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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:42 pm

    mnztr wrote:How deep is PD-50 sunk? I assume its not super deep, so I am wondering why its such a huge task to refloat it. Can they not just pump compressed air into the ballasts in a coordinated manner and float it that way? Barring that, use a bunch of flotation bags to pull flush with the surface, then pump out the tanks? Was this incompetence or sabotage?


    It's wrecked, it's ancient, it's a goner
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    Post  JohninMK Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:50 pm

    mnztr wrote:How deep is PD-50 sunk? I assume its not super deep, so I am wondering why its such a huge task to refloat it. Can they not just pump compressed air into the ballasts in a coordinated manner and float it that way? Barring that, use a bunch of flotation bags to pull flush with the surface, then pump out the tanks? Was this incompetence or sabotage?

    We don't know what the seabed is like there other than its probably rocky. Potentially speared by a rock combined with a potentially damaging unbalanced sinking could have rendered it scrap. Add to that the seawater damage to anything attached to the 'hull' would finish it off. Might be recovered for scrap or to remove as a hazard.
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    Post  mnztr Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:56 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:


    It's wrecked, it's ancient, it's a goner


    based on what? It really depends on how deep it is there, what the sea floor is like etc etc. If its really deep and sea floor is uneven, then yeah, it will be trashed for sure. I am reading the depth at the anchorage is less then 75 feet, so they will have to remove it anyway. you cannot leave it there. So they may as well try to salvage it. Its under study, and indications are they will probably raise it:

    http://tass.com/defense/1028625
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    Post  mnztr Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:59 pm

    Plus PD-50 is a modular dock, they can actually raise it in sections after some underwater cutting.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:46 am

    mnztr wrote:Plus PD-50 is a modular dock, they can actually raise it in sections after some underwater cutting.

    Getting new one from China will take less time than fixing this one (not that there is anything left to fix, that thing is old as hell)

    Besides, how long do you think it would take Russian shipbuilding "experts" to carry out that little project? Decade at least given their track record....
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    Post  hoom Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:32 am

    They say about 30m deep, sloped side of the fjord goes down to 100m & possibly hasn't slid deeper primarily because of the anchors.
    Divers said its got multiple cracks, I think its pretty poked.
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    Post  mnztr Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:37 am

    hoom wrote:They say about 30m deep, sloped side of the fjord goes down to 100m & possibly hasn't slid deeper primarily because of the anchors.
    Divers said its got multiple cracks, I think its pretty poked.

    Cracks can be welded, they will have to remove it anyway, its way to big to just leave there in 30M water so they may as well take a whack at salvaging it.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:15 am


    Yes, it is too big to leave it there, that's why they'll have to scrap it
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:56 am

    Or they could blow it up or use tugs to drag it to deeper water.
    But I think if it can't be salvaged & repaired, at least some of it may be used to construct a new dock.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:49 pm

    True, but in the long run they better build more dry docks on land to spend &/ save $ inside the country instead & insure against this type of accidents in the future. If they don't, in a few decades they'll need to be replaced & this cycle will repeat!

    Floating docks are much easier and cheaper and can be moved around when needed.





    not at the size of PD-50

    According to this article:

    https://russia-insider.com/en/russias-only-aircraft-carrier-damaged-when-dock-sinks-crane-punches-huge-hole-ship/ri25242

    Specifically:
    There is an alternative large dry dock in Russia’s far east, PD-41, which services the Pacific Fleet and was originally built by Japan. PD-41 has similar characteristics to PD-50 and may prove Kuznetsov’s only possible alternative once the ship is ready to make the journey.

    There is the PD-41.

    How deep is PD-50 sunk? I assume its not super deep, so I am wondering why its such a huge task to refloat it.

    It is not about depth... it is a very weak unsupported structure... difficult to raise with the risk of it breaking apart.

    Was this incompetence or sabotage?

    Suspect it was greed... take over ownership and immediately save money by selling off the fuel reserved for the onboard power systems because the land connection will keep it powered...

    Besides, how long do you think it would take Russian shipbuilding "experts" to carry out that little project? Decade at least given their track record....

    Well if they can't make anything why bother... they don't do anything so they don't need anything right? Rolling Eyes
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:45 pm

    Floating docks are much easier and cheaper and can be moved around when needed.
    True, but if they don't sink, other docks won't need to be moved to replace them. PD-50 & PD-41 weren't moved far ever since their delivery AFAIK. So cheaper isn't= better.

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    Post  mnztr Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:10 pm

    Its modular so they can re float it piece by piece by doimg some.cutting. That way it won't snap
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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:53 pm

    Another one.

