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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Nov 12, 2023 11:02 pm

    But I heard that since it's classified as TAVKR, i.e. "Heavy AViation Missile CRuiser" not a true aircraft carrier, it can enter the Black Sea.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 13, 2023 12:40 am

    runaway wrote:

    I cant see any reason whatsoever to send the Kuz into the black sea, the naval dockyards that built her are long gone and land based aircraft cover the enitre area easy. She would be a sitting duck with no value.
    The Kuznetsov and Admiral Nakhimov would be of much value in the middle east now, not in docks or waiting repairs.

    I know she has probably new boilers and engines, and a new catapult, arrest wires and electronics. But a CV without a good airwing is not much worth, and i havent read anything about the MiG-29K or naval SU-35. The SU-33 is a old design and the airframes have reached end of life.

    There is little chance that Russia will not get back Odessa and Nikolaev.
    It is true that the 3 large shipyards in Nikolaev are ruined, but they were in optimal location for shipbuilding. Furthermore people there will need employment and bringing back both civilian and naval ship construction will do wonder to win the hearts of the locals.

    So I really believe that those shipyards will be rebuilt.
    Furthermore it will be useful for Russia to have a large shipyard capable of repairing a carrier near to the Mediterranean sea.

    Anyway there are not many places where to build a carrier and Zvezda shipyard is way too busy with civilian orders. I believe they would much prefer taking control of the large civilian shipyard in the south of nikolaev (Okean shipyard) after it is rebuilt in order to help fulfilling their contracts than to build supercarriers in the far East.

    So maybe next overhaul for Kuz will be done in its birthplace.

    I still think that even next russian carrier will be a TAVKR, ("Heavy AViation Missile CRuiser") and it will be probably similar as a concept to the Ulyanovsk aircraft carrier.

    As far as the air wing, at the moment the easiest solution would be the Mig-29k modernised to Mig35 standard. I believe eventually there could be a carrier derivative of the Su-57, but it is not a priority.
    A proper carrier borne refueling aircraft and a carrier borne AEW aircraft are more important.

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    runaway
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    Post  runaway Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:47 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    runaway wrote:

    I cant see any reason whatsoever to send the Kuz into the black sea, the naval dockyards that built her are long gone and land based aircraft cover the enitre area easy. She would be a sitting duck with no value.
    The Kuznetsov and Admiral Nakhimov would be of much value in the middle east now, not in docks or waiting repairs.

    I know she has probably new boilers and engines, and a new catapult, arrest wires and electronics. But a CV without a good airwing is not much worth, and i havent read anything about the MiG-29K or naval SU-35. The SU-33 is a old design and the airframes have reached end of life.

    There is little chance that Russia will not get back Odessa and Nikolaev.
    It is true that the 3 large shipyards in Nikolaev are ruined, but they were in optimal location for shipbuilding. Furthermore people there will need employment and bringing back both civilian and naval ship construction will do wonder to win the hearts of the locals.

    So I really believe that those shipyards will be rebuilt.
    Furthermore it will be useful for Russia to have a large shipyard capable of repairing a carrier near to the Mediterranean sea.

    Anyway there are not many places where to build a carrier and Zvezda shipyard is way too busy with civilian orders. I believe they would much prefer taking control of the large civilian shipyard in the south of nikolaev (Okean shipyard) after it is rebuilt in order to help fulfilling their contracts than to build supercarriers in the far East.

    So maybe next overhaul for Kuz will be done in its birthplace.

    I still think that even next russian carrier will be a TAVKR, ("Heavy AViation Missile CRuiser") and it will be probably similar as a concept to the Ulyanovsk aircraft carrier.

    As far as the air wing, at the moment the easiest solution would be the Mig-29k modernised to Mig35 standard. I believe eventually there could be a carrier derivative of the Su-57, but it is not a priority.
    A proper carrier borne refueling aircraft and a carrier borne AEW aircraft are more important.

    I would say its all but certain Russia will take both Odessa and Nikolaev, its a must to secure crimea as seen by how Nato attack it with missiles and drones all the time.
    Of course it would be good to be able to service Kuznetsov there, but to have this shipyard rebuilt and have personel trained is many years ahead in future. So yes they would like the Kuz retains its status as TAVKR to fulfill the montreux convention.

