Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2251
    Points : 2235
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:They are just upset because it will be one less thing they can bitch about...

    Never any mention about how much Phantoms and B-52s smoke... it is only bad when Russian things do it...

    Then you need to read better, as I said it's nice they fixed that problem, sure I attached a bit of a joke to it.

    None of what I said was complaining.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 5177
    Points : 5171
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:39 pm

    Never any mention about how much Phantoms and B-52s smoke...
    FYI, F-4 Phantoms r gone, some still being used as UAV targets, & B-52s r being re-engined.
    Singular_Transform
    Singular_Transform

    Posts : 837
    Points : 823
    Join date : 2016-11-13

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:44 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Never any mention about how much Phantoms and B-52s smoke...
    FYI, F-4 Phantoms r gone, some still being used as UAV targets, & B-52s r being re-engined.

    And the Kuznetsov will be re-engined as well....
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27333
    Points : 27865
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:26 am

    Then you need to read better, as I said it's nice they fixed that problem, sure I attached a bit of a joke to it.

    None of what I said was complaining.

    The fact that you identify yourself as part of the group of people I was talking about says enough in itself... Have I listed the names of those in that group?

    But then to make such shallow criticisms you would need to be the sort that jumps to conclusions...

    FYI, F-4 Phantoms r gone, some still being used as UAV targets, & B-52s r being re-engined.

    Phantoms smoked heavily their entire operational lives but was barely mentioned... B-52s are even worse and have basically the same engines they entered service with in the 1950s. The fact that they might be fixing the engines for the B-52s with newer engines is possibly a solution to a problem that was rarely anything more than a passing comment. For Russian aircraft and ships however it is evidence they don't know what they are doing... even more ironic is that the RD-33 is a very solid engine that can cope with regular airflow changes including reverse airflows in tail slides and other high angle manouvers... but all that is mentioned is that they put out a little smoke in max dry thrust...

    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2251
    Points : 2235
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:17 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Then you need to read better, as I said it's nice they fixed that problem, sure I attached a bit of a joke to it.

    None of what I said was complaining.

    The fact that you identify yourself as part of the group of people I was talking about says enough in itself... Have I listed the names of those in that group?

    But then to make such shallow criticisms you would need to be the sort that jumps to conclusions...

    Considering the fact I was one of the two you where talking about, it's not jumping to a conclusion. It could have only been me and Papa, since we were the only two who said anything.

    You're an admin, act like it. Don't try and pull the deflection card when you get called out. My criticisms aren't shallow they are realistic truth, I am no fanboy so I won't sugarcoat or pretend to see the situation different then it is.

    Has I said before, I'll give Russia credit when its deserved (and I have) but I'll also criticize them when it's deserved. No country is beyond that and yes I have also done the same to my own country.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27333
    Points : 27865
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:25 am

    I specifically chose not to name any names... you have chosen two names yourself... and you can do that if you wish...

    I am not interested in making this personal... the people who act the way I am describing know who they are... I didn't think it was necessary to name names, but if I was going to name names there would be more than two on that list... I choose not to make it personal.

    Plus if you happen to look back it was more than two that "joked" about it.

    No jokes about Phantoms or B-52s though...

    And please... I am admin so I should be above that... please.

    Deflection?

    Why?

    I was talking about a bigger problem than just two or more individuals on this site, and didn't really think it was necessary to name names.

    You can keep making your stupid jokes all you like... and jokes about how long ships take to build and put into service... and how many Russian sailors die when their submarines have accidents... I wont ban you for that... but I suspect it wont reflect well on you... I am not going to stop you or anyone else being a dick...

    Certain members also hold views about race and intelligence... banning them doesn't solve anything, but removing them from the discussion narrows the discussion to the point where it becomes a circle of yes men and therefore pointless.

    Besides this is not my first experience of forums... they change and evolve over time and no matter how often the idiots get banned there is a never ending stream to replace them... not that I am suggesting you or PD are idiots... if you were it would be easy to wave the ban stick... having said that other interesting members have also moved on... I usually found Book to be interesting and informative, and TR1... and Militarov could be interesting too... but I can't stop anyone from leaving if they choose.
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2251
    Points : 2235
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:53 am

    You can keep making your stupid jokes all you like... and jokes about how long ships take to build and put into service... and how many Russian sailors die when their submarines have accidents... I wont ban you for that... but I suspect it wont reflect well on you... I am not going to stop you or anyone else being a dick...


