    gbu48098 wrote:Rafales are good and India has good experience with Mirages and the costs are worth it for what it provides and their neighbor threat profile. French make good stuff.

    I think we all like the Rafale, but France just rightly understood the "intelligent" Indian diversification strategy and ripped them off at an epic level. So the strategy is maybe not so intelligent. The important thing for Indians seem to be that this "diversity" allows them to buy the majority of their hardware in Russia and still insult them and demand low prices because of the claimed low quality of what they are buying. Sometimes it seems saving face and pretending to have status is more important for Indian authorities than doing the right thing and that is and will continue to bite them in the ass, very badly, not taking the opportunities Russia offers them while being constantly humiliated and taken for idiots by the West. Hardly intelligent IMHO

    I am not buying into that mig-35 in place of Rafales under cost profile.

    See above. They can buy 4x MiG-35 for each Rafale, not to account for the infamous tankers, non-existing ToT or local production and endemic lack of decency of the West. It is a pure BS strategy.

    Indian armed forces are changing in more than one ways and lobbyists are being more and more checked as they sabotage indigenous efforts under current leadership.

    The results of the brilliant and "patriotic" leadership is wasting 10 years in the FGFA, 20 on the Tejas, yet another 15 years in the MCRA, while IAF falls dramatically short of their sqd number. All in all, it is a fuckup of epic proportions. And I don't wish them (the country) any bad, but you have to call things by their name.

    Mig needs a better engine....RD-33 is not going to cut it.

    What are the competitors, M88, F414, Kaveri? None of which is any better than the RD-33MK. In particular Kaveri is a piece of junk and they are not even able to make it on their own. Enough of India playing diva with Russia and then lowering their trousers to the West, everyone knows they have no real options but to take the hand Russia is patiently offering them.

    Gomig-21 wrote:You don't think the Indian announcement had a shred of accountability as to the opinions of the stealthy capabilities of the Su-57.  Imagine the thing is completely invisible in the end LOL!  That would throw a super heavy pipe wrench at everyone!

    As far as I know there was no official that had the courage of putting his name behind that obvious defamatory stunt, if really leaked by the government it was rather a way of saving face out of a program they could neither afford nor make use of. The fact that the Su-57 has travelled already twice to Syria without any "partner" noticing it should already tell people that the plane is no piece of junk RCS-wise and in terms of the potential as a platform and the qualities of the airframe, it is essentially 5.5 - 6G. If India did really think it is ok with their embarrassing Tejas but they are too good for sharing IP and production rights for a plane of the PAK-FA bloodline, then I admit I don't understand the parameters of their logic.

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    Post  gbu48098 Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:54 am

    Gomig-21 wrote:
    gbu48098 wrote:
    Backman wrote:  Need and want are 2 different things. India's air force would be more dynamic with the su 57 than without. They should be able to fit the Rafale and su 57 in. They'd have China covered.

    It is not mainstream yet even in VKS. Let them fig out the kinks on their dime and then India will sure take a look at it. Building blocks are being laid in India steadily and I expect some prolific things come out there in next decade. For now they should get more Rafales and do the Super Sukhoi upgrads for MKI. Interesting to watch would be their 2nd carrier and whether they go for migs or something else. Mig needs a better engine....RD-33 is not going to cut it.

    First export customer for the Su-57 will be either Algeria immediately followed by Egypt or in tandem or the other way around IMO.  India couldn't make the Rafale which was the winner of the MMRCA work and who ended up being the first official export customer of the Rafale?  India has major bureaucratic issues that causes these wicked delays, while us Arabs swoop right in and can negotiate selling the moon! Very Happy

    You are correct but you get a new dictator a dozen times in 100 years too and does the bidding for other powers. My observation of India is that days of leftist minority appeasements and keeping the country occupied with social nonsense is replaced with more dynamic and honest effort to bring up ancient wisdom and modern innovation.....so they will buy at necessary speed as needed in coming years. Rafale bidding was a product of leftist govt not the current one...who do you guys fight anyway? I consider Egyptians and Iranians as good brains in the muslim world, met some pretty good professors in academic gatherings
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    Post  gbu48098 Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:13 am

    LMFS wrote:
    gbu48098 wrote:Rafales are good and India has good experience with Mirages and the costs are worth it for what it provides and their neighbor threat profile. French make good stuff.

