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PAK-DΑ: News #2

Gazputin

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Post n°26

PAK-DA

Gazputin Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:41 pm

I have no problem with Russia creating fascinating jobs for its young people - I applaud it
as a young person I'd love to work on a PAK-DA …..

and that nonsense about the Olympics being a waste of money - it was an integral part of a Tourism SEZ to develop the Black Sea and adjoining mountainous regions as recreational zones for beaches and skiing etc …. look it up
https://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01391/Russia-map-SEZs_1391177a.jpg

anyway back to the PAK-DA
…. I just came across this by accident …. its a year old
looks like a Northrop RQ-180 at Edwards AF base ….
wingspan around 130' ….. vs B2 of 170'

it does actually seem that this RQ-180 is an unmanned prototype for the B-21 …..
a refined 2-engined B-2 …..

https://theaviationist.com/2018/08/24/whats-this-mysterious-aircraft-spotted-at-edwards-afb-the-secretive-b-21-raider-the-rq-180-drone-or-just-a-b-2/

B-21 looks a low risk refinement of the B-2 …. with 2 engines and wingspan of around 130'
( so they can afford to build 100 …. this time)
it will almost certainly use 2x F-22 engines …. and use the GE variable cycle engine later for better endurance

surely the PAK-DA will replace the Tu-95
which has always looked like a giant flying wing to me …. with a big bomb bay bolted to it ….
Tu-95 wingspan 165' …..

similar wingspans keep popping up don't they …..
PAK-DA ???? …. 150' ?

GarryB

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Post n°27

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

GarryB Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:37 am

They have said the PAK DA has two main roles, strategic cruise missile carrier, and theatre heavy bomber... the former to replace the Bear, and the latter to replace the Backfire.

The Bears need replacing first but are the cheapest component of the Russian strategic bombing force because they don't burn enormous amounts of fuel like the Blackjack does or can.

The Russians are certainly looking at supersonic strategic bombers... the Tu-160M2 is that.

A subsonic large long range flying wing design with enormous internal weapon and fuel capacity means supersonic flight would be almost impossible because the thickness of the wing needed to carry those weapons internally and all that fuel as well means it is going to be very thick... which is fine... it will still be stealthy and very low drag, with lots of room for fuel and weapons.

Vann7

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Post n°28

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

Vann7 Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:41 pm

GarryB wrote:They have said the PAK DA has two main roles, strategic cruise missile carrier, and theatre heavy bomber... the former to replace the Bear, and the latter to replace the Backfire.

The Bears need replacing first but are the cheapest component of the Russian strategic bombing force because they don't burn enormous amounts of fuel like the Blackjack does or can.

The Russians are certainly looking at supersonic strategic bombers... the Tu-160M2 is that.

A subsonic large long range flying wing design with enormous internal weapon and fuel capacity means supersonic flight would be almost impossible because the thickness of the wing needed to carry those weapons internally and all that fuel as well means it is going to be very thick... which is fine... it will still be stealthy and very low drag, with lots of room for fuel and weapons.

I don't see how PAK-DA can replace the bear..
The Bear is already in service , while PAK_DA is a 2027 plane..
Bear can do the job well , of deterrence.. You send a couple of dozen bear ,armed with hypersonic nukes ,flying all the time over international airspace ,(near US manhattan island) , and this will allow Russia to position nuclear armed guided missiles withing 3-5 minutes of US most important decision centers , Pentagon ,CIA ,Congress and White house.
With good intelligence , Russia couold use those Bear bombers to decapitate the leadership of US and most important military bases.. and provoke a total civil war in the entire nation..
after no leadership in place.

So Old soviet bombers ,still have a place in Russia military , this is why they continue using them.. They have about a hundred of them.. and they could become very lethal weapons for any NATO battleship formation if armed with hypersonic nukes..

Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°29

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

Rodion_Romanovic Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:36 pm

Yes, but they are not building new tu-95.
They will anyway operate together for a long time.

The USAF is planning to fly the b52 (upgraded with different engines) until 2050, and b52 airframes are older than most of the Tu-95 currently in service with the Russian Air Force.

Also the backfires are excellent airplanes, and they are being upgraded.

I believe that the Syrian operation showed also the capabilities of the backfire, and not always combining more roles into the same airplane is the best idea, or even the less.expensive.

