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    Fate of Russia's old birds.

    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:24 am

    Mig-15, mig-17 and mig-19, su-7, IL-28 are still in service with some countries mostly as Chinese copies and in service with North Korea and African countries. Although looking at their specs, compared to modern aircraft you could say they are terrible, but if you look at things differently, yes the specs would be terrible if used as a dog fighter/ interceptor role against modern fighters, but would still pose a threat against helicopters, drones, transport aircraft, and some light aircraft. The MIG-19 has speed of up to 1.3 Mach which would give a light aircraft a headache. The slower speeds of the other aircraft ranging from 500-700mph would be decent enough for ground attack missions and this is where they could still be on use, attacking ground troops, vehicle convoy's and light buildings, and although bomb carrying capacity and targeting is very basic and fairly bad accuracy, but could still damage buildings and vehicles, their key useful weapon would be it's guns, the aircraft would be ideal for staffing runs on light armour, vehicle convoy's etc, but this is pretty much their only useful role in their limited capacity on a battlefield these days and of course that would be pretty much be limited to a low tech war such as the type of conflict facing Syria or Libya, where AD systems and threat of other aircraft is zero or very low.

    IL-28 is probably the least useful out the lot being larger, slower, lower ceiling height(40k ft), two 23mm forward facing guns and rearward facing guns and 3,000kg bomb capacity, they would be more suitable for bombing buildings, or large convoy's where threats AD are low.

    Su-7 wasnt the greatest design of fighter bomber, but did carry up to 2000kg bombs, and X2 30mm guns, a reasonable speed for bombing, decent range, and surprisingly a high ceiling height of 57k ft. These would be suited for bombing and gun runs on light armour convoy's such as IFV, APC, light tanks.

    The MIG-19 as previously mentioned the higher speed of Mach 1.3, good ceiling height of 57k ft, a small 500kg bomb load, and x3 30mm guns the guns would be ideal for troops and light vehicle convoy's, even light armour such as IFV would be vulnerable roof armour in vehicles tends to be the thinnest part of the armour (almost rear). So the tactic maybe be better to approach the convoy from the rear staffing gun runs across the rear and roof of the vehicle than front and roof approach. Only real downside to the MIG-19 is it range.

    The MIG-17 armed with 500kg bombs, x2 23mm guns, and x1 37mm gun, as above ideal for staffing runs.

    The MIG-15 armed with 100kg bomb load, x2 23mm guns and x1 37mm guns same again staffing runs.

    The latter three aircraft, are more suited for ground attack roles these days than interceptors/dog fighters, unless up against helicopters, drones, transport aircraft or basic light attack aircraft. Staffing gun runs are there key tactic and most useful weapons. The slower speeds ideal for bombing, but fast enough to make a quick break away after attacking, and their ceiling height, agility and small size goes in favour from basic AD systems such as AA gun fire and basic MANPADS, although equipping chaff would be a good idea as a basic defence. They should be fairly basic to maintain and run. And could be the difference between an enemy advancing on your position or not, or giving your advancing troops an additional fire support via air attack, or disrupting enemy convoy's and supply routes, and freeing up more capable aircraft for more sophisticated air missions. Use what you have to the best of its use strategy. I certainly wouldn't want to be sitting in a vehicle when a small squadron of these old birds come swooping in and screaming down a hail rounds, firing a decent amount of rounds down on you.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:52 am

    Finty wrote:
    Lol with tonight's AUKUS announcement, China will want all the bombers they can get, and keep!

    This made the French very unhappy - but I think this project will prove way too expensive for Australia so they may just crawl back to the French in the end?
    There is also a fairly strong anti-nuclear lobby in Australia as well - so we'll wait and see.


    Last edited by Mir on Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:20 am; edited 1 time in total
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:07 am



    Su-7 wasnt the greatest design of fighter bomber, but did carry up to 2000kg bombs, and X2 30mm guns, a reasonable speed for bombing, decent range, and surprisingly a high ceiling height of 57k ft. These would be suited for bombing and gun runs on light armour convoy's such as IFV, APC, light tanks.