    Yes i agree, a a carrier borne AEW aircraft is essential and should be prio 1. I think the SU33 is retired so the MiG29K will be the airwing for quite some time.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 13, 2023 1:18 pm

    its really only useful for usuks. But the escort ships have plenty of these, and launching missiles when you airwing is operating is not a great idea...

    The launch hatches are just behind the front launch positions so in the near future you could open a hatch and launch a 1,000km range Zircon missile that flys at 3km/s to its target... when the hatch closes you can launch aircraft... not a huge problem.

    Having an extra 16-24 missiles on board the Carrier is useful some times... you could launch two planes from the front two launch positions and once they are in the air a hatch can flip up and launch some missiles if you need to.

    Actually I am not really sure what value they would add in the Med, I would say having them operate in other places would be more useful... a visit to Venezuela and Cuba and even Argentina might be a good thing to distract the US away from Ukraine and Taiwan and Israel... stretch them away from the things they are clearly too focussed on right now.

    But a CV without a good airwing is not much worth, and i havent read anything about the MiG-29K or naval SU-35. The SU-33 is a old design and the airframes have reached end of life.

    The MIG-29K can carry pretty much all the air to air missiles the Su-35 can carry and more importantly can use its radar and IRST to detect targets that their new ships can then engage. The MiG-29K essentially acting like an A-50 for the S-400 and S-350 based missiles on Russian ships so targets at low altitudes can be engaged using target information from the fighters.

    We have been over this It is an Aircraft carrier and is banned from traversing the straight by Turkey as per the agreement.

    That is the other issue. The whole point of the Kuznetsov is to provide air power in places where they lack air power. They have fighters in Russia that cover the Black Sea and they can have fighters in Syria that can engage targets in the Med too, so you really don't need an aircraft carrier there.

    The US has carriers there because any aircraft they based in Israel might be attacked by Hamas and they are not able to base their fighters in Turkey or Egypt or Jordan or Iraq.

    They need to use carriers to have air power close by.

    But I heard that since it's classified as TAVKR, i.e. "Heavy AViation Missile CRuiser" not a true aircraft carrier, it can enter the Black Sea.

    It is but currently Turkey has said that while the conflict is going on in the Ukraine then Russian ships not based in the Black Sea Fleet cannot pass.

    I believe they would much prefer taking control of the large civilian shipyard in the south of nikolaev (Okean shipyard) after it is rebuilt in order to help fulfilling their contracts than to build supercarriers in the far East.

    Rebuilding the shipyard to the point  where it can work on aircraft carriers is not going to happen fast... there are going to be a lot of things they will need to do in Ukraine, including UXO disposal and rebuilding housing and infrastructure first before they look at shipyards.

    I suspect their northern and far eastern shipyards will be expanded and improved first because they don't have the bottleneck of the med.

    Yes i agree, a a carrier borne AEW aircraft is essential and should be prio 1. I think the SU33 is retired so the MiG29K will be the airwing for quite some time.

    AFAIK they will keep the Su-33s until a replacement is ready for it... the idea is that the upgraded Su-33s have flight range and payload advantages, but also having MiGs there has the advantage that they are smaller so you carry more aircraft, but also because the MiGs are single and two seat capable you can use them for training so you don't need the Su-25 trainers any more which frees up even more space with trainers that are fully operational capable weapons of war.

    With TVC engines they would be very potent dog fighters too.

    They do have helicopter based AEW, but obviously fixed wing AWACS would be better.
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:10 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:But I heard that since it's classified as TAVKR, i.e. "Heavy AViation Missile CRuiser" not a true aircraft carrier, it can enter the Black Sea.

    I have debated this with you before, the treaty defines a carrier as any ship with the facilities and equipment to support airplanes.

    The russians can designate the thing whatever the hell they want, doesn't change the fact it has everything a carrier needs to be a carrier and was purpose built has a carrier, so its falls under the treaty.

