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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

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    kumbor

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    Post  kumbor on Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:44 pm

    hoom wrote:I saw a suggestion the new ones are auto/electronically controlled? Counter suggestion that was cancelled & its Russian made version of same model.

    Supposedly a big part of the issue K & Sovrmennys have had is complex manual control & inexperienced/low motivation operators -> electronic control would help keep stuff burning optimally.

    I think it would be the foolest thing not to put ALL 8 new boilers. Boiler KVG-3 has lifespan of some 100.000 hours and that is some 11 years of non-stop heating. Problem is that in 90s Russians did not use proper purified water - they often used simple potable water as boiler water, and these boilers are very sensitive to any impurity and residues. Also, they need very skilfull complement to operate them, especially when often changing steaming conditions. All that Russians lacked in 90s.
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    Post  hoom on Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:56 pm

    Wow, apparently during un-docking the drydock sank, crane hit K & did some damage but apparently mostly ok, possibly some injury/deaths on the drydock.

    Edit:
    http://www.mvestnik.ru/newslent/socseti-v-roslyakove-vo-vremya-vyhoda-avianosca-admiral-kuznecov-zatonul-plavuchij-dok/
    At the 82nd shipyard in Roslyakov, the floating dock PD-50 sank, users of social networks report citing factory workers. There are people injured.

    It is reported that on the night of October 30, during the departure of the aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov from the dock, an emergency occurred. As a result, the dock itself sank, and a tower crane fell on the aircraft carrier. Information also appeared on the four victims. According to unconfirmed reports, workers could get into the water.

    According to the relatives of one of the workers, a rescue operation is underway. Alarm services have been pulled to the scene.

    http://www.mvestnik.ru/newslent/postradavshih-pri-zatoplenii-doka-v-roslyakovo-dostavili-v-bolnicu-s-pereohlazhdeniem/
    The victims of the partial flooding of the floating dock in Roslyakovo were taken to hospital. In total at the moment it is reported about four victims. All of them got hypothermia, and one person also suffered an abdominal injury. This was announced by the head of the Murmansk Territorial Disaster Medicine Center, Viktor Rogalev.

    The floating dock PD-50 in Murmansk, where the aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov is being repaired, partially sank at night on October 30 .

    The source of the TASS agency in the emergency services said that the workers who had fallen as a result of the incident in the Kola Bay were saved.
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    Post  kumbor on Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:35 am

    hoom wrote:Wow, apparently during un-docking the drydock sank, crane hit K & did some damage but apparently mostly ok, possibly some injury/deaths on the drydock.

    Edit:
    http://www.mvestnik.ru/newslent/socseti-v-roslyakove-vo-vremya-vyhoda-avianosca-admiral-kuznecov-zatonul-plavuchij-dok/
    At the 82nd shipyard in Roslyakov, the floating dock PD-50 sank, users of social networks report citing factory workers. There are people injured.

    It is reported that on the night of October 30, during the departure of the aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov from the dock, an emergency occurred. As a result, the dock itself sank, and a tower crane fell on the aircraft carrier. Information also appeared on the four victims. According to unconfirmed reports, workers could get into the water.

    According to the relatives of one of the workers, a rescue operation is underway. Alarm services have been pulled to the scene.

    http://www.mvestnik.ru/newslent/postradavshih-pri-zatoplenii-doka-v-roslyakovo-dostavili-v-bolnicu-s-pereohlazhdeniem/
    The victims of the partial flooding of the floating dock in Roslyakovo were taken to hospital. In total at the moment it is reported about four victims. All of them got hypothermia, and one person also suffered an abdominal injury. This was announced by the head of the Murmansk Territorial Disaster Medicine Center, Viktor Rogalev.

    The floating dock PD-50 in Murmansk, where the aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov is being repaired, partially sank at night on October 30 .

    The source of the TASS agency in the emergency services said that the workers who had fallen as a result of the incident in the Kola Bay were saved.

    Is Kuznetsov damaged?
    The dock sank partially or fully. j suppose that the dock has water ballast tanks for trimming. So, it sank, or ballast tanks were accidentally flooded?
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    Post  hoom on Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:41 am

    With a crane falling on it presumably its somewhat damaged, not found any pics yet.