    The Su-7 was originally intended as an interceptor - hence the high speed and service ceiling. It was found to be too heavy and lost out to the Mig-21. It was soon developed into the Su-7B ground attack fighter and was a pretty good for that time. It was eventually used as the basis for the much better Su-17/22's.
     
    The only country that still operates most of these aircraft that you mentioned in any significant numbers in front line service is North Korea. They seem to be able to keep most of their fighter fleet in pristine condition despite all the sanctions.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:13 pm

    Before the SAAF Museum came into being a great many very rare war birds ended up as scrap metal in South Africa. As a young boy living near two Air Force bases I personally saw rows of Spitfires, Hurricanes and Mustangs being scraped and literally torched! You are very fortunate indeed to see those old Soviet fighters flying!

    Sadly the same stupidity happened here too... lots of Hurricanes and Spitfires and other types were just buried here... unwanted, but there was so many of them they had no value.... mad...

    I would love to see at least one of each of these majestic Soviet birds back in the air

    It is interesting what changes modern technology could make to these old birds... imagine a modern more powerful but also much more efficient jet engine being used in old bombers... you couldn't get them faster than the speed of sound but you should be able to increase payload and range...

    Personally my favourite would be the ANT-25... a single engined long range record holder... flying non stop distances of over 10,000km before WWII even started.

    It was an ANT-25 landing in the US that made Congress change their mind about cancelling the B-17 programme...

    Hahaha very funny!

    BTW the first one is the tanker version of the M4 bomber from the Myasishchev OKB - so no Tupolev or Tu-16 (H-6) relation there!

    He is right that the H-6 is a Tu-16, but they certainly don't make Myasishchevs...

    Well they look the same.

    They do look similar...

    It's a bit like saying all Chinese people look the same

    To a degree a lot of them do, and I suspect they probably think white people look similar as well...

    Not racism... just shared features.

    Well at least there are some static displays of both these bombers in Russia but who knows, maybe Russia can buy one of the original H-6 bombers from China and restore it back to a flying Tu-16A?

    I would think for a one off they could build one by themselves easily enough.

    Lol with tonight's AUKUS announcement, China will want all the bombers they can get, and keep!

    They might show an interest in something newer...

    Fate of Russia's old birds. - Page 5 24289813

    IL-28 is probably the least useful out the lot being larger, slower, lower ceiling height(40k ft), two 23mm forward facing guns and rearward facing guns and 3,000kg bomb capacity, they would be more suitable for bombing buildings, or large convoy's where threats AD are low.

    Perhaps an ideal candidate for Gefest & T bombing upgrade... with newer higher thrust engines they could probably increase the payload and operational height.

    No point in trying to make it faster of course.

    The Su-7 was originally intended as an interceptor - hence the high speed and service ceiling. It was found to be too heavy and lost out to the Mig-21. It was soon developed into the Su-7B ground attack fighter and was a pretty good for that time. It was eventually used as the basis for the much better Su-17/22's.

    It was popular with its operators but did lack range and took off and landed pretty fast... which is not good.

    With swing wings they are still rather good light strike aircraft.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:16 pm

    Well they look the same.

    They do look similar...

    You two sounds like the guys on the committee where Tupolev presented the Tu22M as just a "modernization" of the Tu22 in order to secure funding for his project! Laughing

    Personally my favourite would be the ANT-25... a single engined long range record holder... flying non stop distances of over 10,000km before WWII even started.

    I saw pictures of this giant doing a flypast over Red Square - very impressive back then. I certainly do appreciate these old birds but my real interest is in developments during and after the Cold War period.

    Lol with tonight's AUKUS announcement, China will want all the bombers they can get, and keep!

    They might show an interest in something newer...

    China has a B2 lookalike prototype already and will probably start producing it in double quick time soon. Even the old H-6 in it's K version is quite formidable with the variety of very capable anti-ship missiles it can carry.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:56 pm

    One more magnificent Soviet giant!

    Fate of Russia's old birds. - Page 5 V12-ca10

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:02 pm

    I also consider upgrading old jets is a good idea like for exemple su-17 that can be just as good an su-34 at bombing and using guided missiles or the mig-23 that can be used for interception with a new radar and the newest r-77, its engine being one of the best in terms of caracteristics. Mig-25 is also a beast.