    Okay don't be saying I make jokes about dead service members, that's making it "personal"

    When have I ever joked about Russian sailors who died from accidents? that isn't funny. Because I have never joked about that, I pointed out the fact Russians have lost more men than us in sub related accidents and they have that's a fact. if it's being a dick, saying facts sorry, then sure I am a dick.

    I respect those who died in service, So don't be trying to take any cheap shots with a topic like that alright, I am going to leave this conversation at that.
    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic

    Posts : 1319
    Points : 1311
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:18 am

    GarryB wrote:
    For Russian aircraft and ships however it is evidence they don't know what they are doing... even more ironic is that the RD-33 is a very solid engine that can cope with regular airflow changes including reverse airflows in tail slides and other high angle manouvers... but all that is mentioned is that they put out a little smoke in max dry thrust...


    Actually the latest version of that engine the RD-33MK, the one that is on the Mig29K, mig35 and possibly in the newly built Mig29M/M2, in addition to having longer service life, higher thrust and being digitally controlled, should also have solved the black smoke problem of the earlier mig29
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27333
    Points : 27865
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:28 am

    Actually the latest version of that engine the RD-33MK, the one that is on the Mig29K, mig35 and possibly in the newly built Mig29M/M2, in addition to having longer service life, higher thrust and being digitally controlled, should also have solved the black smoke problem of the earlier mig29

    Agree... but my comments are directed at trolls that think smoky engines mean anything at all.

    When it comes to performance making the engines not smoke any more would be pretty low on my list and I suspect on theirs too.

    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 5177
    Points : 5171
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:31 pm

    Some USN ships also smoked heavily, but still beat the IJN:
    https://www.thoughtco.com/uss-north-carolina-bb-55-2361550

    https://www.amazon.com/Trumpeter-Maryland-BB-46-1945-Building/dp/B010LWKN30

    Even if Adm K. will continue to smoke, if if it's not taken out of action by the Covid-19/20/21 like the CVN-71 was, it won't make much of difference for its potential enemy.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:28 am; edited 1 time in total
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 5177
    Points : 5171
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:16 am

    350M Rubles, or 4.723,353.2 USD on repairs:
     https://www.gazeta.ru/army/news/2020/08/23/14835559.shtml

    https://www.vbr.ru/banki/kurs-valut/converter/rub-usd/350000000/
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2202
    Points : 2202
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:45 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:350M Rubles, or 4.723,353.2 USD on repairs:
     https://www.gazeta.ru/army/news/2020/08/23/14835559.shtml

    https://www.vbr.ru/banki/kurs-valut/converter/rub-usd/350000000/

    Chicken feed.... So much for the K being gutted by fire and facing the scrap heap Laughing
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27333
    Points : 27865
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:59 am

    4 million USD... a quarter the price of one lead in fighter trainer (LIFT) certain members wanted to scrap the ship....

    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 2725
    Points : 2727
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  LMFS on Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:01 am

    Can someone of you make sense of this? What system are they talking about?

    Another development presented at the Army-2020 International Military-Technical Forum is a device for launching carrier-based aircraft. It was originally created for the Indian Armed Forces. But very soon the device can be found on the aircraft carrier "Admiral Kuznetsov". The contract has already been signed. The unit is virtually indestructible: it consists of 20 conversion units. It only takes 30 seconds to replace each one.

    “It provides all the characteristics declared even if two units fail. It will take no more than 30 seconds to replace a failed unit, ”explains Alexander Ivanovskiy, deputy director of the design bureau - head of the converter technology department at New ERA JSC.


    Еще одна представленная на Международном военно-техническом форуме «Армия-2020» разработка - устройство для запуска самолетов палубной авиации. Изначально его создавали для индийских Вооруженных сил. Но уже совсем скоро устройство можно будет встретить на авианосце «Адмирал Кузнецов». Контракт уже подписан. Агрегат фактически неубиваемый: состоит из 20 преобразовательных блоков. Для того чтобы заменить каждый из них, уходит всего 30 секунд.

