Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    avatar
    marat

    Posts : 307
    Points : 303
    Join date : 2015-04-26

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  marat on Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    As I said, you claim they will mount 152 or 203mm gun, i still believe they will receive 130mm gun. We will see.

    Regarding question if A192 is new gun it is not. Gun is the same. Mounting is different.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25925
    Points : 26471
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:51 am

    As you point out the new 130mm gun is a single barrel weapon designed to be as light as possible... at the cost of a barrel which will reduce the rate of fire... surely if it is for Cruisers why bother?

    There is no advantage overall in making it 60 tons lighter... especially at the cost of reducing its rate of fire.

    You would make it smaller and lighter to fit on smaller ships that can now carry more ready to use ammo with it because it is smaller and lighter, but for a cruiser or destroyer the difference would be unimportant... but the reduction in rate of fire would be a pain in the ass.

    For a Frigate sized ship it is huge, because the 130mm gun has better range and more effective heavier projectiles that do more damage... a full weight gun wouldn't fit and this reduced size gun probably means it can fit where a 76mm gun would have gone... perhaps with a similar number of rounds... but rounds with much better range and impact.

    The Kirovs really are pretty ships, they remind of of the Scharnhorst

    They were quite a revolution when they came out for a Soviet ship because normally their decks are covered in weapons and sensors and enormous missile tubes.... a bit like the Slava class, but the Kirovs had these vertical launch systems with just hatches on the deck... they were still covered in antennas and sensors and stuff and other weapons and things, but they looked much less cluttered and more dangerous.

    The British said their radar return is much less than they were expecting for a ship that size and the fact that it is a cruiser is revealed by the size of its wake when it is running...  it has a full sized wake with a smaller radar return...

    BTW I want them to fit a 203, I have never heard any mention of any 203 gun in development by their Army or Navy. I know the 203mm guns the Army has are out of storage and are in use in active units and I would assume new ammo is being developed but I don't know of any new guns with improved range being made or planned... just my wishful thinking.

    The 152mm guns on the other hand are on parade and are being talked about by Navy officials... I would think as I said at the very least a replacement for the Bereg 130mm land based coastal gun battery system that operates with the Bal coastal missile system... but then as I have just mentioned they have lightened and likely reduced the rate of fire of their new 130mm guns, which is largely irrelevant and counter productive respectively for a cruisers gun.

    Brilliant if you want a cruisers gun on a Frigate, but not ideal for a cruiser... a 65 ton weapon with two guns would make much more sense for a cruiser or destroyer... but of course would be less good for much lighter vessels.

    Have no idea if the gun is improved or changed on the A192 or not... probably not so they can keep their ammo stockpiles because the only ships that had the 130mm guns were the Kirovs and the Sovremmenys and it seems they are going ahead with upgraded Udaloys with 100mm guns and upgrading their Kirovs with much lighter lower rate of fire guns seems like a step backwards...

    Big_Gazza likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25925
    Points : 26471
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:11 am

    BTW the single barrel 100mm gun turret the first Kirov had (two of) weighs 49 tons without ammo... the upgraded A-190 single barrel gun has a rate of fire of over 80 rounds per minute compared with the old guns 30-50 rounds per minute and it weighs just under 19 tons.

    So they actually are new guns...
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 6787
    Points : 6934
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  kvs on Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:BTW  the single barrel 100mm gun turret the first Kirov had (two of) weighs 49 tons without ammo... the upgraded A-190 single barrel gun has a rate of fire of over 80 rounds per minute compared with the old guns 30-50 rounds per minute and it weighs just under 19 tons.

    So they actually are new guns...

    The large cannons have gone the way of the Dodo since they have been replaced by missiles. It makes more sense to have high fire rate
    "small" caliber guns than the large obsolete ones for close proximity combat. A guided missile with a high explosive warhead is more effective
    than the WWII era "car sized shell" lobbers which do not have the accuracy and the range.

    I know the Kirov class did not have the monster guns of the WWII period but it was designed in a transition period. Replacing the
    oversized guns with missile launchers updates them to modern needs and standards.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25925
    Points : 26471
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:50 am

    The large cannons have gone the way of the Dodo since they have been replaced by missiles.

    The ridiculous ones like the 16 inch guns etc then yes I would agree... but that is because the thickness of armour on modern ships is nothing like the armour of ships from WWII so the extra weight is not necessary... and of course missiles are more efficient at sinking ships than shells are.

