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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:09 am

    They said the AK-12 would be submitted for state tests in 2013, they didn't mention anything about the AK-107 though.

    AK-107 has been part of their future soldier kit for some time, and we have seen several models with rails and other upgrades.

    I believe the AK-200 was just an AK-74M with rails, not a different rifle really.

    If you look at the photos I have posted of the AK-200 you will notice it has a balanced recoil mechanism as well as a few other changes.

    They are not really looking for a different rifle, they want a rifle that fixes most of the AKs main problems, which are mostly cosmetic. They might go for an AK-74M upgrade, or the AK12s more substantial modification.

    The AK-200 and Ak-107 are rather more fundamental changes as they both have balanced recoil mechanisms like the AEK rifles.

    The ADS doesn't seem to be as serious of a competitor.

    Why not serious?

    It seems the VDV and the Naval Infantry have both adopted it.

    It is reported to be accurate up to 600m, it is compact and can be used left or right handed without adjustment and without brass burns on your cheek.

    In addition to that it can fire a range of ammo that includes ammo designed for shooting underwater.

    What is not to like?

    What I meant is there doesn't seem to be any serious competition from other plants to make a new rifle for the Russian army besides Izmash.

    Perhaps we should put off judgement in that regard till we know for sure.

    Over the decades there have been an enormous range of rifle ideas coming from Russia including bullpup rifles and even triple barrel weapons, and weapons with balanced recoil mechanisms.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:43 am

    GarryB wrote:
    They said the AK-12 would be submitted for state tests in 2013, they didn't mention anything about the AK-107 though.

    AK-107 has been part of their future soldier kit for some time, and we have seen several models with rails and other upgrades.

    I believe the AK-200 was just an AK-74M with rails, not a different rifle really.

    If you look at the photos I have posted of the AK-200 you will notice it has a balanced recoil mechanism as well as a few other changes.

    They are not really looking for a different rifle, they want a rifle that fixes most of the AKs main problems, which are mostly cosmetic. They might go for an AK-74M upgrade, or the AK12s more substantial modification.

    The AK-200 and Ak-107 are rather more fundamental changes as they both have balanced recoil mechanisms like the AEK rifles.

    The ADS doesn't seem to be as serious of a competitor.

    Why not serious?

    It seems the VDV and the Naval Infantry have both adopted it.

    It is reported to be accurate up to 600m, it is compact and can be used left or right handed without adjustment and without brass burns on your cheek.

    In addition to that it can fire a range of ammo that includes ammo designed for shooting underwater.

    What is not to like?

    What I meant is there doesn't seem to be any serious competition from other plants to make a new rifle for the Russian army besides Izmash.

    Perhaps we should put off judgement in that regard till we know for sure.

    Over the decades there have been an enormous range of rifle ideas coming from Russia including bullpup rifles and even triple barrel weapons, and weapons with balanced recoil mechanisms.
    Silly me, you're right about the AK-107. It' just the ADS doesn't seem as advertised as much as the AK-12, not that it's a bad rifle. I hope the AK-12 proves to be better than the AK-107. I don't think they should reintroduce the AN-94. A completed AK-12 or AK-107 should be able to match or exceed its abilities.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:02 am

    I actually like the idea of having the future combat system accomodating a wide range of weapons allowing it to be used widely.

    The average soldier on the ground might never use the An-94, or indeed the AK-107, and most might be issued upgraded AK-74s with a few equipped with AK12s. Elite forces carrying modular AK12s with calibre and barrel length kits.

    Integrating the AN-94 however means that if FSB or OMON troops decide that the AN-94 or an upgraded model with rails and other upgrades they can use it with their future soldier system.

    Their grenade pouches might be redesigned for flash grenades for instance.

    I rather suspect that the balanced recoil mechanism of the AK-107 might achieve the same result that the An-94s much more complex and expensive design achieves.

    With such a large military force they could certainly adopt more than one assault rifle class weapon till that ultimate weapon family are ready for introduction.

