PAK-DΑ: News #2

Vann7 wrote:

is this the new pak-da design. ??  




i hope it is.. looks very futuristic.. and sexy. ..  

More nonsense from the same clown who made the previous render. The first attempt was taking the SU-57 and stretching it horizontally in photoshop.
This attempt is exactly the same crap and instead of the Su-57 uses the Su-47 with the wings backward swept.

I have not seen a single realistic render of the PAK DA. Rather impressive secrecy. We'll know in 2023 what it looks like.

I would expect something with lots of internal volume for a heavy payload for theatre bombing and their biggest bomb and cruise missile options carried internally, or a modest payload for a strategic mission with much of the internal volume holding extra fuel... and being all wing its performance should be pretty good.

TsAGI posted this as recent as March 17th, 2020:

TsAGI continues to work on the "Flying Wing"



Specialists of the Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute named after Professor N.E. Zhukovsky (part of the SEC "Institute named after NE Zhukovsky") continues to create a promising long-range aircraft in the scheme "Flying Wing" (LC) with a combined wing and fuselage. To date, an improved aerodynamic model of an aircraft has been completed and prepared for testing.

Studies on the formation of the appearance of the passenger liner of the LC scheme have been conducted at the institute for several years as part of the Line Research and Highway Technologies. Previously, a special thematic model with various options for the location of power plants and the tail geometry was designed and tested in the TsAGI wind tunnels. The experiments showed unfavorable interference at the upper position of the engine nacelles.

At the next stage, scientists continued the calculation and design work to optimize the aerodynamic layout of the Flying Wing and eliminate the adverse effects from the interaction of nacelles, pylons and the wing.

“The fuselage is clearly distinguished in the new configuration, which allows increasing passenger capacity and favorably affects aerodynamic interference with engines on the upper surface of the center section,” said Ivan Chernyshev, head of the department of aerodynamics of aircraft and missiles of TsAGI.

Experts of the Institute’s pilot production embodied a promising layout in metal - steel and aluminum alloys. The model is made on a scale of 1: 33.3, has a length of more than a meter and a wingspan of 1.8 meters. The design of the product is monolithic, it is a massive center wing with wing consoles docked to it and a  V-shaped twin keel tail. Due to the small number of parts - only 93 units - the manufacture of paints was not very difficult.

In the near future, testing of the Flying Wing model in the T-128 transonic tube will begin. Scientists will study its integral aerodynamic characteristics at cruising flight modes, including those with removed nacelles - to quantify the value of aerodynamic interference. It is also planned to visualize the flow around the model.

The Flying Wing is one of the most promising configurations for future subsonic passenger and cargo aircraft. Its main advantage is the ability to obtain high aerodynamic quality at a cruise flight mode (more than 23) and dramatically reduce noise on the ground by shielding the engines with glider elements. It is assumed that passengers can be comfortably accommodated on the two decks of the Flying Wing. This will allow not only transporting more people, but also improve the specific characteristics of the aircraft, including aerodynamics, weight and fuel consumption.

http://tsagi.ru/pressroom/news/4772/

Interesting the scale says the models are a 1 to 33.3 ratio, and the models is more than 1 meter long and the wingspan is 1.8 meters wide, which means a full scale aircraft would be over 33.3 meters long, with a wingspan that is 59.94 meters wide. Of course this is subject to change over the development cycle.

When I first saw those models I though... how unstealthy... but then I thought... for a long range bomber it would be most efficient to fly as high as is practical so having engines on top would actually not be a bad idea... but these are clearly transport and civilian airliners.

A while back there was a wind tunnel model where the wing had a really huge cross section across the centre section and I would suggest this would be useful for carrying very large cruise missiles and very large bombs internally...

Something like those pics for the big transport plane:



(without those silly black air intakes on the front of the wingroots either side of the cockpit)

It doesn't need to be fast or small... a design based on the S-70 would be good for speed but not for very very long range because it lacks internal fuel capacity.

The Tu-95 is a good starting point for a stealth subsonic standoff bomber. It has a very small cross section from any direction.
If these surfaces could be angular planes instead of cylindrical, then it would make the B-2 and B-21 into oversized billboards.
Of course it would need redesigned engines. If it is subsonic, they can make fuel efficient jet engines that avoid the
use of exposed propellers.