    Having said that, the Russians have not abandoned guns... whether that is land based artillery or coastal defence they have rockets and missiles and guns... Smerch, Iskander, Coalition and 2S7.... for coastal they have Bereg and Bal (Kh-35), and for air defence they have 23mm guns and 30mm guns and are looking at reintroducing 57mm guns together with an enormous range of missiles.

    If their guns were 130mm and had their range of about 26km then I would agree... there is not much point in having lots of guns... but with airburst shells able to be used against incoming threats... they become much more interesting.

    More importantly a 152mm calibre gun firing guided rounds to 70km is already an option with the promise of 170km in the near future, together with work on EM catapults which might lead to new solutions for throwing projectiles to greater distances... why on earth would you ignore that sort of potential?

    The Russians have a rich history of applying lots of different solutions to problems... ERA on its own is OK, but add an APS, and composite armour and of course EW systems like Shtora, and of course Nakidka IR and radar camo... and you start to get a very well defended tank that is much lighter than western tanks that have not bothered with ERA or APS till they were forced to do something...

    ERA has evolved into NERA which is even better and their APS now effects APFSDS rounds as well as HEAT... who knows how far they have progressed in other areas... but they all work together to make their tanks safer.

    A guided missile with a high explosive warhead is more effective
    than the WWII era "car sized shell" lobbers which do not have the accuracy and the range.

    I am talking about 152mm guns... not 406mm.

    I know the Kirov class did not have the monster guns of the WWII period but it was designed in a transition period. Replacing the
    oversized guns with missile launchers updates them to modern needs and standards.

    It was the first ship to use vertical launched missiles, yet they still put guns on it.

    Guns are a very cheap and simple way to deliver HE to places very rapidly that jammers and chaff and flares and smoke wont stop.

    Day night and all weather capable...

    For individual point targets guns make sense... if you want a deluge then unguided rockets make more sense... but missiles are not as flexible.

    It is not like I am suggesting replacing all the missile systems with 6 or 8 Coalition gun turrets... I would think one gun turret with extra rounds makes more sense than two turrets with fewer ready to fire rounds just makes sense... it does not compromise the design nor does it take up a lot of room, while adding something that can be used together with missiles to defeat a range of targets.

    In the case of a swarm attack a 152mm shell lobbed in the middle with an air burst fuse and a light ball bearing filler to spread the damage... most flying things wont fly with a bit of damage and small flying things are fragile...

    For very low flying missiles landing shells in the water than then explode sending water up into the air in the path of the incoming missiles can be as effective as hitting them directly... Il-2 pilots mentioned flying very low over water was dangerous when enemy shells were creating water plumes... flying into water at 200km/h plus will take out most aircraft... and flying faster just means it does more damage....

    Right now the gun technology at 70km range GLONASS guided shells is useful... the expectations for 170km rounds is even more useful, so I would say go for it... half the funding is being paid for by the Army so adding Navy funding just means getting a much better product for less outlay... and if they can manage 170km range rounds in 152mm I would seriously look in to the potential of 203mm guns as well.
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 2149
    Points : 2139
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom on Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:27 am

    Per https://www.russiadefence.net/t4674p100-poseidon-carrier-submarines#291817 Khabarovsk isn't coming out of the shed until next year -> this was not launched to get out of the way for Khab.
    avatar
    owais.usmani

    Posts : 374
    Points : 374
    Join date : 2019-03-27
    Age : 34

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  owais.usmani on Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:13 pm

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/9268421

    KUBINKA / Moscow region /, August 23. / TASS /. The completion of the project 11442M (Orlan) heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov afloat is proceeding according to schedule, and the installation of weapons has begun on the ship. Sevmash general director Mikhail Budnichenko announced this to TASS on Sunday.

    "In August, the cruiser was taken out of the loading basin (launched). At present, it is located at the quay wall of the plant, outfitting work is underway on it, they are proceeding according to schedule. In particular, the installation of equipment, weapons, cable routes is being carried out." he said on the sidelines of the Army-2020 International Military-Technical Forum.

