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Displacement will be 11.000 tons. Yassen-M: 13.500 tons.
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36 posters
5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine
Hole- Posts : 9674
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PapaDragon- Posts : 13094
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Azi wrote:....It will have VLS !Exactly! You can see it because the shape in this part is more angular above and not round, as it should be without VLS.Dima wrote: VLS are probably behind the sail aft of the 2nd hatch.
Some versions will have VLS
One in the photo doesn't have it
Isos wrote:You can guess its size thanks to its sail. I would say some 105-110m. Yasen is 120m.
Also, that sail it taken straight off Borei-A SSBN
Hole wrote:Displacement will be 11.000 tons. Yassen-M: 13.500 tons.
That ain't much of a difference
Isos
Isos- Posts : 11001
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Some versions will have VLS
One in the photo doesn't have it
They already have 10 borei on order as SSBN and 9 Yasen and 9 oscar modernized as SSGN. Which is enough.
They need only the SSN version of Husky right now which is the one on the picture.
That ain't much of a difference
It looks "big" which could suggest double hull design. Yasen is a single hull if I'm not wrong. That would explain the weight being similar for less capacity.
Hole- Posts : 9674
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Yasen is partly single-hull and partly double-hull.
Dima- Posts : 1218
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I mean, if the displayed model is the actual design, then the most probable place for VLS is behind those hatch we see aft of the sail. I cannot see with clarity a VLS on that model due to lighting and other issues, but can see sort of bulge in the aft section of the hull (top and bottom) in that video grab. That's why I used the model displayed at ARMY 2017 to suggest how a VLS section is likely to be on the new sub.Azi wrote:Exactly! You can see it because the shape in this part is more angular above and not round, as it should be without VLS.
JohninMK- Posts : 13355
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Husky_SSN
Mon 30 December 2019
By H I Sutton
Updated, originally posted April-1 2017.
HUSKY / Pr.585 Laika: Russia's Next Generation Attack Submarine
Flag Russia has formally begun work on its next generation HUSKY Class (Хаски) attack submarine (SSN). The type is expected to to replace the AKULA and SIERRA Classes as a lower-cost complement to the Yasen (SEVERODVINSK) class SSGN. A Russian TV news broadcast from December 24 (https://www.1tv.ru/news/issue/2019-12-24/18:00#1) gave a new glimpse of the Project 585 'Laika' design which, logically, is the actual HUSKY design.
http://www.hisutton.com/Husky_SSN.html
GarryB- Posts : 37261
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So in a way it is a bit like a smaller lighter attack sub to be made at the same time as the larger cruise missile carrying standard attack subs.
I would say it was the Alpha of its generation but the Alpha certainly wasn't cheap...
Makes sense to develop a smaller lighter but capable vessel to replace older types...
It is a bit like the Lada replacing the Kilo... the Kilo is a good sub, but the Lada class has a similar armament and a much smaller crew and is quite a bit smaller and lighter, but with better more modern sensors and equipment.
I would say it was the Alpha of its generation but the Alpha certainly wasn't cheap...
Makes sense to develop a smaller lighter but capable vessel to replace older types...
It is a bit like the Lada replacing the Kilo... the Kilo is a good sub, but the Lada class has a similar armament and a much smaller crew and is quite a bit smaller and lighter, but with better more modern sensors and equipment.
kvs- Posts : 14509
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A smaller size makes sense for an attack sub and it makes it quieter as well. Large submarine hulls undergo all sort of oscillation modes that can be picked up
by VLBI arrays. A smaller frame can be made stiffer and will naturally oscillate less. Modern munitions have enabled smaller ships to have the fire power
of massive WWII boats. A lot of the naval design exhibits legacy thinking which gradually fades with time. The Laika is a rational evolution of attack submarine
design.
by VLBI arrays. A smaller frame can be made stiffer and will naturally oscillate less. Modern munitions have enabled smaller ships to have the fire power
of massive WWII boats. A lot of the naval design exhibits legacy thinking which gradually fades with time. The Laika is a rational evolution of attack submarine
design.
hoom- Posts : 2353
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Interesting.