Stealth can be applied to a lot of the Cold War Soviet jets. They do not need to invent a new lifting body design to get
stealth. The above models look a lot like old design proposals.

magnumcromagnon wrote:TsAGI posted this as recent as March 17th, 2020:

TsAGI continues to work on the "Flying Wing"



Specialists of the Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute named after Professor N.E. Zhukovsky (part of the SEC "Institute named after NE Zhukovsky") continues to create a promising long-range aircraft in the scheme "Flying Wing" (LC) with a combined wing and fuselage. To date, an improved aerodynamic model of an aircraft has been completed and prepared for testing.

Studies on the formation of the appearance of the passenger liner of the LC scheme have been conducted at the institute for several years as part of the Line Research and Highway Technologies. Previously, a special thematic model with various options for the location of power plants and the tail geometry was designed and tested in the TsAGI wind tunnels. The experiments showed unfavorable interference at the upper position of the engine nacelles.

At the next stage, scientists continued the calculation and design work to optimize the aerodynamic layout of the Flying Wing and eliminate the adverse effects from the interaction of nacelles, pylons and the wing.

“The fuselage is clearly distinguished in the new configuration, which allows increasing passenger capacity and favorably affects aerodynamic interference with engines on the upper surface of the center section,” said Ivan Chernyshev, head of the department of aerodynamics of aircraft and missiles of TsAGI.

Experts of the Institute’s pilot production embodied a promising layout in metal - steel and aluminum alloys. The model is made on a scale of 1: 33.3, has a length of more than a meter and a wingspan of 1.8 meters. The design of the product is monolithic, it is a massive center wing with wing consoles docked to it and a  V-shaped twin keel tail. Due to the small number of parts - only 93 units - the manufacture of paints was not very difficult.

In the near future, testing of the Flying Wing model in the T-128 transonic tube will begin. Scientists will study its integral aerodynamic characteristics at cruising flight modes, including those with removed nacelles - to quantify the value of aerodynamic interference. It is also planned to visualize the flow around the model.

The Flying Wing is one of the most promising configurations for future subsonic passenger and cargo aircraft. Its main advantage is the ability to obtain high aerodynamic quality at a cruise flight mode (more than 23) and dramatically reduce noise on the ground by shielding the engines with glider elements. It is assumed that passengers can be comfortably accommodated on the two decks of the Flying Wing. This will allow not only transporting more people, but also improve the specific characteristics of the aircraft, including aerodynamics, weight and fuel consumption.

http://tsagi.ru/pressroom/news/4772/

Nice concepts, but...these pictures don't show PAK DA! In these pictures you can't find the designation pak da.

According to known information the PAK DA should be powered by a subsonic variant of NK 32. The engines here look more...civilian. Open turbofan engines in civilian style are complete unstealthy.

But the concepts are nice anyway!

But by definition a subsonic NK-32 would be the hot turbofan core used to power an enormous high bypass outer shell like a highbypass turbofan engine for a civilian airliner... volume of air rather than peak velocity...

Found an german sputnik article from 2019...

They say that the fan rotor ist derived from NK-93 and the rest from NK-32...so maybe this is the concept some kind similar to PAK-DA, maybe not!? Maybe they use special ceramic for engine blades...reflecting less radar waves?!

The emphasis of this concept is more endurance, range and loiter time than stealth. For me personally it's complete okay...it would be a stealthier Tu-95...easy to maintain, range enough and perfect loiter time. But complete different concept compared to B-2 or B-21 bomber. Russia is able to build full stealth designs, see Su S-70...so PAK-DA will be big surprise till the end, the design and the role. With this more "conventional" design maybe PAK-DA will qualify for much more roles, than only a strategic bomber...from surveillance, commando post, refuelling, maybe medium transporter etc.

I love the design! It's perfect for every other role than strategic bomber ;D The "flying wing" generates a lot of uplift, with engines on top of center wing it's not stealth, but a lot stealthier than conventional designs. The original intention of engines on top of the wing is noise reduction ;D With new eniges, the range and fuel consumption efficiency would be real great. I hope they continue the research!

A civilian airliner engine is optimised for low fuel burn and to operate at high subsonic speeds for very long journeys... it is an ideal bomber engine... which is what I don't understand about the B-52... they upgrade their big long range airliners that had four engines by replacing those four engines with two engines but their standard bomber has 8 engines, but there are people complaining that the MiG-29 has two engines instead of one...

A new high bypass engine developed from the NK-32 will be very very useful for new engine development... it is probably the engine they are calling PD-35 and will likely be used on their Slon An-124 replacement and any M4/An-225 replacement they might develop...

Wasn't the NK-93 the engine they were planning to use on the Il-106?

