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    S-70 "Okhotnik" UCAV

    Mir
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    Post  Mir Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:40 am

    IF you want to think like an American - think heavily modernized unmanned F-117. It's not rocket science.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:56 am

    bitcointrader70 wrote:I’m very hopeful for this drone. If they can get it to carry air to air weapons and pump it out in decent numbers. About 300 of these will do. They can challenge western unmatched air superiority

    IMO it will be 2 or 3 times more. They didn't make it cheap for nothing.

    Add to that some 2000 Grom strike UAV and 5000 orion type.

    Drones will boost the size so they will need to produce a lot of them.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:40 pm

    They can challenge western unmatched air superiority

    What unmatched air superiority?

    Like over S-400s in Syria?

    IF you want to think like an American - think heavily modernized unmanned F-117. It's not rocket science.
      S-70 "Okhotnik" UCAV - Page 22 1f43e  Meow...

    But it is so much more than just an F-117... for a start I suspect it has rather better range performance, and it also likely carries a radar for carrying air to air weapons and also using some air to ground ordinance too.

    Also the F-117 is a dead end solo invasion/murderbot development, while this is a significant step forward in fighter/air defence.

    I’m very hopeful for this drone. If they can get it to carry air to air weapons and pump it out in decent numbers. About 300 of these will do. They can challenge western unmatched air superiority

    They are calling it a wingman type drone so I would expect it can carry internally what the Su-57 can carry internally though obviously only half with just one weapon bay instead of the four the Su-57 has.
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    Post  Mir Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:30 pm

    The S-70 Okhotnik is a heavy attack drone - basically an unmanned bomber. In it's current configuration it does not have the speed to be an effective interceptor nor the maneuverability for air superiority missions. It will be used in dangerous strike missions.

    If you want an effective air defense drone you need something like an unmanned Su-57.

    Added picture for effect Wink Laughing

    S-70 "Okhotnik" UCAV - Page 22 Su57-w10


    Last edited by Mir on Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  LMFS Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:15 pm

    Mir wrote:If you want an effective air defense drone you need something like an unmanned Su-57.

    ... or the already planned unmanned version of the LTS

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:13 pm

    Mir wrote:The S-70 Okhotnik is a heavy attack drone - basically an unmanned bomber. In it's current configuration it does not have the speed to be an effective interceptor nor the maneuverability for air superiority missions. It will be used in dangerous strike missions.

    If you want an effective air defense drone you need something like an unmanned Su-57.

    Added picture for effect Wink Laughing

    S-70 "Okhotnik" UCAV - Page 22 Su57-w10

    I am telling you, that those dark shapes are there for purpose Laughing
    They are trolling the same way they did with 053/S-70 Very Happy
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    Post  Arrow Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:48 pm

    ALAMO wrote:

    I am telling you, that those dark shapes are there for purpose Laughing
    They are trolling the same way they did with 053/S-70 Very Happy

    This looks like the early artistic visions of PAK FA. Although very futuristic. It's too early for a 6th gen fighter. Maybe PAK DP, but the program is only in the initial stage of development, a long way to the prototype. It is not known if they already have a precise shape of the airframe. Interesting Very Happy

    Early artistic vision of PAK FA.
    S-70 "Okhotnik" UCAV - Page 22 1-004
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    Post  GarryB Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:12 am

    The S-70 Okhotnik is a heavy attack drone - basically an unmanned bomber. In it's current configuration it does not have the speed to be an effective interceptor nor the maneuverability for air superiority missions. It will be used in dangerous strike missions.

    It is an escort drone for fighter bombers... it might carry air to ground weapons, but equally it could carry air to air weapons too... it is no dog fighter... aerodynamically that is obvious, but it can be either a bomb truck or a missile truck for use against an opponent with a numbers advantage... like HATO.

    If you want an effective air defense drone you need something like an unmanned Su-57.

    Too big and expensive to make sense... for the price of an unmanned Su-57 you could have a custom designed drone that can carry several times more missiles.

    A drone optimised for air to air would have engine air intakes on top of the aircraft which hides them from radar on the ground or operating at lower altitudes... an air to air drone would be most effective operating from altitude and reasonable speed to maximise missile launch range and radar horizon... it would not need to be very manouverable but being able to supercruise would be useful and lots of internal weapon stowage of course and decent fuel fraction for endurance would also be good too.
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    Post  bitcointrader70 Thu Feb 10, 2022 1:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    They can challenge western unmatched air superiority

    What unmatched air superiority?