Charly015 take https://charly015.blogspot.com/2020/01/primer-acercamiento-al-nuevo-submarino.html
Given the quoted displacement I'm not convinced he's got the scaling right here
If he's right I like it though, a smaller & cheaper class is what Russia needs.
Also a side shot of the model
Charly015 take https://charly015.blogspot.com/2020/01/primer-acercamiento-al-nuevo-submarino.html
Given the quoted displacement I'm not convinced he's got the scaling right here
If he's right I like it though, a smaller & cheaper class is what Russia needs.
Also a side shot of the model
Last edited by hoom on Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Isos- Posts : 11001
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I calculated 77m with such scale. Not realistic.
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4355
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Isos wrote:I calculated 77m with such scale. Not realistic.
I'd expect the Husky to be extensively automated to minimise the crew size, and this would allow a reduction in boat size - consider the Pr 705 Lira Class (Alfa) which had an all-officer crew numbering only 31. If the Soviets could build such boats in the late 1960s, why the heck couldn't the Russians improve on the automation levels in the 2020s? (the Yasen is claimed to have a complement of only 64, compared the Seawolf/Virginia at 140/135).
Isos- Posts : 11001
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Automatisation makes the sub very expensive.
kvs- Posts : 14509
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Big_Gazza wrote:Isos wrote:I calculated 77m with such scale. Not realistic.
I'd expect the Husky to be extensively automated to minimise the crew size, and this would allow a reduction in boat size - consider the Pr 705 Lira Class (Alfa) which had an all-officer crew numbering only 31. If the Soviets could build such boats in the late 1960s, why the heck couldn't the Russians improve on the automation levels in the 2020s? (the Yasen is claimed to have a complement of only 64, compared the Seawolf/Virginia at 140/135).
Indeed. Modern submarines have no excuse for such overuse of human resources. I doubt that the 705 boats had the desired level of automation systems reliability
and that is why Russia is not running 10 man boats today. But the electronics and design concepts have advanced over the last 50 years so it is time to get back
on track.
kvs- Posts : 14509
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Isos wrote:Automatisation makes the sub very expensive.
Since we are not dealing with the profiteering civilian economy this is not true. There is no boutique pricing. So if you are going
to spend 10 years designing a submarine, may as well do it right. Today there is no need to build some industry from scratch to
automate systems.
However, reliability is another issue as we see with the F-35. Software engineering is lame since it is full of lame programmers.
Even the Pentagon can't outsource the work to coders who would do the job right.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13094
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Isos wrote:Automatisation makes the sub very expensive.
No it doesn't
Alpha-class wasn't expensive
It was complicated for maintenance due to reactor type but that was 50 years ago
Use proper reactor and up to date components and no problem
GarryB- Posts : 37261
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And the comparison with conventional boats... the Kilo class has 52 crew and the Lada class with a similar armament and reduced displacement a crew of 36 and is about 600 tons lighter...
Agree and disagree... the Alpha was expensive, but more the exotic liquid metal reactor and the titanium hull... the automation actually made it cheaper to operate...
Soviet subs were traditionally more automated than their western equivalents, but that didn't make them more expensive per say.
Soviet and Russian tanks are also more automated with an automatic loader for the main gun round being pretty standard... over the life time of the tank I would suggest it doesn't make them more expensive.
No it doesn't
Alpha-class wasn't expensive
Agree and disagree... the Alpha was expensive, but more the exotic liquid metal reactor and the titanium hull... the automation actually made it cheaper to operate...
Automatisation makes the sub very expensive.
Soviet subs were traditionally more automated than their western equivalents, but that didn't make them more expensive per say.
Soviet and Russian tanks are also more automated with an automatic loader for the main gun round being pretty standard... over the life time of the tank I would suggest it doesn't make them more expensive.
hoom- Posts : 2353
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Problem is the plaque says 11ktons.I'd expect the Husky to be extensively automated to minimise the crew size, and this would allow a reduction in boat size
JohninMK- Posts : 13355
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Comprehensive article by Sutton carried by Naval News three days ago. These are the first two paras and a couple from later in the article about rivalry and non use of the other's design elements re Rubin and Malachite.