    I think we all like the Rafale, but France just rightly understood the "intelligent" Indian diversification strategy and ripped them off at an epic level. So the strategy is maybe not so intelligent. The important thing for Indians seem to be that this "diversity" allows them to buy the majority of their hardware in Russia and still insult them and demand low prices because of the claimed low quality of what they are buying. Sometimes it seems saving face and pretending to have status is more important for Indian authorities than doing the right thing and that is and will continue to bite them in the ass, very badly, not taking the opportunities Russia offers them while being constantly humiliated and taken for idiots by the West. Hardly intelligent IMHO

    Beggars can't be choosers and french stuff comes at premium and it is not that expensive all considered...India did not pay any more than other countries.
    Like russia, France is also a strategic partner for India and helps in many other areas currently and in the past and they are reasonably sanction proof. You are not considering full spectrum in their decision. Everyone insults Russia but I don't think Indians do, you are totally mistaken. Gathering info from news media controlled by globalists is a pitfall.....no senior Indian Army or IAF or Defence minister insulted them.

    I am not buying into that mig-35 in place of Rafales under cost profile.

    See above. They can buy 4x MiG-35 for each Rafale, not to account for the infamous tankers, non-existing ToT or local production and endemic lack of decency of the West. It is a pure BS strategy.
    [/quote]

    It wont matter, 4 migs are 4 migs and Rafale is Rafale.....you don't seem to understand their security concerns. You just don't invest your entire portfolio in one stock....you may get lucky but odds are not good as the risk is not good. Why would they buy something that home country is not even serious, mig 35 is a joke from an execution point of view. You can buy 10 14 bhp bikes for the price of one car....

    Indian armed forces are changing in more than one ways and lobbyists are being more and more checked as they sabotage indigenous efforts under current leadership.

    The results of the brilliant and "patriotic" leadership is wasting 10 years in the FGFA, 20 on the Tejas, yet another 15 years in the MCRA, while IAF falls dramatically short of their sqd number. All in all, it is a fuckup of epic proportions. And I don't wish them (the country) any bad, but you have to call things by their name.

    You seem to have very less understanding of their politics.....miracles don't happen in real world that easily and certainly not instantly....Russians still can't get their ships on time with so much experience....Indians are getting there and they will get faster in the future. They spend peanuts compared to other countries....IAF is fine, number of squadrons is based on when maintenance was high and flying readiness was too low....modern fighters are better and therefore reduction in sqds is not fatal at the moment. They have a fighter that is flying and they just signed more of them.....they will improve on it. They now have a base to look forward and attract talent.

    Mig needs a better engine....RD-33 is not going to cut it.

    What are the competitors, M88, F414, Kaveri? None of which is any better than the RD-33MK. In particular Kaveri is a piece of junk and they are not even able to make it on their own. Enough of India playing diva with Russia and then lowering their trousers to the West, everyone knows they have no real options but to take the hand Russia is patiently offering them.
    Dude, they are just getting serious...give them a break. Only 3 or 4 countries are into engine building not even China with 20 times the budget of HAL  has a decent engine.....they will get the Kaveri at some point. Whatever dreamland you come from....until then they are going for GE ones....nothing wrong. Take your bias somewhere else....its their money their choice. If Russia gets offended then its their choice....

    Gomig-21 wrote:You don't think the Indian announcement had a shred of accountability as to the opinions of the stealthy capabilities of the Su-57.  Imagine the thing is completely invisible in the end LOL!  That would throw a super heavy pipe wrench at everyone!

