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78 posters

    Tu-22M3: News

    Isos
    Isos


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    Tu-22M3: News - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Isos Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:19 pm

    I'm pretty sure it was me. Irbis has already 400km range, with a wider antenna and more power it can boost that range by 25% pretty easily.

    Such aircraft can only be a missile truck. As long as there are ebemy AD systems and fighters with long range missiles it won't do carpet bombing.
    Podlodka77
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    Tu-22M3: News - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:36 pm

    From april 2012

    All this is fueling speculation that KLJ-7's true specs is lower than publicized by the closed-to-scrutiny Chinese Defence Establishments. This speculation turned out to be true when Janes Defence Weekly published that the Radar Range of KLJ-7 is actually 75km for a 3m2 Target.[Reference/Source 8]
    KLJ-7 has a 75km detection range for 3m2 Target. Hence:
    For 20m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 121km
    For 15m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 112km
    For 12.5m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 107km
    For 10m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 101km
    For 8.5m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 97km
    For 5m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 85km
    For 1m2, KLJ-7 detection range is 57km

    APG-68(V)9 has a 105km detection range for 5m2 Target. Hence:
    For 20m2, APG-68(V)9 detection range is 149km
    For 15m2, APG-68(V)9 detection range is 138km
    For 12.5m2, APG-68(V)9 detection range is 132km
    For 10m2, APG-68(V)9 detection range is 125km
    For 8.5m2, APG-68(V)9 detection range is 120km
    For 3m2, APG-68(V)9 detection range is 92km
    For 1m2, APG-68(V)9 detection range is 70km



    RCS figures are confidential. However unofficially there are some figures available on the internet. They are:
    Clean(meaning payload/ammunition not loaded) F-16 after Block 30, which includes block 52 - 1.2m2
    Clean Mig-29B & Mig-29SMT - 5m2
    Clean Su-30MKI - 10m2 to 15m2

    JF-17 without RAM, its RCS would be more than a Clean F-16 block 52 which has RAM & is planform. F-16 block25 & the previous variants, which are planform in construction but without RAM, were said to have an RCS of 3m2-5m2, when clean. JF-17's TWR isn't very high, and adding RAM would mean increasing the weight. So we can expect little or no RAM on JF-17. Also, JF-17 isn't very planform in construction but has DSI and is a smaller aircraft. So lets consider a favorable assumption that the RCS of a clean JF-17 is as low as 2.5m2.[Reference 1]

    Su-30MKI's RCS when carrying full 8000kgs AG load is said to be 20m2.[Reference 2]

    Lets take Su-30MKI's clean RCS as 11.5m2, higher than a standard Su-27, due to canards & the extra seat.

    Mig-29K's RCS is officially confirmed to be 4-5 times less than a old Mig-29, due to composites & RAM. So taking an average value between 4 & 5 = 4.5. When the unofficial RCS of 5 is divided by 4.5 we get an RCS of 1.11. "Considerable increase of flight range is also gained due to increased capacity of drop fuel tanks and in-flight refueling capability (with the possibility to refuel from the aircraft of the same type). Due to special coatings Mig-29K radar reflecting surface is 4-5 times smaller than of basic MiG-29."[Reference 3]

    It's well known that RCS increases with external payload.
    JF-17 cannot carry larger payloads. Its load carrying capacity is only 7900lbs or less than 3600kgs. This compared to Su-30MKIs 8000kgs, Mig-29K's 5500kgs, & F-16's 7500kgs. So only a nominal increase of 2.5m2 RCS is taken into consideration for the JF-17. Eventhough Mig-29K carries less payload than a F-16 or Su-30, a RCS increase more than F-16's is considered for calculations, in order to get a uniform RCS. This is done purely for the ease of comparison, but as a result of this the MiG-29K's RCS figure is much more than what it would be been. In the end:

    Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded Mig-29SMT as 8.5m2, 3.5m2 more.
    Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded Mig-29K as 5m2, 3.9m2 more.
    Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded F-16 Block 52 as 5m2, 3.8m2 more.
    Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded JF-17 as 5m2, 2.5m2 more.
    Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded Su-30MKI as 15m2, 3.5m2 more.

    With these RCS values and the above radar ranges, you can now see which fighters will be detecting their opponent fighters first... and first tracking which almost linearly follows detection.