    «Все характеристики заявленные он обеспечивает даже при выходе из строя двух блоков. Для замены вышедшего из строя блока потребуется не более 30 секунд», - объясняет заместитель директора конструкторского бюро - начальник отдела преобразовательной техники АО «Новая ЭРА» Александр Ивановский.

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/20208252040-0rrXu.html
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 27333
    Points : 27865
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:15 am

    New Era seem to be the company that is doing the electrics in ships, vessels and subs for the Russian Navy.

    Sound to me like they are offering some sort of electrical catapult system.... dare I say an EMALS that can be fitted to the Kuznetsov even though when it was designed and built it was believed to be too small to have a catapult system... mainly because there would not be enough room to carry an AWACS type fixed wing aircraft that would require a cat system to launch it.

    Perhaps a cat system could be used to launch an AEW drone with fixed wing performance in a smaller package and longer endurance and altitude performance than a helicopter?

    Should be interesting.
    avatar
    mnztr

    Posts : 756
    Points : 786
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  mnztr on Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:54 pm

    The whole concept of AWACs is evolving. Its very likely rather then the Hawkeye concept, there will be drones which are much lighter and they will just act as radar antennas. These will transmit telemetry back to the ship where the sector radar operators and computers will work to identify and cataogize threats. This can provide much greater coverage at a fraction of the operating cost. It will not need catapults. Its possible they will install CATs to increase payload of the planes.
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2251
    Points : 2235
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:30 am

    Oh that system, its a type of STOBAR catapult.

    It wouldn't make sense to put emails on this ship and the Russians do not have functional EMALS catapults.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 5177
    Points : 5171
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:12 am

    a type of STOBAR catapult

    what is it exactly, can u define it? A STOBAR CV doesn't have it, but a CATOBAR does.
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2251
    Points : 2235
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:30 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    a type of STOBAR catapult

    what is it exactly, can u define it? A STOBAR CV doesn't have it, but a CATOBAR does.

    It's based on a STOBAR system with tweaks

    It's not a purpose-built catapult system but a makeshift system similar to the Indian carrier they did, it's based on that concept, there is no proper term for it.

    Carrier launch systems need to be designed as the ship is being designed, they are not about to go back and waste time and money developing a catapult system for this ship, so they are borrowing on data from the conversion project they did for India to make a STOBAR type system for the Kuz. Which makes far more sense.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 5177
    Points : 5171
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:30 am

    AFAIK none of the Indian CVs have it. Pl. post a source showing it.
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2251
    Points : 2235
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:08 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:AFAIK none of the Indian CVs have it. Pl. post a source showing it.

    the Vikramaditya is a STOBAR....

    if you don't know that much, really not going to argue.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 5177
    Points : 5171
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:27 am

    INS Vikramaditya design and features

    The refurbished aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya is equipped with 234 new hull sections constructed using 2,500t of steel. It has an overall length of 284m, a maximum beam of 60m, height of about 60m and a displacement of 44,500t.The warship features 22 decks and 2,500 compartments, of which 1,750 were completely re-built. It can carry more than 1,600 personnel including crew. Sponsons are installed to increase the breadth at the flight deck.The modernised ship is also equipped with flight deck lighting systems, new AC plants, refrigeration plants, 14° sky jump, 30m wide arrester gears, three restraining gears, and two reverse osmosis plants for producing 400t of fresh water per day.The modifications also included replacement of 2,300km of old electrical cables with new cables, upgrades to bulbous bow, and replacement of distilling plants. The aft aircraft lift and ammunition lifts were also upgraded. [size=18]https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ins-vikramaditya-aircraft-carrier/[/size]
    The new giant warship of the Indian Navy also features a state of the art launch and recovery systems, for the smooth operation of the aircraft. It includes the LUNA Landing system for MiGs, Flight deck lighting systems and DAPS Landing system for Sea Harriers.Also, there are three arrester wires on board to help pilots for landing on the carrier. In addition, the warship is the first Indian aircraft carrier of the Short Takeoff but Assisted Recovery (STOBAR) category since it has the capacity to position the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) on its board. https://www.marineinsight.com/types-of-ships/ins-vikramaditya-%E2%80%93-the-new-air-craft-carrier-of-indian-navy/