    But the older the aircraft get the deeper the modernization would need to be. And at the end it's better to just buy a new fighter that will have just better caracteristics.

    Most of soviet stuff is just too old now to be modernized. It coukd have been done in the 00s but not today.

    Restarting their production is stupid since they have production line for the newest stuff which are hundreds times better.

    Their only place is in museums.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:20 pm

    Yes I think the general idea (at least for me) is to get a few samples into flying condition for demonstration purposes. A good example is the Canadian Sabre or the British Vulcan the flew until recently. Upgrades of existing aircraft in various air forces is one thing but it would be ridiculous to restart production of any of these planes for combat purposes!

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:40 pm

    The Su-7 was originally intended as an interceptor - hence the high speed and service ceiling. It was found to be too heavy and lost out to the Mig-21. It was soon developed into the Su-7B ground attack fighter and was a pretty good for that time. It was eventually used as the basis for the much better Su-17/22's.

    It was popular with its operators but did lack range and took off and landed pretty fast... which is not good.

    That was the problem with virtually all supersonic fighters of that era. The crude engines gobbled up fuel at a huge rate, the landing speed was dangerously high and they could only takeoff from long runways. Only with more modern engines and the introduction of the variable swept wings did they solve these issues.

    As far as the Su-7 - they did produce the BKL variant with twin  braking chutes that reduced the landing run. It was also fitted with JATO rockets that shortened takeoff. What was quite interesting was the rough-field capability by fixxing skids to the sides of the main landing gear. Obviously many other aircraft also used most of these solutions as well.

    Fate of Russia's old birds. - Page 5 Su7bkl10

    ...and for those who thinks it's a Mig-21 - it's NOT Laughing

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:41 pm

    0m take off distance is also possible. Not really practical to use as a standard methode.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:00 pm

    The Soviets also played around with that and came to the same conclusion - not practical.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:20 pm

    Mir wrote:The Soviets also played around with that and came to the same conclusion - not practical.

    Yeah I know. I was looking for a video of a mig-15 or 17 or 21 don't remeber exactly the same but couldn't find it.

    IMO it doesn't really give any advantage over a normal take off because the preparation must be much longer. Maybe for the very first interception when the plane come at low altitude and are detected too late but if you have OTH radar that spot the targets 3 hours before they come into your airspace it's totally useless.
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    Post  Mir Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:26 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Yeah I know. I was looking for a video of a mig-15 or 17 or 21 don't remeber exactly the same but couldn't find it.

    The footage I saw was of a Mig-19.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:53 am

    Finty wrote:Lol with tonight's AUKUS announcement, China will want all the bombers they can get, and keep!

    They are already building all the H-6K bombers they can at a pretty fast clip. Plus they have the H-20 flying wing bomber on the pipeline. Not that it matters. Like I said elsewhere a single DF-41 MIRV can probably kill most people in SE Australia. Which is where most people in Australia live. The H-20 is for conventional power projection to the second island chain perhaps all the way to Hawaii.

    Ideas of repeats of WW2 and fighting China on their own turf are, to be frank, delusional methinks.

    Mir wrote:This made the French very unhappy - but I think this project will prove way too expensive for Australia so they may just crawl back to the French in the end?
    There is also a fairly strong anti-nuclear lobby in Australia as well - so we'll wait and see.

    No shit. The Australians just pulled their contract out basically with a non compete bid at that.
    The French could have offered a nuclear powered submarine if it came to that but the whole deal about the original competition was that the submarines had to be huge and non-nuclear.
    Plus it had to be French subs with US electronics and weapons and all built in Australia.
    If they think the French are overcharging perhaps they should look at their own requirements.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:26 am

    You two sounds like the guys on the committee where Tupolev presented the Tu22M as just a "modernization" of the Tu22 in order to secure funding for his project!

    In the sense that the F-15 has the same basic layout of the MiG-25 it was copied from.... Razz

    There might be a tanker or transport variant of the M4 somewhere in a state that could be put in a museum if not flown... and of course if you only want one it becomes more realistic than if you need dozens or hundreds because custom made parts for one is more practical than for serial production...