    As far as I know there was no official that had the courage of putting his name behind that obvious defamatory stunt, if really leaked by the government it was rather a way of saving face out of a program they could neither afford nor make use of. The fact that the Su-57 has travelled already twice to Syria without any "partner" noticing it should already tell people that the plane is no piece of junk RCS-wise and in terms of the potential as a platform and the qualities of the airframe, it is essentially 5.5 - 6G. If India did really think it is ok with their embarrassing Tejas but they are too good for sharing IP and production rights for a plane of the PAK-FA bloodline, then I admit I don't understand the parameters of their logic.

    Only you embarassing with your analysis here getting upset by reading click baits. Indians know better than you their security concerns. They are entitled to their choice, you talk like NATO guys....respect other countries and their choices, you dont have to like them. Even if Su-57 is 10th gen, India still needs its Tejas to build its practice. Tejas is fine in its class just like Grippen and it will get better for sure. India does not exist to jerk Russia or US or France and viceversa. May be whereever you come from probably does.
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    Post  LMFS Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:41 am

    @gbu48098

    I am not going to go deeper in the OT, this is the Su-57 thread in the end. If it was not for the still very present colonial mindset, India would not allow the constant smear of Russia in their media and value their strategic relationship with them accordingly to its importance, that is, head, shoulders and waist above the relationship with the West. Of course this is something that does not happen in the one to one relationship between officials and military, but it is indeed a sanctioned or at least allowed punching below the belt in order to milk more concessions and better pricing from the Russians, and it causes an objective PR damage to the Russian MIC.

    BTW, the tone you are using is not going to get you many friends here. We are not suckers in need of cheap schooling
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    Post  gbu48098 Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:48 am

    LMFS wrote:@gbu48098

    I am not going to go deeper in the OT, this is the Su-57 thread in the end. If it was not for the still very present colonial mindset, India would not allow the constant smear of Russia in their media and value their strategic relationship with them accordingly to its importance, that is, head, shoulders and waist above the relationship with the West. Of course this is something that does not happen in the one to one relationship between officials and military, but it is indeed a sanctioned or at least allowed punching below the belt in order to milk more concessions and better pricing from the Russians, and it causes an objective PR damage to the Russian MIC.

    BTW, the tone you are using is not going to get you many friends here. We are not suckers in need of cheap schooling

    India has too much free press and pretty ingrained 5th column that ruled over it post independence, so press is as corrupt as it can be and serves globalists not traditionalists and native patriots. This is now prevalent in Western world too....Russian gov does not give a crap about what Indian press says or some random guy says retired or active. They care about ones that have the walet and they don't talk out in open. Russia will lose some market space in India but it is legit for Indians to diversify.

    What tone...tired of people getting too sensetive on a military forum? You are the one insulting a billion plus country without understanding their politics or concerns. No country exists or should exist to serve other countries interests. They are entitled to make mistakes and their decisions as consequences are theirs ultimately.
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    Post  lyle6 Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:49 am

    gbu48098 wrote:
    If you go by every headline quoted by some dick and harry then sure get upset.....Indians have the deepest and trustful relationship with Russians for over 60 years and it is not changing but what is changing is India politically and is geared to shed its passive nonsense led by their leftist parties so far...for a change I am happy to see the West going through that excruciating social depression. India will need less and less of Russian or Western stuff in the next decade if their current center-right sustains. Every country should do what is right for them not what is right for your bias.....pay attention to quantifiable data not headlines. It is a good thing for Indian aviation to get out of the 5th generation thing with russia and go their own and invest in themselves which they are doing. Countries like China/India/Japan and Russia always find their place.....some are faster and others slower. Arms procurement is a corrupt business especially in dysfunctional democracies and lot of hits back and forth paid by commission agents. India is doing better than ever in my opinion and a natural Russian partner....

    Except there is no evidence of this sea change in India's sourcing of its military technology either. All their new stuff are either adaptations of foreign technologies or incorporates significant fractions of foreign components for crucial tasks. More importantly, while they are dicking around with re-inventing late cold war technology everybody else is busy fielding their new millennium equivalents - effectively leaving India in the dust yet again.