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 9 Pd-19010

    PD-190. Novorossyisk.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:59 am

    True, but if they don't sink, other docks won't need to be moved to replace them. PD-50 & PD-41 weren't moved far ever since their delivery AFAIK. So cheaper isn't= better.

    They have to sink to work... you can't just get a good run up with a 60,000 ton aircraft carrier and try to park it on one of these...

    You place supports on the bottom of it for the ship you want to work with to settle on and then you sink the dock and then move the ship into position and then raise the dock to support and then raise the ship out of the water.

    The fact that it is floating means you can move it anywhere there is water, so you can move it all round a port when ever it suits... this particular one was important because you could put more than one vessel on it because of its capacity for 80,000 tons you could get one Kuznetsov, but you could get a couple of submarines of any type or two Kirovs or a mix of vessels at one time.

    You could still move it while they were on it, though it was more for repair than for transportation.

    From what I have read the K was just about to be removed from the floating dock when the dock sank so it is likely the only problems caused would be damage from the falling crane which is generally described as being superficial and easy to repair...

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    Post  Hole Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:02 am

    Official MoD release, yesterday.


    Admiral Kuznetsov has no significant damage caused by accident at floating deck

    The aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov's takeoff deck has not been significantly damaged by the fallen crane when the ship was leaving floating dry dock at the 82nd Repair Shipyard. As Deputy Defence Minister Alexey Krivoruchko stated at teleconference chaired by Deputy Defence Minister Ruslan Tsalikov.
    "As the ship arrived at the 35th Ship Repair Plant (a branch of the Zvezdochka Shipyard), a special commission was organized to assess the damage. According to the results of preliminary inspection the commission stated that the Admiral Kuznetsov has no significant damages", Alexey Krivoruchko explained.
    According to him, all measure to repair technical readiness of the ship are carried out in scheduled manner. Required updates have already been introduced into the roadmap and will not affect deadline under the contract."
    Earlier it had been reported that on October 30 as the PD-50 floating dock sunk during the planned exit of the heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov, a crane №2 collapsed on a takeoff deck.
    Alexey Krivoruchko also stated that the Russian Defence Ministry signed a contract with the Zvezdochka Shipyard in 2018 within the State Defence Order to recover technical readiness with modernization works of the heavy aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov to be completed in forth quarter of 2022.
    At the same time, the Deputy Defence Minister noted that in the period from September 17 to October 30, the planned dock operations were performed in full at the 82nd Ship Repair Plant in Murmansk.
    Alexey Krivoruchko explained that “during the whole period of work on the ship, it is planned to replace and repair elements of the main power plant, upgrade the electric power system, radio equipment and air defence equipment, install and upgrade means ensuring the operation of an aircraft wing of the cruiser”.
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    Post  hoom Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:55 am

    K refit end date is rescheduled to end of 2022 (previously end of 2020), perhaps an indication of ETA for replacement/alternative
    https://www.korabel.ru/news/comments/admiral_kuznecov_budet_remontirovatsya_esche_chetyre_goda.html
    Repair of the heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov is scheduled to be completed in the fourth quarter of 2022. About it reports Mil.Press FlotProm with reference to the Deputy Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Alexei Krivoruchko.

    "In the framework of the fulfillment of the state defense order in 2018, the Ministry of Defense of Russia concluded a state contract with the joint stock company Zvezdochka Center for the restoration of technical readiness with separate modernization works of the heavy aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov with a date for completion of obligations under the contract in the fourth quarter of 2022 "- quoted by Interfax . Alexei Krivoruchko speech on a conference in the Defense Ministry

    on the ship will be improved with electricity Stem, and air defense weapons radio engineering. Also replace and improve the elements of the main power plant. Repair of the subject and means which provide wing operation.
    Apparently it had the screws off & will need a drydocking to get them back on.
    Possibly shafts absent too which gives some credence to unplanned but I should think its no big issue to have patched/blocked the hole for a planned withdrawal.


    PD-190. Novorossyisk.
    Among other things they're looking at possibility of moving it to Murmansk https://topwar.ru/149684-v-murmansk-mogut-perevesti-plavdok-pd-190-iz-novorossijska.html
    But its about the same age as PD-50 & apparently in pretty bad condition, it'd be pretty likely to sink in transition I think.
    (Edit: sounds like a minor miracle PD-190 hasn't sunk first)

    PPL at Balancer claiming to be locals of Murmansk hold with the claim that it was a planned withdrawal from the drydock, something went wrong, attempts were made to bring it under control but eventually when it went down it was very quick & with big noise probably from crane falling.

    Quite a bit of interest in how the crane managed to get where it landed, the base is normally well below the deck of K so there must have been quite a lot of heel on the dock with at least that corner raised quite high.
    It seems a very lucky that K has apparently come out largely undamaged, could easily have been a writeoff or outright sunk.

