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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    sepheronx
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  sepheronx 18/07/15, 08:12 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:So what would you guys like to see as the main rifle for Russian armed forces?  Right now, with defence budget to be slashed to 3.1% of GDP, it will probably have to be semi cheap to acquire.
    The rifle you see costs about 1K european to the civillian market a full 2K less than most rigs available at the IPSC. Mass production could end up cost about 600 euro with profit. Given the current AKM is sold about 300 euro while using mathusalem methods, this is a quite cheap offer. The CZ 805/807 has been offered at 2.2K european to the Czech MoD and about 2.9K at the Slovak MoD. Let us say that 70K rifles at 60K RUB that's 4.2 bln RUB. The price is not bad.

    You are saying that AK-15 in the pictures you posted? If that is the case, then that is a good deal.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe 19/07/15, 05:39 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:So what would you guys like to see as the main rifle for Russian armed forces?  Right now, with defence budget to be slashed to 3.1% of GDP, it will probably have to be semi cheap to acquire.
    The rifle you see costs about 1K european to the civillian market a full 2K less than most rigs available at the IPSC. Mass production could end up cost about 600 euro with profit. Given the current AKM is sold about 300 euro while using mathusalem methods, this is a quite cheap offer. The CZ 805/807 has been offered at 2.2K european to the Czech MoD and about 2.9K at the Slovak MoD. Let us say that 70K rifles at 60K RUB that's 4.2 bln RUB. The price is not bad.

    You are saying that AK-15 in the pictures you posted?  If that is the case, then that is a good deal.

    Yes the AK-15 was offered at the IPSC Euro-Champ at 1K Euro. It was also part of the event since Izhmash was one of the major Sponsors. Personally, this gun is stunning. It deserves better, has really a lot of potential and Izhmash shows to every doubter (Including me) that they can do a solid 'westernized' product with totally different values and at a far lesser cost. Was the RUB still at 38 vs. USD, the price would probably be less competitive (still VERY competitive), but now at 60K RUB for that rifle thanks to the exchange rate, the gun is a bargain...for the commoner outside Russia (yeah that exchange rate) and the US (yeah that idiotic ban).

    The other issue however is the militarization of that. Maybe the gun we see will be tweaked in order to have both the balanced action and the sturdy "upper" of the AK12. This gun can potentially solve the ZID/KC headache. And once again ZID might lose the match.
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  Werewolf 19/07/15, 05:43 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:So what would you guys like to see as the main rifle for Russian armed forces?  Right now, with defence budget to be slashed to 3.1% of GDP, it will probably have to be semi cheap to acquire.
    The rifle you see costs about 1K european to the civillian market a full 2K less than most rigs available at the IPSC. Mass production could end up cost about 600 euro with profit. Given the current AKM is sold about 300 euro while using mathusalem methods, this is a quite cheap offer. The CZ 805/807 has been offered at 2.2K european to the Czech MoD and about 2.9K at the Slovak MoD. Let us say that 70K rifles at 60K RUB that's 4.2 bln RUB. The price is not bad.

    You are saying that AK-15 in the pictures you posted?  If that is the case, then that is a good deal.

    Yes the AK-15 was offered at the IPSC Euro-Champ at 1K Euro. It was also part of the event since Izhmash was one of the major Sponsors. Personally, this gun is stunning. It deserves better, has really a lot of potential and Izhmash shows to every doubter (Including me) that they can do a solid 'westernized' product with totally different values and at a far lesser cost. Was the RUB still at 38 vs. USD, the price would probably be less competitive (still VERY competitive), but now at 60K RUB for that rifle thanks to the exchange rate, the gun is a bargain...for the commoner outside Russia (yeah that exchange rate) and the US (yeah that idiotic ban).

    The other issue however is the militarization of that. Maybe the gun we see will be tweaked in order to have both the balanced action and the sturdy "upper" of the AK12. This gun can potentially solve the ZID/KC headache. And once again ZID might lose the match.

    There is the problem... inferiority complex strikes again
    KoTeMoRe
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  KoTeMoRe 19/07/15, 05:55 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:So what would you guys like to see as the main rifle for Russian armed forces?  Right now, with defence budget to be slashed to 3.1% of GDP, it will probably have to be semi cheap to acquire.
    The rifle you see costs about 1K european to the civillian market a full 2K less than most rigs available at the IPSC. Mass production could end up cost about 600 euro with profit. Given the current AKM is sold about 300 euro while using mathusalem methods, this is a quite cheap offer. The CZ 805/807 has been offered at 2.2K european to the Czech MoD and about 2.9K at the Slovak MoD. Let us say that 70K rifles at 60K RUB that's 4.2 bln RUB. The price is not bad.

    You are saying that AK-15 in the pictures you posted?  If that is the case, then that is a good deal.