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    Post  gbu48098 Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:57 am

    lyle6 wrote:

    Except there is no evidence of this sea change in India's sourcing of its military technology either. All their new stuff are either adaptations of foreign technologies or incorporates significant fractions of foreign components for crucial tasks. More importantly, while they are dicking around with re-inventing late cold war technology everybody else is busy fielding their new millennium equivalents - effectively leaving India in the dust yet again.

    So is lot of equipment that Russia uses from CNC machines to metal cutters and they even use windows operating system. It is not all or nothing and learning from others inventions and discoveries is not a bad thing. For a country dominated by foreigners for near 700 years, it is coming back. You will be surprized how much of the componentry is being localized from avionics to metal to radars. They are fine and handling both China and Pakistan well enough....one is a terror land and other is authoritative and can't ever get along with its neighbors.
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    Post  lyle6 Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:15 am

    gbu48098 wrote:
    So is lot of equipment that Russia uses from CNC machines to metal cutters and they even use windows operating system. It is not all or nothing and learning from others inventions and discoveries is not a bad thing. For a country dominated by foreigners for near 700 years, it is coming back. You will be surprized how much of the componentry is being localized from avionics to metal to radars. They are fine and handling both China and Pakistan well enough....one is a terror land and other is authoritative and can't ever get along with its neighbors.

    The thing is, they have their own equivalents for those too. For now, foreign technologies are still in use but that is mainly out of inertia i.e. businesses riding out the lifespans of whatever product or services they have bought into. Eventually they will switch out, but it will be done in a manner that is economically sound for all parties involved, not because the government would subsidize the enterprise. At no point will they have no viable alternative which means locking them out from doing further business is almost impossible.

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    Post  gbu48098 Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:21 am

    lyle6 wrote:
    gbu48098 wrote:
    So is lot of equipment that Russia uses from CNC machines to metal cutters and they even use windows operating system. It is not all or nothing and learning from others inventions and discoveries is not a bad thing. For a country dominated by foreigners for near 700 years, it is coming back. You will be surprized how much of the componentry is being localized from avionics to metal to radars. They are fine and handling both China and Pakistan well enough....one is a terror land and other is authoritative and can't ever get along with its neighbors.

    The thing is, they have their own equivalents for those too. For now, foreign technologies are still in use but that is mainly out of inertia i.e. businesses riding out the lifespans of whatever product or services they have bought into. Eventually they will switch out, but it will be done in a manner that is economically sound for all parties involved, not because the government would subsidize the enterprise. At no point will they have no viable alternative which means locking them out from doing further business is almost impossible.

    So will India, US and Western sanctions post nuclear tests did force them to do research and find answers on their own and it is paying off at the moment in some areas. Most blame will rest with leftist government as they held back country for 60 years with their appeasement policies instead of focusing on real development and desire to find place on world stage. It is truly different now but will take some time.

    Note: OT as this is beyond su-57 now.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:08 am

    They actually did invest an original $300 million that they never got back but rightfully so since they were subjected to a lot of the aircraft at the time and what was going into it, Granted that's pocket change by military standards but still a bit of a loss.

    300 million is peanuts.

    I'm still baffled at how Sukhoi was going to install a 2 seat version in that aircraft with a Harrier-like canopy which I was also surprised to see in the first place.

    It is going to cost more than 300 million dollars... the front of the aircraft will need to be reshaped... much like the current model MiG-29/35s.

    I think India is being shrewd.

    They are avoiding spending money.

    They want to be independent and make stuff themselves but they wont pay for the technology they need to do that, so their indigenous tank has German armour and a German engine and looks just like a German tank. Not much indigenous about it at all really.

    Going with France for the Rafael which is legit an amazing aircraft and is essentially fifth gen in my opinion.

    In terms of price it certainly is...

    I think they should go with some mig 29m fighters and some su-57 fighters as well in the mean time but ultimately they need to make their own stuff and have pride in their own creations.

