US-Iran standoff 2019- #2

No tin foil here.

It's simply bullshit.

They did report that CIA could have planted the bomb in one of the so called victims luggage. Why this wasn't confirmed?

Why there's no report about residues inside the compartment.

As I said before, why no one checked passanger list against ukrainian terrorist connections?

Or you think Iran is taking it for the team to de-escalate it?

I still don't buy it. The plane was taking off, the crew can watch a boieng at max range and even more. The guy inside the tor was not an amateur. He was trained and experienced because they wouldn't put inexperienced guys inside such systems defending Teheran knowing US could strike the Ayatollahs there.

They are hiding something bigger. The shoot down must be an error or collateral damage for something bigger.

Isos wrote:I still don't buy it. The plane was taking off, the crew can watch a boieng at max range and even more. The guy inside the tor was not an amateur. He was trained and experienced because they wouldn't put inexperienced guys inside such systems defending Teheran knowing US could strike the Ayatollahs there.

They are hiding something bigger. The shoot down must be an error or collateral damage for something bigger.

X2

But what could be bigger than that? I've seen people say that it was intentional shot down to kill a spy/defector. But this makes even less sense as they could have arrested him in the airport.

It was a theory they had with no facts to support it so they moved on. Baseless assumptions with no evidence to support them are just that baseless assumptions.

It depends on what residues you are talking about. The environment etc, again a host of reasons. It not being there means little really, as there are many natural situations where it wouldn't be, I am assuming you mean residue from the missile impact btw.

Privacy reasons and others, the general public doesn't get to know the list of names of those who died. Only the familie's and the governments involved. Whenever a plane goes down they always keep the manifest private, this is far from abnormal.

Isos wrote:I still don't buy it. The plane was taking off, the crew can watch a boieng at max range and even more. The guy inside the tor was not an amateur. He was trained and experienced because they wouldn't put inexperienced guys inside such systems defending Teheran knowing US could strike the Ayatollahs there.

They are hiding something bigger. The shoot down must be an error or collateral damage for something bigger.

It doesn't matter how trained someone is, humans, make mistakes.

You can deny reality all you wish, but again reality says your wrong.

the truth could slap people on the face in this forum and they'd still refuse to believe it.

@ ISOS

Not long ago, a " tourist" couple from Australia or New Zealand were flying drone on outskirts of Tehran. The outskirts of Tehran is just a rubbish dump. Nothing interesting from tourist point of view. They were spies and arrested and are serving long prison terms. There is advantage to low level observation. The resolution from sattelite may be 20 cm. From low level plane is one millimeter. Iran sites are this well hidden.

Looks like sattelite were tracking this plane. Exact location with sattelite IR detection. They knew about mission and they knew quickly it went wrong. So they plan to use Saudi bases to attack important target in Tehran. The leadership. Comments by Rouhani or Zarif not reliable. Not reliable politicians. Not acting in national interest. They may be replaced soon.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:
It doesn't matter how trained someone is, humans, make mistakes.

You can deny reality all you wish, but again reality says your wrong.

the truth could slap people on the face in this forum and they'd still refuse to believe it.

But this is why are we question the narrative as even someone like me with rudimentary AA system knowledge can say that accidentally shooting down low flying civilian jet who was gaining altitude id unbelievable. It doesn't mimic UAV, bomber or fighter jet.

Iran can say what they want, until we see full investigation I rather speculate and hear about interesting revelations.

The Russians can help here. First with the question of identifying position of yank space sattelite at that time. The yank eyes should have been on West Iran, where they were getting missile. Not outskirt of Tehran. The field of view of sattelite is also not very large. You can not cover the entire Tehran region adequately with sattelite just observing the entire region. You may have to change orbit to cover West of Tehran. The airport area of say two square kilometer. The Yanks must say how they knew so quickly. And provide info on their sattelite capability and position at that time. If sattelite orbit changes at the time plane took off, then this is proof of operation.

Also Russia can help by asking allies in Ukraine to look into financial position of pilot. If money transfered recently into bank account by Biden or Clinton.

Iran must search debris of plane to see if any spy tools or if all plane is standard.

The pilot was advised not to fly at night. Also advised by wife not to fly. But he flew into military sites. Excuse is wind. I have seen plane land accurately on runway at 90 mile per hour wind. No excuse to go off course.

nomadski wrote:The Iranians are playing right into the hands of Western propaganda machine, by running this fake story about supposedly Iranian missile bringing down a commercial plane. This is a perfect diversion from the real story of the murder of  General Soliemani.

Despite under US, Western sanctions for donkeys years, it seems Iranian officials are as corrupt as their neighbors India and Pakistan.

There is corruption index in world. I don't know if it is accurate. I think all humans are corrupt. I have lived in different country and seen different people. But corruption in human heart actualize, given potential opportunity. I don't support Iranians because I am Iranian. Nor do I support any government or agency. Iranians have a right to live in peace, like other people. No more no less. The great corruption is in the hearts of the American people. Compared to yank, Iranians are saints.

jhelb wrote:

nomadski wrote:The Iranians are playing right into the hands of Western propaganda machine, by running this fake story about supposedly Iranian missile bringing down a commercial plane. This is a perfect diversion from the real story of the murder of  General Soliemani.