    Its a carrier pure and simple
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:17 pm

    ...and it would be a total waste to operate it in the Black Sea.

    runaway wrote:I think the SU33 is retired so the MiG29K will be the airwing for quite some time.

    The Su-33's are not retired and the airframes seem to be in very good shape. It was introduced into service in 1998. The FA-18E/F's entered service one year later and they are still operational.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 13, 2023 2:59 pm

    Mir wrote:...and it would be a total waste to operate it in the Black Sea.

    runaway wrote:I think the SU33 is retired so the MiG29K will be the airwing for quite some time.

    The Su-33's are not retired and the airframes seem to be in very good shape. It was introduced into service in 1998. The FA-18E/F's entered service one year later and they are still operational.

    It does not have to operate in the black sea, but to operate in the Mediterranean or in the Persian sea it is easier to have supporting shipyard in the black sea

    GarryB wrote:I suspect their northern and far eastern shipyards will be expanded and improved first because they don't have the bottleneck of the med.

    True, but the shipyards in the black sea have much better weather conditions and are 365 days /year ice free.

    GarryB wrote:
    Yes i agree, a a carrier borne AEW aircraft is essential and should be prio 1. I think the SU33 is retired so the MiG29K will be the airwing for quite some time.

    I would really like to see a new concept based on the yak-44, possibly with new PD-8S turboprops or with propfan engines with the gearbox and propellers of the D-27 engine (Zaporozhye engine, but those parts were made by russian Aerosila) and with the core of the PD-8S
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Mon Nov 13, 2023 3:18 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:It does not have to operate in the black sea, but to operate in the Mediterranean or in the Persian sea it is easier to have supporting shipyard in the black sea

    That is true yes, but although they don't have a shipyard in the Med they do have some naval facilities there for support.
    As far as the Persian Gulf goes...not going to happen. But never say "never" Laughing
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 13, 2023 4:00 pm

    Mir wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:It does not have to operate in the black sea, but to operate in the Mediterranean or in the Persian sea it is easier to have supporting shipyard in the black sea

    That is true yes, but although they don't have a shipyard in the Med they do have some naval facilities there for support.
    As far as the Persian Gulf goes...not going to happen. But never say "never" Laughing

    As far as I understand, in the russian base in Syria there is the possibility of minor repair and replenishment for some ships, but I doubt that they could actually service ships larger than a udaloy class, much less an aircraft carrier.

    Possibly they will build a naval base in Somalia or use some naval facilities there for replenishment operations (again it is not clear if those facilities will be large enough to allow docking of an aircraft carrier) but this is not the kind of facilities that they would have on a proper large shipyard, especially if this shipyard is in russian lands (as Nikolaev was and will be).

    I know that it will require time to have the black sea shipyard in Nikolaev in a decent state, but it has been completely rebuilt already after the nazi occupation (who destroyed completely the shipyard before abandoning the city) and it can be done again.

    Furthermore it will be important for Russia to have a large shipyard available for supercarriers and other class of military ships there (plus one in the north of the city for frigates and destroyers and one south from the city for large civilian ships) without having to fight for resource and space availability with the building of supertankers i.e. in Zvezda in the far East.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Mon Nov 13, 2023 5:26 pm

    I absolutely agree 100% with what you say but when they build the next gen Russian carrier it will either be in the Zvezda- or Sevmash shipyard.

    However Nikolayev could be rebuild for series construction if it was required.

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Nov 13, 2023 6:52 pm

    Assuming they capture that shipyard it will take years to get it into an operational state, so I wouldn't count on it for a very very long time.

    The russians are not also going to build major naval ports around the world they do not have the land rights to,

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 13, 2023 7:31 pm

    Mir wrote:I absolutely agree 100% with what you say but when they build the next gen Russian carrier it will either be in the Zvezda- or Sevmash shipyard.