    They might get a shock if they think they can just wait for the export Su-57s and buy off the shelf but also demand two seats and better stealth for free.

    They will probably demand French and Israeli systems be added too and end up paying rather more than anyone else for their aircraft... which they will no doubt complain about.

    They should be able to fit the Rafale and su 57 in.

    At 8 billion dollars for 36 Rafales... they are going to need to spend a lot more on their Air Force if they want a viable fleet in terms of numbers.

    It is not mainstream yet even in VKS. Let them fig out the kinks on their dime and then India will sure take a look at it. Building blocks are being laid in India steadily and I expect some prolific things come out there in next decade.

    Yeah, in a decade they will have their own 5th gen heavy fighter... maybe Russia might buy it.

    For now they should get more Rafales and do the Super Sukhoi upgrads for MKI.

    How many Rafales can they afford?

    Interesting to watch would be their 2nd carrier and whether they go for migs or somethign else. Mig needs a better engine....RD-33 is not going to cut it.

    Publicly they say the MiGs are not good enough and then they buy more of the older generation... because they are cheap.

    Beggars can't be choosers and french stuff comes at premium and it is not that expensive all considered...India did not pay any more than other countries.

    They paid 8.4 billion for thirty six aircraft.... just under 240 million dollars per aircraft... and it is not even 5th gen... the F-35 is cheaper... saying you could get two F-35s for the price says enough does it not?

    Though I will concede that the Rafale does work but then the Su-35 is combat tested too...

    It wont matter, 4 migs are 4 migs and Rafale is Rafale.....you don't seem to understand their security concerns.

    They introduced the programme to boost fighter numbers as MiG-27s and MiG-21s are being withdrawn from service... the Rafale is a stupid purchase in that regard because it is in the price range of a heavy fighter like an Su-30MKI... which makes it a terrible choice for a numbers aircraft.

    The MiG-29M would be the ideal replacement for the MiG-21 and MiG-27 and also the Jaguar and the existing MiG-29s of the old design upgraded.

    They wanted Rafales to replace their Mirage 2000s... they actually wanted to produce Mirage 2000s but France said no they had to buy Rafales at a ridiculous price so India held a competition for a 10 billion dollar contract for 126 fighters... they decided the Rafale won, but there was no way they would get 126 Rafales for 10 billion.... not even 20 billion.

    You just don't invest your entire portfolio in one stock....

    They were only buying 126 planes as a stopgap, but it has taken so long they are going to need to buy a lot more and they simply can't afford to buy as many Rafales as they would need to fill the gap... personally I think Russia should raise their prices.

    Why would they buy something that home country is not even serious, mig 35 is a joke from an execution point of view.

    They should buy some F-16s and F-18s perhaps...

    You can buy 10 14 bhp bikes for the price of one car....

    We are talking about India and the Rafale and the MiG-35, so really it is the choice of an over priced ferrari and a Lada Niva... the Russian product is cheap and gets the job done, while the Italian car looks nice but will sting you to buy and every service you have to pay for... I would think the Russians would let them build MiGs in India.... why bother with the Rafale... when you make aircraft yourself you make them much more expensive and how could India justify a much more expensive Rafale?

    You seem to have very less understanding of their politics.....miracles don't happen in real world that easily and certainly not instantly....Russians still can't get their ships on time with so much experience....Indians are getting there and they will get faster in the future. They spend peanuts compared to other countries....IAF is fine, number of squadrons is based on when maintenance was high and flying readiness was too low....modern fighters are better and therefore reduction in sqds is not fatal at the moment. They have a fighter that is flying and they just signed more of them.....they will improve on it. They now have a base to look forward and attract talent.

    It seems you are expecting miracles, how is the aircraft carrier India was making going?

    I have every confidence India could develop into a superpower, but their leaning towards the US and confrontation with China will do the opposite... of course it just takes one election to change everything too.