    Edit2: newer pics
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 9 13-6866573-1532671431
    Something fenced off, maybe the hole in the deck?
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 9 13-6866573-1532671746
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 9 13-6866573-1532672163
    Kinda curious about how rusty the bow is, it was all fresh painted for the trip to Syria.
    Paint stripped back to metal or new panels put in?

    Edit3: back in 2016 there was a plan to expand/rework Zvezdochka basin to fit K for refit https://vpk.name/news/157029_pod_avianosec_admiral_kuznecov_postroyat_unikalnyii_dok.html
    Murmansk Ship Repair Plant - "35 SRZ" Zvezdochka Ship Repair Center JSC (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, USC) is starting preparations for the modernization of the only 1143 "Admiral Kuznetsov" heavy aircraft carrier in the Russian fleet. Valery Polovinkin, advisor to the general director of the Federal State Unitary Enterprise Krylov State Research Center (KGNTs), will conduct a unique operation at the plant to combine two dock chambers into one unit. This will create the country's largest aemy pool "in length 400 and a width of 80 meters, able to accept not only warships, but also civil court virtually any displacement.

    “Today, these chambers are separated by a concrete wall, on which are located multi-ton port cranes, other technological equipment necessary for the repair of ships,” Valery Polovinkin told Izvestia. - In addition, the docks have different lengths and widths. A roof can be built that will allow work to be conducted year-round. According to the plans, the wall will be demolished, the length of the docks is equalized to 400 m, a new mooring wall will be built with technological and port equipment. This solution will allow not only supplying the aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov for modernization, but also serving ships of any class. For example, nuclear-powered icebreakers of the type "Arctic" under construction at the Baltic plant. In terms of their dimensions, they do not belong to any dry dock in the region.
    Doesn't really make sense though, there's only 1 basin there & its nowhere near 400m long, only barely big enough for Ustinov refit.
    They'd have to extend the existing basin right across the rail grid area which would either put 2 of the existing sheds out of work or require some serious fenangling. Or extend it out into the bay.
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 9 66_big

    Side-point: I discovered that Zvezdochka & Severodvinsk basins work totally different than I thought.
    I previously assumed they're just really big drydocks but it always surprised me how high Nakhimov & Vikramaditya before it look in photos, figured its some kind of perspective trick or they haul the hull higher somehow but no, there are walls around the basins, they fill the basin way above groundlevel Cool
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:22 pm

    They have to sink to work...
    And now this 1 has sunk completely. In any case, it created more work & $ loss since it must be replaced/salvaged/repaired.
    They can be moved but that's not done often even inside the harbor;
    in the long run it's more feasible & was planned to have basins connected/dug up on shore:
    https://vpk.name/news/157029_pod_avianosec_admiral_kuznecov_postroyat_unikalnyii_dok.html
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    Post  mnztr Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:39 pm

    I am not sure why those clowns ran the dock in such deep water, they should have prepared and underwater platform so that there was no chance of the dock sinking.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:56 pm

    Meanwhile... Norways new submarine makes its first descent.

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 9 Ezgif-1-a62e3c748b01

    So funny....   thumbsup   NATOstani MFers...


    Last edited by Big_Gazza on Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:13 pm

    Still laughing...  unrelated theme, but heck, when your enemies are flat on their face with a broken bottle shoved up their rears, its time to keep the mirth going...

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 9 B376dc3ea8a9fc03e3cd7d0614b479c4e43ccc15248b6751d417e791e0a28608

    Life is good!  Very Happy

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    Post  Isos Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:51 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Meanwhile...  Norways new submarine makes its first descent.

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 9 Ezgif-1-a62e3c748b01

    So funny....   thumbsup   NATOstani MFers...

    It detected a suspect russian sub ! Just checking the radars underwater to found those damn russians that penetrated international nato waters lol1 lol1 lol1
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    Post  mnztr Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:55 pm

    The NATO frigate will cost more then the entire repair for Kuznetsov plus about 5 new floating docks. Seriously that frigate is trashed, it will cost more to fix then to build a new one. Only reason to fix it is they cannot get govt to approve a new one so they will spend about 700M to fix a 500M ship
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:33 am

    Perhaps they could salvage & give/sell it to Taiwan "as is"- or just break it up for parts & scrap.
    That's what happens when u go close to Northern Russian neighborhood!
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    Post  mnztr Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:37 am

    Taiwan has a better and larger navy then Norway... some pretty advanced missiles as well
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:05 am

    If they could fix it up, still better than those ex-USN FFGs!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Hazard_Perry-class_frigate

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