I see people are being dismissive, but from my understanding MOD has put out tenders to have 'civilian' variants be built of it's large strategic aircraft. There's a supersonic civilian airliner being designed, which will likely be an off-shoot of the Tu-160 design, similarly a wide body blended flying wing civilian airliner is said to be in the works as an off-shoot of the PAK-DA, and likely we'll see a civilian airliner version designed off-shoot of 'Slon' PAK-TA.

It's clear the purpose here is to offset the cost of PAK-DA, and the others, so we wouldn't see the fiasco that surrounded the B-2 Spirit and it's absurd $2 billion price tag happen for the PAK-TA.

And they take that serious where it is sensible... for instance they are not trying to replace the MiG-29, Su-35, Su-30, Su-34, Su-24, MiG-33, Su-33, and Su-25 with one brand new super douper 5th gen stealthy but still cheap light fighter.

But while they had design bureaus all wanting work there was no attempt to dominate and take every contract and use political and financial strength to get jobs you couldn't really deliver on...

They avoided the problems the Americans had with Navy stuff and Air Force stuff... their Army, Navy, and ground SAMs SAMs are all related except except one Naval missile... which I suspect might be an SA-5 with the booster rockets removed...

An airliner and a cargo plane need more internal volume than most bombers, but with a flying wing volume creates drag but can also create lift too... a bit like the body shapes of the MiG-29 and Su-27 create body lift to improve the performance of their wings...

I am not sure some of these offshoot programmes will actually lead to anything... there were airliner versions and interceptor versions of the Tu-22M as well as the Tu-160... and none of them led to much... but the fact that they are thinking about commercialising their products is a good thing for Russia.

Modern civilian jets need super fuel efficiency for economic reasons. I doubt that the Tu-160 can be reworked into a civilian
product. Where are they going to fit the high-bypass turbofans? The concept is from the 1960-70s Tu-144 era where fuel
consumption was not the first item on the list of priorities.

A civilian Tu-160 would be like the Concorde some high priced boutique service. But this business model is not viable as
demonstrated by the Concorde.

GarryB wrote:I am not sure some of these offshoot programmes will actually lead to anything... there were airliner versions and interceptor versions of the Tu-22M as well as the Tu-160... and none of them led to much... but the fact that they are thinking about commercialising their products is a good thing for Russia.

I think those never came to fruition because of Gordo-chov and Yelpsin....In fact the pussy Yelpsin didn't mind firing tank shells in to his own parliament, but the smelly vagina Yelpsin caved on threats by Boeing if they were to further develop IL-106. Thanks to Yelpsin there isn't a cost-competitive Russian (IL-106) airliner to compete on the open market....but we can all take solace that the fat slob Yelpsin is a rotting corpse pushing up daisies!

kvs wrote:Modern civilian jets need super fuel efficiency for economic reasons.   I doubt that the Tu-160 can be reworked into a civilian
product.  Where are they going to fit the high-bypass turbofans?   The concept is from the 1960-70s Tu-144 era where fuel
consumption was not the first item on the list of priorities.  

A civilian Tu-160 would be like the Concorde some high priced boutique service.   But this business model is not viable as
demonstrated by the Concorde.

The flights of Tu-144 and Concorde were not suspendend because of fuel consumption, it was because of safety reasons (accidents).

The Tu-160 is a mature product with better engines, than in the 70ies. Of course it's a product only for a niche, but it's a shitload of advertisment for russian aircraft industry. They can create a product, that no other nation plan to build...that will impact the sale of other russian aircrafts positive.

In a business world, where every second counts, in contrast to 70ies or 80ies....the price of tickets is not so important. If the CEO of a company can travel 7 hours faster, the company will pay a bit more for sure And I can imagine a few rich arabs will buy the product too ;D

Modern civilian jets need super fuel efficiency for economic reasons. I doubt that the Tu-160 can be reworked into a civilian
product. Where are they going to fit the high-bypass turbofans? The concept is from the 1960-70s Tu-144 era where fuel
consumption was not the first item on the list of priorities.

If they want to make it supersonic they would use low bypass turbofans or even turbojets with ramjet bypass engines.

If they could increase the thrust of the NK-32 engines to say 35 tons in full AB and increase dry thrust to about 22-25 tons they should be able to super cruise at mach 2 fairly easily... which should solve range and flight cost issues...

They are never going to have supersonic airliners with large passenger capacity, but that is OK... what rich person wants to stand in a line of 400 people to get on to their plane and then wait while the baggage is put aboard and then all the food needed for the flight?