    Apparently bad weather caused power outage -> pumps stopped -> uncontrolled flooding https://vz.ru/news/2018/10/30/948377.html
    The representative of the Zvezdochka Center for Ship Repair, Yevgeny Gladyshev, called the preliminary reason for the “unsuitable immersion” of the floating dock PD-50, in which the aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov was under repair.

    According to Gladyshev, the reason for the “unsuitable immersion in water” of the floating dock PD-50 was the shutdown of pumps caused by a surge in the electrical network on the shore during the operation of “Admiral Kuznetsov” on the water, reports TASS .

    According to incoming information, power outages in a number of areas of Murmansk occurred due to bad weather, which caused accidents on power lines.

    The representative of the Ship Repair Center has not yet been able to clarify whether the dock is damaged.

    According to a source in the emergency services, the launch of the aircraft-carrying cruiser from the floating dock was planned, the towing of “Admiral Kuznetsov” to the regular parking place at the 35th ship repair plant in Murmansk was being prepared.

    Meanwhile, the medical unit "Sevryba" reported that two of the four victims of the flooding of the floating dock independently went home, another one in intensive care.

    Tass says hull & deck damage https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/5735802
    The crane, which fell from the sunken afloat PL-50, damaged the hull and takeoff deck of the aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov. This was announced by the head of USC.

    At the same time, the TASS source in the operational departments clarified that "the fallen crane is still there, the scale of damage is being clarified."

    According to the agency interlocutor, divers will inspect the underwater part of the aircraft carrier's hull during the day to make sure that it is not damaged.
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    Post  Hole on Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:52 am

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 5 Mpiagr10
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    Post  hoom on Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:28 am

    Yeah looks likely to be fairly superficial damage from that.

    Looks like it landed between the rear lift & the kinzhal/kashtan area so probably only deck/arrestor gear damage though the arm could have landed awkwardly on the other side.
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:07 pm

    [size=49]A crane has fallen onto the aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov, the flagship of the Russian Navy undergoing a refitting overhaul in Murmansk, leaving a hole above the waterline that measures 4 by 5 meters, said Alexei Rakhamnov, the head of Russia's United Shipbuilding Corporation.[/size]
    [size=49]"The crane that fell left a hole 4 by 5 meters. But at the same time these are structures that are repaired easily and quickly," Rakhmanov told reporters on Tuesday, adding that the repair would cost little.[/size]
    [size=49]A spokesman for the repair plant where the vessel is docked told Sputnik that because parts of the deck were dissembled for repair and upgrade, the fallen crane dealt more damage to the equipment rather than the deck itself.[/size]
    [size=49]The vessel suffered no damage that could affect the upgrade time and was towed to a repair yard outside the 35th shipbuilding plant in Murmansk where repairs will continue.[/size]

    [size=49]https://sputniknews.com/russia/201810301069345805-admiral-kuznetsov-fallen-crane/[/size]
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:59 pm

    Details: https://iz.ru/806496/ilia-kramnik/upustili-dok-pochemu-admiral-kuznetcov-edva-ne-utonul

    Right, that early into refit/modernization they didn't need to re-float it, so it's a mishap. Electrical power must be supplied to drydock by underground/water cables to avoid it in the future. Pathetic!
    This will set back the schedule "to the right".
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:18 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Details: https://iz.ru/806496/ilia-kramnik/upustili-dok-pochemu-admiral-kuznetcov-edva-ne-utonul

    Right, that early into refit/modernization they didn't need to re-float it, so it's a mishap. Electrical power must be supplied to drydock by underground/water cables to avoid it in the future. Pathetic!
    This will set back the schedule "to the right".

    This thing was never anything more than White Elephant and status trap so overall naval capabilities won't be affected at all

    As for money, they were already wasting a pretty penny on it so little bit more is nothing

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:35 pm

    If they had the Nicolaev yard, there wouldn't be parted el. lines & resulting power outages.
    There's no guarantee that it won't happen again this winter or the next after the raise the drydock.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:27 am

    https://iz.ru/806496/ilia-kramnik/upustili-dok-pochemu-admiral-kuznetcov-edva-ne-utonul
    Wow thats a much more dire outlook cry

    So dock sank on its own when shore power lost (implies significant leaks), onboard generators have been offline unmaintained & uncrewed for years.