    "According to the contract, the ship should be handed over to the fleet in 2022," Budnichenko said.
    Begome
    Begome

    Posts : 31
    Points : 33
    Join date : 2020-09-12

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Begome on Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:38 pm

    korabel.ru/news/comments/resheniya_po_remontu_kreysera_admiral_lazarev_net_iz-za_otsutstviya_deneg.html

    Haven't seen this mentioned here: according to the small report given under the URL from April 2020 "experts" have looked at the Lazarev and determined that it's hull is in "very good" shape and it would not be wise to disassemble it; it also says that a final decision on whether to recycle it or modernize and reactivate it has not yet been made. Given how the reactor will have to be either serviced (which costs a lot of money and thus only makes sense if they're going for modernization) or dismantled within the next couple of years, I guess we'll find out soonish which it'll be since they can't keep delaying that decision for much longer. The issue they say is that they don't know if they have the funds for a modernization of the Lazarev, which would have to be a deep modernization, so it's a purely financial issue.

    IMO, it would be nice if they could modernize the Lazarev after the Nakhimov and then only do a much cheaper, much lighter modernization of the Pyotr Velikiy; saving money on a less thorough modernization of the P.V. combined with the savings they get by not scrapping the Lazarev (which isn't cheap, either, given the huge ship and nuclear reactor) may end up not costing them more than the cost of a Gorshkov frigate compared to the alternative of deep modernization of P.V. and scrapping of Lazarev.

    The reasoning is that the much more modern status of the P.V., compared to the Lazarev, would be completely lost as a resource if the alternative plan is enacted, while "my plan" would preserve it; basically I would like to see the Granit replaced with 80 UKSK and other than that only some more modern EW equipment and perhaps one or two of the radars exchanged for more modern ones (kinda like the modernization of the Udaloys, which employed a similar scheme). This can make sense, IMO, since the P.V. has way better air defences than any other Orlan (he's the only Orlan to have naval Tor and S-300FM as well as having Kortik with missiles instead of the AK-630 of the Lazarev). One can perhaps think about Paket-NK but the RBU-12000 system is already not that bad with some okay anti-torpedo abilities, as well, and the 80 UKSK would mean lots of Otvet missiles for some increased ASW abilities. The improved EW and radar would also boost the air defences indirectly a bit.

    So basically gain a much more offensive Orlan with 80 UKSK and not totally outdated air defences for the cost of an Admiral Gorshkov frigate...makes sense to me Smile

    LMFS likes this post

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9372
    Points : 9454
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:14 pm


    If memory serves me problem with Lazarev was cracked reactor not hull

    Begome
    Begome

    Posts : 31
    Points : 33
    Join date : 2020-09-12

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Begome on Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:34 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    If memory serves me problem with Lazarev was cracked reactor not hull

    Well the "specialists" say, according to the "source in the military" that a modernization makes sense and a recycling doesn't, unless there aren't any funds for the former...wasn't the Ushakov (i.e. the first Orlan) the one with the "cracked reactor"?
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25925
    Points : 26471
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:04 am

    It doesn't really matter if the upgrade costs equal one or five Frigates... it is not like or or even five Frigates will be able to do what two or three cruisers can do.

    More importantly even if you diverted the money for the upgrades to buy those five frigates, you wont get them in the same time frame as upgraded cruisers.

    The five new frigates would most likely be tacked on the end of existing orders so in 15 years time when they have made the 20-30 they planned to make they could then make the extra five from the saved money... except that money would be gone by then and anyway they probably spent half the money scrapping the Orlans... and by the way in 15 years time those Frigates are twice the price, so you can afford to buy 1 and three quarters of a new Frigate which will be operational in about 2038... how can that be better than three upgraded cruisers over the next 10 years that can operate with the upgraded Kuznetsov...

    They don't need to make them super arsenal ships, but it would be an excellent opportunity to test new stuff like take out that faulty reactor and put a brand new type they want to use in their new cruisers and new carriers... it will be expensive, but the experience of using a new reactor would be valuable and might allow for serious design changes and improvements so the new cruisers are less Zumwalt and more useful.

    Large radar arrays can be tested and new versions of Pantsir and TOR could be used as well.

    From what I can tell from the Roscosmos site the old Rif system can be used for the new long range S-400 missiles, but they have already mentioned the Redut will have 400km range missiles too, so the mechanised Rif launcher could be replaced by a much smaller and more compact cell based Redut system.

    And a 152mm gun would be good too... Smile
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6183
    Points : 6175
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:02 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    If memory serves me problem with Lazarev was cracked reactor not hull


    That can push them to devlop a new reactor for ships and that could then make them speed up Lider project.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 2082
    Points : 2084
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:56 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    If memory serves me problem with Lazarev was cracked reactor not hull


    I think you'll find that it is Adm Ushakov (Kirov) that has the reactor damage, and the nature of the damage has AFAIK never been made public.

