5th gen Husky-class nuclear submarine

The different layers of salinity and temperature of the water have impact on sound propagation. Russian subs can hide under those layers but that has the same impact on their own sonars so if no one can detect them they also can't detect anyone.

Subs are not so stealth during engagement. The loading of torpedo or even opening of torpedo tubes makes noise and could be spoted by trained crew.

Russia has followed the newest western subs like UK ssbn or even SSK in the mediteranean.

There was also an argetinian diesel sub of german construction that launched some torpedo against an UK ship but the torpedo didn't work. I think they detected the launch but were not sure and didn't track the torpedo.

kumbor wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:Don't forget the Proj 954 & 954A Sierra/Barracuda-Condor.  Their maximum depth was at least 600m.  

So is for Yasen

Just buld more of those in the 5 year gap until they switch to Husky

For increase in diving depth you need new hull materials, e.g. Titanium. Russians gave up building of new subs with Ti hulls, as the increase in cost was immense. However, Ti hulls are not prone to corrosion, so they have practically unlimited lifespan.
Newest AS torpedoes have increased depth of action, down to 1000m, but depth affects speed and manoeuvrability.

Russian subs are well known for their increased diving depth, compared to western subs. But, you must know how to use benefits of deep diving and hydroacoustic parameters of the layers of seawater.
Also, we must know the difference between maximum working depth, maximum permissible depth in war and crushing depth. These are different things! Security factor should be no less than 1,5 between maximum operational depth and crushing depth.

Why?
The cheapest steel has a strength of 140 N/mm^2, it translate to 14000 meter deep.

Means only the wall thickness is the upper limit.

But that is the reason why the CCCP/RuN use double hull construction.

kumbor wrote:
Newest AS torpedoes have increased depth of action, down to 1000m, but depth affects speed and manoeuvrability.

All torpedos that use combustive-propulsion technologies have performances that are inversely proportional with operating depth. Raising the pressure at which the combustion-gases are rejected (ie due to the hydrostatic ambient at depth) reduces the available work output from an engine. Electric torpedos don't suffer this performance degradation, but they are limited by battery technologies and still don't pack the energy density of liquid fuels/mono-propellants.

Singular_Transform wrote:

kumbor wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:Don't forget the Proj 954 & 954A Sierra/Barracuda-Condor.  Their maximum depth was at least 600m.  

So is for Yasen

Just buld more of those in the 5 year gap until they switch to Husky

For increase in diving depth you need new hull materials, e.g. Titanium. Russians gave up building of new subs with Ti hulls, as the increase in cost was immense. However, Ti hulls are not prone to corrosion, so they have practically unlimited lifespan.
Newest AS torpedoes have increased depth of action, down to 1000m, but depth affects speed and manoeuvrability.

Russian subs are well known for their increased diving depth, compared to western subs. But, you must know how to use benefits of deep diving and hydroacoustic parameters of the layers of seawater.
Also, we must know the difference between maximum working depth, maximum permissible depth in war and crushing depth. These are different things! Security factor should be no less than 1,5 between maximum operational depth and crushing depth.

Why?
The cheapest steel has a strength of 140 N/mm^2, it translate to 14000 meter deep.

Means only the wall thickness is the upper limit.

But that is the reason why the CCCP/RuN use double hull construction.

There is more involved in making a submarine able to operate in deep water than simply hull thickness. All wetted systems need to be operable at such pressures, all piping systems need to be up-rated, all inter-compartmental transits for electrical, piping, air, instruments, services need to be fully rated for max working depth, ballast systems need sufficient air pressure to be able to operate against worst case hydrostatic ambient (you cannot push water from your ballast tanks if your air receiver pressure is less than the environment).

All things considered, the building of large subs capable of operating at 600m+ depths is VERY difficult and expensive, and that's why so few nations attempt it.

