Both the su 47 and Mig 1.44 had conventional S duct .Russia used the podded engine and offset intake design. Which is exactly what the YF-23 had. And the YF-23 has better all aspect stealth than the F-22.
YF-23

Isos wrote:You have some links to the patents used for the stealth intakes. The link is in english but the links inside for the patents are in russian. I didn't read it, it's kinda long but if you read it maybe you could share good informations we missed.
RTN wrote:GarryB wrote:
Most jet engine blades are ceramic these days anyway and would be radar invisible. Secondly, the Su-35 has an air intake blocker that is used when the under carriage is down to prevent foreign object damage (ingestion) with the engines... could it be possible they use something like that to prevent FOD but also to reduce RCS when needed?
But Su 57 unlike the Su 35 doesn't have super cruise engines.
Most Long - medium range AAM's will follow a "Low-high-low" profile - ie. from their fired altitude (low), immediately climb to a much higher altitude (high) and then dive down on their target from height trading altitude for speed since by this time the rocket motors have burnt out during the climb phase (low) - ie. they coast to target. The only exception are missiles like the MBDA Meteor which have a turbofan motor giving them power flight all the way until impact with the target. This gives them much higher pk with a single engagement. Modern short range AAM's are extremely manuveorable (50 g+ turns), have a high bore-sight (90 degrees+ from the central line) and using IIR (Image Infra-Red) together with a UV co-linked system which collectively are extremely difficult to fool with flares and other decoys. This tends to give them extremely high pk's (0.9+) even against a highly manuveorable jets like the Su-27 series (read Su-35) and Su-57.
IIRC, Boeing lost out in the F 22 competition because their prototype the Y 23 was using radar blockers. USAF didn't like that idea.
But Su 57 unlike the Su 35 doesn't have super cruise engines.
Most Long - medium range AAM's will follow a "Low-high-low" profile - ie. from their fired altitude (low), immediately climb to a much higher altitude (high) and then dive down on their target from height trading altitude for speed since by this time the rocket motors have burnt out during the climb phase (low) - ie. they coast to target. The only exception are missiles like the MBDA Meteor which have a turbofan motor giving them power flight all the way until impact with the target. This gives them much higher pk with a single engagement. Modern short range AAM's are extremely manuveorable (50 g+ turns), have a high bore-sight (90 degrees+ from the central line) and using IIR (Image Infra-Red) together with a UV co-linked system which collectively are extremely difficult to fool with flares and other decoys. This tends to give them extremely high pk's (0.9+) even against a highly manuveorable jets like the Su-27 series (read Su-35) and Su-57.
Thus a Su-35 and Su-57 may dodge a single AIM-9X or Phyton-5 (less than 50 - 50 chance), but after that he will be either very slow or low in height or both.
The second AAM launched will then most likely get him. If such misslles are salvoed in a volley, the opponent is pretty much toast.
Add to that a Helmet Mount Display sighting system (HMD helmet) and the shooting pilot can look anywhere (even back over his shoulder), shooting his missile at any angle from the plane towards the opponent.
Given that these modern short range AAM's are all-aspect (ie. do not need to be fired from behind an opponent, but also from front with a high pk value) this all combines to mean that when two so equipped jets get into a short range fight are likely to mutually down each other within the first 10-15 seconds - no matter how manuveorable they are. Hence USA and NATO's focus on BVR (Beyond Visual Range) and stealth. This combination really works
I'm a little bit confused. I didn't say their idea is stupid. It's the opposite actually. I answered to his statement that there is no solution to make poded engines stealth and said they found a simple and effective solution.
From what I see the su-57 is facing upward and the missile goes at 90° and under the aircraft. The position seems to not allow the pilot to aim with helmet mounted sight at the target because it is under its belly.
R-73 has very good manoeuvrability and can lock at high angles but in this position the pilot can't see the target. Maybe it already lock before going up or maybe they use some sort of camera to target under the plane.
French pilots use the Mica IR detector as a cheap irist maybe they do the same with the r-37.
Yes. I've seen that. But that seems to be an artist's rendition. I was wondering if you have an image of the entire aircraft that shows the radar blockers. I did carry out a Google search but couldn't find one.
IIRC, Boeing lost out in the F 22 competition because their prototype the Y 23 was using radar blockers. USAF didn't like that idea.
TURBOFAN ENGINE on Meteor!
The point is YF-23 has a lower RCS than F-22 even it has partial serpentine shape like SU-57 , if they didn't like something it doesn't mean everyone should do the same .
magnumcromagnon wrote:F-16 forums will belch all day saying the Su-57 lacks stealth, but look at the fragile flaking RAM coating on the F-22, and the rivets and gaps between the panels (on the undercarriage) are far more extreme on the F-22 compared to the Su-57
Compare that to this:
The underside structure on the Su-57 (behind the nose) seems more uniform, and behind the cockpit the rivets are smaller and less exposed compared their counterpart (F-22).
GarryB wrote:Well it would be consistent.... with their bombers it seems they are going to keep their ancient B-52s and go with new B-21s and get rid of their B-1Bs and B-2s... so in that case the fighter equivalent would be to put F-15s back in to production and get rid of the F-22 and F-35s and make a new revised version of the F-35 called the F-351...
GarryB wrote:
Whether a target is stealthy or not it comes down to what do you kill it with... and with modern ESM and ECM and decoys and jammers and DIRCMs odds are the missiles are going to do as their name suggests and miss and it will come down to guns and my money is on Russian fighters in terms of manouver and gun performance...
Whether a target is stealthy or not it comes down to what do you kill it with... and with modern ESM and ECM and decoys and jammers and DIRCMs odds are the missiles are going to do as their name suggests and miss and it will come down to guns and my money is on Russian fighters in terms of manouver and gun performance...