    Mig-29K will detect:
    Su-30MKI at 158km
    Mig-29SMT at 137km
    F-16 Block 52 at 120km
    JF-17 at 120km

    F-16 Block 52 will detect:
    Su-30MKI at 138km
    Mig-29SMT at 120km
    JF-17 at 105km
    Mig-29K at 105km

    Su-30MKI will detect:
    Mig-29SMT at 160km
    F-16 Block 52 at 140km
    JF-17 at 140km
    Mig-29K at 140km

    Mig-29SMT will detect:
    Su-30MKI at 158km
    F-16 Block 52 at 120km
    JF-17 at 120km
    Mig-29K at 120km

    JF-17 will detect:
    Su-30MKI at 112km
    Mig-29SMT at 97km
    F-16 Block52 at 85km
    Mig-29K at 85km

    Mig-29K comes out as the clear winner. If provided with a long range BVR weapon which could match its powerful radar, Mig-29K navalised version will come out as the BVR winner.
    Su-30MKI follows the Mig-29K Naval Fulcrum.
    Mig-29SMT & F-16 Block-52 are tied at third, followed by the JF-17.

    Radars & their Ranges on their respective Fighters
    Zhuk-ME (on Mig-29 Upgrade & Mig-29K)
    Can Track- 10 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 120 km
    Max Track for 5 sqm RCS - 100.8 km (Tracking range is 0.83 - 0.85 of the detection range)
    Reference 4

    N-011M BARS (on Su-30MKI)
    Can Track- 15 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 140 km
    Reference 4
    Reference 5
    Reference 25
    Reference 25 - Translation 1
    Reference 25 - Translation 2

    Kopyo-21I
    Can Track- 8 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 57 km
    Reference 4

    Kopyo-M
    Can Track- 10 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km
    Reference 4
    (Mig-21 Bison has Kopyo radar. Some Bisons are equipped with Kopyo-21I and some with Kopyo-M.)

    Grifo-S(Range of the largest antenna version)
    Can Track- 10 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 93 km
    Reference 6

    KLJ-7 (on JF-17)
    Can Track- 10 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
    Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 75 km
    Reference 8
    Reference 9

    BARS-29 (Similar to MKI radar, but is newer, & its antenna adapted to Mig-29's smaller nose)
    Can Track- 15 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 120 km
    Reference 10
    Reference 11

    Irbis-E (on Su-35S)
    Can Track - 30 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets
    Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 375 km(mean of 350 and 400km)
    Reference 13
    Reference 13 - Translation 1
    Reference 13 - Translation 2
    Max Detection for 0.01 sqm RCS - 90 km
    Reference 18
    (Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 426 km)
    (Max Detection for 1 sqm RCS - 285 km)

    APG-77 (on F-22A)
    Max Track for 1 sqm RCS - 200 km
    Reference 12
    Reference 14

    APG-81 (on F-35)
    Max Track for 1 sqm RCS - 160 km
    Reference 12
    Reference 14

    Captor-M (on EF-2000)
    Max Track for 5 sqm RCS - 185 km
    Reference 14
    Reference 12

    Zaslon-M (on Mig-31)
    Max Detection for 19 / 20 sqm RCS - 400 km
    Reference 12
    Reference 23
    Reference 24
    (Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 282.8 km)

    RBE-2 (on Rafale)
    Can Track - 40/8 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
    Max Track for 30 sqft(2.8sqm) RCS - 60nm(111.12 km)
    Max Detection for 30 sqft (2.8sqm) RCS - 75nm(138.9 km)
    Reference 22
    Reference 15
    (Max detection for 5m2 RCS - 160.6km)
    (Max track for 5m2 RCS - 128.5km)

    RDY-2 (on mirage 2000-5/-9)
    Can Track - 8 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 105 km
    Max Track for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km
    Reference 14

    RC-400 (Smaller radar based on RDY-2. Range of the largest antenna)
    Can Track - 8 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 84 km

    APG-68 (V)9 (on F-16 Block 52)
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 105 km
    Reference 16
    Max Track for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km
    Reference 14

    APG-66(V)2 (on F-16 MLU)
    Max Detection for 6 sqm RCS - 74 km
    Max Detection for 0.8 sqm RCS - 50 km
    Reference 19
    Reference 20
    Reference 21
    (Assuming 6sqm for F-4 to be accurate and invoking the radar-range-RCS equation for 0.8sqm of T-37, the result is 45km, which almost tallies with the given range of 50km, thus proving the validity of the RCS and hence the ranges.)