    Like over S-400s in Syria?

    IF you want to think like an American - think heavily modernized unmanned F-117. It's not rocket science.
      S-70 "Okhotnik" UCAV - Page 22 1f43e  Meow...

    But it is so much more than just an F-117... for a start I suspect it has rather better range performance, and it also likely carries a radar for carrying air to air weapons and also using some air to ground ordinance too.

    Also the F-117 is a dead end solo invasion/murderbot development, while this is a significant step forward in fighter/air defence.

    I’m very hopeful for this drone. If they can get it to carry air to air weapons and pump it out in decent numbers. About 300 of these will do. They can challenge western unmatched air superiority

    They are calling it a wingman type drone so I would expect it can carry internally what the Su-57 can carry internally though obviously only half with just one weapon bay instead of the four the Su-57 has.

    Su35/su30 cannot operate outside s400 nebo m+other multiband surveillance radars umbrella. It has no chance vs f35/rafael/f22 in neutral/hostile airspace as it has no means to detect these planes without being detected first.
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    Post  Atmosphere Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:33 pm

    bitcointrader70 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    They can challenge western unmatched air superiority

    What unmatched air superiority?

    Like over S-400s in Syria?

    IF you want to think like an American - think heavily modernized unmanned F-117. It's not rocket science.
      S-70 "Okhotnik" UCAV - Page 22 1f43e  Meow...

    But it is so much more than just an F-117... for a start I suspect it has rather better range performance, and it also likely carries a radar for carrying air to air weapons and also using some air to ground ordinance too.

    Also the F-117 is a dead end solo invasion/murderbot development, while this is a significant step forward in fighter/air defence.

    I’m very hopeful for this drone. If they can get it to carry air to air weapons and pump it out in decent numbers. About 300 of these will do. They can challenge western unmatched air superiority

    They are calling it a wingman type drone so I would expect it can carry internally what the Su-57 can carry internally though obviously only half with just one weapon bay instead of the four the Su-57 has.

    Su35/su30 cannot operate outside s400 nebo m+other multiband surveillance radars umbrella. It has no chance vs f35/rafael/f22 in neutral/hostile airspace as it has no means to detect these planes without being detected first.


    "Su35/su30 cannot operate outside s400 nebo m+other multiband surveillance radars umbrella. It has no chance vs f35/rafael/f22 in neutral/hostile airspace as it has no means to detect these planes without being detected first."

    Entirely wrong.

    also,

    "I’m very hopeful for this drone. If they can get it to carry air to air weapons and pump it out in decent numbers. About 300 of these will do. They can challenge western unmatched air superiority"

    Why 300? and not 250 or 350? What study lead to defining that number? And ''it'll do'' what? what's the scenario? and based on what was it selected?
    And no, Western air superiority is not unmatched.

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    Post  Isos Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:00 pm

    And no, Western air superiority is not unmatched.

    Well it is. They have a huge number of modern planes. Europeans alone have some 500 f-16, 500 typhoon, 140 Rafale and plenty other older jets.

    US have a shiton of jet. Much more than european reunited.

    Russia has around 100 su-35, 130 su-30, 150 mig-31 and some tens su-27.

    Russia can face NATO in Nato skies. But it's normal. It's like 30 countries vs 1. That's why Russia is deploying nuclear Kinzhal and Iskanders at it borders right now. It won't fight an unfair war with conventional weapons. That makes all those Nato procurement of expensive jets useless since they won't fight, not even one day against Russia.
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    Post  Arrow Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:15 pm

    Yes USA / NATO has a huge advantage in the air force over Russia. Much more fighters.Over its territory, Russia still has a powerful anti-aircraft defense and EW.  They can also destroy part of NATO's aviation potential on the ground with the rapid impact of hypersonic missiles.

    alone have some 500 f-16, 500 typhoon, 140 Rafale and plenty other older jets. US have a shiton of jet. Much more than european reunited. Russia has around 100 su-35, 130 su-30, 150 mig-31 and some tens su-27. wrote:

    In the air force, the West has a 10 to 1 advantage over Russia.