Big_Gazza wrote:

There is more involved in making a submarine able to operate in deep water than simply hull thickness. All wetted systems need to be operable at such pressures, all piping systems need to be up-rated, all inter-compartmental  transits for electrical, piping, air, instruments, services need to be fully rated for max working depth, ballast systems need sufficient air pressure to be able to operate against worst case hydrostatic ambient (you cannot push water from your ballast tanks if your air receiver pressure is less than the environment).  

All things considered, the building of large subs capable of operating at 600m+ depths is VERY difficult and expensive, and that's why so few nations attempt it.

It is about hull thickness, and about the material strenght per kg unit.

Everything else is just minor cost item, the main cost driver of the submarine is the hull thickness.

And this is a complicated story, the specific strenght of the material gives the hull mass, and that give an upper limit to the mass of the equipment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_strength

So, if the hull lighter, then there is more mass for internal equipment, means higher mass of machines


But of course the harder materials are dificult to form and weld, and the submarine hull has very strict geometrical requirements.

The small diameter internal pipework / holes and so on not so chalanging to design.

Vladimir Dorofeev, General Director of the Malachite St. Petersburg Marine Engineering Bureau. about husky:

We do not comment on this. But the work to determine the appearance of a promising multi-purpose submarine of the next generation has been carried out and, as I have already said, presented to the customer in the person of the Ministry of Defense. Now it would be wrong to reveal all the directions and features of the promising submarine, so I’ll say this: fifth-generation submarines will meet all the promising requirements of the Navy and will be able to effectively fend off emerging threats.

(Later on the interview)

A modular approach, a universal platform - how relevant and applicable are these concepts to what you are talking about and what you are doing?

Vladimir Dorofeev: The modularity and unification of ships for different purposes for component equipment can significantly facilitate their operation - this is due to the possibility of group ordering of spare parts, as well as reducing the cost of the entire life cycle of ships. Unification has always been. Starting from the second generation, nuclear power plants were unified, the type range of pumping equipment was developed, the basic electronic weapons systems, on the basis of which modifications were created depending on the tasks to be performed for boats of various purposes.

Prospective ship is not an exception. With regard to it, modularity as a principle and approach will not only develop, but increase in scale ...

What do you mean?

Vladimir Dorofeev: The fact that not only separate systems can be created in the form of standardized modules, but also functionally allocated rooms on submarines. Even parts of the ship. Relatively speaking, it can be divided into three zones: a unified nasal extremity, a unified aft extremity, and the middle part can be transformable and replaceable - for various types of combat load.

All interview:
https://rg.ru/2018/12/18/vladimir-dorofeev-perspektivnye-podlodki-stanut-modulnymi.html

Source: Russia began development work on the creation of the fifth generation nuclear submarine

The submarine will have a modular design and an integrated command and control system with artificial intelligence, as well as be equipped with Zircon hypersonic rockets, the TASS source said

MOSCOW, April 17th. / Tass /. St. Petersburg Marine Engineering Bureau "Malachite" began development work (OCD) under the code "Laika" to create a fifth-generation multipurpose nuclear submarine. This was announced on Wednesday TASS source in the military-industrial complex.


According to him, in the “end of 2018, Malachite completed research work under the Husky cipher with defining the appearance of the fifth-generation multipurpose nuclear submarine, the results of the work were approved by the military department.”

"After" Malachite "proceeded to the next stage of the creation of the submarine - OCD under the code" Laika, "said the agency interlocutor.

He did not disclose the estimated technical characteristics of the submarine under development, but noted that "one of its types of strike weapons will be Zircon hypersonic rockets. The source added that the Laika will have a modular design and a single integrated combat control system with artificial intelligence."

In the United Shipbuilding Corporation did not comment TASS information about the beginning of the ROC "Laika".