    Fate of Russia's old birds. - Page 5 0_cf6f13

    I saw pictures of this giant doing a flypast over Red Square - very impressive back then. I certainly do appreciate these old birds but my real interest is in developments during and after the Cold War period.

    It was big for its time but was mostly wing...

    Fate of Russia's old birds. - Page 5 Ant-2510

    I also consider upgrading old jets is a good idea like for exemple su-17 that can be just as good an su-34 at bombing and using guided missiles or the mig-23 that can be used for interception with a new radar and the newest r-77, its engine being one of the best in terms of caracteristics. Mig-25 is also a beast.

    For many countries Su-34s just cost too much and for many roles a simpler lighter cheaper type would be much better suited to many of the jobs they want done, and any western choice is simply not an option... I mean you are French... can you say with a straight face that the Rafale is good value for money?

    Typhoon and F-35 are no better... at least the Rafale is good at what it does.

    New Zealand really does not need any fighter aircraft... we are too far away from anyone anyway, but if I was in charge of a country I would be looking at the many upgrades on offer for older generation aircraft as my "low" cheap numbers aircraft and perhaps a MiG-29M/35 combo for higher tech attack/fighter/interceptor roles... or perhaps in 10 years time then the new single engined MiG and Checkmate would be something I would look at seriously.

    But honestly you put a modern engine in most 3rd gen aircraft and a modern radar with a modern self defence avionic suite and the ability to accurately use dumb weapons so that guided weapons will be standard for air to air but for air to ground they can be perhaps 10% of the inventory, then you should end up with a very affordable air fleet.

    But the older the aircraft get the deeper the modernization would need to be. And at the end it's better to just buy a new fighter that will have just better caracteristics.

    But would it?

    I am sure the Indians would have been much happier getting local production rights to the Mirage 2000 design that they could have paid for upgrade developments from France for years for, but as we all know they were told to buy Rafales at an enormous markup price.

    I agree buying Rafales is better... for France... but I wonder the influence 36 Rafales could possibly make for India.

    Restarting their production is stupid since they have production line for the newest stuff which are hundreds times better.

    In the case of Russian planes I would say starting off from a MiG-29M would give you solid aerodynamics and a better base to start from in terms of a fighter or a light strike platform, but if the customer already has older types then it might make sense to look at upgrades for those too.

    Upgrades of existing aircraft in various air forces is one thing but it would be ridiculous to restart production of any of these planes for combat purposes!

    Honestly most Air Forces have token aircraft that are really just a waste of money anyway... I mean for countries like Belgium or Switzerland... they don't need an Army in the sky.... they need a police force certainly... but something an F-16 can do perfectly adequately and cheaply... they don't need an F-35 or Typhoon or Rafale or even Super Hornet... but there is ego there as well of course.


    ...and for those who thinks it's a Mig-21 - it's NOT

    For most laymen it is difficult as some early model MiG-21s had that slimmer look around the front too, but the skin plating near the wing roots for the two 30mm cannon make it obvious it is an Su-7 or fitter family aircraft.

    Have seen plenty of western documentaries on Soviet aircraft where an Su-7 and even Su-17 was shown in a series of clips that were supposed to be showing MiG-21s.

    0m take off distance is also possible. Not really practical to use as a standard methode.

    Those solid rockets were expensive... and you needed some where to land anyway...

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:14 pm

    The Soviet's notorious airline killer!

    She definitely looked the part as a fast and furious interceptor! Smile

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007_alternative_theories

    Here are some of the alternative theories around Flight 007 and to be honest some of them makes a very good argument. My personal opinion is that the US did try to use the Korean airliner as a cover to get their own spy aircraft inside Soviet territory and that things went horribly wrong - not so much for the Soviets as for the US.

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    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:07 am

    The most comprehensive study of it seems the most logical... the aircraft had the autopilot set on the wrong heading and no one noticed... whether that was the cover and no one was supposed to notice, or it was an accident was another question but the US forces in the region certainly took advantage of the situation to collect a lot of valuable data and clearly made no attempt to contact the airliner of its mistake.

    This was all compounded by the extremely short sighted policy of South Korean Air Lines to hire ex military pilots who tended to be rash stupid idiots that tried to run when they found or were caught over Soviet Air space... whether by accident or trying to save some fuel taking a shortcut.