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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:53 am

    Russia, if it wants to compete with nato air force, needs to field at least 2000 hypersonic missiles that can target precisly aircraft bunkers in matter of minutes. And use it only to target the aviation.

    It will also need a powerful plateform that can launch many of such missiles at once. Tu-95/160 is the best solutionif they can carry 16 missiles each and have 100 aircraft operational which would equal 1600 missiles at once.


    It will also need few hundreds of Checkates.
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    Post  LMFS Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:54 am

    Isos wrote:
    And no, Western air superiority is not unmatched.

    Well it is.

    For what relates to the defence of the Russian territory, NATO has no effective air superiority at all, and that is what matters in the end. US can have thousands of planes that costed trillions and what not, means nothing if you cannot deploy, sustain and operate them in the theater. No thousands of hypersonic missiles are needed to counter them, not at all.

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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:57 am

    Yes but that doesn't keep US force far away. It can always park it fighters 500km away and use it to jamm and launch cruise missiles which some will go through russian IADS.
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    Post  Arrow Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:58 am

    Strategic aviation will receive its strategic Kh 95 hypersonic missile, and tactical aviation will also receive. In addition, hundreds of auditory cruise missiles mounted on bombers, ractic aviation, VMF and land launchers. For less important target. Even the USSR did not have such a striking force.
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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:02 am

    Arrow wrote:Strategic aviation will receive its strategic Kh 95 hypersonic missile, and tactical aviation will also receive.  In addition, hundreds of auditory cruise missiles mounted on bombers, ractic aviation, VMF and land launchers.  For less important target.  Even the USSR did not have such a striking force.

    Most will be used to target HQ and strategic targets like weapon storages, fuel tanks, military bases. Very low number will actually be launched against parked planes.

    Also once war starts planes will constantly move left and right and will be hard to target.
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    Post  Mir Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:03 am

    ...and so much for air superiority if you can't find a operational airbase to make a return sortie from. dunno
    In the end Russia will have air superiority simply because they can operate from rough unprepared airfields.
    Those very few NATO fighters that can make it to an autobahn will have very little to no support to continue any sustainable effort.

    US carriers won't be able to park 500kms from Russia without facing some major issues - like hypersonic missiles...

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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:07 am

    Mir wrote:...and so much for air superiority if you can't find a operational airbase to make a return sortie from. dunno
    In the end Russia will have air superiority simply because they can operate from rough unprepared airfields.
    Those very few NATO fighters that can make it to an autobahn will have very little to no support to continue any sustainable effort.

    US carriers won't be able to park 500kms from Russia without some major issues - like hypersonic missiles...

    Have you ever saw the airports in nato country ? They are huge. To destroy them with conventional weapons you will need a lot of bombs/missiles. And even then it will be repairable.

    Only way to destroy it is go nuclear.
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    Post  Mir Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:12 am

    Isos wrote:Most will be used to target HQ and strategic targets like weapon storages, fuel tanks, military bases. Very low number will actually be launched against parked planes.

    Isos wrote:Have you ever saw the airports in nato country ? They are huge. To destroy them with conventional weapons you will need a lot of bombs/missiles. And even then it will be repairable.

    Only way to destroy it is go nuclear.

    Things like the S-70's first job will be to take out airstrips and parked aircraft. It doesn't take much to put any parked modern combat aircraft out of action. and the same goes for an airstrip. You don't need to destroy an airport you just need to damage the airstrip - even just a little damage would be enough to put any NATO aircraft out of action.

    Once the airstrips are out of action you basically have air superiority and can relentlessly continue your attacks on the airstrips causing even more damage. You may even catch a few of those left and right moving combat aircraft in the process Laughing

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    Post  LMFS Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:32 am

    NATO cannot counter Russian advanced weapons, which can eliminate higher echelons of command and air defence, which in turn allows to saturate targets with air attacks each time more simple and more abundant, from high end missiles vs high value targets to dumb bombs and drones for the cheaper and abundant ones. There is no device in NATO force structure allowing to block that progressive degradation path vs. the Russian military, despite those daydreaming about how to sustain a campaign in Europe from US by use of tankers and other assorted BS.

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    Post  Atmosphere Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:59 am

    Isos wrote:
    And no, Western air superiority is not unmatched.