    Yes the AK-15 was offered at the IPSC Euro-Champ at 1K Euro. It was also part of the event since Izhmash was one of the major Sponsors. Personally, this gun is stunning. It deserves better, has really a lot of potential and Izhmash shows to every doubter (Including me) that they can do a solid 'westernized' product with totally different values and at a far lesser cost. Was the RUB still at 38 vs. USD, the price would probably be less competitive (still VERY competitive), but now at 60K RUB for that rifle thanks to the exchange rate, the gun is a bargain...for the commoner outside Russia (yeah that exchange rate) and the US (yeah that idiotic ban).

    The other issue however is the militarization of that. Maybe the gun we see will be tweaked in order to have both the balanced action and the sturdy "upper" of the AK12. This gun can potentially solve the ZID/KC headache. And once again ZID might lose the match.

    There is the problem... inferiority complex strikes again

    It has nothing to do with inferiority complex. Actually it's quite the contrary. In Budapest, most US competitors that shot the 15 were amazed the gun was :

    1. So light.
    2. So responsive.
    3. So accurate.
    4. So cheap.
    5. What is recoil?

    Inside the machine is 100% Beast from the East. And that's what matters. Bear in mind the chassis is fully functional. There's no gimick. Bear in mind this is a IPSC machine, there are certain rules about the gun. However I like the chassis. And unlike the former 107, there's no magwell.


    Now with the stupid ban these are going to be like 250 GTO's, worth a goldmine. Yeah Ombomba, gun salesman of the year for the 6th straight year. Nobel Peace prize winner and all.
    Werewolf
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  Werewolf 19/07/15, 07:27 am

    Not a single of those points is different from AK-74M/AK-12 or AEK-971/973.

    It is light, accurate, responsive, high controllability due the low recoil due to the use of muzzle break and they are cheaper than anything from the west.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe 19/07/15, 12:05 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Not a single of those points is different from AK-74M/AK-12 or AEK-971/973.

    It is light, accurate, responsive, high controllability due the low recoil due to the use of muzzle break and they are cheaper than anything from the west.

    Actually a lot of points are different from the 74M. The AK12 and AEK are also different in the way they're designed and who they're designed for. This is an IPSC rifle. It's basically a competition rig. Nothing to do with those service rifles. It's IMO a more fickle machine on this form and will probably never see mud or earth in anger. I was simply speaking about it's value as a competition rifle. There's a reasen this is being sold under the Izhmash brand, not CK. Look at the magazine.
    sepheronx
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  sepheronx 06/08/15, 01:39 am

    Any new news on the assault rifle section for Russia?
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe 08/09/15, 08:54 pm

    https://www.facebook.com/LarryVickers/posts/10156001430955416

    Detailed view of the AKS-74MR

    KC has done a nice job almost everywhere. I still hate the damn stock. Kill it with fire.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Russian Assault Rifles / Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  KoTeMoRe 08/09/15, 09:00 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Any new news on the assault rifle section for Russia?

    https://www.facebook.com/LarryVickers/posts/10156001430955416

    AKS-74MR.

    GarryB
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  GarryB 09/09/15, 03:08 pm

    Page not available...
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB 09/09/15, 03:09 pm

    Page not available...
    KoTeMoRe
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Detailed view of the AKS-74MR

    Post  KoTeMoRe 09/09/15, 08:58 pm

    Sorry Garry here it is.

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/06/new-photos-of-ak-74-upgrade-package-for-russian-army-courtesy-larry-vickers/
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe 09/09/15, 08:58 pm

    My bad, here it is.

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/06/new-photos-of-ak-74-upgrade-package-for-russian-army-courtesy-larry-vickers/
    PapaDragon
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  PapaDragon 21/09/15, 08:25 am

    Question
    Guys, can anyone identify this rifle?
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Screen10


    Original video:

    magnumcromagnon
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  magnumcromagnon 22/09/15, 03:14 pm

    Russian - world champion in practical shooting
    New gun "Kalashnikov" has helped our athletes to win victory

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 4%20(1)

    Russian athletes with the new "Saiga 12" execution of 340 performed well at the world championships in practical shooting, which took place from 13 to 19 September in the Italian city of Anya. Concern "Kalashnikov" was one of the sponsors of the championship.

    For the first time absolute world champion in open class was the Russian team, which included arrows team practical shooting "Rostec - Kalashnikov" Vsevolod Ilyin, Ramadan Mubarak and Andrew Kirisenko and Roman Halitov. Second place went to the Czech national team, bronze winner was the team of Germany.

