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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

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    hoom

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    Post  hoom Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:07 am

    If the blackout caused the dock to sink then it has holes on it.
    Means thy had to run the pumps 24/7 to keep it float.

    So, as soon as there was no electricity the dock started to tilt, so they choose to sunk it, causing same damage to the Kuz rather than to capsize the carrier.
    I think the official line is they were in process of taking K out of dock & the power loss caused them to lose control/couldn't manually stabilise in time.

    Haven't seen any evidence yet to support the claim of K suffering flooding (which would disprove the official line), the first couple of pics possibly show a starboard list but could be a perspective illusion, the crane pics it looks even keel.


    After the refit, they better transfer her to the Black Sea, so winter storm related damage to power supply won't happen again.
    No they just need to maintain the onboard generators of floating docks so that there is a functional backup to cheaper shore power.
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:40 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:It's a TAKR, not CV, & we already discussed the issue on this & other threads. Also, a big dock can be used by several ships & subs.
    SSBNs can be sent there w/o BMs, if need be.

    Once it enters Black Sea it's not leaving ever (if it could get there in the first place)



    Hole wrote:Didn´t someone on this forum say that Kuznetsov needs a bigger crane? Very Happy

    She's got one now, it's positively gargantuan! lol1
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:34 am

    Means thy had to run the pumps 24/7 to keep it float.
    Is that's how it was supposed to be? Why couldn't they trim with ballast & close the filling/drain holes? Also, it's not safe to pull a ship out at night, so it was an emergency. Yes, some compartments were flooded as it wasn't sealed for boiler work & the crew saved her.

    A Huge Floating Drydock Sank and Nearly took Russia’s Only Aircraft Carrier with It

    https://sputniknews.com/russia/201811041069500916-admiral-kuznetsov-photos/
    https://www.janes.com/article/84216/russia-s-sole-aircraft-carrier-damaged-by-sinking-of-floating-dock
    https://jamestown.org/program/russian-navy-suffers-another-blow-as-aircraft-carrier-is-damaged-while-undergoing-repairs/
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:46 am

    Once it enters Black Sea it's not leaving ever (if it could get there in the first place)
    Never say 'never"! If it's refitted & still breaks down, the towing distance will be a lot shorter.
    Also, Turkey won't rock the boat with Russia. Recall how ban on tomatoes imports & tourists forced Erdogan to apologise for Su-24 shootdown & normalize relations.
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:10 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Once it enters Black Sea it's not leaving ever (if it could get there in the first place)
    Never say 'never"! If it's refitted & still breaks down, the towing distance will be a lot shorter.
    Also, Turkey won't rock the boat with Russia. Recall how ban on tomatoes imports & tourists forced Erdogan to apologise for Su-24 shootdown & normalize relations.

    You think this decrepit bathtub is worth pulling sanctions agan?

    Plus Erdogan will not be in charge forever, soon things will be getting back to business as usual.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:39 am

    They'll lose le$$ with sanctions before they r lifted than sailing it around Europe & there will/may be new ships like UDKs & TAKRs in the Black Sea later; Turkey may leave NATO & join other blocks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Cooperation_Organisation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Security_Treaty_Organization

    Why should Turkey aid the fight against Iran & Russia on behalf of the Wall Street tycoons?
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    Post  hoom Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:22 am

    Is that's how it was supposed to be? Why couldn't they trim with ballast & close the filling/drain holes? Also, it's not safe to pull a ship out at night, so it was an emergency. Yes, some compartments were flooded as it wasn't sealed for boiler work & the crew saved her.
    Thing is there is only the one source for it not being initially a planned leaving of drydock.

    I don't rule it out as being the case but the visual evidence so far counters other parts of that account: I can't see how the crane can wind up like this and have also made a large hole in the side near the waterline
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 7 6112365_original
    (there is limited visibility though so not impossible)

    K is floating pretty high above load waterline which seems unlikely if it's taken on thousands of tons of water in uncontrolled flooding.
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 7 6095724_original
    (obviously its been de-stored at least to some degree for the maintenance so maybe it should be floating higher yet)

    There is more than one source for the generators being long out of commission so that is certainly true.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:29 pm

    The carrier is fine, well this will delay their work even more Russians problem is the loss of their PD-50 will hurt them hard, that was their biggest floating dry dock. Question is if they can even recover the dock now if not they took a huge hit and that will set them back.
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:45 pm

    Quickest Solution would be to buy floating dock from China.
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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:28 pm

    Or use the gigantic yard that is build next door.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:05 pm

    I can't see how the crane can wind up like this and have also made a large hole in the side near the waterline... K is floating pretty high above load waterline which seems unlikely if it's taken on thousands of tons of water in uncontrolled flooding.
    To me, it looks like an access hole, not damage; there could be other holes on the starboard side.
    Thousand of tons of H2O would have capsized & sunk it too.
    Or use the gigantic yard that is build next door.
    How long will it take to be ready?
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    Post  Isos Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:26 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Quickest Solution would be to buy floating dock from China.