The tu-95 and the tu-160 also partecipated to the Syrian campaign, both for their "baptism of fire" and to test them in "real" conditions, but they "onlyl fired expensive cruise missiles.

In addition the backfire could carry several hypersonic antiship missiles, and it is not clear if this capability could be maintained by other airplanes (tu160 are too expensive and few in number and have a strategic role, and the mig-31K carry only one missile).

We will see later if the PAK-DA will replace both the bear and the backfire, or if they will end up with a replacement for the Tu-22M to sit in size between the su-34M and the PAK-DA

Gazputin

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Post n°30

Tu-95

Gazputin Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:28 pm

I wasn't trying to say dump the Tu-95 - I was complimenting it by saying if you look at it in plan shape …. it is essentially a flying wing
maybe I should have worded it better

On the Tu-95 if you look at those long landing gear pods on the back of the inboard engines …. if you removed the long fuselage and nose and filled in the area near the pods - you have a flying wing as they look today …. with wide tricycle undercarriage

they'll probably get another 20 yrs out of them …. what "crew comfort" is like is anyone's guess …

I'd think the Su-34 with variable cycle engines will eventually replace the Tu-22s ….
and they'll be complemented by Su-70 … with the same variable cycle engine
and they'll both be built at NAPO … your "medium loiter" factory site …

Su-70 is your medium range subsonic loitering flying wing
Su-34 is your supersonic capable medium range loitering aircraft

and the PAK-DA is the long-range subsonic "new flying wing" to replace the current "flying wing" … the Tu-95 ….
and your Tu-160 can loiter via variable wings and can make supersonic dashes if required

that would make pragmatic sense to me …. that is how Russian brains work …. they are pragmatists

ie most of your loitering roles will be covered by subsonic flying wings as they are very fuel efficient …. just as the Tu-95 is

I was trying to get a discussion going on the probably wingspan of the PAK-DA
I was saying its interesting that most of the long range aircraft around have wingspans of around 170'
and the Americans are apparently going down to 130' with the B-21 - aerodynamically more efficient wing profiles ?

Isos

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Post n°31

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

Isos Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:42 pm

With the missiles getting their range increased to more than 4000km, pak da or tu-95 doesn't change anything. They could even use il 96 for that matter.

GarryB

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Post n°32

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

GarryB Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:37 am

If they build 50-60 Tu-160M2s and upgrade the existing 10-12 models to the same standard and they build PAK DA... how many Bears will they require in service?

The PAK DA wont be cheap to buy, but its size means internal access to equipment and systems so it should be easier to maintain than stealth fighters because you don't have to remove RAM to remove panels and then reapply RAM and let it cure before you can get airborne again.

Also with modern electronics with fault finding capability it can probably locate problems itself and with modern efficient turbofans it should be cheap to run too, why not replace the Bears in the strategic role?

Obviously the Russians aren't in the same boat as the Americans... the Bears were made in the late 1980s and early 1990s and are very young airframes, whereas the B-52s were built in the 50s and 60s...

Viktor

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Post n°33

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

Viktor Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:38 am

Given the fact that all we know so far about the PAK-DA comes from commentators here is another one revealing few more puzzles about the bomber.

- 15000 km range
- supersonic speed
- 145t full load
- ability to launch spacecrafts

and I should add

... ability to sneak in to the US carriers
... ability to penetrate soft belly of the US
... ability to provide cover for the Russian boomers from surface threat
... ability to take off US ground based EW radar
... it can strike without warning unnoticed, strike strong or with efficient accuracy, it can strike deep keeping entire EU in check making circles around it and will most likely act in conjuction with Liana satellite constellation.

its like a Perun axe of justice that can split the country apart

retired colonel Viktor Baranets

"This machine is not a development of the previous ones - it is a fundamentally new model that is actually being done from scratch. All the best that our aircraft manufacturing military field has developed today will be implemented in this aircraft. The highest demands are made on it. It will fly at supersonic speed at a range of 15 thousand kilometers (so far no plane in the world has such a range yet), it will use all types of missiles and bombs that are currently in service with the Russian army, it can even be a platform for OSCAL satellites. I would like to draw attention to the orientation of the electronic system, navigation, weapons control. The machine is not easy, it is in full gear, with a maximum load will weigh 145 tons. It is noteworthy,

https://radiosputnik.ria.ru/20190812/1557399678.html

dino00

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Post n°34

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

dino00 Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:09 pm

I don't believe. Or he made an mistake or the media did.

