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    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue May 31, 2022 12:25 am

    Hole wrote:The most important drones are Orlan-10, because it is a real force multiplier for artillery, tanks and infantry, and Okhotnik, which uses the same tech as
    the Su-57, with sophisticated ELINT and ECM systems and all kinds of weapons, including long-range ARM´s against air defence. All other drones are just
    filling small niches. The only other drone really needed is a heavy helicopter drone to relieve Ka-52 or Mi-28 or the Su-25 from the duty of flying for half an
    hour just to release some unguided rockets against a target.

    Most of the iranian drones shown in the last video of that underground facility were just an a pair with the La-17 produced in the 60´s. Their other drones
    will survive as long as the turkish Bakshish against an enemy with decent air defence. Iran is only using these drones because it can´t build sophisticated
    combat aircraft. They needed 40 years to copy the T-5 trainer.

    They have quite capable loitoring munitions, some of which have ranges that transforms them into cruise missiles.

    US army can't sustain huge losses in case of an invasion. So if half of all their long range ballistic missiles hit their targets and if they manage to field 10 000 lancet like suicide drones with 1000 operators to hunt US vehicles then they will be safe.

    Add to this they have plenty of anti ship missiles and mines to close the strait and lot of small range ballistic missiles in Iraq to harass US forces in the area.

    Their drones may also harass US forces but they aren't game changer specially when your adversary has a far better air force.

    However they lack a decent air force and their AD forces are probably too small since they have bought really low amounts of russian systems and their own production may not be as advanced as the one for ballistic missiles or drones.

    IMO they have enough to face a US invasion but not enough to stop an air raid against their nuclear centers.
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    Post  GarryB Tue May 31, 2022 12:53 am

    The Orlan-10 is a tactical recon drone with some ad-hoc grenade chugging ability added.

    I would not call that ad hoc... there are off the shelf drones with release mechanisms that let standard hand grenades go inside glass cups with the pins already pulled so when it hits the ground the cup shatters and the grenades arm is released (no pin holding it) and it explodes seconds later... that is Ad hoc.

    This is a faired bomb holder with two small bombs that look like enlarge 40mm grenades but don't have their primers and propellent sections and have tail fins added... these are custom modified bombs that might be 1 or 2kgs which means four or more times more explosive and fragments than your average hand grenade.

    We have already seen custom designed bombs and guided missiles designed specifically for drones and presumably light aircraft like that armed Ansat helo for example... the Russians are taking weapons for drones even more seriously than the west.

    The video footage of the attack on the M777 battery would suggest a simple arrangement with continuously computed impact point (CCIP) avionics... it looks more like a bigger bomb than a normal hand grenade and a guess based on altitude and flight speed... which in this case is good enough.

    A much larger (unmanned) aircraft could have an internal bomb bay with hundreds of these bombs it could fly down trench lines or along a convoy of trucks dropping a string of bombs to kill and damage over a wide area... a cruise missile could carry them ejecting them upwards in flight as it flies down a trench line or a runway or street with a convoy of troops or trucks...

    I agree with MiG-31... I think it makes sense for Russia and Iran to work together... they face similar enemies and each can provide information and experience and technology that will make both sides more effective and safer which is good for both parties.

    Part of the problem is that Iran saw the Soviet Union as being just as bad as the big evil west and have no more reason to trust them than Russia has to trust Iran.

    The idea of the enemy of my enemy is my friend is just stupid and can lead to cooperation with Nazis and muslim extremist nutters and just general scum, but Iran and Russia have some history of conflict but nothing really evil and bad... it makes sense for them to work together and help each other... a successful Iran is no threat to Russia and a successful Russia is not threat to Iran.

    If the west applied that rule they would work out that successful ISIS and Nazis in Ukraine would want to spread their Caliphate and their white supremacist ideology to other countries (respectively)... and the West don't want them active against anyone except Russia or her allies.

    Their drones may also harass US forces but they aren't game changer specially when your adversary has a far better air force.

    Against larger drones fighter aircraft are very effective... just see the MiG-29 shooting down the Georgian Forpost in 2008... but against smaller drones airpower is absolutely useless... look at Saudi Arabia with drones and cruise missiles.