    Sweeden produce them too. It would be faster to invade them Laughing
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:30 pm

    I can't see how the crane can wind up like this and have also made a large hole in the side near the waterline... K is floating pretty high above load waterline which seems unlikely if it's taken on thousands of tons of water in uncontrolled flooding.
    To me, it looks like an access hole, not damage; there could be other holes on the starboard side.
    Thousand of tons of H2O would have capsized & sunk it too.
    Or use the gigantic yard that is build next door.
    How long will it take to be ready?
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:34 pm

    Isos wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Quickest Solution would be to buy floating dock from China.
    Sweeden produce them too. It would be faster to invade them Laughing
    Finland will need to be invaded 1st. The last time, in 1938, they got more than they bargained for. They'll have more luck invading S. Ukraine to get the Nikolaev Shipyard that built the Adm. K!
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    Post  slasher Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:58 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:The carrier is fine, well this will delay their work even more Russians problem is the loss of their PD-50 will hurt them hard, that was their biggest floating dry dock. Question is if they can even recover the dock now if not they took a huge hit and that will set them back.

    Yeah, I think that's the really worrying thing. Strategically, this could probably turn out almost as bad as if the K itself was put out of service (of course losing the K would have been a complete disaster all other things considered; PR, national pride etc.).
    But as an indispensable asset as the PD-50 apparently is, this is indeed a massive hit. We could only find out of how essential it really is though, if its projected schedule/roster were made available covering the next couple years. Then we'll have a better idea how many/what other vessels were lined up to access her services.
    Quite telling also was how, almost immediately, Borisov stated that more than likely 'yes' she will be lifted. This without any sort of preliminary assessments or analysis of the situation as it is.

    And also, USC may file a lawsuit against the Rosneft plant due to the accident with Admiral Kuznetsov: Open the question of replacing the site for further repair of the aircraft carrier
    It is noted that the flooding of the floating dock can affect the repair time of other ships. “This dock is used not only for Admiral Kuznetsov, but also for our other ships of the first and second rank, so other repair work this year will be stopped,” said Alexei Rakhmanov. wrote:

    This article somewhat explains how dire is the situation, but it's clearly written with a pro-western/anti-russian p.o.v.
    Russia's Dry Dock Accident Could Have Far Larger Repercussions Than A Damaged Carrier : Russia's biggest dry dock has completely sunk and it's debatable if it has anything that could fully replace it anytime in the foreseeable future.


    Last edited by slasher on Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:19 pm

    Quite right the loss of PD-50 is massive, It will cause them many many problems if it's not raised and fixed in a timely manner.

    This is something to be concerned about very very much so.

    The russians have to raise the dock and if they can't they will feel the cost for years to come for losing it in such a sad way of all things.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:34 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Quite right the loss of PD-50 is massive, It will cause them many many problems if it's not raised and fixed in a timely manner.

    This is something to be concerned about very very much so.

    The russians have to raise the dock and if they can't they will feel the cost for years to come for losing it in such a sad way of all things.

    Maybe but if it finally snaps them out of their carrier navy fantasies and forces them to focus on realistic and useful platforms that are actually required for defense then it will be worth it in the long run

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    Post  hoom Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:48 pm

    Quite telling also was how, almost immediately, Borisov stated that more than likely she will be lifted. This without any sort of preliminary assessments or analysis of the situation as it is.
    Any country would give that answer initially.
    If replacement is super urgent they'll buy one off China, otherwise wait for the Novatek yard to complete/clear initial orders or start build a new one themselves.

    To me, it looks like an access hole, not damage; there could be other holes on the starboard side.
    Thousand of tons of H2O would have capsized & sunk it too.
    Yes there is a hole under where the crane is, pretty obviously an access hole, possibly where boilers were removed/replaced in which case it was there before K went into the dock -> not likely to cause flooding.
    Could be other holes on that side yes but how could they be made by the crane & have it wind up where it is?