Azi

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Post n°35

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

Azi Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:42 pm

dino00 wrote:I don't believe. Or he made an mistake or the media did.

It's not complete unrealistic...

Compare with the datasheet of the B-2 bomber:

Range: 18.000 km (without weapons), with weapons ~12.000 km (Hi-Hi-Hi profile)
Full load: 153 t
Speed: Subsonic (1010 km/h high altitude)

And I should add...it can do everything, because it's a Murican Wunderwaffe! pwnd

The only big question is....subsonic or supersonic!? Normal flying wing designs are subsonic, but Su S-70 proves that supersonic is not that problem, especially if it's not a true flying wing design and has a tail. We will see...

The data above makes sense, because PAK-DA should be a bit smaller and lighter than a B-2 (but only a bit!) and should have better engines. But I really doubt that some "experts" have any data available now!

PAK-DA is a big secret for now! dunno

GarryB

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Post n°36

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

GarryB Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:09 pm

Well that is interesting... with thrust vectoring engines able to compensate for the shift in cg in the transition from subsonic to transonic to supersonic speed (normal supersonic planes have all moving horizontal tail surfaces to enable supersonic flight, but thrust vectoring engines should allow any aircraft to do the same...) then it could be possible for it to be supersonic... but it wont be high supersonic...

I suspect with a flying wing design they are going for super cruising performance, which should be achievable with the right engine design and the very low drag shape of a flying wing aircraft.

As I have said the wing profile of a strategic flying wing will be thick to hold all that fuel and those internal weapons, but by making the wing bigger and broader with the right wing sweep they might be able to make it able to fly at low supersonic speeds in dry thrust.

Remember flight speed is about drag and not power to weight ratio... a MiG-31 is a heavy aircraft but its huge engines don't give it a high power to weight ratio... but high power to weight ratio is what is needed for acceleration... not top speed...

The PD-35 is being developed for large heavy aircraft in Russia and they are using a variant for the PAK DA... now a high bypass turbofan generates a lot of its power from the cold bypass air being blown through the engine by the large front fans... the excess of cold air going through makes an after burner more effective because it is oxygen rich... it has not had fuel burned in it yet.

A medium or low bypass version of the PD-35 could have an afterburner added to accelerate the aircraft to supersonic speeds and then throttle back out of AB to maintain supersonic flight in dry thrust... that would greatly extend flight range and mean the long range of the aircraft is covered much faster... flying at mach 1.5 or 1.6 would make it almost impossible for F-35s to intercept it simply because operationally they would never fly at such speeds anyway.

Keeping in mind that by the time even a supersonic bomber gets to the US ICBMs and SLBMs will have already destroyed most of the air defences and major cities anyway.

It would be interesting too because in the space of a 2 ton 5,000km range cruise missile you could probably carry 10 decent sized nuclear bombs, so delivering bombs you could hit more targets... and with modern glide kits you wont have to overfly the targets either.

An interesting interview... should be interesting to see what it turns out like when it gets into service.

hoom

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Post n°37

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

hoom Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:57 am

I still want to believe its a modernised & stealthed version of T-4MS config angel

SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°38

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

SeigSoloyvov Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:16 am

GarryB wrote:If they build 50-60 Tu-160M2s and upgrade the existing 10-12 models to the same standard and they build PAK DA... how many Bears will they require in service?

The PAK DA wont be cheap to buy, but its size means internal access to equipment and systems so it should be easier to maintain than stealth fighters because you don't have to remove RAM to remove panels and then reapply RAM and let it cure before you can get airborne again.

Also with modern electronics with fault finding capability it can probably locate problems itself and with modern efficient turbofans it should be cheap to run too, why not replace the Bears in the strategic role?

Obviously the Russians aren't in the same boat as the Americans... the Bears were made in the late 1980s and early 1990s and are very young airframes, whereas the B-52s were built in the 50s and 60s...

If they have 70 something 160's none, they wouldn't need the Bears at that point.