    Using airpower to constantly look for drones and cruise missiles is expensive and not particularly effective... sometimes their short range means not very long to spot them and deal with them...

    Iran should look into working with Russia on their new SAMs like Pine which is a simple cheap and very effective SAM that they could produce in large enough numbers to make them relevant on a battlefield... they could develop a version with a HEAT warhead for dual use anti air and anti armour use...
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    Post  RTN Tue May 31, 2022 10:45 am

    GarryB wrote:Iran should look into working with Russia on their new SAMs like Pine which is a simple cheap and very effective SAM that they could produce in large enough numbers to make them relevant on a battlefield... they could develop a version with a HEAT warhead for dual use anti air and anti armour use...
    Iran??? Iran can't even face Pakistan. They back off every time Pakistan mobilizes its troops. Pakistani air force is at least 2 gen ahead of Iran and you think Iran can face the U.S.
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    Post  Isos Tue May 31, 2022 11:34 am

    look at Saudi Arabia with drones and cruise missiles.

    Actully I saw a video they shared, saudi f-15 have destroyed plenty of drones there. However they ran out of missiles quickly.

    Iran should look into working with Russia on their new SAMs like Pine which is a simple cheap and very effective SAM that they could produce in large enough numbers to make them relevant on a battlefield... they could develop a version with a HEAT warhead for dual use anti air and anti armour use...

    I agree it would be the best system because you can't jamm it and it is a passive system.

    But they would need a very large quantity since it's a small range missile system.at least 600-800 would be needed.
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    Post  andalusia Tue May 31, 2022 11:59 am

    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Iran should look into working with Russia on their new SAMs like Pine which is a simple cheap and very effective SAM that they could produce in large enough numbers to make them relevant on a battlefield... they could develop a version with a HEAT warhead for dual use anti air and anti armour use...
    Iran??? Iran can't even face Pakistan. They back off every time Pakistan mobilizes its troops. Pakistani air force is at least 2 gen ahead of Iran and you think Iran can face the U.S.

    Iran and Pakistan are enemies? I thought both had good relations with each other.

    https://www.quora.com/Are-Pakistan-and-Iran-enemies

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue May 31, 2022 12:19 pm

    andalusia wrote:
    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Iran should look into working with Russia on their new SAMs like Pine which is a simple cheap and very effective SAM that they could produce in large enough numbers to make them relevant on a battlefield... they could develop a version with a HEAT warhead for dual use anti air and anti armour use...
    Iran??? Iran can't even face Pakistan. They back off every time Pakistan mobilizes its troops. Pakistani air force is at least 2 gen ahead of Iran and you think Iran can face the U.S.

    Iran and Pakistan are enemies? I thought both had good relations with each other.

    https://www.quora.com/Are-Pakistan-and-Iran-enemies

    They better be friendly since they face the same enemies like talibans, alquaida and USA and have the same friendly parteners like Russia and China.

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    Post  George1 Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:58 pm

    Kronshtadt expands UAV production and hires staff

    June 1st, 20:55
    Recent developments in the military-political sphere appear to be leading to an unprecedented boom in UAVs, including in Russia. The Russian UAV development and production industry is already in a state of rapid ascent and is preparing for even larger expansions. Kronshtadt JSC, the leading domestic company for the development and production of large UAVs, which commissioned Russia's first specialized serial plant for the production of large-scale unmanned aerial vehicles in Dubna, near Moscow, at the end of 2021, is actively recruiting in this regard.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4534702.html

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    Post  owais.usmani Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:36 pm

    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Iran should look into working with Russia on their new SAMs like Pine which is a simple cheap and very effective SAM that they could produce in large enough numbers to make them relevant on a battlefield... they could develop a version with a HEAT warhead for dual use anti air and anti armour use...
    Iran??? Iran can't even face Pakistan. They back off every time Pakistan mobilizes its troops. Pakistani air force is at least 2 gen ahead of Iran and you think Iran can face the U.S.