    A ship as big as K can certainly sustain several thousand tons of flooding without capsize depending on where the flooding is but I'd expect it to sit a lot lower than it is if that was the case.
    The source who says K wasn't ready to leave dock says the crane made a hole & thousands of tons of flooding through holes/open valves, if the latter two are not true then probably the first isn't either.
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    Post  George1 Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:54 am

    St. Petersburg factory to repair aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov’s powerplant by 2020

    The Kirov Factory did not specify the current stage of the repair works


    ST.PETERSBURG, November 6. /TASS/. The St. Petersburg-based Kirov-Energomash (part of the Kirov Factory) will complete works to restore the equipment of the main powerplant of the Russian Navy’s sole aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov in 2020, Kirov Factory CEO Georgy Semenenko told TASS on Tuesday.

    "The terms of the contract are being fulfilled strictly in accordance with the schedule agreed with the customer and all the works are due to be completed in 2020," the chief executive said.

    The Kirov Factory did not specify, however, the stage of the repair works at present.

    Kirov-Energomash specializing in the manufacture and modernization of powerplant started the repairs of the aircraft carrier’s main propulsion unit in August 2018 under a contract signed on July 13 with the Zvyozdochka Ship Repair Center (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation). The factory’s specialists participated in the disassembly and will be involved in the subsequent assembly of the equipment and start-up works.

    After the repairs are over, Russia’s sole aircraft carrier will get new air defense systems, in particular, the Pantsyr-M complex, and new flight control systems.

    Repairs on the Admiral Kuznetsov

    The Zvyozdochka Ship Repair Center signed a contract with Russia’s Defense Ministry in April on the aircraft carrier’s repairs. The works started in May and are scheduled to be completed in 2021.

    The dock repairs of the Admiral Kuznetsov were carried out at the 82nd Ship Repair Factory in the Murmansk Region in northwest Russia. However, the factory’s PD-50 floating dock sank overnight to October 30 in Murmansk during the planned exit of the heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov from it. According to preliminary information, the warship itself had its take-off deck damaged by the fallen crane and is now at the 35th Ship Repair Plant.

    The spokesman for the Zvyozdochka Ship Repair Center said that the repairs were proceeding according to schedule.

    As a source in the ship-building industry told TASS, the Admiral Kuznetsov does not need repeat repairs in docks after the incident.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1029509
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:24 am

    Could be other holes on that side yes but how could they be made by the crane & have it wind up where it is?
    They could be other access holes or holes caused by this accident.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:01 pm

    They could buy one off China but that would take time, time the russians don't really have.

    It would take two years to get a dry dock like they lost from china, China cannot just snap it's fingers and make it appear out of the blue.

    In the end, buying a dock from china would do little to nothing to help the situation at that point russia may has well build their own.

    China has no floating drydocks of that size to spare.
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    Post  hoom Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:40 pm

    Well thats not even an access hole under the crane, its just part of the ship, can see down to below load waterline here, no sign of damage from the crane right where you'd expect it to be if the crane did cause damage in the hull side
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 7 07-6843897-1069500838
    End of the boom appears to have landed on one of the Kashtans but thats not really a biggie since they're being replaced with Pantsir-M anyway.
    Deck even looks like its barely dented even where the counterweight landed.


    Edit: divers confirm PD-50 is severely damaged http://severpost.ru/read/71829/
    The divers carried out an initial inspection of the floating dock PD-50 sunk on October 30 in the waters of the 82nd ship repair yard (SRZ).

    “According to their information, during the examination, it was discovered that PD-50 was damaged by the hull on which cracks formed as a result of hitting the bottom, ” a source familiar with the situation told Interfax .

    According to him, "this is not surprising, given the weight of the dock and its age." He believes that this is why a decision has not yet been made about what to do next with the dock - whether to lift it or not.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:46 pm

    Given its weight, is it worth lifting even for scrap? They could probably cut it into smaller pieces before lifting them.
    The good news is that the new boilers r already installed & the refit can proceed pier side; later it can go in a drydock again, even after the next cruise.
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    Post  Hole Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:30 pm

    New dry dock in construction at Zvezda.

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 7 210

    If a new one is really needed...
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:07 pm

    far as I can see thats not a floating dry dock even it if it's it's too small. Stop trying to act like this issue isn't one it is a really big issue.

    "Russia has officially confirmed that it does not have any facilities that can service its lone carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, after the country’s massive PD-50 floating dry dock sank in October 2018. State-owned United Shipbuilding Corporation, or USC, says that it is looking into alternatives for servicing the flattop, but those substitutes could be months, if not years away from becoming operational".

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/24760/russia-admits-it-doesnt-have-any-dry-docks-that-can-fit-its-lone-carrier-after-accident

    The loss of that floating dry dock means they cannot easily service a large ship now, the article states yes they do have alternatives for other large surface ships but those alternatives will be a lot more time consuming than normal at this point meaning they will be even SLOWER than normal for a while.

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