    It is amusing that the Soviets were branded war criminals for shooting down KAL007, but it was claimed they were incompetent for not shooting down Rust in his cessna.

    The west has never been consistent... the commander and number one officer of the Vincennes that shot down an Iranian Airbus got medals... they sailed into Iranian waters and shot down a civilian plane and got medals...

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:54 am

    Another Soviet era interceptor with a bit of a history.

    On September 6 September 1976 Victor Belenko betrayed his country when he defected to the West and landed with the then top secret Mig-25P at the Hokadate Airport in Japan.  

    Fate of Russia's old birds. - Page 5 Mig25p11

    It was a shocking experience for the Soviets but in the end it brought about some positives as well. It fast tracked both the modernization of the Mig-25 into the much improved PD interceptor version as well as the development of the far more capable Mig-31. The Mig-25PD entered service in 1979 and was fitted with more powerful R-15BD-300 engines and the new Saphir-25 Pulse-Doppler radar with look-down/shoot down capability. It was also fitted with an undernose IRST. The missile armament was also improved  and could also carry four R-60 short range air-to-air missiles replacing the outermost two R-40 missiles. Belenko's defection also cleared the way for Mig-25 exports.

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    Post  Gomig-21 Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:02 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:Hi all, wonder if anyone can share any information on what Russia has done or will do with its older fixed wing and rotary aircraft.
    for example the likes of:

    SU-17
    SU-24 (280, 70% to be replaced by SU-34)
    SU-25 (195, 80 to be upgraded)
    SU-27 (being upgraded)
    MIG-21
    MIG-23 (500 in reserve)
    MIG-25
    MIG-29

    Would you consider all of these in this chart as "older birds" in just the MiG category?  Based on your list, I see you included the MiG-29 which at first I thought might not be on that list since it's a late 70's or right about then fighter that was introduced around that time and maybe muddles the line between older & newer?  How about the MiG-31?

    Sorry about the nato names, they really get on my nerves but I can't get rid of them lol.

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    Post  Finty Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:37 pm

    MiG-29 entered service in 1983, a year after the RAF’s tornados of which some are in museums so they’re just about old enough to count. It’s a grey area.

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    Post  Mir Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:03 pm

    Finty you mentioned the Mig-23 in the Su-24 thread. Well this pic from Russianplanes.net of the prototype being assembled is one of my favourite Mig-23 pics and super rare to boot!

    Fate of Russia's old birds. - Page 5 Mig23-10

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    Post  TMA1 Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:20 pm

    Mir wrote:Finty you mentioned the Mig-23 in the Su-24 thread. Well this pic from Russianplanes.net of the prototype being assembled is one of my favourite Mig-23 pics and super rare to boot!

    Fate of Russia's old birds. - Page 5 Mig23-10

    Grown to be one of my favorite cold war aircraft. We used to make amazing planes back in the day. Ruskies could, too. I always wondered if the mig-23 had a weapons systems officer as well as a pilot if the weapons system would have been a lot more efficient and quick acting. From everything I can read it seemed like the mig 23 pilot had to do what two f4 phantom pilots were doing in their opposing aircraft.
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    Post  Isos Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:33 pm

    Good looking but it was a shitty aircraft to fly. Not really manoevrable but its accelerations were the best, impossible to catch up from the back.

    Only last variants were good. They even had a super version with r-77 and Zukh-M radar called mig-23-98.

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    Post  Mir Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:49 pm

    The Mig-23-98 never made it into production and just like the Mig21-93 it was an attempt to upgrade the aircraft closer to a 4th gen fighter - but just a lot cheaper. The Mig-23MLD was the most capable variant in service.
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    Post  Isos Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:55 pm

    Mir wrote:The Mig-23-98 never made it into production and just like the Mig21-93 it was an attempt to upgrade the aircraft closer to a 4th gen fighter - but just a lot cheaper. The Mig-23MLD was the most capable variant in service.

    Indian mig-21 are at mig-21-93 level.

    Mig-23-98 had a lot of potential. Plenty of countries operated it in great numbers. It was worth paying for it. They have 500 mig-23 in reserve they could still offer it for export to Syria and Iran.

    GarryB likes this post


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