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68 posters

    S-70 "Okhotnik" UCAV

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:44 pm

    Arrow wrote:So serial production in 2027? cry

    They said before induction in the VKS in 2024, but they may need to ramp up production. It is not 100% clear.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:54 pm

    Building them without enough su-57 in service wouldn't be smart. First makes a couple douzen of su-57 then start building the s-70.

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:18 pm

    Isos wrote:Building them without enough su-57 in service wouldn't be smart. First makes a couple douzen of su-57 then start building the s-70.

    I don't think Su-57's will be the only platforms that could control them. Apparently A-50U/100 AWACS are capable drone control command posts.
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    Post  TMA1 Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:43 pm

    Makes sense it would be produced for the new vehicle production period starting in 2027 with su-57m and other orders.
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    Post  Isos Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:53 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Isos wrote:Building them without enough su-57 in service wouldn't be smart. First makes a couple douzen of su-57 then start building the s-70.

    I don't think Su-57's will be the only platforms that could control them. Apparently A-50U/100 AWACS are capable drone control command posts.

    A-100 is still not in service and I doubt A-50U upgrade involved S-70 control because it came before S-70 was started. They probably control other type of drones.

    Other fighters were developed before s-70 was started.

    Only plateform that could theoricaly control it is the Su-30SM1 because it is a new pavkage in which they could have put incorporated the controls for s-70.

    I also doubt they finished the development of the software for fighter control. Both su-57 and s-70 are only prototypes with only 2 serial su-57. Maybe they still have a lot to do on the coworking part.
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    Post  Krepost Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:50 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Arrow wrote:So serial production in 2027? cry

    They said before induction in the VKS in 2024, but they may need to ramp up production. It is not 100% clear.

    Production at the new plant can start in 2027.
    Production at the old plant can start in 2024.

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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:38 am

    Shall we add 3 years now for the LTS production date as well Mad
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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:15 am

    "There (the plant) has very good plans. This will be an expansion of the production of the Okhotnik with the construction of a new building," the source said, without specifying the production volumes of the UAV. He added that the modernization will start in 2022 and will take five years. In connection with the modernization, it is planned to increase the number of jobs by 1.5 times. The investment amount will be about 2.5 billion rubles.

    This modernisation will start this year and will take 5 years... but it is an expansion of the production facilities... it is not preparation for serial production... in other words it is like the Su-57 production they have already started that and in 3-4 years... or about 2025-2026 they will start producing upgraded Su-57s with improved engines and upgraded systems.

    They will produce S-70 and by 2027 they will have upgraded the production facilities with a new production building to produce the upgraded S-70M version with lots of new capacities added on.

    Th S-70 is not something they thought of this morning... they will have been planning it introduction for a decade at least and upgrades to the A-50U will take that into account as will new systems for the navy and air force and the army as well.

    The S-70 will have a range of roles and likely will be very widely used moving forward and will likely be made in rather significant numbers... probably for all three main branches of the Russian military.
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    Post  lancelot Thu Feb 17, 2022 5:17 am

    I doubt the S-70 would need an air controller if it was for a simple pre-programmed bombing or reconnaissance mission.
    The air controller should only be necessary for more complex mission profiles.
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    Post  LMFS Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:07 am

    thegopnik wrote:Shall we add 3 years now for the LTS production date as well Mad

    LTS will be produced at KnAAZ

    Re. the new plant for the S-70, Sukhoi probably sees what Kronstadt is doing with their new range of products and their new production facilities, and they don't want to fall behind in terms of production effectiveness and scale, otherwise they risk losing positions in the UAV business in the long run, which will probably dominate aircraft supply to the armed forces in a not so distant future. Okhotnik needs to be very cheap and very fast to produce, which is also very important if it was ever going to be used in any big scale conflict, since unmanned planes are not going to be spared but used quite bluntly to degrade enemy capacities as fast as possible at the onset of the hostilities. Any air force using them would need to be able to quickly ramp up production and positively compensate attrition in the shortest term.

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    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:42 am

    Arrow wrote:So serial production in 2027? cry

    Full rate serial production.
    A program of five years for reaching such a goal with a plane that has not yet ended testing is a very fast one, indeed.

    In 2024 they will produce first serials and optimize production in the following period.
    Differently from the UAV of Khronstadt, more akin to missiles, the S-70 are to be built with the same standards of an actual plane.
    And one of 5gen also.
    The same production of Su-57is taking a lot of time.
    They had not said what but I think they need to be built with different standards than flankers and will need ad hoc trained personnel.
    And it seems there is actually some bottleneck in availability of such personnel in the number needed for the actual need of the armed forces.