Our B-52's may have old frames but on the inside are high tech, the one on active service we have overhauled them and replaced engines after their life span is gone.

We also have our B1-Lancers however which the first one was introduced in 1986 we have around 100 of those.

hoom

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Post n°39

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

hoom Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:14 pm

B1s were converted to conventional only.

GarryB

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Post n°40

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

GarryB Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:40 am

I still want to believe its a modernised & stealthed version of T-4MS config

Well that is an interesting proposition... most of the time fanboys post images of the T-4MS as the PAK DA because they don't realise that it was part of the competition that the White Swan won... it is like saying the replacement for the F-22 will be the YF-23...

Having said that the main reason that 20 years ago I would have said no chance regarding the T-4MS is because it has a swing wing design that would require an enormous titanium structure for the swing wing mechanism to be mounted in... and at the same time I would say the forge that created the huge one piece titanium box structure for the swing wing on the White Swan is in the Ukraine and unable to do the job now anyway so the chances of making more White Swans or a T-4MS would be zero.

Now that they have developed a forge to build White Swans... they could probably make T-4MS type aircraft that are basically lifting body aircraft with swing wings that could be supersonic.

The problem there is that the White Swan is expensive to run because of its big powerful engines... it has twice the engine power of the B-1B, and a T-4MS would also need big powerful turbojet engines or low bypass turbofans.

Easing back the speed requirement to supercruise potential rather than mach 2 plus speed potential could reduce the engine power needed and with swing wings make supercruise much more achievable without needing too much horsepower... too much horsepower means shortened range and more fuel and less payload...

If they have 70 something 160's none, they wouldn't need the Bears at that point.

The plan is a mix of supersonic White Swans cruise missile carrier, with a subsonic theatre bomber and subsonic strategic cruise missile carrier. AFAIK.

Our B-52's may have old frames but on the inside are high tech, the one on active service we have overhauled them and replaced engines after their life span is gone.

They are older than the fathers of their pilots most of the time these days...

Gazputin

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Post n°41

agree

Gazputin Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:07 am

Supersonic Tu-160s … + subsonic PAK-DAs
thing is ? what is the range of an atmospheric hypersonic profiled missile ?

and does it matter with 2 options ….. who cares ?
I'd do the exact above ..
and lets face it PAK-DAs will eventually replace Tu-95s … its inevitable

and as I said Tu-22 will be replaced by Su-34 and Ukhotniks …. also inevitable
you simply can't support so many different airframes ….
Ukhotnik replaces Tu-22 ….. and some Su-34s

PAK-DA replaces Tu-95 …..

seems very "Russian" to me … anyway 10 yrs off ….. 7-8 if you are lucky

SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°42

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

SeigSoloyvov Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:59 am

Again just the frames, electronics and engines are brand new.

How typical of you throwing a baseless insult, Grow up.

Russians and the US both retire their pilots at nearly the same ages.

Gazputin

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Post n°43

interesting PPT presentation

Gazputin Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:02 pm

I can see the name PAK-DA in the bottom left hand corner …. for new PD-20 engine
so they are thinking high bypass type civil engine … ie for good cruise economy

http://www.rusaviainsider.com/russias-united-engines-reveals-weight-sino-russian-cr929/

2x PD-20s …. what's that an aircraft 1/3 heavier than an MC-21 ….
interesting ….

what's that ? …. MC-21 max takeoff 80,000 kgs

PAK-DA ….. hmmmm bit over 100,000 kgs ?
with 2 engines …

200,000 with 4 ….. B-2 max takeoff 170,000 kgs ….. unlikely to be bigger than B-2 ….

B-21 apparently 1/3 smaller than B-2 = bit over 100,000 kgs

sounds about right ….. my money says its going to be like B-21 …. 1/3 smaller than B-2
using high bypass commercial style engines for good cruise economy …. so it will have a chubby body ….
you can sketch it out in your head - wingspan around 130 feet …. depth of fuselage to fit engines ...

think my numbers are right ….? got a glass of red helping me here …. lol

magnumcromagnon

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Post n°44

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

magnumcromagnon Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:43 pm

Looks like PAK-DA is ahead of schedule by 5 years. Originally the first prototype was set to be revealed in 2026-27, now its jumped up 5 years to being 2021-22:

In Russia, the production of the missile carrier PAK DA

Russian enterprises have begun production of the promising missile carrier PAK DA.

