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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:51 pm

    People... getting your panties in a bunch and swearing at some faceless name on the interweb might make you feel like heros, but honestly when you burst into tears about minor delays it makes you look a little silly.

    A delay... must be incompetence or corruption... maybe they have forgotten how to build ships?

    Or it might be their customer has requested a change that is going to require extra time.

    Or perhaps a thousand other different things happened.

    Get over it.

    They already have PtG and several Slava class ships, they have more cruisers than the UK and France combined... not that they are being over used at the moment, but when the Kuznetsov is back in the water it will be likely they will want to take her out for tests and checks to make sure upgrades and improvements worked... and the same for the Nakhimov too.

    not just this forum, many articles out there. just tieing up the slip for so long makes this non viable

    You mean like the many articles on Putin using Novachok to kill his enemies at home and abroad... and failing spectacularly?

    They should be able to build a clean sheet leider class in less then half that time.

    Well if they can't upgrade a cruiser in 23 years then it will be 1,000 years before a from scratch cruiser could be built... Rolling Eyes

    They just laid down two 40K ton helicopter carriers, but ships half that weight would be impossible...

    If there's one thing Russian Navy has in abundance it's empty space because they they sure a shit don't have too many ships

    Ships do not fall from the sky. Their new ships all seem to be very very good, though it takes time to get them to the point where they can start to produce them in useful numbers.

    They seem to have tested their Frigates and Corvettes to the point where they should be able to ramp up production... once engines and things are fully sorted out.

    Then they can focus on new destroyers and new cruisers, but making new destroyers and new cruisers makes no sense if you don't have corvettes and frigates defending your coasts operating and in place.... upgraded older ships reduce the urgency of new destroyers and cruisers so they can take the time to do a better job.

    For all we know the delay might be a more power laser defence system for shooting down drones and missiles within 10km of the ship.

    I expect them to start construction on a new nuclear battlecruiser around 2025 after the 4th nuclear icebreaker is launched.

    I suspect the upgraded cruisers (two Kirovs and perhaps a couple of Slavas) delay the urgent need for brand new cruisers, but new destroyers would be more useful and higher up the list. A new destroyer could simply be a scaled up Frigate optimised to carry more weapons and bigger sensors, while a new cruiser is a further scaled up destroyer with a better layout to carry even more weapons and even larger sensors.

    they hardly have modern frigates....they aren't going to start on a cruiser anytime soon.

    The have the most modern and capable frigates available to any navy on the planet, their lack in number should be rectified because their modular design and significant production run in terms of numbers should enable them to be produced at a fair pace. Not China fast, but certainly faster than the UK or France...

    The ship was docked awaiting repairs in 1999. That means the project started then, even if the work on the ship did not start, the engineering and planning started. You think they just show up and start cutting? You are beyond dumb if you think this project only started when the work started. Its been fucking YEARS. Yeah keeping a ship on slip or drydock has opportunity cost. You have no brains to figure out a shipyard costs a lot of money to keep open? Probably have clowns like you running this project thats why its such a cluster. Maybe they have no other use for the slip, in which case then can close it down and save money. A lot of hard core commies here that seem to have no idea how business works. WOW!!! Idiot after idiot. Guess what, delays in this project have impacted the PTG project ,you think that has no cost? What else could this fine facility have been used for? We will never know, that is what you call opportunity cost.

    My friend and his wife were talking about having children for about 8 years before they started actually trying and it took an extra 4 years for anything to happen... they eventually had to get the assistance of a fertility clinic.

    Does that mean it takes 12 years to make a baby? Are they fucking idiots too? How about the incompetent doctors and nurses helping them.... morons... the sky is falling... we are all doomed if it takes 12 years to have a baby... my god...

    Will you people take a chill pill.

    I mean I understand that Russia and all the invasions and naval blockades that they have been imposing around the world for the last 20 years of Putins iron rule means having this ship available to murder people and rain death on Russias enemies has been inconvenient and all the people who worked at that shipyard should be put to death... as well as any pets they might have owned.

    Most of the new sensors they will be putting on the upgraded Kirovs and eventually the upgraded Slavas will be brand new or test systems eventually going to go on future cruisers they probably wont lay down for another 6-8 years at best. With two upgraded Kirov class ships and perhaps three upgraded Slava class cruisers they don't need brand new cruisers for 10-15 years anyway.

    Destroyers will be more useful but even then they could be laying them down in 3-4 years time and everything would still be fine.

    Right now it makes more sense to start making corvettes and frigates and fill out some gaps in most of the fleets and allow some older crap that needs to be retired get retired.

    Brand new corvettes and frigates is a nice quick relatively cheap way of upgrading all their fleets rather rapidly... destroyers and cruisers are going to cost more and will take longer but essentially are just larger ships with more weapons and bigger sensors with bigger propulsion systems.

    Is that all you can do, troll?

    Two tangoing.

    If there is no improvement in behaviour then breaks from teh forum might be a solution... they are clearly breaking rules and they both know it.

    And they will complain that I am picking on them and it is because they don't love Putin that they are getting banned so it is really all just censorship... despite the rules about abusing other members and use of bad languages having nothing to do with Putin... suppose I should be relieved they are not blaming Russian hackers...

    limb, you really need to learn how to read.

    "They hardly "HAVE"

    Have in this case means the possession, not designs. Christ, why do I need to explain grade school-level English?

    How Gorshes do they have in the water and commissioned, just 1. So yes, they hardly have any modern frigates.