    I don't think they should reintroduce the AN-94. A completed AK-12 or AK-107 should be able to match or exceed its abilities.

    I agree. A modular multi calibre AK12, and a simpler standard AK12, plus either the AK-107 or AK-200 depending on which balanced recoil model works best pretty much covers all the potential improvements possible with the AK-74 design.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:19 am

    GarryB wrote:I actually like the idea of having the future combat system accomodating a wide range of weapons allowing it to be used widely.

    The average soldier on the ground might never use the An-94, or indeed the AK-107, and most might be issued upgraded AK-74s with a few equipped with AK12s. Elite forces carrying modular AK12s with calibre and barrel length kits.

    Integrating the AN-94 however means that if FSB or OMON troops decide that the AN-94 or an upgraded model with rails and other upgrades they can use it with their future soldier system.

    Their grenade pouches might be redesigned for flash grenades for instance.

    I rather suspect that the balanced recoil mechanism of the AK-107 might achieve the same result that the An-94s much more complex and expensive design achieves.

    With such a large military force they could certainly adopt more than one assault rifle class weapon till that ultimate weapon family are ready for introduction.

    I don't think they should reintroduce the AN-94. A completed AK-12 or AK-107 should be able to match or exceed its abilities.

    I agree. A modular multi calibre AK12, and a simpler standard AK12, plus either the AK-107 or AK-200 depending on which balanced recoil model works best pretty much covers all the potential improvements possible with the AK-74 design.
    I think the AK-12 and/or AK-107 will be probably be the conclusion of the AK series. I imagine caseless ammo will be the next step.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:50 am

    I think the AK-12 and/or AK-107 will be probably be the conclusion of the AK series. I imagine caseless ammo will be the next step.

    You could be right, but comments I have read from Russian officials about the next generation weapons using previously unknown methods of operation suggest that they might actually be working on some sort of EM hybrid type weapon.

    Caseless ammo is not actually that new even if it is not widely used today.

    Liquid propellents offer another option as well.
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    Post  Cyberspec Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:48 pm

    New rifleman's simulator...apparently over 100 have been ordered

    .
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    Post  GarryB Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:22 am

    nice vid, thanks for sharing...

    Transas are big in naval simulations and training systems, so it makes sense they would make something like this too.
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:25 am

    I like this one better



    More hands on. .
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:28 pm

    Poor wages and losing contracts is a management issue.

    How many of the workers would you like to see suffering because their management don't know what they are doing?

    More importantly Izhmash pretty much makes all the AKs and PKMs and Dragunovs in Russian military service, what are you going to replace them with and how many billions are you going to spend to get this new entity to the production potential Izhmash can already achieve even though it is clearly broken?
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    Post  SWAT Pointman Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:43 pm

    GarryB wrote:Poor wages and losing contracts is a management issue.

    How many of the workers would you like to see suffering because their management don't know what they are doing?

    More importantly Izhmash pretty much makes all the AKs and PKMs and Dragunovs in Russian military service, what are you going to replace them with and how many billions are you going to spend to get this new entity to the production potential Izhmash can already achieve even though it is clearly broken?
    Yes, you do bring up a good point. I suppose the government will bail out Izmash anyways. There are always out arms makers in Russia that are up to the task.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:58 am

    Yes, you do bring up a good point. I suppose the government will bail out Izmash anyways.

    It is not a question of a bail out. The company is sound and should be a very viable entity on its own.

    What it needs is much better management and government support in gaining foreign and domestic contracts.

    A multi calibre modular AK12 would be ideal for Special Forces in Russia and abroad.

    The existing stock of AKs could easily be used up if need be by gifting them to Iraq or Iran or Afghanistan or even North Korea, or Yemen or Somalia.

    They could simply state that 15 million AKs will be set aside as a strategic reserve in enormous bunkers for future emergencies with a similarly large ammo store and then start restocking the reserve for the active military units.