    You smoking some high quality weed are you? When did Pakistan mobilize its troops against Iran???

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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:28 am

    Iran??? Iran can't even face Pakistan. They back off every time Pakistan mobilizes its troops. Pakistani air force is at least 2 gen ahead of Iran and you think Iran can face the U.S.

    Iran isn't the US... they don't attack for fun or for practise... Iran faces the US because the US gives them no other choice...

    I would say that Pakistan having nuclear weapons is more of a deterrent to conflict than Pakistans air force, but I was not aware of any animosity between the two countries like there is with say Pakistan and India or Iran and Israel or Iran and Saudi Arabia.

    Actully I saw a video they shared, saudi f-15 have destroyed plenty of drones there. However they ran out of missiles quickly.

    Well they don't seem to have even noticed the cruise missile attacks until explosions started happening at their oil refineries... so the level of protection is very poor.

    But they would need a very large quantity since it's a small range missile system.at least 600-800 would be needed.

    If they made it locally they could get to those sorts of numbers eventually and the whole point is that these systems could be used together with other longer range systems they already make or buy from China and Russia.

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    Post  limb Fri Jun 03, 2022 7:49 am

    Are there any fully domestic producers of quadcopter drones in Russia?

    How many years will it take for the russian army to substitute civilian DJI drones?
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    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Rostec designs new UAV navigation system, making drones invulnerable to electronic warfare

    Post  gc3762 Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:35 am

    https://tass.com/defense/1459967

    Rostec designs new UAV navigation system, making drones invulnerable to electronic warfare
    The design is implemented as a closed-loop guidance system, it will be more accurate than an inertial navigation system
    MOSCOW, June 3. /TASS/. The Kalashnikov group of companies (part of Rostec corporation) have designed a new type of navigation for unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), which makes them practically invulnerable to electronic warfare systems, TASS learned from Rostec on Friday.

    "The design does not rely on satellite navigation and is implemented in the form of a closed-loop guidance system. This allows the drone to successfully counter electronic warfare systems, making it impossible to seize control over it," the company said.

    Besides, the new navigational system is more precise than the Inertial Navigation System (INS). According to designers, the use of it will help to minimize the number of lost drones.

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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:07 am

    https://tass.com/defense/1461445

    MOSCOW, June 7. /TASS/. The most advanced deck-based unmanned aerial vehicle is scheduled to make the first test flight in 2025, a source in the defense sector told TASS.

    "The first prototype of the domestic deck-based drone will make the test flight in three years. Series production of the drone for the Navy will start in 2026," the source said.

    The front-end engineering design of shipborne strike and reconnaissance drones will begin in the second half of this year and the design is expected to be delivered in 2024, the source noted. "Detail engineering documents will be released and preparation for aircraft production will start in 2025," he added.

    TASS has no official information in this regard.


    are they talking about this drone you think?

    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 30 Images10


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    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:22 am

    They mention helicopter based drones but this VSTOL take off model would be useful too.

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    Post  Gazputin Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:10 pm

    so they are talking about roughly the same time the project 23900 heli-carriers arrive
    they are about 32m wide ?

    so Sirius at 30m wingspan is nonsense..... even current Orion at 16m span .... is pushing it - re control tower complex

    I think it will be heli and the Frigate .... both are under development at Kronstadt
    Frigate makes total sense to me for any carrier

    guess 1st thing they will really want something to hike an AWACs type system to a decent altitude .... I would

    Frigate works for me ... if you assume your satellite GPS will be jammed

    last I heard on Frigate was they were making a 1/3 prototype
    assume that is to do will available engines ?

    what you really want of course is electric motors in swiveling pods
    like pod drives in a ship
    you don't want fuel lines etc in a setup like that

    interesting days .... as always ... with Russia involved
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    Post  Kiko Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:39 pm

    Russia uses a modernized version of Lantset suicide drones in Ukraine, 21.07.2022.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia has started using a modernized version of Lantset kamikaze drones in Ukraine, which are characterized by greater flight range and a more powerful warhead, a source familiar with the matter revealed to Sputnik.