If you fire 2 or 3 at a same target you have good chances to hit because the ECM and evasive manoeuvres will be good against the first but not against the next one because ECM don't cover 360° around the aircraft so the first missile will expose you to the second whike you make evasive manoeuvres and the second to the third.
Well as ar as missiles go I simply cannot see the Russian airforce abandoning them only to go back to guns.
Besides considering the track record of western anti missile systems their planes will probably fair about as well as HMS Sheffield or that one saudi refinery.
But when it comes down to guns the Russian ones are apparently very accurate and they carry very little ammunition so little infact that they can only afford to fire when the know that they will hit the enemy and are unable to fire against manouvering enemies at range like lets say a shilka would.
Meanwhile pindostanski planes have rotary cannon with a large amount of ammunition storage meaning that they can fire clouds of shells at thier targets accounting for multiple possible positions of the target at the time of impact and allowing them to fire on more occasions.
If you fire 2 or 3 at a same target you have good chances to hit because the ECM and evasive manoeuvres will be good against the first but not against the next one because ECM don't cover 360° around the aircraft so the first missile will expose you to the second whike you make evasive manoeuvres and the second to the third.
If your su-35 is very low at very low speed with a typhoon equiped with 4 ASRAAM coming at mach one from above the sukhoi is dead.
That's why range and number of missiles carried are important factors.
That's why the Sukhoi Flanker variants equipped to carry between eight and twelve BVR missiles so they can fire more than one, three or four BVR missile salvo during the opening phases of an engagement, the aircraft being targeted has a problem as it must jam, decoy and outmanoeuvre three or four tightly spaced inbound missiles.
GarryB wrote:
The MiG-29 and MiG-31 have computer controlled guns that only fire when the target is in a position where it will be hit, and the burst length is also controlled by the computer based on the target type.
Very simply they lock a target and pull the trigger and then manouver their aircraft to point the gun at the lead position where the target will be when the shells arrive. When the target is lined up properly the computer fires a burst whose length the computer controls... Obviously with the MiG-31 these bursts are very carefully controlled because while it carries 250 shells the 6 barrel 23mm gatling fires them at over 200 rounds per second so the bursts are kept rather short.
That is a little different.... western aircraft that are not French and therefore only have one type of BVR missile option generally don't launch more than one BVR missile at a time because anything that jams or decoys the first missile will probably do the same to the second or third.
The Soviets use different seekers on their bvr missiles so for instance they would fire an IR guided R-27ET missile and then a SARH R-27ER and perhaps an R-77 at one target... the target would detect the illuminating beam and know a SARH missile is on the way but wont detect the IR and ARH missiles till rather later... the efforts to evade the SARH missile will force it to use up energy or engage AB making an IR missile kill much more likely... any attempt to jam the SARH missile will provide a signal for the ARH missile to passively follow...
Firing three R-77s on the other hand would be of little benefit.
The-thing-next-door wrote:GarryB wrote:
The MiG-29 and MiG-31 have computer controlled guns that only fire when the target is in a position where it will be hit, and the burst length is also controlled by the computer based on the target type.
Very simply they lock a target and pull the trigger and then manouver their aircraft to point the gun at the lead position where the target will be when the shells arrive. When the target is lined up properly the computer fires a burst whose length the computer controls... Obviously with the MiG-31 these bursts are very carefully controlled because while it carries 250 shells the 6 barrel 23mm gatling fires them at over 200 rounds per second so the bursts are kept rather short.
As far as I was aware the Mig-31 was no longer equipped with the ГШ-6-23 but I do not really know mutch about this at all.
However regarding the armament of Russian airforce fighters it is usually the ГШ-301 with a handful of rounds, it does not matter how agile, fast or otherwise superior the CУ-57 is if it has only enough ammunition to shoot down 3-5 enemy aircraft.
As far as I was aware the Mig-31 was no longer equipped with the ГШ-6-23 but I do not really know mutch about this at all.
However regarding the armament of Russian airforce fighters it is usually the ГШ-301 with a handful of rounds, it does not matter how agile, fast or otherwise superior the CУ-57 is if it has only enough ammunition to shoot down 3-5 enemy aircraft.
The ГШ-301 while a good weapon with in its standard configuration seems to exist primarily as a small small and convenient token presence of autocannon on Russian fighter aircraft.
But also if we armed the whole outside hard points the RCS will increase , or may be it's a minor increase which will not make a significant change .
You might be confusing it with the aerial use of the Gsh-6-30; it stopped being used (for fighters) when the MiG-27's were withdrawn from service.
The cannon on a fighter jet is meant to be a self-defense dogfighting weapon (when the missiles are expended), the AAM's are the main armament against OPFOR aircraft. If your attempting to kill 3-5 aircraft with your autocannon in one sortie, then your tactics are fucked up! It's much better to integrate ground based SAM's with your aircraft interdiction before you get to the point of taking a autocannon to a AAM fight.
GarryB wrote:
Whether a target is stealthy or not it comes down to what do you kill it with... and with modern ESM and ECM and decoys and jammers and DIRCMs odds are the missiles are going to do as their name suggests and miss and it will come down to guns and my money is on Russian fighters in terms of manouver and gun performance...
magnumcromagnon wrote:
mnztr wrote:GarryB wrote:
Whether a target is stealthy or not it comes down to what do you kill it with... and with modern ESM and ECM and decoys and jammers and DIRCMs odds are the missiles are going to do as their name suggests and miss and it will come down to guns and my money is on Russian fighters in terms of manouver and gun performance...
Russian 30mm cannon is a beast. I doubt any fighter can survive a single hit.
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