    Well it is. They have a huge number of modern planes. Europeans alone have some 500 f-16, 500 typhoon, 140 Rafale and plenty other older jets.

    US have a shiton of jet. Much more than european reunited.

    Russia has around 100 su-35, 130 su-30, 150 mig-31 and some tens su-27.

    Russia can face NATO in Nato skies. But it's normal. It's like 30 countries vs 1. That's why Russia is deploying nuclear Kinzhal and Iskanders at it borders right now. It won't fight an unfair war with conventional weapons. That makes all those Nato procurement of expensive jets useless since they won't fight, not even one day against Russia.

    It isn't, in our scenario.
    Russia has plenty of assets to deal with the overwhelming numbers in a defensive setup, meanwhile, they can deal severe damage to the air assets using strategic weapons.

    Certainly, they would be needed in larger numbers, but when escalation happens before war production ramps up, and during the war itself, the one at advantage would be the one constantly picking and chipping at the enemy's ability to produce weapons, in that field, russia seems to be ahead, they have longer and sharper sticks.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:49 pm


    Su35/su30 cannot operate outside s400 nebo m+other multiband surveillance radars umbrella.

    Why would it need to?

    Russian OTH radars detected US F-35s operating on the border of Iran from about 4,000km away... wouldn't be precise tracking data but would be accurate enough for an Su-35 to use its wing mounted L band AESAs to approach and engage without being surprised.

    It has no chance vs f35/rafael/f22 in neutral/hostile airspace as it has no means to detect these planes without being detected first.

    And what are these aircraft going to do with that information... all of them are much slower than the Su-35 and have rather shorter flight range and lower operational ceiling... and do not carry up to 14 air to air missiles each in LO condition.

    When Su-35s leave Russian airspace, like in Syria, they have S-400 coverage still... it moves with them. S-400 and S-350 and Pantsir are Air Force weapons.

    Well it is. They have a huge number of modern planes. Europeans alone have some 500 f-16, 500 typhoon, 140 Rafale and plenty other older jets.

    US have a shiton of jet. Much more than european reunited.

    It is funny because British ships will cross Russian waters in the Crimea, but seem less keen to cross Crimean airspace...

    Air superiority is not just aircraft.

    Russia has around 100 su-35, 130 su-30, 150 mig-31 and some tens su-27.

    Russia has lots of western aircraft flying near its borders, but not crossing into its airspace.

    The irony is that the Russian ground forces don't expect to operate with air cover, but HATO forces depend on it.

    That was at the core of their defeat by the Taliban in Afghanistan... with their air power withdrawing three months previously their ground forces and the ground forces of their allies for 20 years were pushed aside easily.... HATO is a one dimensional force... and worse than that... their air power is both their defence and their attack, so it will be worn down very rapidly in any conflict.

    That's why Russia is deploying nuclear Kinzhal and Iskanders at it borders right now. It won't fight an unfair war with conventional weapons.

    They most likely wont be nuclear armed... they don't need to be...

    Russia can face NATO in Nato skies. But it's normal. It's like 30 countries vs 1.

    I suspect you meant to say Russia can't face HATO in HATO skies... and I don't really agree.

    Your problem is that you see air defence and air attack as being aircraft centric. Russia would never just use aircraft for such things... there would be missiles and aircraft and also probably sub launched things too.

    Russia isn't a one dimensional creature the west used to speculate they were... I remember watching exercises in the west where the west would be in position and then "enemy tanks" would come and when they were defeated the "enemy" would send in their air power because their ground forces had just failed.

    Reality is that you could get the lot... artillery and armour and air power all at once all working together.

    In the air force, the West has a 10 to 1 advantage over Russia.

    Attacking forces need a numbers advantage, what the west lacks is a defence that is not based around fighters and AWACS aircraft because much of that will be destroyed in the attack so when they shift to defence they will be in serious trouble.

    Russia, if it wants to compete with nato air force, needs to field at least 2000 hypersonic missiles that can target precisly aircraft bunkers in matter of minutes. And use it only to target the aviation.

    Targeting AWACS and JSTARS and inflight refuelling aircraft would be where they start, and fuel stores and fuel trucks and support equipment would likely be next along with the few air defence systems they operate.

    Yes but that doesn't keep US force far away. It can always park it fighters 500km away and use it to jamm and launch cruise missiles which some will go through russian IADS.