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    Post  Arrow Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:15 am

    marcellogo wrote:
    Differently from the UAV of Khronstadt, more akin to missiles, the S-70 are to be built with the same standards of an actual plane.
    And one of 5gen also.
    T


    Yes, it is currently one of the largest and most advanced UAVs.  The level of complexity as in a 5th generation combat aircraft.  Only the X 47 has a similar level of complexity, but it has been canceled. The S 70 is an unmanned tactical stealth bomber.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:29 am

    It is not joined at the hip to an Su-57... it is pretty clear that the new engine nozzle means it is supposed to be stealthy and being a flying wing will be hard to track anyway, the point is that this UCAV will be very useful for Su-57 units but could also operate with other aircraft to provide armed support... remember for BVR combat you don't need to be highly manouverable... just look at the F-35 in that regard.

    They might send a dozen S-70s to escort A-50s and A-100s for instance so if those AWACS aircraft detect a threat they can vector an S-70 to fly towards it and launch medium or long range air to air missiles to deal with the threat. The AWACS aircraft themselves might be carrying short range anti missile missiles to protect itself from incoming long range missiles like Meteor or Patriot, but having a flight of S-70s operating with it means it could direct them to head out towards the launch aircraft and offer a chance to shoot down the plane perhaps even before it can launch any missiles against the AWACS aircraft... the S-70 is vastly more stealthy than the AWACS aircraft could hope to be and flying high it wont be using a lot of fuel and should easily be able to maintain high subsonic flight speeds to maximise missile range.

    Stealthy drones like the S-70 could also support strike operations flying top cover looking for interceptors or air defence systems... its enormous range being a natural benefit while its ability to carry long range anti radiation and air to air missiles would also be of benefit.

    Again using its low RCS it can fly high and at moderate throttle setting to maximise range and endurance and its view of the battlefield would be amazing...


    This is going to be a very useful platform.

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    Broski
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    Post  Broski Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:54 am

    GarryB wrote:They might send a dozen S-70s to escort A-50s and A-100s for instance so if those AWACS aircraft detect a threat they can vector an S-70 to fly towards it and launch medium or long range air to air missiles to deal with the threat.
    I always imagined that the S-600 would be based on the A-100 AWACS and S-70 Drones, an airborne air-defense system would be quite novel.
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    Post  LMFS Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:51 am

    The Okhotnik will take persistence and readiness to a new level, be it for strike, reconnaissance or AD roles, probably 8-10 hours on station are a realistic number, and that allows to work in a completely different way vs. manned platforms, that is, time critical targets can be met in much shorter time and the PVO gets some new airborne assets that extend their reach in a very valuable fashion, due to their quasi constant permanence on station and their high mobility, like some kind of middle point between between fighters and SAM sites...
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    Post  LMFS Thu May 19, 2022 12:44 am

    Serial production of heavy attack drones "Okhotnik" will begin in 2023

    Chemezov: serial production of Okhotnik attack drones for the Defense Ministry will begin in 2023

    MOSCOW, May 18-RIA Novosti. Serial production of heavy attack drones "Hunter "for the Russian Defense Ministry will begin in 2023, said at a meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin, General Director of the state Corporation" Rostec " Sergey Chemezov.
    "The Hunter drone, its distinctive feature is a flat engine nozzle. A new technical solution has made the aviation complex less visible to radars. In addition, a new ground control center is being created for the drone. In 2021, the first flight model was rolled out, and in 2023 we will start mass production and supply to the Ministry of Defense, " the head of state said.Rostec.
    The Okhotnik strike unmanned aerial vehicle was developed at the SukhoiDesign Bureau. Its length is 14 meters, the wingspan is 19 meters, and the take-off weight is more than 20 tons. The drone was made according to the "flying wing" scheme using materials that reduce radar visibility.

    https://ria.ru/20220518/dron-1789229802.html

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    Post  Gazputin Thu May 19, 2022 9:38 am

    apparently the Su-70 combat radius is 3000 kms estimate
    interestingly that is around 1/2 way to Hawaii from Vladivostok

    would certainly be an unwelcome guest for B-21s as an interceptor .... certainly B-52s
    it just strikes me as a very aggressive looking "drone" to just bomb the ground ?

    lets face it .... watching the Ukraine thing
    you basically have big planes lugging lots of missiles
    lobbing stuff from stand-off distances
    outside of air defence zones

    they already have long distance stealthy cruise missiles etc ....
    why do they need this to "penetrate enemy defences" ? ... that is just old hat American1980s thinking

    .... hunting big stand-off aircraft way out .... makes a lot of sense
    especially B-52s or even C-17s ?

    will be fascinating to see where they are deployed first ....





    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu May 19, 2022 12:00 pm

    I see it as an extender, its stealth means it wont attract attention because it should be as stealthy as anything it operates with, so operating with Su-57s it essentially adds an extra weapons bay of missiles per drone that are available to the flight of Su-57s.

