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    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Tue May 12, 2015 9:37 am

    IMO every rifle equipped by anyone these days should have optics or should have the option to be fitted with optics; it considerably raises effective range and accuracy.

    Now that training and shooting practise has become more serious and frequent for everyone; the military can afford to instruct all of its personnel in their use.

    The adjustable/collapsible stocks can't do any harm either.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Tue May 12, 2015 3:32 pm

    If the upgrade is cheap, fine, if not...... The money could be used to purchase plenty of new AK-12's. If they already have 5M ak-74M's, then this upgrade isnt needed.

    All depends on cost and its functionality. If they are getting these at reduced costs and for all old AK-74's, then fine I suppose. But Russias army isnt that massive to justify upgrading old rifles. If a major war breaks, I doubt all militia would be sporting optics and grips.
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    Post  flamming_python Tue May 12, 2015 4:21 pm

    sepheronx wrote:If the upgrade is cheap, fine, if not...... The money could be used to purchase plenty of new AK-12's. If they already have 5M ak-74M's, then this upgrade isnt needed.

    All depends on cost and its functionality. If they are getting these at reduced costs and for all old AK-74's, then fine I suppose. But Russias army isnt that massive to justify upgrading old rifles. If a major war breaks, I doubt all militia would be sporting optics and grips.

    Where did you get 5 million AK-47Ms from? I kinda doubt they have more than 100,000.

    Upgrading old AK-74s is pretty neccessary, and I would imagine far cheaper than buying new AK-12s - which aren't really needed but I suppose could be acquired for infantry in Marines/VDV/Motor-Rifles; leaving upgraded AK-74s and AK-74Ms for everyone else.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Tue May 12, 2015 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  sepheronx Tue May 12, 2015 4:24 pm

    I am going by what Koetemor is saying and I bet you there are much more AK-74M's than 100,000. Way more.

    If the upgrades are cheap but effective, fine. But if they cost more than the rifle, and flimsy, I doubt its use.
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    Post  Werewolf Tue May 12, 2015 4:34 pm

    AK-74M is the standard assault rifle of the russian army, there are barely any other versions of the 74 in service.

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    Post  Regular Tue May 12, 2015 5:45 pm

    Werewolf wrote:AK-74M is the standard assault rifle of the russian army, there are barely any other versions of the 74 in service.

    There are few M "versions" too. 3:30
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Tue May 12, 2015 7:08 pm

    https://m.imgur.com/a/YtQ91 witness how 74's are being modernised. 100K yeah, right.
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    Post  Werewolf Tue May 12, 2015 7:39 pm

    Regular wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:AK-74M is the standard assault rifle of the russian army, there are barely any other versions of the 74 in service.

    There are few M "versions" too. 3:30

    That is not an AK-74M but an AK-74N2 which was specially designed to mount various scopes that are used on SVD and SVU along with Night Vision Scopes.

    The AK-74M exists in milions in russian army.

    Новый автомат получил пластиковое цевьё от АКБ и складной пластиковый приклад от него же. На автомате имелись крепления и для установки оптических и ночных прицелов, и для гранатомёта и даже для штыка. Автомат получил название АК-74М (Автомат Калашникова 1974 года Модернизированный) Сейчас им вооружены поголовно все бойцы армии РФ, а так же ОМОН, СОБР и кастомизированные версии у спецназа. В войсках его прозвали "Чёрный Калаш" во многом из-за того, что в отличии от более ранних модификаций он действительно был чёрного цвета.

    The new machine got a plastic fore-end from the battery and foldable plastic butt from him. On the machine there were mounting and for mounting optical and night sights, and grenade launcher, and even a bayonet. The machine was named AK-74M (Automatic Kalashnikov 1974 Upgraded) Now they were all armed fighters of the Russian army and OMON, SOBR and customized version of special forces. In the army he was nicknamed "Black Kalash" is largely due to the fact that unlike earlier versions it was actually black color.

    We can ask Vlad, don't know when he served but when he served after 2000 he should have been issued with AK-74M and he can tell us more about the numbers.

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 AK-74M-008
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Tue May 12, 2015 8:34 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:https://m.imgur.com/a/YtQ91 witness how 74's are being modernised. 100K yeah, right.

    Dunno why you think that's supposed to be a shocker to me. It is of absolutely no surprise whatsoever.

    To be honest I have no idea how many AK-74Ms there are in service, much less 'true' AK-74Ms. 100k seems a good as guess as any. Could be more.