    K wasn't ready, valves etc open, has holes still cut in the sides -> some flooding so there must have been a significant risk of it sinking without crew action.

    Gonna presumably need K out of the water to properly fix that & K doesn't fit in Severodvinsk basin so they'll have to either raise & repair or replace the dock (was built in Sweden) before they can fix K Shocked
    May need a crash program to build a new floating dock if it can't be patched up.
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 5 2018-10-30T104944Z_1236897916_RC14CDDFBD50_RTRMADP_3_RUSSIA-MILITARY-SHIP_1
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    Post  George1 on Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:40 am

    Ηere says how the ship was saved

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3398562.html

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:45 am

    Do they have cranes powerful enough to raise the dock? If not, foreign help will be needed.
    Extra generators could be used to insure power supply. The Zvezda shipyard isn't ready yet; the PD-41 could be busy. Besides, towing the Adm. K across the NSR in winter could damage it even more.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zvezda_shipyard What a disgrace!
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:34 am

    hoom wrote:......
    Gonna presumably need K out of the water to properly fix that & K doesn't fit in Severodvinsk basin so they'll have to either raise & repair or replace the dock (was built in Sweden) before they can fix K Shocked
    May need a crash program to build a new floating dock if it can't be patched up.
    .......

    Or they could do sensible thing and just cut their losses.

    Kuznetzov barely contributed to defence of Russia at all: it did not do it's intended role, it wasn't used as anti-sub helicopter platform and not even his battery of anti-ship missiles was online.

    At most it was used for pilot training but even that is irelevant now that Russia opted for STOVL aircraft development.

    This ship has been nothing more than money sink and prestige trap: even though it was almost useless they were still holding on to it in order to maintain prestige and reputation but it was failure even in that department because they were losing prestige simply by operating this ship.

    They should use this opportunity to cut her loose and redirect funds into more worthwhile and usable platforms.

    They may lose some reputation in the process but it's nothing compared to how much they lost already because of this ship and how much more they would lose if they continue holding on to her.



    Tsavo Lion wrote:Do they have cranes powerful enough to raise the dock? If not, foreign help will be needed. ....

    Good luck finding one.

    And even if they do then this prestige boat will cost them even more prestige...
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    Post  JohninMK on Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:52 am

    Very sobering article.

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/24572/russias-dry-dock-accident-could-have-far-larger-repercussions-than-a-damaged-carrier
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:32 am

    At most it was used for pilot training but even that is irrelevant now that Russia opted for STOVL aircraft development.
    They'll need her as evaluation & training platform for STOVLs too, if nothing else is ready by then.
    Eventually they plan to have CATOBAR CVNs & so still need such ship for training & real world deployments. Perhaps they could buy a drydock in China.
    OTH, considering the $ already spent & the $ needed to scrap her w/o a drydock for it, perhaps they could sell her to India or Brazil.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:31 am

    Do they have cranes powerful enough to raise the dock? If not, foreign help will be needed. ....
    Its surely too big to raise with cranes, I presume raising it would involve patching underwater strapping on additional pontoons before pumping it out.

    But its pretty old, maybe better to scrap it & build a new one.
    I figure a floating drydock should be a pretty good candidate for building in sections elsewhere & linking together onsite.
    PD-50 is old enough they should have been planning for a replacement soon anyway.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:21 am

    They better build a bathtub like this on shore instead:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dry_Dock_No._5_-_looking_southeast_-_NARA_-_299597.jpg

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    Post  hoom on Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:59 am

    They've already got the Severodvinsk basin.
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 5 1116fa4a70d8bfdbe01b0c36366935eb
    But apparently the entrance isn't wide enough for K & Nakhimov doesn't seem likely to vacate its spot for a while yet.
    Maybe rebuilding the entrance would be quickest/easiest way to restore large drydock capability but it'd still be a big job.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:33 am

    The Nakhimov could spend a few years in the water; the Russians have as much ingenuity as sloppiness, so widening the entrance is cheaper & faster than salvaging the sunken drydock or building a new 1.
    https://www.bbc.com/russian/features-46040923
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:48 am

    Well that just tells you everything you need to know...