In June 2018, in the annual report "Malachite" it was reported that the ROC to create a promising multi-purpose nuclear submarine of the new generation should begin in 2019. The document noted that the work was envisaged in the draft state armament program for the period 2018-2027, the code of the work was not indicated.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6342094

dino00 wrote:Source: Russia began development work on the creation of the fifth generation nuclear submarine

The submarine will have a modular design and an integrated command and control system with artificial intelligence, as well as be equipped with Zircon hypersonic rockets, the TASS source said

MOSCOW, April 17th. / Tass /. St. Petersburg Marine Engineering Bureau "Malachite" began development work (OCD) under the code "Laika" to create a fifth-generation multipurpose nuclear submarine. This was announced on Wednesday TASS source in the military-industrial complex.


According to him, in the “end of 2018, Malachite completed research work under the Husky cipher with defining the appearance of the fifth-generation multipurpose nuclear submarine, the results of the work were approved by the military department.”

"After" Malachite "proceeded to the next stage of the creation of the submarine - OCD under the code" Laika, "said the agency interlocutor.

He did not disclose the estimated technical characteristics of the submarine under development, but noted that "one of its types of strike weapons will be Zircon hypersonic rockets. The source added that the Laika will have a modular design and a single integrated combat control system with artificial intelligence."

In the United Shipbuilding Corporation did not comment TASS information about the beginning of the ROC "Laika".

In June 2018, in the annual report "Malachite" it was reported that the ROC to create a promising multi-purpose nuclear submarine of the new generation should begin in 2019. The document noted that the work was envisaged in the draft state armament program for the period 2018-2027, the code of the work was not indicated.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6342094

so "Husky" was renamed to " "Laika""?

George1 wrote:

dino00 wrote:Source: Russia began development work on the creation of the fifth generation nuclear submarine

The submarine will have a modular design and an integrated command and control system with artificial intelligence, as well as be equipped with Zircon hypersonic rockets, the TASS source said

MOSCOW, April 17th. / Tass /. St. Petersburg Marine Engineering Bureau "Malachite" began development work (OCD) under the code "Laika" to create a fifth-generation multipurpose nuclear submarine. This was announced on Wednesday TASS source in the military-industrial complex.


According to him, in the “end of 2018, Malachite completed research work under the Husky cipher with defining the appearance of the fifth-generation multipurpose nuclear submarine, the results of the work were approved by the military department.”

"After" Malachite "proceeded to the next stage of the creation of the submarine - OCD under the code" Laika, "said the agency interlocutor.

He did not disclose the estimated technical characteristics of the submarine under development, but noted that "one of its types of strike weapons will be Zircon hypersonic rockets. The source added that the Laika will have a modular design and a single integrated combat control system with artificial intelligence."

In the United Shipbuilding Corporation did not comment TASS information about the beginning of the ROC "Laika".

In June 2018, in the annual report "Malachite" it was reported that the ROC to create a promising multi-purpose nuclear submarine of the new generation should begin in 2019. The document noted that the work was envisaged in the draft state armament program for the period 2018-2027, the code of the work was not indicated.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6342094

so "Husky" was renamed to " "Laika""?

R&D Laika, submarine Husky. They wouldn't dare call a Russian Navy submarine Laika
Laika/Husky all related

https://twitter.com/KomissarWhipla/status/1209396166372265984

Dmitry Stefanovich
@KomissarWhipla
Looks like Husky 5th gen nuclear sub will be SLBM capable, according to briefs dedtributed at Federation Council event on shipbuilding.

Well based on their use of multirole systems in their surface ships it might be that for their 5th gen they can replace big huge heavy SLBMs of 2m diameter and 30-50 tons in weight with a nuclear ramjet powered cruise missile sized weapon with unlimited range that might be 2 or 3 tons each... so every sub could have 4-6 strategic missiles that could be launched from anywhere on the planet as part of their nuclear deterrent, while being SSGNs or SSNs all at the same time.

In terms of size and shape these strategic missiles will have a tiny foot print effect on the design and could even potentially be loaded on to SSKs as well... meaning to defeat their nuclear response they will need to sink all their subs before they get the order to launch...