Despite under US, Western sanctions for donkeys years, it seems Iranian officials are as corrupt as their neighbors India and Pakistan.

Yes because Iran who hates the United States, would do Washington a favor and take false blame for something like this. Mhm Rouhani was all like "Let's help America and falsely convict ourselves".

Do you realize how crazy that sounds?.

This forum is a riot, It's so funny to me watching people see the truth but make up excuses like this one and try and create situations where it's the US's fault.

iran fucked up, get over it not everything that happens in the world is some grand conspiracy theory.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Isos wrote:I still don't buy it. The plane was taking off, the crew can watch a boieng at max range and even more. The guy inside the tor was not an amateur. He was trained and experienced because they wouldn't put inexperienced guys inside such systems defending Teheran knowing US could strike the Ayatollahs there.

They are hiding something bigger. The shoot down must be an error or collateral damage for something bigger.

It doesn't matter how trained someone is, humans, make mistakes.

You can deny reality all you wish, but again reality says your wrong.

the truth could slap people on the face in this forum and they'd still refuse to believe it.

It's not the truth that is weired. I believe them when they admit it's them but the situation is weired.

That's not only one guy pushing a red button. They are a crew of 3 or 4 inside and other guys in the bigger radars next to them. The plane was following the same path as 8 other planes in the 2 hours before that and was taking off with its transponders working well.

Isos wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Isos wrote:I still don't buy it. The plane was taking off, the crew can watch a boieng at max range and even more. The guy inside the tor was not an amateur. He was trained and experienced because they wouldn't put inexperienced guys inside such systems defending Teheran knowing US could strike the Ayatollahs there.

They are hiding something bigger. The shoot down must be an error or collateral damage for something bigger.

It doesn't matter how trained someone is, humans, make mistakes.

You can deny reality all you wish, but again reality says your wrong.

the truth could slap people on the face in this forum and they'd still refuse to believe it.

It's not the truth that is weired. I believe them when they admit it's them but the situation is weired.

That's not only one guy pushing a red button. They are a crew of 3 or 4 inside and other guys in the bigger radars next to them. The plane was following the same path as 8 other planes in the 2 hours before that and was taking off with its transponders working well.

That is where human error comes input guys in high-pressure situations, They attacked the US base. Trump was ranting he would hit 52 Sites if they did, They knew USAF was in the air.

That is a very very tense situation, The plane was nearby a Military base with its lights turned off, chances are the pilots felt they didn't need to turn them on just yet being so close to the Airport.

The Iranian crew sees something that shouldn't be in the air let alone near a Military base. The radar would suggest it's a big plane, they think. It's a bomber getting ready for an attack run and they act.

That is reallll high-pressure situation, I have been in these situations. You have but a second to make a choice and sadly for the civilians. The Iranian SAM crew made the wrong one, UNKNOWINGLY. You may think they have minutes but real in the field, you need to make spilt second decisions.

Given what the SAM Crew knew, given what the reaction of the US was believed to be, given where the plane was, Given it had its lights off which suggested it was trying to remain hidden. It was logical for the SAM crew to think it was a military plane transmitting a false code or something. I don't blame the SAM crew.

Imo they made the correct choice with the situation they where presented with but that doesn't change the fact iran did it.

The Iranian "attack" was clearly a capability's show and contemporaneously an enemy air defense vulnerability show; it is clear to anyone (in particular the same US military operatives) except ,it seem, some contributor here.... wrote:

Mindstorm you are lying. How this attack could show the sensitivity of air defense. This US base was not protected by PAC 3 or THAAD. If PAC 3 and THAADs were there, most of the missiles would be intercept. This is how it looks. Many ballistic missiles were intercepted in Saudi Arabia, which shows that the US missile defense is in good shape.

Arrow wrote:

Mindstorm you are lying. How this attack could show the sensitivity of air defense. This US base was not protected by PAC 3 or THAAD. If PAC 3 and THAADs were there, most of the missiles would be intercept. This is how it looks. Many ballistic missiles were intercepted in Saudi Arabia, which shows that the US missile defense is in good shape.

They lost almost a thousand of soldiers to houtis ballistic missiles on their main bases and their main oil facility was destroyed.

That's not in "good shape".

Isos wrote:They lost almost a thousand of soldiers to houtis ballistic missiles on their main bases and their main oil facility was destroyed.

It makes no difference to the U.S because those soldiers who died were not White Americans. All of them were locals, people of colour And in the US scheme of things these people are expendables.

Look at the composition of US military these days. Mostly latinos, blacks, buddhist, hindus, muslims and other colored races. These people are coerced to join the military, because it doesn't matter if these fellows get killed in some third world hell hole.

Arrow wrote:

Mindstorm you are lying. How this attack could show the sensitivity of air defense. This US base was not protected by PAC 3 or THAAD. If PAC 3 and THAADs were there, most of the missiles would be intercept. This is how it looks. Many ballistic missiles were intercepted in Saudi Arabia, which shows that the US missile defense is in good shape.