    However Nikolayev could be rebuild for series construction if it was required.
    Possibly, but Zvezda is now the main shipyard for building supertankers and until now they had no military orders. As far as Sevmash, they have the experience with the modification to the carrier for the Indians, but it is also currently the only shipyard which is making nuclear submarines (both SSN / SSGN and SSBN submarines)

    Earlier also Amur shipyard in the far East and Krasnoye Sormovo in Nizhny Novgorod built nuclear attack submarines but now they moved to other kind of products:
    • surface ships like corvettes and possibly frigates for the Amur shipyard,
    • And mainly civilian ships for Krasnoye Sormovo, even if it is a pity, also considering their experience with titanium hulls (by the way, Krasnoye Sormovo expressed interest in restarting there production of diesel submarines, currently only produced at the admiralty shipyard in Sankt Petersburg).


    Building a carrier in Sevmash would mean to delay nuclear submarine production.

    It could actually be worth to wait a few years until some of the rebuilding work is completed at the black sea shipyard. They could also have cooperation between the Sevmash shipyard, the 35th Ship Repair Plant in Murmansk (which performed the last overhaul) and the Zaliv shipyard in Kerch (which is building 2 helicopter assault ships and which is also quite close to Nikolaev).

    I doubt, anyway, that a new carrier will be started before 5 years (they need to build a decent amount of destroyers before that) and by that time the shipyards in Nikolaev will have been rebuilt.

    Who knows, maybe they will first start with something smaller and easier like the modified Ivan gren landing ship, then a couple of more helicopter carriers (transfer of production from Kerch to Nikolaev for the next serie of ships) and finally to a modern equivalent of Ulyanovsk Carrier.

    If they need a second carrier in the meanwhile possibly they could buy back former admiral gorshkov from India, in case India decides to go for a different strategy (I doubt it, but maybe some politicians could take a stupid decision).


    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Assuming they capture that shipyard it will take years to get it into an operational state, so I wouldn't count on it for a very very long time.
    That shipyard has been completely destroyed by the nazy in WW2, then rebuild and it made the largest surface ships of the Soviet navy.

    There is no chance that Russia will not take back Nikolaev and Odessa by the time the SMO is finished. If not they risk losing also Crimea and Kaliningrad.

    It will take a few years but I believe that by the end of the decade it should be ready to build massive ships, and in the meanwhile they should be able to build smaller ships there, both to build competences and to train personnel.

    Of course they need to have more controls in the contracts in comparison to the SNAFU made for the modernisation of severnaya verf.

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    The russians are not also going to build major naval ports around the world they do not have the land rights to
    Absolutely, at best they will build logistic centers, not more.

    Maybe next sets of shipyards and naval bases could be in Alaska, after it returns to be a Russian territory Laughing



    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 14, 2023 4:09 am

    I have debated this with you before, the treaty defines a carrier as any ship with the facilities and equipment to support airplanes.

    Not strictly true. At the time they wrote the agreement in the late 1800s there were no heavier than air aircraft. I seem to remember (without check... which is always a stupid thing to do) that it was revised in the 1920s when they added the definition of aircraft carriers... which were brand new at the time.

    The fact of the matter is that most ships carry aircraft... from the 1920s they had float planes mounted on launch platforms on battleships to act as spotters, these days even very small ships have facilities for helicopters and drones are going to be carried on everything moving forward now, so does a corvette with a helicopter count as an aircraft carrier?

    The actual rules state that the definition of an aircraft carrier is a ship whose sole purpose is the launch and recovery of aircraft for the means of war.

    The Kiev class ships had anti ship missiles and could operate as an armed warship. The Kuznetsov has anti ship missiles and therefore is not solely an aircraft carrier.... even the new helicopter landing ships they are building can enter the black sea as they please because they are landing ships as well as helicopter carriers.

    There is a rule about no ships allowed above 15K tons, but that only applies to ships of navies that do not have ports in the Black Sea... part of the Ukraine BS was about kicking Russia out of Sevastopol and having a HATO port there so they can spend as long as they like there... without a port they are only allowed to remain in the Black Sea for 21 days.

    ...and it would be a total waste to operate it in the Black Sea.

    But that is the real reason it wont be going there... it just is not needed there because land based air power can do everything the Kuznetsov can do and more.

    The whole purpose of an aircraft carrier is to provide air support in places you would otherwise not have it, though in this case a Russian carrier is actually optimised to defend a group of ships rather than support colonial invasions.