    They could start clandestinely supplying opposition groups in Israel and Saudi Arabia and the UK and US the way the west does in Chechnia and Georgia and the Ukraine and Syria and Libya.

    They can even launch spaceships with AKs as an offsite backup.

    No doubt Izhmash will be making a few GSh-301s over the next few years and with increased operational tempo should maintain increased production for a while.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:25 am

    I don't think it would look good for Russia to be supplying weapons secretely like that, that would be dumping down to the same low level of what western "democracies" do. North Korea makes their own AK's, and so does Iran. Unless Iran wants to replace their old G3 rifles. For what ever reason, Russia has chosen not to sell off their old AK-47's and AKM's. They haven't done so since the end of the USSR.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:19 am

    I don't think it would look good for Russia to be supplying weapons secretely like that,

    Who said secretly?

    The west made no secret of supplying weapons to unknown forces in Libya and now in Syria.

    that would be dumping down to the same low level of what western "democracies" do.

    First rule of winning a game is know the rules. If the other guy is using a different rule set then you need to be flexible enough to use his rule set too if you want to succeed.

    North Korea makes their own AK's, and so does Iran. Unless Iran wants to replace their old G3 rifles. For what ever reason, Russia has chosen not to sell off their old AK-47's and AKM's. They haven't done so since the end of the USSR.

    Pretty sure they would both accept gifts. Especially if they came wrapped in a parcel that included old model S-300s that are being replaced over the next few years by S-400s and Vityaz.

    An English version of the article I posted earlier today.
    (Thanks)

    A range of other weapons will be produced based on the AK-12, including a machine-pistol, assault rifle, handguns and special forces weapons.

    This is good news. I suspect that what they mean is that there will be a SMG model of the AK-12, perhaps like the Vityaz-SN SMG, plus of course a standard assault rifle, perhaps LMG and DMR, while for the special forces a modular weapon with different barrel lengths and calibre options.

    That latter weapon would be an interesting option for Indias new rifle family.

    I would certainly be interested in a commercial multi calibre rifle with different barrel options. Especially if the barrels and calibre kits could be bought separately, so I could buy a 7.62 x 39mm short barrel with a suppressor built in, and a longer barrel for unsuppressed shooting.
    Mr.Kalishnikov47
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:28 am

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:49 am

    Looks like they are just getting the best video games ever.

    Of course all of their training wont be on this system, there is also a large German built complex where up to one brigade and fight one brigade with each person using a simulated vehicle or weapon, so for instance a BMP driver can learn to drive a BMP and the gunner and commander can also learn their jobs, and then groups of BMPs can train together and then those crewmen can train as part of the brigade against another brigade or against an automated enemy.

    Individual weapons and systems training and group training with recorded results that can be used to evaluate performance... this is the ultimate LAN game.

    Of course there are also real exercises with laser sensors and blanks as shown in other videos etc that can also be used and of course live firing training too.
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    Post  TheArmenian Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:27 am

    Said to be a Ratnik compatible AK-12:

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 18 6856771
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    Post  collegeboy16 Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:45 pm

    It looks like the one from Skyfall
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:14 am

    Here is an interesting photo of tools used by Russian forces:

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 18 Iukdf10

    How about that for a nice toy collection... I am jealous...

    From left to right we have the good old 4 gauge KS-23 riot shotgun with a muzzle mounted tear gas grenade launcher, then we have an SVD and then an AKMS, then AK-74. Next is a VSK-94 sniper rifle and then an RPG-7 grenade launcher, then a 9A91 compact assault rifle and then the AS suppressed assault rifle with a GP-25 underbarrel grenade launcher next to it.
    Next is the PP-93 SMG with a Kashtan SMG next to that and to the rear is a flare pistol, while in front is a Klin/Kedr 9mm SMG, and second to last is the OTs-02 Kiparis SMG followed lastly by the good old Stechkin machine pistol.