    It is hilarious that you think Indias future is a future not dependent on other countries for their defence needs but your solution is to shun Russia, a country that offers joint development and Indian production of their weapons and equipment in favour of France and presumably the US who will happily push them into a confrontation with China... that will help India grow and develop for sure....

    They are entitled to their choice, you talk like NATO guys....respect other countries and their choices, you dont have to like them.

    Of course they are entitled to their own choice, but they have to be aware that their choices also have consequences... if they don't want this or that plane or wants to wait until it is off the shelf and they don't have to invest anything into its development then they have to be aware if they eventually do buy it and want changes they will pay for them all themselves which will make them expensive.

    Belligerent actions from the west towards Russia is pushing Russia closer to China, so if India wants a fight with China then relations with Russia are going to change too... just like Russian relations with the EU will change as they tow the US anti Russia line politically.

    Even if Su-57 is 10th gen, India still needs its Tejas to build its practice. Tejas is fine in its class just like Grippen and it will get better for sure. India does not exist to jerk Russia or US or France and viceversa.

    India is playing countries off against each other to get a better deal... the whole MRCA deal was all about getting France to drop its price and it backfired.... it wasted ten years and the price they paid was no better than earlier offers which were considered too much at the time.

    So is lot of equipment that Russia uses from CNC machines to metal cutters and they even use windows operating system.

    Russia now exports CNC machines, and in terms of operating systems and computers they are leading the world in dropping Microsoft.

    The thing is, they have their own equivalents for those too. For now, foreign technologies are still in use but that is mainly out of inertia i.e. businesses riding out the lifespans of whatever product or services they have bought into.

    Actually sanctions have forced them to give up the easy option of buying western gear off the shelf and to start developing their own equivalents.

    Note: OT as this is beyond su-57 now.

    Will be moved to talking bollocks thread shortly.

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    Post  kvs Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:57 pm

    So the Su-57 is "underpowered" but the F-35 can't even fly over Mach 1 without major damage. Yeah, BS much.

    Su-57:

    Empty weight: 18,000 kg (39,683 lb)
    Gross weight: 25,000 kg (55,116 lb) typical mission weight, 29,270 kg (64,530 lb) at full load
    Max takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,162 lb)
    Fuel capacity: 10,300 kg (22,700 lb) internally

    Maximum speed: Mach 2 (2,440 km/h; 1,320 mph) at altitude
    Mach 1.6 (1,710 km/h; 1,060 mph) supercruise at altitude
    Range: 3,500 km (2,200 mi, 1,900 nmi) subsonic, 4,500 km from 2 outboard fuel tanks[268]
    Supersonic range: 1,500 km (930 mi, 810 nmi)
    Service ceiling: 20,000 m (66,000 ft)
    g limits: +9.0
    Wing loading: 371 kg/m2 (76 lb/sq ft) typical mission weight
    Thrust/weight:
    AL-41F1: 1.02 (1.19 at typical mission weight)
    izdeliye 30: 1.15–1.2 (1.36 at typical mission weight)


    F-35:

    Empty weight: 29,300 lb (13,290 kg)
    Gross weight: 49,540 lb (22,471 kg)
    Max takeoff weight: 70,000 lb (31,751 kg)
    Fuel capacity: 18,250 lb (8,278 kg) internal

    Maximum speed: Mach 1.6 at altitude
    Range: 1,500 nmi (1,700 mi, 2,800 km)
    Combat range: 669 nmi (770 mi, 1,239 km) on internal fuel
    760 nmi (870 mi; 1,410 km) interdiction mission on internal fuel, for internal air to air configuration[390]
    Service ceiling: 50,000 ft (15,000 m)
    g limits: +9.0
    Wing loading: 107.7 lb/sq ft (526 kg/m2) at gross weight
    Thrust/weight: 0.87 at gross weight (1.07 at loaded weight with 50% internal fuel)

    JAS 39C/D Gripen:

    Empty weight: 6,800 kg (14,991 lb)
    Max takeoff weight: 14,000 kg (30,865 lb)
    Internal fuel capacity: 3,000 L (790 US gal)