- The Ministry of Defense approved all the technical requirements for the aircraft. Work on the creation of PAK YES has been deployed in a timely manner at Tupolev and at cooperative enterprises, Denis Manturov, head of the RF Ministry of Industry and Trade, told Interfax.

The new bomber-missile carrier will replace the current family of long-range aircraft in the troops: Tu-22M, Tu-95 and Tu-160. PAK DA is designed according to the “flying wing” scheme using stealth technologies. It will be subsonic, the main purpose of the aircraft will be delivery to the launch point of a rocket with artificial intelligence. Depending on the tactical situation, the ammunition will determine when, where, and on what route to fly.

The engine for PAK DA is created by the United Engine Corporation. According to open data, the power plant will provide traction 23 ton-force.

Tests of the missile carrier will be held at the Tupolev base near Moscow in Zhukovsky. Earlier, the head of PJSC "Tupolev" Alexander Konyukhov said that the rolling out of the prototype is scheduled for 2021-2022.

https://vpk.name/news/317381_v_rossii_nachalos_proizvodstvo_raketonosca_pak_da.html

dino00

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Post n°45

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

dino00 Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:02 pm

magnumcromagnon wrote:Looks like PAK-DA is ahead of schedule by 5 years. Originally the first prototype was set to be revealed in 2026-27, now its jumped up 5 years to being 2021-22:

In Russia, the production of the missile carrier PAK DA

Russian enterprises have begun production of the promising missile carrier PAK DA.

- The Ministry of Defense approved all the technical requirements for the aircraft. Work on the creation of PAK YES has been deployed in a timely manner at Tupolev and at cooperative enterprises, Denis Manturov, head of the RF Ministry of Industry and Trade, told Interfax.

The new bomber-missile carrier will replace the current family of long-range aircraft in the troops: Tu-22M, Tu-95 and Tu-160. PAK DA is designed according to the “flying wing” scheme using stealth technologies. It will be subsonic, the main purpose of the aircraft will be delivery to the launch point of a rocket with artificial intelligence. Depending on the tactical situation, the ammunition will determine when, where, and on what route to fly.

The engine for PAK DA is created by the United Engine Corporation. According to open data, the power plant will provide traction 23 ton-force.

Tests of the missile carrier will be held at the Tupolev base near Moscow in Zhukovsky. Earlier, the head of PJSC "Tupolev" Alexander Konyukhov said that the rolling out of the prototype is scheduled for 2021-2022.

https://vpk.name/news/317381_v_rossii_nachalos_proizvodstvo_raketonosca_pak_da.html

Don't believe.

Between 2023-2026 first flight is more in line with the expected date.

GarryB

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Post n°46

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

GarryB Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:12 am

and as I said Tu-22 will be replaced by Su-34 and Ukhotniks …. also inevitable
you simply can't support so many different airframes ….
Ukhotnik replaces Tu-22 ….. and some Su-34s

PAK-DA replaces Tu-95 …..

Su-34 really don't have the range or payload capacity to replace the Tu-22Ms... the current upgrade variant of the Tu-22M3M has reintroduced inflight refuelling capacity so I suspect even the Backfire hasn't got enough range for them, so the Su-34 with external weapons wont have either.

I rather suspect the PAK DA will be designed to carry a heavy conventional bomb payload with inflight refuelling capacity and large internal fuel capacity for the theatre bombing role from Russia to target and back... much like the US uses the B-2 sometimes.

The drones might be used with the PAK DA or in some more dangerous missions instead of them, but I don't think they would actually replace anything for a while.

I can see the name PAK-DA in the bottom left hand corner …. for new PD-20 engine
so they are thinking high bypass type civil engine … ie for good cruise economy

The arrow from the PD-20 engine points to the PAK VTA future transport aircraft... not to the PAK DA.

think my numbers are right ….? got a glass of red helping me here …. lol

Hindering I think... the arrow from the PD-20 engine does not point to the PAK DA.

Looks like PAK-DA is ahead of schedule by 5 years. Originally the first prototype was set to be revealed in 2026-27, now its jumped up 5 years to being 2021-22:

That image is based on fan art from the period when it was believed that Sukhoi would lead the PAK DA programme instead of Tupolev.