    "The flight range has increased to one hour and the warhead weighs more than five kilos, two more than the base version. The new Lantsets with explosive ammunition are used to attack troops and light armored vehicles," the source said.

    The munitions are detonated in the air, at a certain distance or above the target, so that the shock wave and shrapnel cover as much surface area as possible.

    The new suicide drones, a product of the ZALA AERO company, are used in attacks on open fortifications, military hiding inside buildings or in forest areas, as well as against mortar batteries.

    The ammunition varies depending on the target: explosive or thermobaric are used against the troops, and against armored vehicles, the so-called HEAT, with high anti-tank explosive power.

    The modernized version of the Lantset presents changes at the level of different aerodynamics. Instead of two symmetrical wings in the base variant, the new drones have an extensive single X-shaped wing and a similarly configured empennage.

    Yandex Translate from Spanish

    https://mundo.sputniknews.com/20220721/rusia-utiliza-una-version-modernizada-de-drones-suicidas-lantset-en-ucrania-1128541301.html

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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:02 am

    It would make sense to standardise warheads, so for instance the RPG-7 fires a range of rocket types that vary mainly with regard to the calibre of the warhead sticking out the nose... the original rockets were about 73mm calibre and later ones had various sized rockets from 93mm and 105mm and now 125mm rocket warheads.

    The rocket motor is limited by the calibre of the tube of course and is a 40mm tube, but the point is that the warheads are all standardised to fit the rockets that deliver them so having a screw in attachment area in the nose of the weapon would allow the warheads to be attached to the drone before launch and could be anything from the 40mm HE Frag anti personel rockets through to the thermobaric and the HEAT warheads and double warhead rockets for various purposes.

    Another option would be to design the drone to just carry 120mm mortar bomb/shell warheads or perhaps 82mm mortar bomb warheads or even 122mm Grad rocket payloads, or 57mm or 80mm or 122m air rocket payloads that are being introduced for the ground and air launched guided models... improved explosives and propellents making them more useful and more effective.

    One of the main weaknesses of kamikazi drones so far seems to be warheads that are too weak so bigger heavier warheads is a good improvement.
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    Post  Dima Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:24 am

    Hope the Iranian (& Chinese) armed drones do come and in good enough numbers, including the Kaman-22. 
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    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 30 KAMAN-22-FINAL-VER-3000PX-scaled

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    Post  Dima Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:33 am

    LMFS wrote:In the near future, the Russian Armed Forces should receive strategic drones

    Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said that modern complexes with operational unmanned aerial vehicles continue to be supplied to the Russian Army and Navy.

    MOSCOW, May 20. /tass/. Strategic air drones should enter service with the Russian army in the near future. This was stated on Friday by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu at a meeting of the board of the military department.

    "In the near future, it is expected to deliver strategic drones [to the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation]. Their use will save flight personnel and significantly reduce the cost of solving reconnaissance and fire tasks by reducing the consumption of ammunition and the resource of aircraft, " he said.

    Shoigu noted that modern complexes with operational unmanned aerial vehicles continue to be supplied to the Russian Army and Navy.

    "Unmanned aerial vehicles are actively used by the Armed Forces [of the Russian Federation] to solve a wide range of tasks. Over the past 10 years, the intensity of their flights has increased seven-fold, and the annual flight time has increased 23-fold, " the minister said.

    He said that since 2015, unmanned aircraft have been monitoring the situation around the clock in almost the entire territory of Syria and since the beginning of the Syrian operation, more than 58 thousand flights have been performed, while the total flight time exceeded 377 thousand hours.

    "During a special military operation in Ukraine, unmanned aerial vehicles conduct aerial reconnaissance and carry out selective pinpoint strikes against enemy targets in dense urban areas, preventing damage to civilian infrastructure and the death of civilians. During the operation, the raid has already amounted to more than 25 thousand hours. The information obtained with the help of drones is transmitted to consumers in real time. This allows the troops to quickly respond to changes in the situation and act as efficiently as possible," the head of the Defense Ministry stressed.