Should be a lot cheaper too... having one design doing all the jobs...

owais.usmani wrote:https://twitter.com/KomissarWhipla/status/1209396166372265984

Dmitry Stefanovich
@KomissarWhipla
Looks like Husky 5th gen nuclear sub will be SLBM capable, according to briefs dedtributed at Federation Council event on shipbuilding.

Interesting

So they are going back to original concept for the Husky

Most likely all boats will share frontal and propulsion segment while central one will be optional and selected based on class requirement for each boat

Well based on their use of multirole systems in their surface ships it might be that for their 5th gen they can replace big huge heavy SLBMs of 2m diameter and 30-50 tons in weight with a nuclear ramjet powered cruise missile sized weapon with unlimited range that might be 2 or 3 tons each... so every sub could have 4-6 strategic missiles that could be launched from anywhere on the planet as part of their nuclear deterrent, while being SSGNs or SSNs all at the same time.

I like that and looks good, but I prefer SLBMs.
Preferably, something of Pukkŭksŏng-1 type, with around 4,000-5,500Km range.

In terms of size and shape these strategic missiles will have a tiny foot print effect on the design and could even potentially be loaded on to SSKs as well... meaning to defeat their nuclear response they will need to sink all their subs before they get the order to launch...

Should be a lot cheaper too... having one design doing all the jobs...

A Pukkŭksŏng-1 type SLBM integrated with a 877/636 sized conventional sub would be a serious combination and will give a very cost effective 2nd strike capability. Russia should seriously look into fielding such a combo.
I took the 877/636/Kilo class basically for its overall hull size, which is around 10metres and the missile silos might just fit fine without major hump.

We have a real example of 877/636 based sub with SLBM silos in the form of Indian Navy's Arihant class N-submarine. The K-4 SLBM on INS Arihant is around 12m in length.


From whats shown of Husky (if at all thats what it is, in general dimension) - the main hull diameter of the sub is around 11-12 meters.

They won't put SLBM inside a SSN/SSGN. Strategic subs are not going anywhere near danger. Also that would also make the sub f*cking expensive.

Also they have 10 boreis on order so they will carry the nuclear deterence. Husky won't replace them for the next 20-25 years and they won't order more than 12-14 SSBN.

It's most likely a variant of husky with SLBM to follow on Boreis in 2030.

Dima means a MRBM for attacking targets inside Europe or Asia. In this case no need for a Borei to waste her costly intercontinental range missiles.

Back in the 80´s Russia used some old Golf class subs for that purpose. They were based in the Baltic Sea.

Hole wrote:Dima means a MRBM for attacking targets inside Europe or Asia. In this case no need for a Borei to waste her costly intercontinental range missiles.

Back in the 80´s Russia used some old Golf class subs for that purpose. They were based in the Baltic Sea.

That can be done from ground launcher for a fraction of the coast or even from the the Caspian sea and some modified Buyan.

Conventional BM are becoming more and more useless since ABM are improving. A longer range Zirkon is a better option and with improved precision tactical nuclear warheads can be used for strategic role.

Interesting

So they are going back to original concept for the Husky

Most likely all boats will share frontal and propulsion segment while central one will be optional and selected based on class requirement for each boat

But why would they consider going back... what has changed to make it viable now when they clearly decided against it already?

If they keep the SSBN weapon load to unlimited range nuclear powered cruise missiles... perhaps with hypersonic nuclear scramjet propulsion then it really wont need much more space than a quarter of the sections they add to add 8 cruise missiles to be carried because they will only need to carry 4-6 weapons each.

They would likely only fit them to nuclear powered subs because the missiles will be nuclear armed and therefore a priority for recovery if there is an accident somewhere or they get damaged in a conflict... they would need to go in to recover the weapons as well as the reactors to prevent US access ie Golf class raising...

I would point out that a modular design with a different payload section is a good idea but fixed at production and therefore not actually multirole.

Multi role is being able to perform a range of missions without modification... though perhaps with a payload change at the pier before the mission starts....

Because these missiles will have unlimited range these boats wont need to sulk and hide in the odd corners of the world, though they could expand their area of operations to anywhere on the planet if they wanted to...