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    sepheronx
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    Tu-22M3: News - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-22M3: News

    Post  sepheronx Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:44 pm

    @ Isos

    It may have been you indeed. But I seem to recall you were quoting an article about possible upgrades for the Tu-22M prior to M3M upgrade came to be.

    And it boils down to the fact that it could also act as somewhat of an AWAC's too. A command and control aircraft as well as missile truck. The main disadvantage over a typical awacs is that it wouldn't have full 360 degree viewing angle.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:38 pm

    IIRC I was talking about either detecting ships at 600km or using it for some two stage r-37 missiles to hunt AWACS or something like that. It supersonic speed allows launches at max range of any missile.

    600km detection range against ships with some mini kinzhal and actual kinzhal would be deadly against any navy. US carrier have f-18 and f-35 that would struggle patroling that far on all the side attract them with a tu-22 600km from the east and launch an attack from 600km from the west. They wouldn't be avle to intercept the attack.

    I don't think I said to used it as an awacs. Not really suitable without 360° radar.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:08 pm

    It's been a long time so my memory fails me a bit
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:49 am

    I don't remember and can't be bothered looking back but I would think I would be thinking of an escort jammer with air to air and air to ground capacity to support M3M bombers operating with it... the room in the nose is enormous and would allow radar antennas several times bigger than radars fitted to their other aircraft to be used... this aircraft has the capacity to carry 24 tons of ordinance, and the potential is enormous... new replacement missiles for the Kh-31 family that use scramjet propulsion instead of ramjet propulsion that increases speed 3-4 times and probably quadruples current range against ground and air targets is just one example of what should be achievable... without spending a lot of money.

    Of course the MiG-41 is on the way so it does not need to fly much faster than it does because that can do the intercept stuff while the Backfire could form a patrol element... the engine upgrades to improve the power of the NK-31 and NK-25 could lead to serious performance increases in dry thrust alone so super cruising could become a possibility too.
    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:03 am

    December 25, 22:26
    New equipment of the RF Armed Forces

    Updated missile carriers Tu-95MSM and Tu-22M3M will enter the Russian Aerospace Forces in 2023
    The commander of long-range aviation, Lieutenant General Sergei Kobylash, specified that after modernization, they acquire improved characteristics and capabilities for their operation.

    MOSCOW, 26 December. /TASS/. Long-range aviation of the Aerospace Forces (VKS) of the Russian Federation in 2023 will receive the first modernized Tu-95MSM strategic missile carriers and Tu-22M3M missile carrier-bombers. This was announced by the commander of long-range aviation, Lieutenant General Sergei Kobylash.

    "In order to increase the combat capabilities of long-range aviation, a deep modernization of the main types of our combat aircraft to the level of Tu-160M, Tu-95MSM and Tu-22M3M continues, and the production of the Tu-160 aviation complex in the Tu-160M ​​variant has been resumed. Next year, the first such aircraft will go to combat units," he said in an interview with the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper, published on Monday.

    Earlier, on December 21, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu at the final board of the military department with the participation of Russian President Vladimir Putin of Russia announced the need to accept three Tu-160M ​​missile carriers into the aviation strategic nuclear forces next year.

    In turn, the head of the United Aircraft Corporation announced on December 23 that the first Tu-160M ​​strategic missile carrier built from scratch would be commissioned this year. According to him, it will be a deeply modernized aircraft based on the Tu-160 with new capabilities and new functionality.

    According to the commander of long-range aviation, after modernization, the aircraft acquire improved characteristics and capabilities for their operation, as well as for more accurate use of aviation weapons.

    Kobylash noted that in the interests of the association, the development of a promising long-range aviation complex capable of solving a wide range of tasks of both nuclear and non-nuclear deterrence is being simultaneously carried out. All aviation weapons are also being developed and supplied, including new cruise hypersonic missiles.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/16686003

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:37 pm

    At the end of December, PJSC "Tupolev", as part of the state defense order, handed over another Tu-22M3 missile carrier-bomber to the Long-range aviation of the Russian Aerospace Forces.

    On the aircraft, the necessary complexes of improvements to improve the characteristics were carried out. After the familiarization flight, the aircraft was handed over to the operating organization.

    @uac_ru

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    Post  mnztr Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:50 pm

    How many M3Ms have been delivered?
    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:22 pm

    Afaik, none. They should to be delivered at the start of 2023.

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