    Shoigu also said that the board meeting will consider a draft program for equipping the Aerospace Forces and the Navy with complexes with medium-and long-range unmanned aerial vehicles until 2030.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14682023
    It took them only around 20 years to wake up.
    Thanks to the traitors & morons inside Russia and the establishment, they put the Zond series concept/project in the dustbin to purchase the Isreali drones.

    From MAKS 2003
    Zond-1
    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 30 Maks2003d1003

    Zond-2
    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 30 Maks2003d1137

    Zond-3
    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 30 Maks2003d1106
    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 30 Sukhoi_zond_series-4

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    Post  franco Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:41 pm

    Named the timing of the first flight of the new heavy attack drone "Sirius"

    The Kronstadt group confirmed plans to start flight tests of the new Sirius heavy attack drone. According to the group's CEO Oleg Shilov, the drone will take off in the near future.

    The company is preparing a prototype of the strike Sirius for the first flight, flight tests will begin this year, more detailed information on the timing could not be obtained. Earlier, May was called the start of flight tests, they were supposed to last until the end of the year, after which it was planned to make a decision on mass production. The Ministry of Defense is waiting for this drone next year.

    The Sirius attack drone is a heavier variant of the Orion with satellite control and the ability to interact with manned aircraft . Due to the equipping with two engines "Sirius" has a greater range and greater payload. Refers to a medium-altitude drone with a long flight duration. Structurally, it is an aircraft of a normal aerodynamic design with a thin fuselage, a large-span straight wing and a V-shaped plumage. The power plant includes two turboprop engines.

    Wingspan - 23 m, length - up to 9 m. Maximum takeoff weight - 2 - 2.5 tons (tentatively), of which 1 ton is fuel. Payload - 450 kg (on an external sling - 300 kg). Flight altitude - 7 thousand meters, cruising speed - 180 km / h.

    https://topwar-ru.translate.goog/200070-nazvany-sroki-pervogo-poleta-novogo-tjazhelogo-udarnogo-bespilotnika-sirius.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

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    Post  caveat emptor Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:04 pm

    Any news on Altius drone? That thing took forever.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:32 am

    Su-57 has a lot more lift surfaces than the pig-35 which needs a powerful engine to stay in the air at mach 1.8 max and no supercruise.

    They were looking at a foreign drone that had two main wings in tandem, which might be a solution to reduce max width, but most of the time a drone on an aircraft carrier can have its wings folded... I have seen some designs with double folded wings to really make them compact on deck and then when sitting in front of the takeoff ramp... unfold the wings and some sort of cat assisted takeoff via a ramp would be very interesting.

    Problem of course is that I have not seen cats and ramps combined together but a straight ramp should be possible rather than a curved or progressive ramp.

    Of the two new helicopter carriers they are building one is supposed to be a drone carrier, so some sort of catapult launch system for it would be interesting... they have no VSTOL fighters or AWACS platforms for it AFAIK so rather than a big powerful EMALS cat capable of launching a 30-40 ton aircraft, it could be smaller and lighter and just launch 10-20 ton MALEs and HALEs that might fly for very long periods.

    The Soviets had some very interesting early aircraft designs with huge very high lift wings for short takeoff and landing that in flight retracted to leave two slim low drag cruising wing surfaces to allow long endurance and low drag and good flight speeds...

    Will be interesting to see what they can come up with.
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    Post  franco Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:07 pm

    NOTE: still needs more confirming. I consider this issue a classic example of "where there is smoke, generally there is fire". However the Russian military do seriously lacks a long range satcom UAV. Yes, there are a number of good ones in the work but they are still years away from coming into service and Russia needs some now! As far as a thousand, dubious unless that includes some kamikaze units. Reports keep surfacing about Shadid 129 long range UAV mentioned below and one of the Iranian swarm kamikaze UAV's fired from a launcher with 10 units.



    Iran Confirms Drone Sale To Russia - But What Will It Buy In Exchange?

    Small birds do not taste well and their small bones makes eating them a fickle. I will have overcome that though as I will now have to eat some crow.