The 4-6 missiles wont take up that much space at all and could even be horizontal external tubes just ready to fire any time they are needed... of course you could argue that having some loaded as torpedoes means they could do that anyway, but integrating them into the structure tells the west they are there and every Russian nuclear sub is now a serious mortal threat to the west.

An important factor of this nuclear scramjet is that its unlimited range could be used at low altitude too, so flying at Mach 3 at 20m altitude would be a serious interception problem because of the dense air... no manned aircraft could match that speed at altitude, let alone at low altitude and most AAMs wont keep moving at that speed at that altitude for very long... they run out of fuel and then rapidly slow down in the warm dense air... a nuclear powered scramjet should keep going for years... In fact the models carried on these boats could be enlarged to carry multiple warheads that can be released at certain waypoints on its journey...

Hole wrote:Dima means a MRBM for attacking targets inside Europe or Asia. In this case no need for a Borei to waste her costly intercontinental range missiles.

Back in the 80´s Russia used some old Golf class subs for that purpose. They were based in the Baltic Sea.

Yes in Europe, but not limited to... INF has already gone down the drain, but the two Arikkaan poodles with Nuclear weapons remains close to Russian borders with their SLBMs.

Isos wrote:They won't put SLBM inside a SSN/SSGN. Strategic subs are not going anywhere near danger. Also that would also make the sub f*cking expensive.

Also they have 10 boreis on order so they will carry the nuclear deterence. Husky won't replace them for the next 20-25 years and they won't order more than 12-14 SSBN.

It's most likely a variant of husky with SLBM to follow on Boreis in 2030.  

The only thing that's coming to your mind are those big heavy missiles when you hear that SLBM stuff. So keep those biggies aside and think about smaller and lighter SLBMs which can also be carried by smaller and lighter DE submarines and not just SSN - provided they are installed with a larger dia VLS.

For instance, a 9-10m long SLBM inside 12m dia hull of 667BDRM or 885/M probably wouldn't even need a hump to accommodate the silos.

Promising nuclear submarine cruiser project 545 "Laika-Navy"

The exhibition of modern and promising models of weapons and military equipment launched on December 24, 2019 at the National Center for Defense Management of the Russian Federation before an extended meeting of the Board of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, and visited by President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin, demonstrated, among other things, a model of promising fifth generation nuclear submarine cruiser of project 545 (code "Laika-Navy").

A model of a promising fifth-generation nuclear submarine cruiser of project 545 (code "Laika-Navy") for the Russian Navy at the exposition of an exhibition of samples of modern and promising weapons and military equipment at the National Defense Management Center of the Russian Federation before an expanded meeting of the Board of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. Moscow, 12.24.2019 (c) a fragment of a frame from the TV report of Channel One

According to the accompanying plate, the fifth-generation nuclear submarine of Project 545 (code "Laika-Navy") is designed to destroy critical enemy targets, destroy surface ships, submarines, ships and boats, enemy stationary fixed structures.

The main performance characteristics: displacement - 11340 tons, speed - 35 knots, autonomy - 90 days, maximum immersion depth - 600 meters.

The main armament: 3M-14 Kalibr, ZM-22 Zircon, 3M-55 Onyx, SAM for MANPADS Igla, rockets 81RU “Response”, missiles “Predator”, torpedoes “Physicist-1”, torpedoes USET-80, anti-torpedoes "Lasta", mini-missile PMR-2, mine-torpedoes MTPK-1.

The project developer is JSC “St. Petersburg Marine Bureau of Engineering“ Malachite ”named after Academician N. N. Isanin (JSC“ SPMSBM Malakhit ”). Recall that in April 2019 it was reported that JSC SPMPBM“ Malachite ”began an experimental design work (OKR) under the code "Laika" to create a fifth-generation nuclear submarine for the Russian Navy. Earlier at the end of 2018, the Malachite SMBM completed research work under the Husky code to determine the appearance of a fifth-generation nuclear submarine, the results of the work were approved by the Russian Ministry of Defense, and the bureau began the next step in creating a promising nuclear submarine code "Laika".