    There's no mention of any catapult. If there was, those F-18s wouldn't need to be tested for ski jump compatibility: While both France and the US have offered their fighters, the key issue is that the western jets are designed to operate from a flat deck with the assistance of a catapult. The Indian ships do not have the catapult and rely on a ski jump for take-off. 
    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/f/a-18-super-hornet-is-compatible-with-indian-aircraft-carrier-ski-jump-tests-soon-boeing/articleshow/73983270.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

    Also, I edited this post with more links, as a coup de grace for u.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:35 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add a quote)
    avatar
    kumbor

    Posts : 297
    Points : 293
    Join date : 2017-06-09

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  kumbor on Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:29 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:

    INS Vikramaditya design and features



    The refurbished aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya is equipped with 234 new hull sections constructed using 2,500t of steel. It has an overall length of 284m, a maximum beam of 60m, height of about 60m and a displacement of 44,500t.The warship features 22 decks and 2,500 compartments, of which 1,750 were completely re-built. It can carry more than 1,600 personnel including crew. Sponsons are installed to increase the breadth at the flight deck.The modernised ship is also equipped with flight deck lighting systems, new AC plants, refrigeration plants, 14° sky jump, 30m wide arrester gears, three restraining gears, and two reverse osmosis plants for producing 400t of fresh water per day.The modifications also included replacement of 2,300km of old electrical cables with new cables, upgrades to bulbous bow, and replacement of distilling plants. The aft aircraft lift and ammunition lifts were also upgraded. [size=18]https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ins-vikramaditya-aircraft-carrier/[/size]
    The new giant warship of the Indian Navy also features a state of the art launch and recovery systems, for the smooth operation of the aircraft. It includes the LUNA Landing system for MiGs, Flight deck lighting systems and DAPS Landing system for Sea Harriers.Also, there are three arrester wires on board to help pilots for landing on the carrier. In addition, the warship is the first Indian aircraft carrier of the Short Takeoff but Assisted Recovery (STOBAR) category since it has the capacity to position the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) on its board. https://www.marineinsight.com/types-of-ships/ins-vikramaditya-%E2%80%93-the-new-air-craft-carrier-of-indian-navy/


    There's no mention of any catapult. If there was, those F-18s wouldn't need to be tested for ski jump compatibility: While both France and the US have offered their fighters, the key issue is that the western jets are designed to operate from a flat deck with the assistance of a catapult. The Indian ships do not have the catapult and rely on a ski jump for take-off. 
    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/f/a-18-super-hornet-is-compatible-with-indian-aircraft-carrier-ski-jump-tests-soon-boeing/articleshow/73983270.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

    Also, I edited this post with more links, as a coup de grace for u.

    STOBAR stands for: Short Take Off (no catapult, but a ski-jump ramp). But Assisted Landing (by use of the arrester system). Again, there is no any catapult. Clearer now!?
    avatar
    mnztr

    Posts : 756
    Points : 786
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  mnztr on Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:51 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Oh that system, its a type of STOBAR catapult.

    It wouldn't make sense to put emails on this ship and the Russians do not have functional EMALS catapults.

    How can you say that with such certainty? The concept of EMALS is quite simple, its only the US DOD that can botch it so badly to get a few billion more in development money.
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2251
    Points : 2235
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:04 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Oh that system, its a type of STOBAR catapult.

    It wouldn't make sense to put emails on this ship and the Russians do not have functional EMALS catapults.

    How can you say that with such certainty? The concept of EMALS is quite simple, its only the US DOD that can botch it so badly to get a few billion more in development money.

    They do not have EMALS they never bothered to design one, the best thing they developed was a steam-based catapult for that carrier they never finished.

    I am also confused...I simply said they do not have nor developed EMALS, when they make a new CV I am sure they will make an EMALS system for it but as of right now they do not have one.

    Sponsored content

    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 24 Empty Re: Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:40 am