The Project 545 ‘Laika’ was first revealed in the background of a media report on a Russian defense exhibition in December. Although it has not been officially confirmed the new design is likely to be the next generation Russian attack submarine project known as Husky. The name Laika refers to a breed of Siberian hunting dog very similar to the husky.
The type follows on from the Pr.885/885M Severodvinsk-class cruise missile submarines (SSGN). But it is not a straightforward successor. Instead, it is the cheaper little brother, intended as a replacement for existing attack submarines. As the Severodvinsk-class (also known as Yasen-class) replaces the Oscar-II SSGNs, Laika will replace the Akula and Sierra classes.
............................................................
Laika is from the same design bureau as the Severodvinsk-class, which shows. An interesting aspect is that Russia has two bureaus in charge of designing submarines: Rubin and Malachite. There does not seem to be any love lost between them. A third, Lazurit, was a victim of the post Cold War ‘peace dividend’ and is no longer in the submarine game. Although they have tried to get back, which would make things more interesting.
So with the Laika, Malachite has cornered the attack submarine market in Russia for the foreseeable future. And separately the deep diving midget submarine sector. Meanwhile Rubin is dominant for strategic deterrent submarines, underwater robots (autonomous underwater vehicles – AUVs) and non-nuclear submarines. This manifests itself in interesting ways in the design of the Laika.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/02/inside-russias-laika-next-generation-attack-submarine/
The Project 545 ‘Laika’ was first revealed in the background of a media report on a Russian defense exhibition in December. Although it has not been officially confirmed the new design is likely to be the next generation Russian attack submarine project known as Husky. The name Laika refers to a breed of Siberian hunting dog very similar to the husky.
The type follows on from the Pr.885/885M Severodvinsk-class cruise missile submarines (SSGN). But it is not a straightforward successor. Instead, it is the cheaper little brother, intended as a replacement for existing attack submarines. As the Severodvinsk-class (also known as Yasen-class) replaces the Oscar-II SSGNs, Laika will replace the Akula and Sierra classes.
............................................................
Laika is from the same design bureau as the Severodvinsk-class, which shows. An interesting aspect is that Russia has two bureaus in charge of designing submarines: Rubin and Malachite. There does not seem to be any love lost between them. A third, Lazurit, was a victim of the post Cold War ‘peace dividend’ and is no longer in the submarine game. Although they have tried to get back, which would make things more interesting.
So with the Laika, Malachite has cornered the attack submarine market in Russia for the foreseeable future. And separately the deep diving midget submarine sector. Meanwhile Rubin is dominant for strategic deterrent submarines, underwater robots (autonomous underwater vehicles – AUVs) and non-nuclear submarines. This manifests itself in interesting ways in the design of the Laika.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/02/inside-russias-laika-next-generation-attack-submarine/
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4355
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The Yasen class does NOT replace the Antei/Oscar-IIs. After modernisation these boats become underwater arsenal ships...
The article repeats the usual garbage about pump-jets making boats quieter and say that "curved propeller blades" are old fashioned... FFS... Pump-jets are pointless beyond a certain depth as water pressure is too high to permit cavitation at the edges of prop blades, regardless of the running speed. Avoid cavitation and you eliminate the main cause of prop noise.
Western boats however aren't built for diving that deep while Russians boats are, but don't expect our feckless "experts" to ever admit these basic facts. The narratives are all-important to these pro-establishment stenographers.
The article repeats the usual garbage about pump-jets making boats quieter and say that "curved propeller blades" are old fashioned... FFS... Pump-jets are pointless beyond a certain depth as water pressure is too high to permit cavitation at the edges of prop blades, regardless of the running speed. Avoid cavitation and you eliminate the main cause of prop noise.
