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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov


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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:15 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...........
    The loss of that floating dry dock means they cannot easily service a large ship now, the article states yes they do have alternatives for other large surface ships but those alternatives will be a lot more time consuming than normal at this point meaning they will be even SLOWER than normal for a while.

    Only important question is how does this affect submarine maintenance and construction?

    Nothing much will change with surface fleet. Ship classes that Russia can produce now (up to frigate maybe, corvette more likely) will not be affected and can be serviced with any other dry-dock.

    This dry-dock here that they managed to sink is only crucial for legacy white elephants that do not contribute to defense anyway and are sucking up resources.

    But if submarines are affected than it's nothing short of total disaster.  So are they? Question

    If they had to raise a big submarine out of the water yes it will.

    Also frigates are affected Russia does not have tons of dry docks space to spare, if you move a ship into the land-based dry docks you taking up construction time and slots.

    Floating dry docks are used to solve this problem. They are also used to safely guide a ship into a land-based dry dock otherwise you have a huge risk of causing hull damage to the ships this includes subs.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:20 am; edited 1 time in total
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:18 am

    hoom wrote:
    Stop trying to act like this issue isn't one it is a really big issue.
    I don't think anyone is behaving like its no big deal, its a giant PR disaster & going to be a big PITA logistically but its also not going to cause the collapse of the whole fleet.

    Question is how to go about getting it sorted.

    It will cause some areas of the fleet to collapse without a maintenance facility which is what the PD-50 was used for it played a very important role in managing the fleet.
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    Post  Hole Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:50 am

    It is a floating dry dock. For subs. But Zvezda is capable of building a replacement for your sacred PD-50, the ornerstone of the russian Navy without all the fleets will have no other joice but to be disbanned.
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    Post  hoom Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:14 am

    Its not like PD-50 is the only floating dock in the North though.
    I counted at least 10 decent size ones via Google Earth & several smaller.

    Question is how close to capacity those are working?
    If they're already pretty close to capacity its a big issue but if there is a bunch of spare capacity there may be little/no impact other than K & PtG.
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    Post  Nibiru Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:39 am

    Maybe its a better idea if Rus navy just build a new graving dry dock big enough to service AC size ships instead of floating dry docks that are prone to disasters like this. 

    Also why did the soviets even bothered to get floating drydocks like PD-50 instead of standard one? Its not like Russia has limited shoreline to spare for building structures.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:56 pm

    Hole wrote:It is a floating dry dock. For subs. But Zvezda is capable of building a replacement for your sacred PD-50, the ornerstone of the russian Navy without all the fleets will have no other joice but to be disbanned.

    The guys who own the shipyard have said that won't happen anytime soon, soooo keep talking~ Cause the owners themselves have said this and PRETTTTTTTY sure the guys who own the shipyard would know better then you.

    so I'll take their word over yours thanx.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:57 pm

    hoom wrote:Its not like PD-50 is the only floating dock in the North though.
    I counted at least 10 decent size ones via Google Earth & several smaller.

    Question is how close to capacity those are working?
    If they're already pretty close to capacity its a big issue but if there is a bunch of spare capacity there may be little/no impact other than K & PtG.

    Assuming you did see 10 no offense its really hard to tell a floating dock from other things via google earth which isn't reliable at all.

    They are way to small also. There are big reasons why the United Shipbuilding corp is admitting this is a disaster of massive scale. Straight from the guys who make warships for Russia and handle the fleet in that way. Seems the more this is explained the more people do not want to accept the reality and wish to gloss over it not wanting to admit how big of a fudge this has become.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:19 pm


    Good news luckily (not for Kuznetzov though)

    Russia finds alternative to sunken floating dock for naval ships

    http://tass.com/defense/1029654

    Docking versions serving as an alternative to the sunken floating dock in Murmansk in northwest Russia have been found for all the Russian Navy’s ships, Head of the United Ship-Building Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov said on Wednesday.

    "We have alternatives actually for all the ships except for [the aircraft carrier] Admiral Kuznetsov. Our enterprises are in operation, [including] the Nerpa [Ship Repair Factory]. After all, we can perform certain docking works in Severodvinsk, not far from Murmansk. We don’t feel any special problems in this regard," the chief executive said
    ..............
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:28 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Good news luckily (not for Kuznetzov though)

    Russia finds alternative to sunken floating dock for naval ships

    http://tass.com/defense/1029654

    Docking versions serving as an alternative to the sunken floating dock in Murmansk in northwest Russia have been found for all the Russian Navy’s ships, Head of the United Ship-Building Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov said on Wednesday.

    "We have alternatives actually for all the ships except for [the aircraft carrier] Admiral Kuznetsov. Our enterprises are in operation, [including] the Nerpa [Ship Repair Factory]. After all, we can perform certain docking works in Severodvinsk, not far from Murmansk. We don’t feel any special problems in this regard," the chief executive said
    ..............