50 to 100 people would be about the limit you would be wanting...

A civilian Tu-160 would be like the Concorde some high priced boutique service. But this business model is not viable as
demonstrated by the Concorde.

Concord was making a profit.... the real problem was when one crashed... its reputation was shot so they weren't filling the seats any more and you need an ass on every single seat to make money with that plane.... going both ways...

I would think China would be a good market to aim for in terms of flights to Europe and the US at supersonic speeds... plenty of rich people there who don't want to queue...

There should be 5 or so rich dickheads in the world to buy a civilian tu-160. It's really not a good idea to spend money on that.

The market is very rich people who like to travel but are not quite rich enough to be able to afford their own plane. Businesses who want people in places fast are another source of customers... but I agree there is not an enormous market... yet.

I think those never came to fruition because of Gordo-chov and Yelpsin....In fact the pussy Yelpsin didn't mind firing tank shells in to his own parliament, but the smelly vagina Yelpsin caved on threats by Boeing if they were to further develop IL-106. Thanks to Yelpsin there isn't a cost-competitive Russian (IL-106) airliner to compete on the open market....but we can all take solace that the fat slob Yelpsin is a rotting corpse pushing up daisies!

Certainly those two were happy to throw perfectly good programmes under the bus, and equally promising technology was squandered or sold off cheaply...

The flights of Tu-144 and Concorde were not suspendend because of fuel consumption, it was because of safety reasons (accidents).

The original Tu-144 didn't have wonderful range, though it was slightly faster than the Concord it used AB all the way.

In the 90s I believe it was NASA who hired a Tu-144LL and had NK-32 engines from the Blackjack installed and its performance was actually much more interesting.

Obviously now technology has moved on so composite materials and new titanium structures would dramatically reduce weight and improved design would reduce drag and increase flight performance... a new supersonic airliner would be much more efficient and effective.... the problem is that you can bet your ass if it is Russian then the west will mobilise against it... it will be single handedly creating holes in the Ozone while at the same time making glaziers melt all over the globe...

In a business world, where every second counts, in contrast to 70ies or 80ies....the price of tickets is not so important. If the CEO of a company can travel 7 hours faster, the company will pay a bit more for sure Wink And I can imagine a few rich arabs will buy the product too ;D

More money than you might think in Asia... China recently surpassed the US for number of Millionaires and Billionaires...

But if it is Russian you can expect the western media attack dogs to rip it every chance they get...

Personally I could care less... they have the Il-96... with PD-35 engines developed for the PAK DA programme will be an excellent aircraft... and its use in a PAK TA will be interesting too...

A flying wing PAK TA with conformal radar antenna elements fitted to its front and rear and sides could be used for AWACS and JSTARs roles and also as an inflight refuelling tanker and fire fighting aircraft as well as being a transport plane... there is plenty of scope for multipurpose development and design...

GarryB wrote:

The flights of Tu-144 and Concorde were not suspendend because of fuel consumption, it was because of safety reasons (accidents).

The original Tu-144 didn't have wonderful range, though it was slightly faster than the Concord it used AB all the way.

In the 90s I believe it was NASA who hired a Tu-144LL and had NK-32 engines from the Blackjack installed and its performance was actually much more interesting.

Obviously now technology has moved on so composite materials and new titanium structures would dramatically reduce weight and improved design would reduce drag and increase flight performance... a new supersonic airliner would be much more efficient and effective.... the problem is that you can bet your ass if it is Russian then the west will mobilise against it... it will be single handedly creating holes in the Ozone while at the same time making glaziers melt all over the globe...

In a business world, where every second counts, in contrast to 70ies or 80ies....the price of tickets is not so important. If the CEO of a company can travel 7 hours faster, the company will pay a bit more for sure Wink And I can imagine a few rich arabs will buy the product too ;D

More money than you might think in Asia... China recently surpassed the US for number of Millionaires and Billionaires...

But if it is Russian you can expect the western media attack dogs to rip it every chance they get...

Personally I could care less... they have the Il-96... with PD-35 engines developed for the PAK DA programme will be an excellent aircraft... and its use in a PAK TA will be interesting too...

A flying wing PAK TA with conformal radar antenna elements fitted to its front and rear and sides could be used for AWACS and JSTARs roles and also as an inflight refuelling tanker and fire fighting aircraft as well as being a transport plane... there is plenty of scope for multipurpose development and design...