Western boats however aren't built for diving that deep while Russians boats are, but don't expect our feckless "experts" to ever admit these basic facts. The narratives are all-important to these pro-establishment stenographers.
kvs- Posts : 14509
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Big_Gazza wrote:The Yasen class does NOT replace the Antei/Oscar-IIs. After modernisation these boats become underwater arsenal ships...
The article repeats the usual garbage about pump-jets making boats quieter and say that "curved propeller blades" are old fashioned... FFS... Pump-jets are pointless beyond a certain depth as water pressure is too high to permit cavitation at the edges of prop blades, regardless of the running speed. Avoid cavitation and you eliminate the main cause of prop noise.
Western boats however aren't built for diving that deep while Russians boats are, but don't expect our feckless "experts" to ever admit these basic facts. The narratives are all-important to these pro-establishment stenographers.
Curved propeller blades are a old fashioned. The mind boggles at the retardation of these "experts". They are curved to
1) minimize kinetic energy losses for spurious eddies; the ideal operation mode is almost laminar. Without any
fluid dynamic considerations you get propellers that spend their time producing enormous cavities and turbulence instead
of propulsion
2) minimize submarine noise since the propeller is the source of most noise.
So the energy efficiency and quietness go hand in hand regardless what western high school dropout "experts" claim.
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Big_Gazza wrote:...The article repeats the usual garbage about pump-jets making boats quieter and say that "curved propeller blades" are old fashioned... FFS....
Curved propellers are old fashioned but it doesn't mean they are necessarily noisier
Author himself says as much:
. There are lots of elements and compromises involved in submarine stealth. And it’s a safe bet that Laika will be as quiet or quieter than existing Russian boats.
kvs- Posts : 14509
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PapaDragon wrote:Big_Gazza wrote:...The article repeats the usual garbage about pump-jets making boats quieter and say that "curved propeller blades" are old fashioned... FFS....
Curved propellers are old fashioned but it doesn't mean they are necessarily noisier
Author himself says as much:
. There are lots of elements and compromises involved in submarine stealth. And it’s a safe bet that Laika will be as quiet or quieter than existing Russian boats.
Nothing this author says is credible with a moronic claim such as above. Clearly this clown is not talking about MHD drive (aka Red October).
Propellers are not optional and thus the physics that governs such propulsion devices is relevant. Their current shapes are the result
of decades of experience and computer simulations. They are not some aesthetic choice.
You can tell this article is brain dead anti-Russian propaganda by the drivel being spewed in it.
mnztr- Posts : 2455
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Will the lead-bismuth cooled reactors from Alfa class make a come back? from what I read there are some major advantages of this setup. When you shut down you do need to use super heated steam to before restart however...not sure why they could not install a gas turbine APU to generate the steam electrically to do this. In any case, the sub can be made nice an compact at the rear which offers a lot of streamlining potential. The Alfas were amazing boats.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13094
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mnztr wrote:Will the lead-bismuth cooled reactors from Alfa class make a come back? from what I read there are some major advantages of this setup...
Doubtful, they were Gucci but they were also colossal pain in the ass to operate and maintain especially when in port
Their advantage was speed but nowadays silence is most desirable feature and Alfas were exceptionally noisy
Reactors were quite safe because should they ever malfunction entire thing would brick itself instantly thus preventing anything going critical (reactor was a write-off in that case)
GarryB- Posts : 37261
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I think the secret to liquid metal reactors of the future is design them so you never have to shut them down... give them an idling mode where they just keep their coolant liquid...
The Alphas were noisy at top speed but that didn't matter... as the guy in charge of the HATO surface group on exercise when an Alpha class sailed under at 42 knots... we heard him coming but short of dropping nuke depth charges in the water under our own position there was not much we could do about it...
It was actually the Papa class of subs that held the speed record at 44 knots, but it was terribly noisy at that speed too.
The Alphas were noisy at top speed but that didn't matter... as the guy in charge of the HATO surface group on exercise when an Alpha class sailed under at 42 knots... we heard him coming but short of dropping nuke depth charges in the water under our own position there was not much we could do about it...
It was actually the Papa class of subs that held the speed record at 44 knots, but it was terribly noisy at that speed too.