    Begome likes this post

    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 814
    Points : 860
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Uranus

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:13 pm

    Well unless they plan on laying down Lider class destroyers before the end of 2025 it makes sense to modernise as many missile cruisers as possible, simply because the new frigates do not have the range or endurance to go on long trips to Africa or South America.

    And as Garry said it would be a good way of testing modules intended for the Lider.
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 1941
    Points : 1941
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  LMFS on Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:39 pm

    It would make sense, if it is not a total nightmare in terms of hidden damages and unknown scope of jobs, to modernize the Lazarev, if they get the Nakhimov and PV it is just two nuclear cruisers and that number is very short to guarantee availability in both oceanic fleets at the same time. A third unit would allow repairs on one of them without any of the fleets loosing capability. Nevertheless I doubt any decision is made until the Nakhimov returns to service and its new capabilities are evaluated.
    avatar
    william.boutros

    Posts : 121
    Points : 123
    Join date : 2015-08-13

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  william.boutros on Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:13 pm

    LMFS wrote:It would make sense, if it is not a total nightmare in terms of hidden damages and unknown scope of jobs, to modernize the Lazarev, if they get the Nakhimov and PV it is just two nuclear cruisers and that number is very short to guarantee availability in both oceanic fleets at the same time. A third unit would allow repairs on one of them without any of the fleets loosing capability. Nevertheless I doubt any decision is made until the Nakhimov returns to service and its new capabilities are evaluated.

    Well they do need ships and they need them quickly to maintain an ocean going fleet, a minimal force projection capability, and nuclear submarine protection. They have to fill that gap one way or another in the coming decade.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9372
    Points : 9454
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:38 pm

    william.boutros wrote:...Well they do need ships and they need them quickly to maintain an ocean going fleet, a minimal force projection capability, and nuclear submarine protection. They have to fill that gap one way or another in the coming decade.

    And best way to do it is to start building Gorshkovs in additional shipyard

    Big_Gazza likes this post

    avatar
    william.boutros

    Posts : 121
    Points : 123
    Join date : 2015-08-13

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  william.boutros on Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:43 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    william.boutros wrote:...Well they do need ships and they need them quickly to maintain an ocean going fleet, a minimal force projection capability, and nuclear submarine protection. They have to fill that gap one way or another in the coming decade.

    And best way to do it is to start building Gorshkovs in additional shipyard


    True but they also need destroyers.
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 1941
    Points : 1941
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  LMFS on Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:14 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:And best way to do it is to start building Gorshkovs in additional shipyard

    This is a nuclear ship that would go to Sevmash and have zero interference with Gorshkovs being built in other, conventional shipyards.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9372
    Points : 9454
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:34 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:And best way to do it is to start building Gorshkovs in additional shipyard

    This is a nuclear ship that would go to Sevmash and have zero interference with Gorshkovs being built in other, conventional shipyards.

    Only way it would make sense to overhaul Lazarov is that if they somehow actually discovered something new (and very positive) about ship's condition in which case​ they would have to:

    1) Check to make sure that reactor is 100% in excellent condition

    2) Send several hundred engineering gophers to go over the whole thing and catalog every single detail down to paint that might be chipped in the odd shape

    3) Wait to see if trials of Nakhimov show that it not only works well but that it works beyond everyone's wildest dreams

    4) Then and only then should they sit down and come up upgrade plan that takes into account every last thing that might go sideways and have solution ready in advance

    And finally if they do commit to upgrading Lazarov it should be done in parallel with Peter the Great side by side otherwise by the time both are done Nakhimov will be ready for retirement and they'd be back to square one


    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 1941
    Points : 1941
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  LMFS on Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:31 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Only way it would make sense to overhaul Lazarov is that if they somehow actually discovered something new (and very positive) about ship's condition in which case​ they would have to:

    1) Check to make sure that reactor is 100% in excellent condition

    2) Send several hundred engineering gophers to go over the whole thing and catalog every single detail down to paint that might be chipped in the odd shape

    3) Wait to see if trials of Nakhimov show that it not only works well but that it works beyond everyone's wildest dreams

    4) Then and only then should they sit down and come up upgrade plan that takes into account every last thing that might go sideways and have solution ready in advance

    And finally if they do commit to upgrading Lazarov it should be done in parallel with Peter the Great side by side otherwise by the time both are done Nakhimov will be ready for retirement and they'd be back to square one


    With old ships it is impossible to know to 100% in what condition the hidden parts are... you need to disassemble to be sure, either they accept that risk or they can scrap the ship already. The advantage is that they have already created a lot of experience with the Nakhimov, so there is reasonable hope that it can be put to good use by modernizing the PV and the Lazarev faster and with less problems, it would be a pity not to use all that knowledge further. As to the reactor, just a silly question: is it not possible to simply change it?