    Quite a range of weapon types and capabilities...
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    Post  collegeboy16 Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:31 am

    Would be a shame if a tank just rolled right over it. Twisted Evil
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:36 am

    I have to wonder why anybody would need a balanced recoil mechanism on a semi automatic firearm. Maybe for the cool factor. .

    Good find, thanks.


    Last edited by Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:36 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Wording)
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    Post  SWAT Pointman Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:57 am

    Mr.Kalishnikov47 wrote:I have to wonder why anybody would need a balanced recoil mechanism on a semi automatic firearm. Maybe for the cool factor. .

    Good find, thanks.
    I've read some conflicting articles. One Russian news article suggests the AK-12 is adopting a balanced recoil mechanism. So I'm not not really sure. An AK-107 in semi auto is really quite pointless. The whole point of the mechanism is to reduce the disturbing vibrations and recoil that causes inaccuracy in fully auto.
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    Post  Zivo Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:44 am

    Mr.Kalishnikov47 wrote:I have to wonder why anybody would need a balanced recoil mechanism on a semi automatic firearm. Maybe for the cool factor. .

    Good find, thanks.

    I bet if it was offered in the US for a decent price you would buy it anyways.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:24 am

    I have to wonder why anybody would need a balanced recoil mechanism on a semi automatic firearm. Maybe for the cool factor. .

    It would be most effective at reducing felt recoil... with the old AKM the weight of the bolt carrier mainly, plus the weight of the bolt moving backwards and then stopping is a significant mass moving inside the rifle during firing and it upsets the balance of the weapon.

    Using a balanced recoil mechanism would greatly reduce that effect during single shot firing, which would allow the shooter to recover better and faster for a quick second follow up shot.

    The effect during automatic fire would obviously be much more noticeable and the effect on burst fire accuracy would be much more marked but even in single shot you would notice the difference.

    I've read some conflicting articles. One Russian news article suggests the AK-12 is adopting a balanced recoil mechanism. So I'm not not really sure. An AK-107 in semi auto is really quite pointless. The whole point of the mechanism is to reduce the disturbing vibrations and recoil that causes inaccuracy in fully auto.

    The AK-200 has a balanced recoil mechanism... adding such a system to the AK12 would make it much more effective in burst fire, but I would question the cost effectiveness of such a move.

    The vibrations and recoil of the old mechanism are felt in single shot mode, so the AK-107 would eliminate them, but I agree to get the maximum effect of a balanced recoil mechanism you would need to apply it to a full auto weapon.

    I bet if it was offered in the US for a decent price you would buy it anyways.

    I know I would...  Smile

    I would also buy an AK12 based civilian rifle too... I like the ambidextrous thumb selector and the ability to swap the side of the cocking handle...
    I wouldn't put any tacticrap on it though...
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    Post  Werewolf Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    It would be most effective at reducing felt recoil... with the old AKM the weight of the bolt carrier mainly, plus the weight of the bolt moving backwards and then stopping is a significant mass moving inside the rifle during firing and it upsets the balance of the weapon.

    Using a balanced recoil mechanism would greatly reduce that effect during single shot firing, which would allow the shooter to recover better and faster for a quick second follow up shot.

    The effect during automatic fire would obviously be much more noticeable and the effect on burst fire accuracy would be much more marked but even in single shot you would notice the difference.
    I thought the same. Even in civil life their are more than enough championships for fast shootings. A CBM would improve their ability to engage more targets in a shorter time.
    And like the most already have seen such champions are very fast even with weapons wich have a big recoil would be interesting to see how fast they will be with a CBM operated gun.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:07 pm

    It just seems a little odd to me that they are resurrecting the AK-107. The designer of the AK-12 said himself that the AK-12 matched the AK-107 in performance, so it would be quite odd to market both rifles to the civilian market. Or it could be that the AK-107 is a backup in case the AK-12 venture fails. The AK-107 is basically a 30-40 year old design that was successfully tested, but wasn't adopted due to cost.

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