    The Su-33's are not retired and the airframes seem to be in very good shape. It was introduced into service in 1998. The FA-18E/F's entered service one year later and they are still operational.

    Plus the Su-33s have not had anywhere near the use that the US aircraft have... look at how many wars the US has been involved in where they sent carriers... for Russia it was only Syria.

    It does not have to operate in the black sea, but to operate in the Mediterranean or in the Persian sea it is easier to have supporting shipyard in the black sea

    I can't see Russia having its only carrier trapped in the Med or the Black Sea... their focus has shifted to the rest of the world... it makes more sense to base it in the Northern or Pacific fleet where it can operate in the Atlantic or the Pacific and visit countries to improve ties and sign contracts with.

    It is not a warship to take on all of HATO in WWIII, it is an air defence carrier to protect Russian interests in international trade during peace time... it will secure trade worth trillions of dollars for the Russian economy and will be good for the BRICS+ countries too.

    By 2030 it will probably have Su-57Ks replacing the Su-33 and the new MiG carrier based light fighter replacing the MiG-29Ks or adding to their numbers... up until now the Russian Navy has been at the back of the queue... but pretty soon Russia is going to be trying to communicate and trade with the rest of the world and they will be doing that through the ocean.

    The increased trade and relations with countries in the rest of the world will pay for improvements and probably export sales of Russian ships and subs too.

    The conflict in the Ukraine has shown the rest of the world that their stuff actually works and that they know what they are doing and how to use it effectively.

    True, but the shipyards in the black sea have much better weather conditions and are 365 days /year ice free.

    Very large enclosed shipyards and some icebreakers can fix that.

    I would really like to see a new concept based on the yak-44, possibly with new PD-8S turboprops or with propfan engines with the gearbox and propellers of the D-27 engine (Zaporozhye engine, but those parts were made by russian Aerosila) and with the core of the PD-8S

    Agree, but they might have some other clever idea up their sleeve too. I have mentioned multiple times that an AWACS does not need to be fast but flying high with big antenna space and long endurance are important factors which I think favour airships for the role.

    Thinking outside the box is not a bad thing. Modern composites could make it very light but also very strong structurally, and it could be designed to be largely fire proof, and with fuel cell technology being able to change your buoyancy without dumping ballast or releasing lifting gas would make it rather self sufficient.

    You could put a dehumidifier in it to gather fuel and ballast in flight... and solar panels can contribute to onboard power too.

    As far as I understand, in the russian base in Syria there is the possibility of minor repair and replenishment for some ships, but I doubt that they could actually service ships larger than a udaloy class, much less an aircraft carrier.

    My understanding is that it was very basic, but with the conflict in Syria and a greater Russian presence it has been upgraded, but I doubt it would be suitable for supporting an aircraft carrier on a permanent basis... but I also really wonder what the carrier would actually be doing there in the long term.... protecting Syria from the west? I think it would be rather more valuable operating along major sea lanes of communication and commerce and visiting friendly countries to boost trade and good relations with them.


    I know that it will require time to have the black sea shipyard in Nikolaev in a decent state, but it has been completely rebuilt already after the nazi occupation (who destroyed completely the shipyard before abandoning the city) and it can be done again.

    As I have said before it might take a few years to decide whether it is neutral Ukrainian territory or if it wants to join the Russian Federation, and of course the west will object... which does not matter a lot but it complicates sales of things produced there to the rest of the world etc etc.

    Better to just build grain sales ports to shift grain that will now not be going through european ports any more, an a few shipyards to build civilian ships which they need in large numbers. They even have India building civilian ships for them.

    without having to fight for resource and space availability with the building of supertankers i.e. in Zvezda in the far East.

    Zvezda is a government yard... there will be no fighting.

    Why not make the super tankers in the Black Sea in their nice all year round weather?

    Possibly, but Zvezda is now the main shipyard for building supertankers and until now they had no military orders.

    To be fair they are a large shipyard that is intended to make large ships, so as the only large ships on order at the moment were the two new helicopter carriers it is no surprise they are focussed on building large commercial ships.