    A Minor mishap and scrap a perfectly good ship...

    With friends like you guys who needs enemies?

    They upgraded her and sent her to Syria for tests... now they are giving her a more substantial overhaul, including her engines a good going over or replacement and they have a minor accident and you guys want to scrap her?

    Are you retarded?

    Seriously are you retarded?

    Ohhh, no it has a small easily fixed scratch on its side... lets get rid of it... some of you guys are pathetic. Suspect
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    Post  hoom on Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:42 am

    I figure a floating drydock should be a pretty good candidate for building in sections elsewhere & linking together onsite.
    According to ppl at Balancer these big floating docks are built with the floor in several detachable sections & maintenance is done by dropping one out & bringing it aboard the dock.

    So assuming its not an outright wreck the dock could be broken into the smaller bits, each bought to the surface & repaired separately then put back together on the water (assembly from bits might not be all that easy but I feel its doable).
    Sides are a single piece but being fairly simple boxes should be no big issue to cut if needed for raising & then join back together/new sections built during repair.

    Edit: via BMPD comments US recently got an 80,000ton floating drydock built in China for only $40mil, apparently only took a year from order to delivery
    http://www.hegerdrydock.com/projects/floating12.html
    Thats a US supplied design but I'm sure China wouldn't be above providing a slightly modified version/Russia could provide appropriate design.

    Edit2: Last year Piraeus (Greece) also recieved an 80,000ton Chinese built floating dock.
    https://www.amna.gr/en/anaxinhua/article/165691/Cosco-to-transport-new-floating-dry-dock-to-Perama-ship-repair-zone
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    Post  kumbor on Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:30 pm

    hoom wrote:
    I figure a floating drydock should be a pretty good candidate for building in sections elsewhere & linking together onsite.
    According to ppl at Balancer these big floating docks are built with the floor in several detachable sections & maintenance is done by dropping one out & bringing it aboard the dock.

    So assuming its not an outright wreck the dock could be broken into the smaller bits, each bought to the surface & repaired separately then put back together on the water (assembly from bits might not be all that easy but I feel its doable).
    Sides are a single piece but being fairly simple boxes should be no big issue to cut if needed for raising & then join back together/new sections built during repair.

    Edit: via BMPD comments US recently got an 80,000ton floating drydock built in China for only $40mil, apparently only took a year from order to delivery
    http://www.hegerdrydock.com/projects/floating12.html
    Thats a US supplied design but I'm sure China wouldn't be above providing a slightly modified version/Russia could provide appropriate design.

    Edit2: Last year Piraeus (Greece) also recieved an 80,000ton Chinese built floating dock.
    https://www.amna.gr/en/anaxinhua/article/165691/Cosco-to-transport-new-floating-dry-dock-to-Perama-ship-repair-zone

    Floating docks are built in sections, that`s true, but these sections are welded to each other. Docks are not self-propelled, so they are not ships, but floating objects. Docks have compressors and pumps to flood sections in order that ships are entered.
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    Post  Nibiru on Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:55 pm

    Perhaps they could buy a drydock in China.

    Can't Russia just build a new improved drydock? how many more decades will it take for Russia to be able to built its own shipyards/ facilities without relying on foreign products or expertise.
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    Post  kumbor on Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:13 pm

    Nibiru wrote:
    Perhaps they could buy a drydock in China.

    Can't Russia just build a new improved drydock? how many more decades will it take for Russia to be able to built its own shipyards/ facilities without relying on foreign products or expertise.

    Russia is surely able to build its own shipyards. All shipyards in USSR were indigeniously built. Some critical equipment in 80s were bought in Japan (state of the art Toshiba CNC tooling machines and CAD/CAM equipment) and in Finland (giant gantry travelling cranes of 1.000 tons capability). USSR/Russia wasn`t able to build such electronics and computerised machines. Finland was famous for its Wartsila built auxiliary ships for USSR navy, as well as shipyard cranes. Today we live in the age of globalised economy. Some items you produce locally, while some are bought on the market, from countries and companies which can make them faster, better and/or cheaper. I bet that much of the equipment in USA shipyards are today also made in China, Korea, Japan, or elsewhere.

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