    They can the problem is they slow down other progress because now they have to use those facilities for dual purpose they never intended so they are now expecting those places to do double the work which is going to cause time delays.

    also he said "Certain" meaning very specifics things they can do but others they cannot in that area


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  hoom Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:28 pm

    Assuming you did see 10 no offense its really hard to tell a floating dock from other things via google earth which isn't reliable at all.
    Are you censored serious? Neutral

    They are way to small also.
    Too small for K & PtG no question but there are a bunch of other, smaller ships in the fleet.
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:30 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:...........
    They can the problem is they slow down other progress because now they have to use those facilities for dual purpose they never intended so they are now expecting those places to do double the work which is going to cause time delays.

    Then they better get their butts into gear then, if they want surface navy they can't afford slacking off
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:31 pm

    hoom wrote:
    Assuming you did see 10 no offense its really hard to tell a floating dock from other things via google earth which isn't reliable at all.
    Are you censored serious?  Neutral

    They are way to small also.
    Too small for K & PtG no question but there are a bunch of other, smaller ships in the fleet.

    On google earth being unreliable? yes because it's not.
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    Post  hoom Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:54 pm

    On google earth being unreliable? yes because it's not.
    Its plenty reliable to tell the difference between a floating dock and anything else since nothing else looks anything like a floating dock

    On the bright side PR wise NATO now has their own major embarrassment...
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 8 Drelo08XgAAfEkR

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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:57 pm

    hoom wrote:
    On google earth being unreliable? yes because it's not.
    Its plenty reliable to tell the difference between a floating dock and anything else since nothing else looks anything like a floating dock

    On the bright side PR wise NATO now has their own major embarrassment...
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 8 Drelo08XgAAfEkR


    How the hell did they do this?


    That being said, someone else's f***ups do not excuse Russia's. Problem did not go away.
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    Post  hoom Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:14 pm

    Ran into an oil tanker on the way in/out of port, grounded to prevent sinking.
    Point is fuckups happen to everyone & aren't exclusive to Russia.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:36 pm

    But the whining butt hurt is...

    They have another large floating dock with the Pacific fleet... and worst case scenario they could always get someone else to make a couple of them for them... Sweden and Finland have made them for them in the past, but certainly China or South Korea could easily make them some.

    They already use cranes made in China anyway.
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    Post  Hole Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:41 pm

    The one in Wladiwostok was build by Japan.
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    Post  JohninMK Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:51 pm

    hoom wrote:Ran into an oil tanker on the way in/out of port, grounded to prevent sinking.
    Point is fuckups happen to everyone & aren't exclusive to Russia.
    Its O/T here but its quite interesting so I'll start a discussion on it in the right place

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7074-scandinavian-countries-militaries
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:29 am

    GarryB wrote:They have another large floating dock with the Pacific fleet... and worst case scenario they could always get someone else to make a couple of them for them... Sweden and Finland have made them for them in the past, but certainly China or South Korea could easily make them some.
    True, but in the long run they better build more dry docks on land to spend &/ save $ inside the country instead & insure against this type of accidents in the future. If they don't, in a few decades they'll need to be replaced & this cycle will repeat!
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:44 am

    GarryB wrote:But the whining butt hurt is...

    They have another large floating dock with the Pacific fleet... and worst case scenario they could always get someone else to make a couple of them for them... Sweden and Finland have made them for them in the past, but certainly China or South Korea could easily make them some.

    They already use cranes made in China anyway.

    not at the size of PD-50
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:45 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:
    On google earth being unreliable? yes because it's not.
    Its plenty reliable to tell the difference between a floating dock and anything else since nothing else looks anything like a floating dock

    On the bright side PR wise NATO now has their own major embarrassment...
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 8 Drelo08XgAAfEkR


    How the hell did they do this?


    That being said, someone else's f***ups do not excuse Russia's. Problem did not go away.  

    Well there is no excuse for that, I don't even know how they managed that one

    and yes to that second part
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    Post  JohninMK Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:15 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Well there is no excuse for that, I don't even know how they managed that one
    I have a theory in the other thread

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7074-scandinavian-countries-militaries


    EDIT

    Now updated. Definite end of career for some.
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    Post  JohninMK Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:25 pm

    Norwegian frigate captain asleep in bunk, duty officer 26 years old and 12 months out of training, frigate sinking lower in the water.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:41 pm

    The new civilian owners didn't follow the same procedures on Diesel generators as the VMF, resulting in drydock sinking:
    https://zen.yandex.ru/media/amico/balbesy-i-flot-chast-2ia-utopili-plavuchii-dok-5be8423cf9cb6200acec8f38?&from=feed
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    Post  mnztr Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:31 pm

    How deep is PD-50 sunk? I assume its not super deep, so I am wondering why its such a huge task to refloat it. Can they not just pump compressed air into the ballasts in a coordinated manner and float it that way? Barring that, use a bunch of flotation bags to pull flush with the surface, then pump out the tanks? Was this incompetence or sabotage?

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