    The combination of airborne radars (fighters and AWACS and other platforms) together with ground base SAMs means not much is getting through the Russian IADS at all and 500km away with fighters... how long will they last? That will be well within upgraded Iskander range and also well within Zircon and Dagger range.

    Most will be used to target HQ and strategic targets like weapon storages, fuel tanks, military bases. Very low number will actually be launched against parked planes.

    So WTF is the use of all these thousands of aircraft if your countries are going to be obliterated around them?

    This air superiority that HATO is supposed to have is supposed to protect HATO countries from air attack and you admit that only the hardened aircraft shelters with aircraft in them will be safe because of their numbers... that is not air superiority... that is ground dominance... for Russia.

    Also once war starts planes will constantly move left and right and will be hard to target.

    If they spend all their time hiding from Russian attack missiles then they are zero use as defence of HATO...

    Have you ever saw the airports in nato country ? They are huge. To destroy them with conventional weapons you will need a lot of bombs/missiles. And even then it will be repairable.

    If they don't get anywhere near Russian airspace why should Russia care... they are no threat flying around France or Germany looking for another airfield to land and hide.

    Things like the S-70's first job will be to take out airstrips and parked aircraft. It doesn't take much to put any parked modern combat aircraft out of action. and the same goes for an airstrip. You don't need to destroy an airport you just need to damage the airstrip - even just a little damage would be enough to put any NATO aircraft out of action.

    The terminal guidance systems on modern cruise missiles are amazingly accurate and could easily be fitted with a cassette warhead of cratering munitions which it releases one at a time down the full length of the runways... plus a few land mines as a surprise for the runway repair crew...

    With a 5,000km flight range the S-70 could have an enlarged version of the KMGU-2 munitions dispensers... they could redesign it to a 3 version that is intended for use from an internal weapons bay so it does not need fins or a pointy nose and its shape can be optimised to fill the weapon bay and carry the most possible munitions. Not just cratering munitions but also special material that will clog up a jet engine if ingested...

    They are probably at the point where they could fit a scramjet motor to a drone to get its flight speed up to mach 5 or 6 and its flight altitude up to 30-40km or so to make it a difficult target.... a Gefest & T bombing system that releases super heat treated FAB bombs like the ones designed for the MiG-25RB, but more so for an even higher altitude and airspeed release... the impact speed from 40km altitude and mach 6 release speed might mean the filler could just be concrete with the speed penetrating dozens of metres into the runway and totally obliterating the foundations...

    But even the stuff they have already like Dagger and Iskander should be plenty to keep HATO away from Russian Air Space and that is what air dominance is all about.

    Obviously it would quickly deteriorate to nukes which makes it all meaningless, but in terms of air defences the west has the aircraft numbers but not really anything else like IADS or missiles or SAMs in the same numbers.

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    Post  LMFS Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:05 am

    Novosibirsk to modernize aviation plant for production of Okhotnik UAVs

    About 2.5 billion rubles were invested in the project

    TASS, February 15. /tass/. Novosibirsk Aviation Plant named after V. P. Chkalov (NAZ im. Chkalov, a branch of PJSC Sukhoi Company) will modernize production within five years with the construction of a new building for the production of heavy stealth drones S-70 Okhotnik, a government source told TASS.

    Speaking to reporters in December 2021 during the roll-out of a version of the S-70 unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) with a flat nozzle at the NAZ sites, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Alexey Krivoruchko said that a serial contract for its supply will be concluded within six months. According to him, "Okhotnik" is a highly intelligent system capable of solving a wide range of tasks singly, in groups and together with manned aircraft.

    "There (the plant) has very good plans. This will be an expansion of the production of the Okhotnik with the construction of a new building," the source said, without specifying the production volumes of the UAV. He added that the modernization will start in 2022 and will take five years. In connection with the modernization, it is planned to increase the number of jobs by 1.5 times. The investment amount will be about 2.5 billion rubles.

    TASS does not have an operational comment from the plant and intends to receive it later.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/13708025

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    S-70 "Okhotnik" UCAV - Page 22 Empty Re: S-70 "Okhotnik" UCAV

    Post  Arrow Thu Feb 17, 2022 7:49 am

    So serial production in 2027? cry

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