    On July 12 Moon of Alabama headlined:

    No, Iran Will Not Deliver Armed Drones To Russia

    In March this year we were treated to an onslaught of obviously false claims that China would deliver weapons to Russia for the fight in Ukraine.
    ...
    Now an equally stupid claim was launched by the very same liar who launched the fake Chinese weapons claim.

    White House: Iran set to deliver armed drones to Russia - AP - Jul 7, 2022
    ...
    Russia has absolutely no need to buy drones from Iran. Besides that it is dubious that Iran would be able to deliver some and certainly not 'several hundreds'.
    ...
    The whole issues is just a talking point designed to put Iran and Russia into the same 'baddies' binder for Biden's talks in the Middle East. The countries there may not like Iran but they will certainly not allow for a condemnation of Russia. The whole idea is, as many others Sullivan had, stupid to begin with.

    So no, there will not be any Iranian drones going to Russia or fly over Ukraine.

    I, like the other Iran-watch writers I quoted, was wrong.

    Elijah J. Magnier, who has excellent contacts within the 'axis of resistance' led by Iran, reports:

    Russia buys 1,000 drones from Iran and expands the level of strategic cooperation

    Iran and Russia had expanded the level of their strategic cooperation in various fields, most recently in space when a Russian rocket launched an Iranian satellite into orbit from the Russian launch facility in Kazakhstan. Iran will undoubtedly benefit from renewing its bank of objectives and identifying more targets related to its enemies based in the Middle East, mainly the US military bases and Israel. Moreover, Russia has signed a contract with Iran to buy 1,000 drones after Iran delivered a few planes and a simulator on which Russian officers trained: they successfully used the first drones in Ukraine. This move is considered unprecedented for a superpower to buy its drones from Iran. Tehran considers this to be recognition of its advanced and effective military industry, achieved despite 43 years of US sanctions on the “Islamic Republic”.

    The buy seems to be about bigger long endurance drones, not small tactical ones like the Orlan 10 which Russia mass produces itself. Writes Magnier:

    According to well-informed sources in Iran, “the purchase of drones by a superpower like Russia is an important indication confirming the quality and development of Iranian industry, which has succeeded in producing the most advanced drones such as the Shahid 129 which can fly for a period exceeding 24 hours. This is what attracted Russia, especially for use in its war in Ukraine.”

    Russia has developed a number of drones for itself. The Orlan-10 is good for artillery observation and electronic warfare on the tactical battalion level. Then there is the 200 kilogram Korsar which has a tactical strike role. There is also the ZALA-421-16E5, a ...

    ... tactical operation unmanned aerial reconnaissance system. The UAV flight duration is 6-7 hours, the flight range is up to 150 km, the monitored area can exceed 21,000 sq km in a single launch.

    That is better than the Orlan 10 but still at the basic tactical level.

    Anything above that, an operational-tactical drone that can stay up for a whole day and night and continuously cover the front of one or more brigades is something that Russia has not had so far.

    The Iranian Shahed 129 is an equivalent to the U.S. MQ-1 Predator. It has infrared and day optics, a laser designator for precise targeting and it can carry four precision-guided bombs. Its range is 1,500 kilometer which is significantly more then current Russian drones have. Since 2014 these drones have been used by Iran in Syria so Russia will already have has some direct experience with their battle field performance.

    I am sure though that Iran will take several years to deliver 1,000 of those. But that may not matter. A few dozen will be sufficient enough for now to continuously cover the whole 2,000 kilometer frontline in Ukraine at the necessary depths.

    It is unusual for Russia to buy weapons from other states without any other compensation. I therefore suspect that this is not a one sided deal but that Iran has promised to buy some significant Russian systems in exchange.

    An order of several dozen of the most modern version of the Suchoi Su-35 air superiority fighter would make sense. They would finally allow Iran to get rid of the way too old U.S. made F-4 Phantoms and Grumman F-14 that it has been flying (and crashing) for ages.

    Iran and Russia may want to wait for the outcome of the still ongoing nuclear agreement negotiations before any official deal will be announced. It simply would be unwise to disturb that process now and to give hawks in the U.S. more arguments to let the deal fail.