    I do know however that there are a lot more AK-74s than AK-74Ms; even if by now they're mostly for reserves and some forgotten units. One way or the other - if you want to upgrade the standard issue rifle - you're gonna have to touch the AK-74. No way around it; there are millions of them.
    In all the infantry formations and other front-line ones at least I'd imagine they have AK-74Ms; given their need for rails for scopes and such, and the folding stock practically a neccessity for Marines and VDV.
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 13, 2015 12:11 am

    The AK-74M already has a scope mount... the standard mount that is the same as the RPG-7 and SVD, so its need for rails is rather less urgent than for the older rifles which lack any scope mounting capacity.

    I rather suspect the reason for this upgrade is to allow mounting simple standard optics that will be introduced over the next 3-4 years that it takes to introduce Ratnik.

    Upgrading enough AKs will be far cheaper and far quicker than trying to introduce AEK and Ak12 over the same time period.

    the commercial price of rails is irrelevant... these wont be made by any company other than Kalashnikov and it will be the normal special rate they sell their weapons to the Russian military for.

    Exports and sales to civilians will of course be rather more expensive with a much larger profit margin.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Wed May 13, 2015 2:21 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:https://m.imgur.com/a/YtQ91 witness how 74's are being modernised. 100K yeah, right.

    Dunno why you think that's supposed to be a shocker to me. It is of absolutely no surprise whatsoever.

    To be honest I have no idea how many AK-74Ms there are in service, much less 'true' AK-74Ms. 100k seems a good as guess as any. Could be more.

    I do know however that there are a lot more AK-74s than AK-74Ms; even if by now they're mostly for reserves and some forgotten units. One way or the other - if you want to upgrade the standard issue rifle - you're gonna have to touch the AK-74. No way around it; there are millions of them.
    In all the infantry formations and other front-line ones at least I'd imagine they have AK-74Ms; given their need for rails for scopes and such, and the folding stock practically a neccessity for Marines and VDV.

    Why do you think I'm shocked? I'm not. As I said Russian Mod has already done black magic on the rifles. There aren't only 100K 74M's, As I said, most of the rifles have been reworked on.

    There are very little originals remaining. Mostly because many were already converted tu 74N/N2 standart. So the modification itself (the MR) doesn't make any more sense than new rifles or a different, more modular upgrade (Zenitco).
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Wed May 13, 2015 2:48 am

    GarryB wrote:The AK-74M already has a scope mount... the standard mount that is the same as the RPG-7 and SVD, so its need for rails is rather less urgent than for the older rifles which lack any scope mounting capacity.

    I rather suspect the reason for this upgrade is to allow mounting simple standard optics that will be introduced over the next 3-4 years that it takes to introduce Ratnik.

    Upgrading enough AKs will be far cheaper and far quicker than trying to introduce AEK and Ak12 over the same time period.

    the commercial price of rails is irrelevant... these wont be made by any company other than Kalashnikov and it will be the normal special rate they sell their weapons to the Russian military for.

    Exports and sales to civilians will of course be rather more expensive with a much larger profit margin.

    CK doesn't make LCC-type products. They simply don't. The laser designator is over half the upgrade already. And Costs twice the rifle as it stands. And is made by Zenitco. This is called cutting corners.
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 13, 2015 3:31 am

    CK doesn't make LCC-type products. They simply don't. The laser designator is over half the upgrade already. And Costs twice the rifle as it stands. And is made by Zenitco. This is called cutting corners.

    Concern Kalashnikov will make the rails and collapsible stock for the AK12, so it would make sense for them to make the same for the AK-74 Upgrade... I highly doubt this upgrade will include laser designators as such... more likely simple red dot sights or low magnification scopes are likely the best they can expect.

    The purpose will likely to allow optics to be issued that can be readily fitted to weapons so they can get used to using optics which make shooting much easier... especially at extended distances.
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 13, 2015 3:43 am

    witness how 74's are being modernised. 100K yeah, right.

    Hmmm... Soldiers in the Crimea with rifles that appear to be modern AK-74Ms but have details that prove they are much much older... why not just assume they are Ukrainian stocks siezed?
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Wed May 13, 2015 5:21 am

    GarryB wrote:
    witness how 74's are being modernised. 100K yeah, right.

    Hmmm... Soldiers in the Crimea with rifles that appear to be modern AK-74Ms but have details that prove they are much much older... why not just assume they are Ukrainian stocks siezed?