Until now the liars in Washington told everybody that the Patriot system shot down most of these ballistic missiles fired against SA. Most of the time the Patriot destroyed cars in a parking lot and not the incoming missiles.

Mindstorm is absolutely right. This is a clear failure. The main base in a war torn country isn´t protected at all against air and missile attacks. How dumb and incompetent can a military be do let something like that happen?

The, according to Trump and his minions, "BEST MILITARY IN THE HISTORY OF THE GALAXY" couldn´t even manage to shot down one, just one, of the incoming missiles?

They r not coerced to join the US military, just lured by steady pay & benefits, incl. expedited path to citizenship.
There was no threat of BM/CM attack on those bases until after the general's killing, so the Patriots weren't deployed in time.
The Iranians knew that the plane just took off on international flight, so it couldn't be a bomber. Besides, the US wouldn't be sending a bomber or large non-stealth UAV into Iran w/o attacking its AD means 1st for days or weeks with stand off weapons, & Iran saw it happened before in Yugoslavia, Iraq & Libya. The nav. lights could be off due to malfunction on board. They could have sent a fighter to intercept it, but didn't.
So, it could be that some in the AD crew was set up to shoot it down to create more problems for Iran with more countries.

@ SeigSoloyov

Agree not fault of SAM crew, if plane nearing military no fly zone. As you said Rouhani and Co, already take blame and accuse IRGC as some kind of criminal, offering compensation. No investigation yet done to identify who made error. Another example of sell out government. And just because it was not Iran fault, then what was it? The pilot error seems unlikely. And quick reaction of identification by yank, very suspect.

@ Isos

The IRGC, displayed flight path. The plane made very sharp 90 degree turn to the North West. Before being shot down. Do you have flight plan for other planes? Is it different?

@ Tsavo lion,

The explanation of inside job, is least likely. To provoke tensions. Iranians could have hit bases, when full of troops. Yet they avoided this. Why go round the long way?  More likely plane deliberately went into restricted zone. For same reason you said. Provocations. With the Liberal establishment jumping on story to divert attention from the assassination. And finally blaming IRGC. Instead of errant Ukraine pilot.

@ Isos

The IRGC, displayed flight path. The plane made very sharp 90 degree turn to the North West. Before being shot down. Do you have flight plan for other planes? Is it different?

That's why I think this whole story weired. There were 10 such flights that nigh so the crew was very well aware that planes come from that direction and use those path. The plane was going upwards gaining speed something very normal for a civilian aircraft taking off and not a the way a bomber or a missile would fly.

Flightradar24
@flightradar24
There were 10 departures from Tehran-IKA from midnight local time 8 Jan through the departure of #PS752 at 06:12 LT. These are their departure paths. Prior to PS752, the last flight movement at IKA was the departure of QR8408 at 05:39 local time.

Iranian stated their operator made attempts to communicate with the Plane but after 10 seconds they opened fired when no response was given.

The operator stated they thought it was a cruise missile, that is some next level incompetence. Cruise missiles do fly low to avoid detection and pop into the air higher last second, So since the plane had no lights on. That is what they are saying.

I don't know how you mistake a 737 for a Cruise missile but hey. I can understand mistaking a bomber for one but a missile is another story.

Brig-Gen Amir Ali Hajizadeh who is the commander of Aerospace Force of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps since October 2009 also said a missile was fired and it bought the plane down and that the guys who fired thought it was Cruise Missile.

That is the story in a nutshell and it comes from the man who controls Irans aerospace forces.

More likely plane deliberately went into restricted zone.

A Boeing plane can be taken over remotely via satellites & computers to override any inputs from its pilots.
There have been claims that the technology has been secretly fitted to some commercial airliners. Some have blamed it for the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, whose cause is unknown as of 2018.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Honeywell_Uninterruptible_Autopilot

https://www.thedailybeast.com/could-terrorists-hack-an-airplane-the-government-just-did

Attack UAVs over the CENTCOM AOR r being flown from a base in Nevada near Las Vegas.

GarryB wrote:
To be fair that is a common human thing... 2 plus 2 is what we can see but we know the answer is 42, so the other 38 must be dark matter and dark energy... Putin is the dark lord and has a lot of energy which really matters a lot so he is the missing 38 and none of the other western media outlets contradict them... in fact they repeat the same message so a lazy mind is happy to accept it as being true because the alternative is that it is really something else and it might be worse to realise you are a slave to an evil empire yourself with nothing you can do about it... they want to stay in the Matrix...

A thing that was off in regard to The Matrix film as a metaphor about power politics, propaganda and human psychology was in regard to the character Cypher. He was the Judas/traitor who was perfectly willing to betray harsh truth for the comfort of illusion and lies. The thing that was off was that there was only one of him. For better accuracy, pretty much all the humans should have been Cyphers.

More news: https://lenta.ru/news/2020/01/11/nastaival/

https://riafan.ru/1241129-shapovalov-vozlozhil-na-ssha-i-ikh-bespilotnik-vinu-za-krushenie-boinga-v-irane

https://vz.ru/world/2020/1/11/176760.print.html

As per tsavos link, I totally agree that Iran only admitted that they shot down the plane to descalate situation.

Case fucking closed.