If Russia will build a civilian version of Tu-160 western journalist dickheads will cry about how outdated and useless such an aircraft would be. This sooo safe as the amen in the end of prayer!

New Tu-160M2 will receive new variant of Nk-32 with much better fuel consumption. It's like you wrote, a Tu-144 with newest Nk-32 would not only be beautiful, it would be efficient as well.

By the way to add...latest versions of Tu-144 and the modified one with Nk-32 were able to supercruise. As you wrote...better fuel consumption and longer range.

[quote="magnumcromagnon"]TsAGI posted this as recent as March 17th, 2020:

TsAGI continues to work on the "Flying Wing"

Looks awfully bad ,for a next gen bomb.. and doesn't look stealthy either..  i can see forums discussions
making fun of Russia military industry ,which is what putin likes.. to embarrass his nation creativity
in the military ,specially in the way they do planes. ,looks like Russia military is doing things the way they like it more to do it.. in the most laziest rudimentary way possible...to save time and money...  they should not bother at all doing a new bomber if this crap is what they planning to do . just remake the tu-160 with more fuel space and weapons space ,improve the engines power and build hundreds of them.. all those russian next gen bombers will be easily detected by AWACS like Boeing E-3 Sentry flying at high altitude from 2,000km away ,so it defy the purpose of making the plane stealthy at all..  this is why i have no hopes for pak-da.. should be cancelled and they focus in mig 41 they building and make it as awesome as possible..

this is why the perception of Russia will never go away of an outdated nation , they rarely push for
innovation and leadership in modern tech.. is like one US pilot interviewed told one time ,after flying
a mig-29.. russia build their planes in same way they do tanks.. with a hammer.. and not with high tech..
to make them simple and effective and elegance in their design is never even important.

Azi wrote:

kvs wrote:Modern civilian jets need super fuel efficiency for economic reasons.   I doubt that the Tu-160 can be reworked into a civilian
product.  Where are they going to fit the high-bypass turbofans?   The concept is from the 1960-70s Tu-144 era where fuel
consumption was not the first item on the list of priorities.  

A civilian Tu-160 would be like the Concorde some high priced boutique service.   But this business model is not viable as
demonstrated by the Concorde.

The flights of Tu-144 and Concorde were not suspendend because of fuel consumption, it was because of safety reasons (accidents).

The Tu-160 is a mature product with better engines, than in the 70ies. Of course it's a product only for a niche, but it's a shitload of advertisment for russian aircraft industry. They can create a product, that no other nation plan to build...that will impact the sale of other russian aircrafts positive.

In a business world, where every second counts, in contrast to 70ies or 80ies....the price of tickets is not so important. If the CEO of a company can travel 7 hours faster, the company will pay a bit more for sure And I can imagine a few rich arabs will buy the product too ;D

I have to disagree with your claim. Fuel costs are bar none the main item in the civilian air service sector. The Concorde did not have
an excessive accident rate by any stretch of the imagination. Thus that was not the reason it was discontinued. The last accident
where metal from another jet was sucked into the Concorde engines may have been used as an excuse, but it was not the real
reason. The typical ticket for a cross-Atlantic trip on the Concorde was $10,000. There are simply not enough people who
will pay such prices to make the market for the Concorde viable. Billionaires and triple figure millionaires do not use commercial
air anyway. Even CEOs hire private jet services.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

GarryB wrote:I am not sure some of these offshoot programmes will actually lead to anything... there were airliner versions and interceptor versions of the Tu-22M as well as the Tu-160... and none of them led to much... but the fact that they are thinking about commercialising their products is a good thing for Russia.

I think those never came to fruition because of Gordo-chov and Yelpsin....In fact the pussy Yelpsin didn't mind firing tank shells in to his own parliament, but the smelly vagina Yelpsin caved on threats by Boeing if they were to further develop IL-106. Thanks to Yelpsin there isn't a cost-competitive Russian (IL-106) airliner to compete on the open market....but we can all take solace that the fat slob Yelpsin is a rotting corpse pushing up daisies!

The good news is that Russia has reached a critical stage in disencumbering itself from Yeltsin era obligations to foreign bosses. The
last step is to change the constitution to remove the colonial deference to foreign legal bodies. Russian law should be primary and
this includes business arbitration. Covid-19 has diverted attention from this critical reform for the moment. But expect hysteria
on steroids in the coming months.

Vann7 wrote:this is why i have no hopes for pak-da.. should be cancelled

Just when i think Vann has plumbed the depths of human idiocy, he simply doubles down and goes even-fuller retard...