It is clearly based on the nose of the unstealthy Su-34 which makes no sense at all...

Gazputin

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Post n°47

PAK-DA

Gazputin Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:39 am

well the slide has the words in Russian for PAK_DA … in a white rectangle
if you think they just randomly put the name on the slide … that's up to you

that 2021 Zhukovsky thing
they would have done a lot of wind tunnel testing by now … with scale models
next stage is "stealth" testing
thing is with stealth …. can you use a scale model ? won't you have problems re short wavelengths vs your model unless its full size ?
Tupolev may well be part way through building a full size mockup … probably what the article is talking about

interesting question …. do you need a full size model/mockup to get a truly accurate reading ?
sure they'd have software that predicts the result …
but I suspect there's really only one way to really know if you have it right … build a full size model ?

thegopnik

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Post n°48

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

thegopnik Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:01 pm

"the main purpose of the aircraft will be delivery to the launch point of a rocket with artificial intelligence. Depending on the tactical situation, the ammunition will determine when, where, and on what route to fly"

This is one of the most interesting quotes that I liked about the article. This means that not only are they designing it to be difficult to be picked up by radar but difficult for passive sensors or RWRs to pick up the aircraft. Missiles can make decisions and not the aircraft. Say for example you are tasked as a pilot to strike a PACS-4 from 2000kms away. You got a pre-programmed map of the location of where the SAMs can be. You fly to the destination and are about 500kms away so far your presence on radar or passive sensors have not picked you up or know that you are there. You launch the missile from 500kms away as its traveling or using radar horizon to not be seen lets say it gets picked up by radar about 100kms away your missile like other missiles comes with dual homing which can use passive homing or active homing by using its own host radar. Russians have a an antiship missile that can self home to targets from 50kms lets say this missile is equipped with FICs or a photonic radar and the Chinese claim of lowering the noise 100 times by using lasers to stabilize signals to hear the received signal better happens to be true this means that this missiles self homing range increases significantly. The previous location of the PACS-4 is still stuck in its brain. Its FICS host radar can probably see the SAM from 100kms away or follow its RF emissions. PACS-4 decides to turn off its emissions and use a decoy emitter from a different location. Since the missile has artificial intelligence this irregularity will be noticed in fact it can ignore the decoy source as the missile closes in and lets say its host radar cannot still pick up the PACS-4 but that it eventually would when its closer. Now the next countermeasure is to use a jamming source to suppress the host radar of the missile and try to immediately move the PACS-4 radar away. The missile with its brain is going to make a decision such as how far has it travelled passed 100kms since the PACS-4 has turned off its radar to use a decoy emitter or use a jamming source to suppress its signal. Is the jamming source getting stronger or weaker? Such as if its getting weaker than the host radar will continue to follow its original path to the PACS-4 radar. If the signal is getting stronger further suppressing the host radar and the PACS-4 radar is already currently on the move. The passive sensor on the missile will give the estimates of the strength of the jamming signal and even determine just how far it is. The missile realizes that the jamming source is too strong because it is in a close location and that the target can get away in enough time. It will now follow the jamming source. The missile is following the jamming source and there happens to be another jamming source to move the missile away from the previous jamming source. Than the other jamming source will weaken its signals than another jamming source or the previous jamming source will try to move the missile away again sort of like playing monkey in the middle. Since the missile has a brain it will follow the previous jammer because its smart enough to know that the other jamming source is trying to waste its range and if that current jamming source decides to turn its self off than its own host radar will have enough range to go pick up the EW system's location. Now if the jamming signals were too strong when the missile was previously trying to target the PACS-4 radar and its brain can calculate just how far its travelled lets say its now 20kms away. It can make the decision to either follow the jamming source or continue its path to the PACS-4 radar. So even if the jamming signal is getting stronger as it is 20kms away it can calculate just how strong the jamming source can get as it is getting closer to the PACS-4 radar and if its calculation says that its host radar would be strong enough to track the PACS-4 radar or have the SAR resolution to see the missile defense from 10kms away than it can continue to ignore the jamming source.