    Of course they should wait for the Nakhimov to be ready and tested and the risk the whole story taking ages to be completed is real...
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2030
    Points : 2022
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:25 am

    Yet when they went inside Lazarov's hull they found major problems....

    The plan was at first to bring all four back into service but upon inspection, they found the first two ships were beyond acceptable conditions...

    So some nameless source says the ship is in good condition? got any proof to back that up?.

    The article is relying on proof from a worker of the shipyard, and an unnamed official. That's just here say.

    What do have is official statements from the Russians that the first two ships will not be modernized.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25925
    Points : 26471
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:32 am

    And best way to do it is to start building Gorshkovs in additional shipyard

    They will need to do that sooner or later even just to get experience making new ships.... if they only have one shipyard making new ships then it will take quite a while before they get to new cruisers...

    True but they also need destroyers.

    Once they have upgraded the Udaloys and Slavas and Kirovs that they want to upgrade they should have enough larger ships for a period... more frigates and corvettes will get them right for coastal defence and patrol, and then the shipyards can switch to destroyers and cruisers... which will likely be nuclear powered and need different propulsion and would probably benefit most from all electric propulsion...

    And finally if they do commit to upgrading Lazarov it should be done in parallel with Peter the Great side by side otherwise by the time both are done Nakhimov will be ready for retirement and they'd be back to square one

    Actually I would think the best thing to do would be to use it as an all electric drive ship and remove its entire and relatively complex propulsion system and replace it with a new high power nuclear power generation system... with their new destroyers and cruisers they will likely need to be working with all electric drives and nuclear propulsion anyway, so a nice big ship... they will have five other big ships if they need them, and they can learn with a full sized test dummy.

    If it all goes tits up and is bloody useless... it would be hardly a critical loss to the navy to have two Kirovs instead of three... and it is an excellent chance to make a serious step forward in naval technology... and if it works well then can be used to further upgrade the other two Kirovs...

    With old ships it is impossible to know to 100% in what condition the hidden parts are...

    You can learn a lot from solving problems... but building brand new from scratch can still have problems you wont find until they are clearly a problem... like your engine cooling system doesn't work in the med because the water temperature is too high to cool the engine... just for instance.

    Perhaps one of the two that they were not going to modernise can be used as the basis for testing new propulsion systems, or all electric drives...
    Begome
    Begome

    Posts : 31
    Points : 33
    Join date : 2020-09-12

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Begome on Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:23 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Yet when they went inside Lazarov's hull they found major problems....

    The plan was at first to bring all four back into service but upon inspection, they found the first two ships were beyond acceptable conditions...

    So some nameless source says the ship is in good condition? got any proof to back that up?.

    The article is relying on proof from a worker of the shipyard, and an unnamed official. That's just here say.

    What do have is official statements from the Russians that the first two ships will not be modernized.
    I posted the proof, which includes statements that the Lazarev's hull is in very good condition, and the government can change its mind; in 2018 they also proclaimed they will recycle the two Typhoon in reserve, but in 2019 they said that these plans have been cancelled and that they now plan to repair and modernize them to become Kalibr-carrying SSGNs (glas.ru/politics/5853-v-ssha-opasajutsja-gigantskoj-rossijskoj-akuly.html).
    Whether one or the other will actually happen is not absolutely certain, but obviously not everything that is announced once will happen with certainty, including announcements of plans to scrap something.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9372
    Points : 9454
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:55 pm

    Begome wrote:...in 2018 they also proclaimed they will recycle the two Typhoon in reserve, but in 2019 they said that these plans have been cancelled and that they now plan to repair and modernize them to become Kalibr-carrying SSGNs (glas.ru/politics/5853-v-ssha-opasajutsja-gigantskoj-rossijskoj-akuly.html).

    What?

    That Typhoon thing was nothing more than one-off tabloid rumor, those two boats are getting the scraper the moment reactors air out enough

    You need to check your sources more carefully



    Sponsored content

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 28 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:56 am