    "Gold" in the standings won the participant teams, "Kalashnikov Ladies' Alain Karelin. Silver prize winner in the individual competition for men was the Russian Roman Halitov, and the bronze medal in women won Natalia Rumyantsev from "Lady Kalashnikov." In dueling standings champion title went to participants of national teams' Lady Kalashnikov "and" Rostec - Kalashnikov "Mary Schwartz and Vsevolod Ilyin.

    "The development of shooting sports in the world is an important priority for the group as one of the world's largest producers of small arms, - the general director of concern" Kalashnikov "Alexei Krivoruchko. - How do manufacturers of a wide range of civilian small arms, we are glad that athletes confidently take prizes, speaking with rifles Izhevsk production. We wish them new triumphs in the upcoming tournaments and competitions. "

    In total, Russian athletes won 12 world championship medals, including 4 gold, 5 silver and 3 bronze. In total in the championship competitions involved 600 athletes from more than 25 countries.

    http://rostec.ru/news/4517227
    KoTeMoRe
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  KoTeMoRe 02/10/15, 10:11 am

    PapaDragon wrote: Question
    Guys, can anyone identify this rifle?
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Screen10


    Original video:


    ZID Tokar LMG (but with what looks a legacy 7.62 ammo box.)
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    Post  PapaDragon 02/10/15, 12:11 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote: Question
    Guys, can anyone identify this rifle?
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Screen10


    Original video:


    ZID Tokar LMG (but with what looks a legacy 7.62 ammo box.)

    Thanks man! I been waiting for ages to get that into.

    +1 for you dude! thumbsup

    I had no idea you can silence LMG, cool!
    Werewolf
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  Werewolf 02/10/15, 12:18 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote: Question
    Guys, can anyone identify this rifle?
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Screen10


    Original video:


    ZID Tokar LMG (but with what looks a legacy 7.62 ammo box.)

    Thanks man! I been waiting for ages to get that into.

    +1  for you dude! thumbsup

    I had no idea you can silence LMG, cool!

    You can "silence" everything.

    Shotgun Suppressor



    Alledgley to some rumors, US testes suppressors for tank guns... sound stupid, it is and probably just a rumor, but anyways you can only suppress projectiles traveling below speed of sound.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  KoTeMoRe 02/10/15, 12:36 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote: Question
    Guys, can anyone identify this rifle?
    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Screen10


    Original video:


    ZID Tokar LMG (but with what looks a legacy 7.62 ammo box.)

    Thanks man! I been waiting for ages to get that into.

    +1  for you dude! thumbsup

    I had no idea you can silence LMG, cool!

    They have completely reshuffled the gun since the last time it was leaked.
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  GarryB 03/10/15, 12:59 am

    The amusing thing is that the west will claim this is a copy of the FN Minimi... the irony being at the end of WWII the Soviets put into service a light machine gun with a removable barrel, and dual feed... it could take belts and it could take the round drums previously used on Soviet light machine guns like the DP and DPM.

    The RP46 was in 7.62 x 54mm calibre so it even has the advantage of better range and lethality over the current crop of LMGs... with the exception of the PKP also in 7.62 x 54mm.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe 03/10/15, 01:59 am

    GarryB wrote:The amusing thing is that the west will claim this is a copy of the FN Minimi... the irony being at the end of WWII the Soviets put into service a light machine gun with a removable barrel, and dual feed... it could take belts and it could take the round drums previously used on Soviet light machine guns like the DP and DPM.

    The RP46 was in 7.62 x 54mm calibre so it even has the advantage of better range and lethality over the current crop of LMGs... with the exception of the PKP also in 7.62 x 54mm.

    Well there were a lot of weapons that were deisgned and were better than the Minimi. PU-71 for instance was a good example. The Tokar is perpetuating the new trend of "westernizing" the gun appearance. Originally it looked barely different from a PKM. Also the gun draws extensive lessons from the NEGEV testing post 2008. Personally I think that's a mistake, since the Negev has big cons (Weight is 8kg with a red dot, it is a rather short barreled weapon, it's using 5.56, and I don't see the need to replace or repurpose the PKP/PKM and delete the RPK's). But obviously this gin has a longer barrel, looks about 8kg and probably has little to do with the Negev, bar the cosmetic reference.

    The Chinese tried that with the Type 88, worked out they needed PKM's more than baby PKM's. So I hope this is just a "modernization" à la Russe.
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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 33 Empty Machine guns

    Post  GarryB 03/10/15, 06:37 pm

    Well the real point is that the Soviets and Russians have already been through this... they had the full rifle calibre machine gun calibre LMG with drums or belts with a removable barrel in the RP-46, which they replaced in service with the belt fed assault rifle calibre fixed barrel RPD, and when they changed to the AKM they went to the RPK magazine fed LMG with a fixed barrel and the RPK-74 when they went to the smaller calibre weapons.
    Now they have the PKP in the full power rifle calibre machine gun round and the RPK-74... the RPK is lighter and takes the same ammo and can use standard magazines or larger capacity mags but lacks the range and power of the PKP.