This is the biggest importance of what AI on missiles can bring. Aircrafts can have immediate pre-programmed maps of where to go and how far to travel to launch its missiles. If there happens to be hostile aircrafts the bomber will pick it up on its receivers than head back to its location. However current missiles rely on GPS this means it will get picked up immediately or if the aircraft uses GPS. Aircraft using its SAR or radar for ground targets will need to keep this information updated to the missile until the missile is able to use its own sensors which would further endanger the aircraft and give the location of the missile along with the aircraft away from 500kms instead of 100km for example. But if the missiles location is given away from 100kms the aircrafts location wont be compromised(by either enemy radar or passive sensors) as it has never sent any update signals to the missile about the targets location.

This information is big news to me from the article so thanks for posting it.

George1

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Post n°49

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

George1 Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:05 pm

magnumcromagnon wrote:Looks like PAK-DA is ahead of schedule by 5 years. Originally the first prototype was set to be revealed in 2026-27, now its jumped up 5 years to being 2021-22:

In Russia, the production of the missile carrier PAK DA

Russian enterprises have begun production of the promising missile carrier PAK DA.

- The Ministry of Defense approved all the technical requirements for the aircraft. Work on the creation of PAK YES has been deployed in a timely manner at Tupolev and at cooperative enterprises, Denis Manturov, head of the RF Ministry of Industry and Trade, told Interfax.

The new bomber-missile carrier will replace the current family of long-range aircraft in the troops: Tu-22M, Tu-95 and Tu-160. PAK DA is designed according to the “flying wing” scheme using stealth technologies. It will be subsonic, the main purpose of the aircraft will be delivery to the launch point of a rocket with artificial intelligence. Depending on the tactical situation, the ammunition will determine when, where, and on what route to fly.

The engine for PAK DA is created by the United Engine Corporation. According to open data, the power plant will provide traction 23 ton-force.

Tests of the missile carrier will be held at the Tupolev base near Moscow in Zhukovsky. Earlier, the head of PJSC "Tupolev" Alexander Konyukhov said that the rolling out of the prototype is scheduled for 2021-2022.

https://vpk.name/news/317381_v_rossii_nachalos_proizvodstvo_raketonosca_pak_da.html

It looks like an extended PAK-FA" Very Happy

GarryB

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Post n°50

Re: PAK-DΑ: News #2

GarryB Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:38 pm

well the slide has the words in Russian for PAK_DA … in a white rectangle
if you think they just randomly put the name on the slide … that's up to you

The name is there because it has already been made public that the PD-35 engine is largely based on a new core based on the NK-32 used currently by the White Swan and will be the basis for a range of new engines with a PD designation scaled to different purposes.

It makes sense to include the PAK DA in the range of aircraft using these engines but they clearly don't want to reveal any details about the PAK DA like weight range or specific engine type... the people making the graphic probably don't even know yet.

They are just trying to sell engines.

[quotethat 2021 Zhukovsky thing
they would have done a lot of wind tunnel testing by now … with scale models
next stage is "stealth" testing
thing is with stealth …. can you use a scale model ? won't you have problems re short wavelengths vs your model unless its full size ?
Tupolev may well be part way through building a full size mockup … probably what the article is talking about

interesting question …. do you need a full size model/mockup to get a truly accurate reading ?
sure they'd have software that predicts the result …
but I suspect there's really only one way to really know if you have it right … build a full size model ?[/quote]

They will have super computer models for testing thousands of different major and minor shape variations a week and probably the top four or maybe five they might build as scale models to put in to wind tunnels... there is no point in achieving perfect stealth if the damn thing wont fly... this thing will be in the air for the better part of a whole day much of the time.

We already know they have test facilities where they can hang full scale models in front of actual in service radars and sensors to create maps of radar cross sections and IR signatures, which they will likely use for models of the test items they are developing... but materials has as much effect as shape... for instance there is no point in using a model for RCS measuring if the real craft is made of composite materials that are radar transparent like the nosecone where the radar is located. The external shape of the nosecone wont simulate the actual aircraft if its nosecone is radar transparent for instance.

It looks like an extended PAK-FA

Looks to me like an Su-34 nose was stuck on the front of a B-2, which is highly unlikely because the Su-34 was never intended to be stealthy anyway...

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PAK-DA

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Tu-95

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agree

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interesting PPT presentation

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PAK-DA

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