    Ukrops don't have full folding stock feature. That's typical for the 74N2. They have skeletonized folding and fixed stock. There's no point using less efficient rifles for your Morska Pexota and having more modern rifles in stock. Furthermore there are a lot of other things that clearly muster those rifles were retrofitted from possibly already produced parts to ramp up production.
    I never assume anything that defies logic. Those 74's you see are the fruit of economical downturn (at best) and/or rampant corruption during the 90's (pay for new rifles, receive "new" rifles"). Izhevsk honchos get a cut, MoD folks get a cut win-win.

    Now more to the point, the rifle shown was fitted with an LCC, I assumed and still assume that the said LCC is part of the upgrade, especially whith NV-goggles becoming part of the game, there is no sense once again, slapping rails and Western-style buttstock over 30+ year rifles that will supposedly sit in stocks, while most of them can mount optics with a far cheaper upgrade, that CK doesn't need to retool for. Just bolt a mounting bracket and the rifle is A-OK for 90% of the fighting.

    As for optics, said it already, The Russians have enough cheap and very effective optics in stock. Obzor/ Rakurs already cost around the same price than C-sight and Barska. There isn't much you can do that hasn't been done.

    The upgrade to me made sense, if an LCC was going to be included. That would have totally changed the options on those rifles. Again, I think an upgrade is needed. Ergonomics can really benefit from a 20 USD enhancement that allows for finger switch from safe to fire. 50 bucks for over about 80 USD for an over under. These are all made in Russia. And the selector modification made by CK itself. This is why I don't understand why they would go for such an abysmal modification as pictured some pages before.



    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Wed May 13, 2015 6:35 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:This is why I don't understand why they would go for such an abysmal modification as pictured some pages before.

    Cheap, cheerful and can be fitted on in any workshop.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Wed May 13, 2015 4:53 pm

    Hope these weren't posted.

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 0_80378_10582a5e_origRussian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 0_80377_36d52df_orig

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 0_80376_4f85fee2_origRussian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 0_8037a_5c2a5101_orig
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    Post  George1 Wed May 13, 2015 4:59 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Hope these weren't posted.

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 0_80378_10582a5e_origRussian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 0_80377_36d52df_orig

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 0_80376_4f85fee2_origRussian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 0_8037a_5c2a5101_orig

    AK-12?
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Wed May 13, 2015 5:05 pm

    George1 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Hope these weren't posted.

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 0_80378_10582a5e_origRussian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 0_80377_36d52df_orig

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 0_80376_4f85fee2_origRussian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 0_8037a_5c2a5101_orig

    AK-12?

    Nope AK 107-2/R submitted for Ratnik. With Krechet Red-dot.

    Orsis t-5000 and SVS-R again for Ratnik.

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    Post  Regular Wed May 13, 2015 5:13 pm

    Very very old pictures. Thanks anyway
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:04 pm

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 Original

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 Maxresdefault

    Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 32 11382926_1613672125570809_501900788_n

    Looky looky. IPSC rig based on the mk107. So beautiful. It's called AK15 apparently, and a little bird tells me that the year the AK-12 needs to be ready for mass prod, will simply the AK15 being all dressed up for that.

    As I ranted before, the damn KC/CK have a fine product ready to go toe to toe with ZID and thet simply do the "Eastern European thing". They propose the shittier, harder to tune version, while the gold nugget is sold abroad...Notice on 3rd picture the selector. So good KC, so stubborn.

    Video guize...
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    Post  Werewolf Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:54 am

    fugly...the handcover is just horrible western design.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:15 pm

    Unlike Krebs, that's a proper chassis, not a "handcover/guard". You should see the gun striped to understand that the chassis has two very clever solution to the zero retaining issues, i'll get on that later. It's the closest thing Izhmash has done to utterly beat EVERY other gun out there in terms of IPSC accuracy and contollability.

    But I agree, it isn't the best looking thing out there. Talking about the "chassis", not the gun as whole.

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    Post  sepheronx Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:20 pm

    So what would you guys like to see as the main rifle for Russian armed forces? Right now, with defence budget to be slashed to 3.1% of GDP, it will probably have to be semi cheap to acquire.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:41 pm

    sepheronx wrote:So what would you guys like to see as the main rifle for Russian armed forces?  Right now, with defence budget to be slashed to 3.1% of GDP, it will probably have to be semi cheap to acquire.
    The rifle you see costs about 1K european to the civillian market a full 2K less than most rigs available at the IPSC. Mass production could end up cost about 600 euro with profit. Given the current AKM is sold about 300 euro while using mathusalem methods, this is a quite cheap offer. The CZ 805/807 has been offered at 2.2K european to the Czech MoD and about 2.9K at the Slovak MoD. Let us say that 70K rifles at 60K RUB that's 4.2 bln RUB. The price is not bad.

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