    The further cooperation between Russia and Iran though is independent of the outcome of the nuclear agreement negotiations. It will succeed as nothing that the U.S. could throw up against it is able to influence either side.

    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/08/iran-confirms-drone-sale-to-russia-but-what-will-it-buy-in-exchange.html

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    Post  caveat emptor Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:43 pm

    Elijah Magnier is, indeed,very reliable source on everything ME.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:24 pm

    (...)
    The Iranian Shahed 129 is an equivalent to the U.S. MQ-1 Predator. It has infrared and day optics, a laser designator for precise targeting and it can carry four precision-guided bombs. Its range is 1,500 kilometer which is significantly more then current Russian drones have. Since 2014 these drones have been used by Iran in Syria so Russia will already have has some direct experience with their battle field performance.

    I am sure though that Iran will take several years to deliver 1,000 of those. But that may not matter. A few dozen will be sufficient enough for now to continuously cover the whole 2,000 kilometer frontline in Ukraine at the necessary depths.

    It is unusual for Russia to buy weapons from other states without any other compensation. I therefore suspect that this is not a one sided deal but that Iran has promised to buy some significant Russian systems in exchange.

    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/08/iran-confirms-drone-sale-to-russia-but-what-will-it-buy-in-exchange.html

    concerning the drone deal with Iran:
    from what I can understand this drone is also comparable to the famous Turkish drone. Furthermore both of them are powered by rotax engines (small 4 pistons petrol engines used normally by ultralight aircrafts and with about 100hp).

    Rotax is an Austrian company (owned by a Canadian company). I am not sure if Iran or turkey are able to produce the engine independently, but I do not believe so.
    Anyway, apparently the deal is also about the more recent Stealth drone Shahed Saegheh (sometimes called shahel 191).


    One of the main reasons Russia was less developed in small combat drones is because it did not have a good industry for the production of small aeronautical engines after the fall of Soviet Union and the move towards America of countries like Czech Republic and Poland, that were assigned this task by soviet union (not because soviet Union could not produce them but to help those "friendly" countries).
    Furthermore recently it concentrated on the development of reconnaissance drones like the Forpost and the Orion and later on large combat drones. Orions could also have a combat variant but other countries developed combat drones of this size and characteristics already since several years.


    Russia initially also used Rotax engines for the Orion drones but now they should have their own.

    According to this article

    https://en.topwar.ru/179711-rossija-poluchit-linejku-dvigatelej-dlja-otechestvennyh-udarnyh-bespilotnikov.html
    Russia is developing piston engines of various power (from 50 hp to 500 hp, and the within 3 or 4 years the full power range will be covered by domestic Russian engines in production.


    Here another interesting article. (Not entirely positive, but it contains useful information).
    https://www.key.aero/article/analysis-russias-troubles-combat-drone-development

    In its initial form, power is supplied by an Austrian-made Rotax 914 internal combustion engine rated at 115hp with added-on turbo charging developed in Russia, driving a two-blade Russian-made AV-115 propeller. The production-standard drones are to be powered by the new APD-110/120 engine, made in Russia and rated at between 110 and 120hp.

    So Russia already developed its own engines in the 50 -85 horsepower range for the foremost drone (russian development of the Israeli IAI searcher drone, which originally mount a German engine) and has ready or almost ready an engine, the APD-110/120, to replace the Austrian made Rotax 914.

    Possibly a part of the deal involves Russia supplying piston engines for Iranian drones, making Iranian industry independent from the west.

    Furthermore those engines can also be used for light aviation and small trainer aircrafts.

    Anyway I believe that if it goes forward it will also include localisation in Russia of the production of these (already combat tested) iranian drones

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    UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2 - Page 30 Empty Re: UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2

    Post  GarryB Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:36 am

    This move is considered unprecedented for a superpower to buy its drones from Iran.

    Why is it unprecedented... don't western countries like the US use Israeli drones, Russia has already bought Israeli drones why not buy Iranian drones?

    The buy seems to be about bigger long endurance drones, not small tactical ones like the Orlan 10 which Russia mass produces itself. Writes Magnier:

    The Russian purchase of Forpost from Israel didn't stop them making their own drones, in fact it probably raised the bar in several areas which Russian drone makers improved their standards... especially in cameras and datalink equipment.