    As far as Sevmash, they have the experience with the modification to the carrier for the Indians, but it is also currently the only shipyard which is making nuclear submarines (both SSN / SSGN and SSBN submarines)

    Earlier also Amur shipyard in the far East and Krasnoye Sormovo in Nizhny Novgorod built nuclear attack submarines but now they moved to other kind of products:

    Do you not see the pattern?

    The do this but they both moved to this.

    When the plan changes and requirements change they can be used for different jobs... that is the way.

    Most of the shipyards in the Ukraine in the black sea are destroyed or damaged or will be if Kiev thinks it has lost... a bit of scortched earth vandalism and then run to the border with the EU.

    That is fine... most of what they had is fucked up anyway and scrapping it and building things from scratch makes rather more sense anyway.

    There is a long navy tradition in that region and Russia should take advantage of that, but they currently need more civilian ships than military and the faster they get the civilian ships the more money they will make for the Russian economy to fund an upgrade and rebuild for the armed forces including the navy.

    Maybe next sets of shipyards and naval bases could be in Alaska, after it returns to be a Russian territory

    If Russia did half of the election interference and active social engineering to change other countries in the US that the US does to the rest of the world the Alaskans might rise up like the Americans think the Siberians might rise up and rally against Washington (Moscow).

    It is not HATO expansion if they ask to join us right?

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Nov 14, 2023 10:34 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Why not make the super tankers in the Black Sea in their nice all year round weather?

    Probably they will. The large civilian shipyard south from the city of Nikolaev (Okean Shipyard), used to produce and repair large and medium civilian ships, like tankers, Superträgers and bulk carriera, also of panamax and aframax size.

    Due to the experience with civilian ships Zvezda should definitely cooperate with the new management of that shipyard once it is rebuilt.

    There was also a medium size shipyard in Kherson which can be dedicated to civilian ships after reconstruction (of course not Supertankers but there are a lot of other civilian ships that needs to be built).


    No need to destiny also the historical black sea shipyard which produced all of the Soviet union aircraft carriers to only build civilian ships once it will be rebuilt.

    P.s. maybe the advantage of having a base for the aircraft carrier in Nikolaev is that Crimea and the Saky airbase in Crimea is near.

    Saky hosts the NITKA ("Scientific testing simulator for shipborne aviation") land-based aircraft carrier training and test simulator.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:10 am

    P.s. maybe the advantage of having a base for the aircraft carrier in Nikolaev is that Crimea and the Saky airbase in Crimea is near.

    Saky hosts the NITKA ("Scientific testing simulator for shipborne aviation") land-based aircraft carrier training and test simulator.

    Now they will have two aircraft carrier simulation sites for training for carrier landings... I seem to remember reading they made one for India too for training in India as well.

    The point is that the better weather there means they can train more pilots for carriers there, but that does not follow that the carriers should be based there... their carriers would be rather more useful in the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet regions, because with the Northern Sea Route that gives them access to most of the worlds oceans...
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Nov 14, 2023 12:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    P.s. maybe the advantage of having a base for the aircraft carrier in Nikolaev is that Crimea and the Saky airbase in Crimea is near.

    Saky hosts the NITKA ("Scientific testing simulator for shipborne aviation") land-based aircraft carrier training and test simulator.

    Now they will have two aircraft carrier simulation sites for training for carrier landings... I seem to remember reading they made one for India too for training in India as well.

    The point is that the better weather there means they can train more pilots for carriers there, but that does not follow that the carriers should be based there... their carriers would be rather more useful in the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet regions, because with the Northern Sea Route that gives them access to most of the worlds oceans...

    Sorry I wrote base but I meant main carrier shipbuilding and repair yard, not base of operations.
    Of course, the carriers should be assigned to the northern and Pacific fleet.

    However a carrier will not be all the time in proper service operation.

    A large part of the time it will spend in refit and or in training operations.
    These are easier to be done in the Mediterranean than in the north.

    Also weather conditions are much better in Nikolaev than in Murmansk or Severodisnks. I believe there will be quite a bit of russian shipbuilding personnel trying to get a job there instead of In the north :p.

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