    When it is operating with Su-35s or MiG-35s then it is more stealthy than either of these two aircraft so it might operate high and closer to the enemy and be able to engage air and ground targets from an advantaged position... altitude extends the range of all weapons it operates for no real cost.

    Enemy SAMs would probably find the aircraft before the drones so the drones could launch an attack and then retire a little, but high flying drones could also attack interceptors on their way to engage the Russian fighters.

    Or they could just fly as wingmen for the aircraft they are supporting and add numbers to the Russian side in terms of airframes and missiles available.

    An extra set of eyes would not hurt either in the sense of another radar or eo system for finding targets and an EW system that might include a powerful active jammer.... fly it away from your airgroup and jam.... which will attract fire to eliminate it... turn off its jamming and start jamming with drones on the other side of the manned fighter group... perhaps shifting the jamming location 50km which will likely be out of range for any missiles enroute to the first target which will now miss. The manned fighters noting the sources of enemy EW signals and launch locations of weapons fired...

    They will almost be as useful as more manned aircraft, but not cheap enough to be called expendible, they can be expended if it is considered worth it.

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    Post  LMFS Thu May 19, 2022 7:36 pm

    Gazputin wrote:apparently the Su-70 combat radius is 3000 kms estimate
    interestingly that is around 1/2 way to Hawaii from Vladivostok

    would certainly be an unwelcome guest for B-21s as an interceptor .... certainly B-52s
    it just strikes me as a very aggressive looking "drone" to just bomb the ground ?

    lets face it .... watching the Ukraine thing
    you basically have big planes lugging lots of missiles
    lobbing stuff from stand-off distances
    outside of air defence zones

    they already have long distance stealthy cruise missiles etc ....
    why do they need this to "penetrate enemy defences" ? ... that is just old hat American1980s  thinking

    .... hunting big stand-off aircraft way out .... makes a lot of sense
    especially B-52s or even C-17s ?

    will be fascinating to see where they are deployed first  ....

    The AD role is indeed intended for the Okhotnik, and certainly having a huge range / persistence is a key feature for that, when you are facing air-launched hypersonic weapons in the not so distant future (EDIT: and you want to intercept the carriers of those weapons before they launch). That being said, being able to use simpler weapons (more abundant and cost effective smaller range missiles, gliding, guided and free fall bombs) closer to the target and especially staying on station to be capable of interdicting time critical ground targets is very important for the economy and effectiveness of combat resources. Okhotnik should be as stealth as it gets, while very big (to pack a punch) and fast enough no to be a trivial target as Bayraktars and such propeller UCAVs. Next year it should start going to the troops, so maybe the nazis are lucky enough to be the guinea pigs used in its actual war test Wink


    Last edited by LMFS on Sat May 21, 2022 2:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu May 19, 2022 7:51 pm

    It propably has the same EW system as the Su-57. This will help against enemy AD systems. Not comparable to Bakshish drones.
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    Post  GarryB Fri May 20, 2022 5:22 am

    I would say it is more like a bot that operates with you in a computer game, you can give it basic orders and it can transmit its view of the world to you to compliment your view.

    It carries extra weapons and could be fitted with a buddy refueling system, so half way through the mission operating near a friendly base you could order two wingmen that are out of weapons to land so they can refuel and rearm and once rearmed and refuelled rejoin your aircraft who could offload some of the fuel for themselves to they can remain airborne longer.

    If you are under attack the drones will likely be using weapons faster than it uses fuel so why not take advantage of both.

    They might even have task modules where they could put jamming or recon pods in the drones weapon bays... maybe even camera pods like nav attack pods that could be used to lase targets delivered by other platforms.

    It might be carrying bundles of towed decoys and towed expendible jammers to distract the enemy and attract enemy fire while other drones operate radar and radio silent and look for enemy threats taking the bait.
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    Post  thegopnik Fri May 20, 2022 2:18 pm

    2024, 2027 and now 2023 production starts, so no set time until this changes again?
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    Post  dino00 Fri May 20, 2022 3:07 pm

    thegopnik wrote:2024, 2027 and now 2023 production starts, so no set time until this changes again?

    First 2025 after 2024 now 2023.

    It was never 2027

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    Post  Hole Fri May 20, 2022 5:06 pm

    Why not this year? angry

    lol!

    Next the usual trolls will appear and claim that the program is a total failure. Because... scratch Putin! Or something.

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    Post  Isos Fri May 20, 2022 5:22 pm

    Hole wrote:Why not this year? angry

    lol!

    Next the usual trolls will appear and claim that the program is a total failure. Because... scratch  Putin! Or something.

    They should focus on Orion drones for now. It is a much more needed drone than this one for their actual conflicts.

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