    Maximum speed: 2,460 km/h (1,530 mph, 1,330 kn) +
    Maximum speed: Mach 2
    Combat range: 800 km (500 mi, 430 nmi)
    Ferry range: 3,200 km (2,000 mi, 1,700 nmi)
    Service ceiling: 15,240 m (50,000 ft)
    g limits: +9 −3
    Wing loading: 283 kg/m2 (58 lb/sq ft)
    Thrust/weight: 0.97
    Takeoff distance: 400 m (1,312 ft)
    Landing distance: 500 m (1,640 ft)

    The Su-57 is superior to both the Gripen and the F-35. And that is according to pro-NATO WikiCrapia.

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    Post  gbu48098 Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:38 pm

    [quote="GarryB"]
    I think India is being shrewd.

    They are avoiding spending money.

    They want to be independent and make stuff themselves but they wont pay for the technology they need to do that, so their indigenous tank has German  armour and a German engine and looks just like a German tank. Not much indigenous about it at all really.
    Everyone pays based on how desperate they want something.....it is childish to expect otherwise. Relationships are not binary and they are generally value based especially under Modi's govt. They are not going to let lobbyists sabotage the indigenous efforts to build practices. There could be million things to get out for India, they may not be ready or they are heading in a different direction or they just want to focus on local ones. Be a bit more objective and try to understand perspectives.

    Going with France for the Rafael which is legit an amazing aircraft and is essentially fifth gen in my opinion.

    French for sure has premium just like their civilian products but they make good stuff whether its cheese, wine or perfumes or fashion or defence and only other relatively sanction proof ones for India apart form Russia. May be you need to expand your circle's radius a bit.



    They might get a shock if they think they can just wait for the export Su-57s and buy off the shelf but also demand two seats and better stealth for free.

    They will probably demand French and Israeli systems be added too and end up paying rather more than anyone else for their aircraft... which they will no doubt complain about.
    Their country their choices, if Russia has a good offering and India is in need they will buy. No need to think more, China did the same around the time they started building up local...this is Nato level thinking and the gas station remark that you so keep in heart judging other countries on their potential or lack of it.


    Yeah, in a decade they will have their own 5th gen heavy fighter... maybe Russia might buy it.
    Your attitude is similar to someone from West. Condescending to other countries based on your bias. Russia not a gas station but ok to judge others.


    How many Rafales can they afford?
    Let them worry about their finances and security concerns.

    Interesting to watch would be their 2nd carrier and whether they go for migs or somethign else. Mig needs a better engine....RD-33 is not going to cut it.
    Name a guy that has authority that said that from Defence Ministry.....They will get Tejas navalized. Until then its mostly mig-29s, they really don't have choice as the carrier itself is based on Russian blue print just like Chinese.


    They paid 8.4 billion for thirty six aircraft....   just under 240 million dollars per aircraft... and it is not even 5th gen... the F-35 is cheaper... saying you could get two F-35s for the price says enough does it not?

    Though I will concede that the Rafale does work but then the Su-35 is combat tested too...
    No your numbers are wrong, price is close to $100 - $110 million.....read the details not the click baits. American ones are a risk no matter how good they are for India. They will stick to transport and other ones to keep the Americans satisfied and US makes good stuff. F-35 is not offered to India and neither did India say they are interested in it.



    They introduced the programme to boost fighter numbers as MiG-27s and MiG-21s are being withdrawn from service... the Rafale is a stupid purchase in that regard because it is in the price range of a heavy fighter like an Su-30MKI... which makes it a terrible choice for a numbers aircraft.

    GEt this in your thought process, India is set on diverifying to reduce risks of Rusian equipment commanlity with China. If you can't understand a bit about their concern then not sure I can say you have objectivity in your thinking, its a mere bias like an implicit westerner. Their squadrons are fine for now and they are getting Tejas in next 3 to 5 years to replace point interceptors on their western front.