It was reported that one of its types of strike weapons would be 3M22 Zircon hypersonic missiles, and it was announced that Laika would have a modular design and a single integrated combat control system with artificial intelligence. "

In June 2018, in the annual report of the Malachite SPMBM, it was reported that the R&D for the creation of a promising multi-purpose nuclear submarine of a new generation should begin in 2019. The document noted that the implementation of work is provided for by the draft State Armament Program for the period 2018-2027, the code of work was not indicated.




https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3887568.html

https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2539966.html

Seems like no VLS and shorter than Yasen. 11kt must be submerged so lighter than yasen.

It looks a lot like a kilo sub. They must have been impressed by the stealth of its shapes and used it for the Husky.

Very good !! Exactly what they need !

Sorry... I didn't read Dinos post properly... it is pretty clear...

Relatively speaking, it can be divided into three zones: a unified nasal extremity, a unified aft extremity, and the middle part can be transformable and replaceable - for various types of combat load.

So basically they are standardised with the nose and the propulsion at the front and rear respectively, with the same middle part that can accept launch modules that can be replacable.

So you make 50 of these subs... and then you can load them out the way you want them... you could have SSGNs with the centre section filled with UKSK-M launch tubes, you could have an SSBN with a centre section with a drop in launcher for ICBMs, you could also have a special forces support module with mini subs and diver hatches for sneaky beaky stuff, or you could have a transport bin... hell you could have a Ka-31 helicopter module if you wanted, you could have a module for under sea research with any type of equipment in there that you wanted... you could have a Poseidon launcher if you need it... the point is that you could make the module do anything you like and fit them to some or all the subs if you want to... the role of the sub can be determined in port during loading.

You could even have multirole modules that combine cruise missiles and SAMs... you could have five subs carrying UKSK-M launchers filled with hundreds of SAMs of all types and a single sub with perhaps two upgraded Ka-31s with the new radar types in a smaller and lighter system that uses a long wave communication system to send its data to the sub that launched it, which could then search the immediate airspace in that part of the ocean and guide missiles launched from the other subs nearby... they could release a floating buoy for communications so the helos can command SAM launches from the subs closest to the targets to engage any air threats... they could be deployed in the direction an attack from an enemy might come as a sort of ambush for aircraft or missile attacks on Russian surface fleet groups... or they might operate with a carrier... remember the UKSK-M should be able to carry SAMs, but can also carry anti sub missiles of a newer and much larger design... as well as anti ship missiles too... and potentially even anti satellite and ABM S-500 missiles too.

This is a very clever idea and a natural progression for the Russian Navy.

Isos wrote:Seems like no VLS and shorter than Yasen. 11kt must be submerged so lighter than yasen.

It looks a lot like a kilo sub. They must have been impressed by the stealth of its shapes and used it for the Husky.

Very good !! Exactly what they need !

The VLS are probably behind the sail aft of the 2nd hatch, possibly 4 x 2 silos.



The model below displayed @ ARMY 2017 is likely "related" to the new model and in this we can get a good view/feel of the aft hull section where the silos are placed. We can see the bulge and the outer hydrodynamic hull contours (similar to 955, but much more streamlined/smoothened).

Isos wrote:Seems like no VLS and shorter than Yasen. 11kt must be submerged so lighter than yasen.

It looks a lot like a kilo sub. They must have been impressed by the stealth of its shapes and used it for the Husky.

Very good !! Exactly what they need !

Scaling doesn't work in this picture! Project 1144 cruiser is the same size like a Gorshkov frigate

It will have VLS !

Dima wrote: VLS are probably behind the sail aft of the 2nd hatch.

Exactly! You can see it because the shape in this part is more angular above and not round, as it should be without VLS.

You can guess its size thanks to its sail. I would say some 105-110m. Yasen is 120m.