    Over medium ranges the RPK is excellent and from what I have read rather accurate, while the PKP has lots of punch and range though it is not light... the weapon or the ammo.

    The advantage of the 6x49mm rounds is that a lighter weapon could be developed that has more range and hitting power with the ammo being lighter too... perhaps the new ammo box is for the 6x49mm calibre rounds.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe 04/10/15, 12:35 am

    GarryB wrote:Well the real point is that the Soviets and Russians have already been through this... they had the full rifle calibre machine gun calibre LMG with drums or belts with a removable barrel in the RP-46, which they replaced in service with the belt fed assault rifle calibre fixed barrel RPD, and when they changed to the AKM they went to the RPK magazine fed LMG with a fixed barrel and the RPK-74 when they went to the smaller calibre weapons.
    I agree fully.

    Now they have the PKP in the full power rifle calibre machine gun round and the RPK-74... the RPK is lighter and takes the same ammo and can use standard magazines or larger capacity mags but lacks the range and power of the PKP.

    Exactly why I don't get the Tokar. SUpposedly is uses 5.45...what for?

    Over medium ranges the RPK is excellent and from what I have read rather accurate, while the PKP has lots of punch and range though it is not light... the weapon or the ammo.

    Well if the US can 'PE' the M240, I don't see why the Russians couldn't do that. Even the poles have made the PKM lighter. And then as you said.

    The advantage of the 6x49mm rounds is that a lighter weapon could be developed that has more range and hitting power with the ammo being lighter too... perhaps the new ammo box is for the 6x49mm calibre rounds.

    One can always hope.
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    Post  GarryB 04/10/15, 11:51 am

    Exactly why I don't get the Tokar. SUpposedly is uses 5.45...what for?

    Well unless they have suddenly become very stupid... which I rather doubt... I would think that the weapon with a new ammo box that is larger would suggest a new calibre.

    Designing if for 5.45mm calibre and then beefing it up to 6x49mm calibre offers the potential for a lighter weapon than if they just scaled down a PKM... especially if the mechanism is a push through system like a 5.45mm weapon could use and a rimmed cartridge PKM could not.

    there is a reason there are no in service 5.56 or 5.45mm gatling guns because the ammo was designed for short range...

    I suspect they realise that a small light replacement for an RPK in a smaller calibre would only make sense in 6 x 49mm as 5.45mm lacks range and power, while 7.62 x 54mm is too heavy and powerful to create a small light portable weapon...

    In that photo with the larger magazine... does the barrel look longer than normal?

    That would be a hint to me that they might be changing to 6x49mm.

    Of course then again I would think that a LMG would be better based on the AK12, but then this weapon is a ZID weapon so it is really an AEK-xxx... or should that be RPEK-xxx...


    Well if the US can 'PE' the M240, I don't see why the Russians couldn't do that. Even the poles have made the PKM lighter. And then as you said.

    I would say the PKP is already optimised for LMG use even if it is a little on the heavy side with ammo.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe 05/10/15, 01:29 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Exactly why I don't get the Tokar. SUpposedly is uses 5.45...what for?

    Well unless they have suddenly become very stupid... which I rather doubt... I would think that the weapon with a new ammo box that is larger would suggest a new calibre.

    Designing if for 5.45mm calibre and then beefing it up to 6x49mm calibre offers the potential for a lighter weapon than if they just scaled down a PKM... especially if the mechanism is a push through system like a 5.45mm weapon could use and a rimmed cartridge PKM could not.

    there is a reason there are no in service 5.56 or 5.45mm gatling guns because the ammo was designed for short range...

    I suspect they realise that a small light replacement for an RPK in a smaller calibre would only make sense in 6 x 49mm as 5.45mm lacks range and power, while 7.62 x 54mm is too heavy and powerful to create  a small light portable weapon...

    In that photo with the larger magazine... does the barrel look longer than normal?

    That would be a hint to me that they might be changing to 6x49mm.

    Of course then again I would think that a LMG would be better based on the AK12, but then this weapon is a ZID weapon so it is really an AEK-xxx... or should that be RPEK-xxx...


    Well if the US can 'PE' the M240, I don't see why the Russians couldn't do that. Even the poles have made the PKM lighter. And then as you said.

    I would say the PKP is already optimised for LMG use even if it is a little on the heavy side with ammo.

    Barrel looks longer than the proto, the ammo box looks made for 7.62, gas regulator tells also this is a ZID weapon. This is in best case a 6x49 ammo gun or at "worst" case a 7.62 ammo gun.

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      Current date/time is 16/06/24, 02:47 pm