    They were only buying 126 planes as a stopgap, but it has taken so long they are going to need to buy a lot more and they simply can't afford to buy as many Rafales as they would need to fill the gap... personally I think Russia should raise their prices.
    Russia should do what is good for them and India will do what it needs to do.....thats what soverign countries do unlike puppets. You fail to understand the 60 years of leftist rule over India and how they ruined the spirit and productivity of the people apart from centuries outside cultures ruining. No need to get emotional or pick sides in everything.

    Why would they buy something that home country is not even serious, mig 35 is a joke from an execution point of view.

    Perhaps but they are not due to childish tantrums from US in their front line air force fleet. Does it answer your disappointment?


    We are talking about India and the Rafale and the MiG-35, so really it is the choice of an over priced ferrari and a Lada Niva... the Russian product is cheap and gets the job done, while the Italian car looks nice but will sting you to buy and every service you have to pay for... I would think the Russians would let them build MiGs in India.... why bother with the Rafale... when you make aircraft yourself you make them much more expensive and how could India justify a much more expensive Rafale?
    Thats your view, their view is to get off of foreign equipment and they are realistic that they are not there and wont be in atleast 2 or 3 decades but they are laying out the pieces and just like space needs they will get self sufficient. Why are you doubting? They can't keep holding Chinese back depending on foreign stuff forever as China becomes next super power and foreign stuff is ever more expensive.


    It seems you are expecting miracles, how is the aircraft carrier India was making going?

    I have every confidence India could develop into a superpower, but their leaning towards the US and confrontation with China will do the opposite... of course it just takes one election to change everything too.

    It is hilarious that you think Indias future is a future not dependent on other countries for their defence needs but your solution is to shun Russia, a country that offers joint development and Indian production of their weapons and equipment in favour of France and presumably the US who will happily push them into a confrontation with China... that will help India grow and develop for sure....
    They are not the type to get into gangs.....India has lot of exports to US and if US has good products that India needs then they buy it.....you seem to have group mindset. Indias partnership with Russia is deep and strategic but that does not mean they are under someones thumb to not pick their own path or make their own decisions. Russia licks Western countries boots inspite of all the insults....if you look at it that way but to Russians its just navigating the real world based on possibilities and risks.


    Of course they are entitled to their own choice, but they have to be aware that their choices also have consequences... if they don't want this or that plane or wants to wait until it is off the shelf and they don't have to invest anything into its development then they have to be aware if they eventually do buy it and want changes they will pay for them all themselves which will make them expensive.
    Belligerent actions from the west towards Russia is pushing Russia closer to China, so if India wants a fight with China then relations with Russia are going to change too... just like Russian relations with the EU will change as they tow the US anti Russia line politically.
    They are aware, I am sure. If mistakes are made then consequences are inevitable.....same for any country. No one is belligenrent, you are imagining. India going local or diversifying is nothing belligerent....they have their own concerns that are independent of Russia for instance Chinese bases in Pakistan and Myanmar and so on....they will try to counteract using various means including tactical alliances. If Russia can get along with Turkey inspite sponsoring chechen terrorism and shooting down their planes then India is also doing what fits in its world. Russia has lot of enemies but India is not one of them. You are off....you just cant seem to accept soverign decisions of India.


    India is playing countries off against each other to get a better deal... the whole MRCA deal was all about getting France to drop its price and it backfired.... it wasted ten years and the price they paid was no better than earlier offers which were considered too much at the time.
    What? Is Russia that stupid to get played? India has shitty politics and wasted decades forget 10 years....leftist govts in dysfunctional democracies do that....look at whats happening in western countries now. They are lucky that tide is shifting towards nationalistic side.


    Russia now exports CNC machines, and in terms of operating systems and computers they are leading the world in dropping Microsoft.
    Sure, not from the videos I have seen, lot of German and Japanese machinery and Windows embedded and XP from that Zvezda channel....there is nothing wrong in using good stuff made by others....risks will always be there but economics also needs to be considered. India has localized lot of componentry too....good for them.

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