    Anything above that, an operational-tactical drone that can stay up for a whole day and night and continuously cover the front of one or more brigades is something that Russia has not had so far.

    They have half a dozen such systems being developed... just none entered service yet...

    Getting some Iranian drones might fill a gap and some Iranian parts might fill gaps delaying Russian drones from production and service.

    Equally I am sure the Russian MIC might have a range of equipment and systems that might improve Iranian drones... the Russians seem to have invested in a range of specialised weapons for their new drones and Russian means they will be affordable and effective...

    I am sure though that Iran will take several years to deliver 1,000 of those. But that may not matter. A few dozen will be sufficient enough for now to continuously cover the whole 2,000 kilometer frontline in Ukraine at the necessary depths.

    Those thousand drones will be split into the four Russian military regions, so 250 sets per military region, and it will likely take years to deliver and test and train and develop proper tactics before they are fully integrated into Russian forces.... they may need modifications of their datalinks and equipment and systems, but as mentioned you would not send thousands into a war zone like this... they would be used in smaller numbers, and should prove rather useful... a question would be who would use them... spetsnaz might use them to check areas in enemy territory were their groups are operating... fake 100kg bombs can deliver food or ammo or specialist equipment... real ones can deal with specific enemy threats the spets group might have located. Equally an Iskander battery could use them to look for enemy artillery which they could engage using cluster bomb munition warheads... or with SPA it might track it to the shelter it hides in and take out that building with a 500kg warhead...

    Or the ground forces might use it to watch the enemy positions looking for firing positions that are active... or that are not active....

    Plenty of uses really. Vann will be spinning in his gravy...

    It is unusual for Russia to buy weapons from other states without any other compensation. I therefore suspect that this is not a one sided deal but that Iran has promised to buy some significant Russian systems in exchange.

    Russia will pay for the drones I am sure... what are you suggesting Israel got for those Forpost drones other than money for local production?

    An order of several dozen of the most modern version of the Suchoi Su-35 air superiority fighter would make sense. They would finally allow Iran to get rid of the way too old U.S. made F-4 Phantoms and Grumman F-14 that it has been flying (and crashing) for ages.

    I would agree, though perhaps their experience might lead them to wanting Su-30s with Su-35 upgrades to export standard with perhaps the RVV-BD long range missile as well.

    Russia is unifying the Su-30 as essentially a two seater Su-35 with engines and radar and other equipment upgrading the two seater and I suspect the export Su-35 components put into an Su-30 for export would be the equivalent two seater Su-35.

    They could also buy some simpler Su-30s to replace their F-4s in the fighter bomber role as a numbers aircraft.

    Iran and Russia may want to wait for the outcome of the still ongoing nuclear agreement negotiations before any official deal will be announced. It simply would be unwise to disturb that process now and to give hawks in the U.S. more arguments to let the deal fail.

    I can't see the US living up to its agreements anyway, and when Trump is president all bets are off...

    The US walked away from the deal... if they don't want to drop all their sanctions and other BS there is nothing to talk about... Iran will return to compliance when the US returns to compliance and so does Europe.

    Rotax is an Austrian company (owned by a Canadian company). I am not sure if Iran or turkey are able to produce the engine independently, but I do not believe so.
    Anyway, apparently the deal is also about the more recent Stealth drone Shahed Saegheh (sometimes called shahel 191).

    Maybe part of the deal is that Russia is developing new engines the Iranians can use in their drones without fear of sanctions and in return the Russians are buying some of their drones that fill gaps they currently have... not that they are instant solutions, but in the longer term a good reliable tested drone is always useful... even as a disposable tool for some difficult or dangerous missions.

    Possibly a part of the deal involves Russia supplying piston engines for Iranian drones, making Iranian industry independent from the west.

    And then you say that... well we agree.. Smile

    It would certainly make sense.

    I doubt these drones are safe from modern AD so using them before now would have come at a high cost of shot down drones... they are starting to become more relevant I suspect.

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