    Before you call something retarded learn to read alright buddy


    Actually the english language is very open to interpretation... you are not likely to accurately describe a situation where you say the bad guy in front of you is hardly armed because he only has one pistol pointed at your chest... especially if that pistol is one he made himself and is second to none despite being a third world illiterate idiot who sells fuel to make a living and doesn't make anything.

    They don't have a lot in service, that is very true... a bit like the opposite of the F-35 where they have 500 odd produced... what did the English say... 90 K pounds per hour to operate and still not all the bugs worked out... but they made 500 of them...

    The fact that you double-down on this nonsense is proof that you simply have no idea.

    No, it proves he wants an argument and is more interested in appearing to be right than finding out the actual truth of the matter.

    Hole and Backman like this post

    Backman
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    Post  Backman Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:10 pm

    They already have PtG and several Slava class ships, they have more cruisers than the UK and France combined.

    Really ? There is a lot of ppl ragging on the Russian Navy because its not the US or China but that puts it into perspective. Britain and France with their carriers, consider themselves navy powers. Its not like we are talking Italy or Spain.
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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:59 pm

    You really think the govt is going to appropriate funds without a relatively concrete plan for the repairs and upgrade? Where do you think the plan comes from? The tooth fairy? During those years there was likely a great deal of back and forth between the navy and shipyard team, as well as the govt. Gradually (at an excruciatingly slow pace) they develped a concept that they agreed upon. It is possible the delays were fuelled by the development of Tsirkon and battle management systems designed for the Gorshkov that will probably be the basis of the Nakhimov systems, but we will likely never know for sure. In any case the project started when they decided to repair it, it then evolved into a larger project. When you cannot get money for a high profile project like this, it means the the buyer is not satified with the offering. The Russian govt has a LOT of money. Over 600B in hard currency reserves and gold and a magic printing press to print roubles. Saying the Russian govt has no money is a statement for people that don't understand money. The Russian govt ALWAYS has money.

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    mnztr wrote:The ship was docked awaiting repairs in 1999.

    Correct.

    That means the project started then, even if the work on the ship did not start, the engineering and planning started.

    No, it doesn't.  The scope of work in 1999 wasn't a modernisation but was for repair. Funds didn't exist so the repairs were deferred repeatedly.  No repairs, no leaving dock. Several upgrades were started and then abandoned as funds remained inadequate, and it wasn't until 2014 that the gov committed funds to the rebuild. 7 years is too long in my book, but given the huge scope of work (look at some photos if you doubt it) delays were always inevitable.

    The fact that you double-down on this nonsense is proof that you simply have no idea.
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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    My friend and his wife were talking about having children for about 8 years before they started actually trying and it took an extra 4 years for anything to happen... they eventually had to get the assistance of a fertility clinic.

    Does that mean it takes 12 years to make a baby? Are they fucking idiots too? How about the incompetent doctors and nurses helping them.... morons... the sky is falling... we are all doomed if it takes 12 years to have a baby... my god...


    It does not mean they are idiots, but it certainly means there are some issues with the baby making process doesn't it? And now the wife is 8 years older and a second baby is a much more difficult decision. In fact I would say this is a perfect parallel to the Nakhimov saga. I will say I am never the instigator of these nasty chains, but if people are gonna get nasty I will dish it out as well. If you are going to give people breaks I suggest you target the instigators which will never be me.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:24 am

    You really think the govt is going to appropriate funds without a relatively concrete plan for the repairs and upgrade? Where do you think the plan comes from? The tooth fairy? During those years there was likely a great deal of back and forth between the navy and shipyard team, as well as the govt. Gradually (at an excruciatingly slow pace) they develped a concept that they agreed upon. It is possible the delays were fuelled by the development of Tsirkon and battle management systems designed for the Gorshkov that will probably be the basis of the Nakhimov systems, but we will likely never know for sure. In any case the project started when they decided to repair it, it then evolved into a larger project. When you cannot get money for a high profile project like this, it means the the buyer is not satified with the offering. The Russian govt has a LOT of money. Over 600B in hard currency reserves and gold and a magic printing press to print roubles. Saying the Russian govt has no money is a statement for people that don't understand money. The Russian govt ALWAYS has money.

    When we stop lobbing insults, we can find things to discuss.

    I think the main thing I object to is that you are suggesting that because nothing was done to upgrade this ship over the last 20 odd years means the Russian government and Russian ship yards and MIC are incapable of upgrades to ships... you admit yourself that they didn't know where they were going... the position of Russia in 2000 is really rather different than it is now.... remember there were plans for Russia to join the EU and HATO and there was going to be a common market from the Pacific to the Atlantic... such a solid community would not require Russia to have unfettered access to the worlds countries via sea lines of communication and commerce... if that had come to pass they might be looking at a fleet of only corvettes and frigates and perhaps the odd destroyer for international visits.

    The world has changed and when they realised the west was a hindrance to Russian growth and further development, instead of a source of those things then they realised they will have to go out to the world and trade... the world is not coming to them and the west is not going to help.

    Russia has a lot of money but has a lot of problems to deal with, and issues to contend with before building a powerful navy.

    A powerful navy does not mean bigger than all the navies of the west combined, it is about every element being modern and capable and able to work with all other components to make a powerful force... it is not going to become huge, but it will support international trade which is going to help Russia and the countries Russia ends up trading with.

    It does not mean they are idiots, but it certainly means there are some issues with the baby making process doesn't it?

    It does, but ask anyone over 40 wanting to have kids and they will say you should have done it earlier... well building aircraft carriers and cruisers was something Russia did in the 1980s as part of the Soviet Union... but there was a painful divorce and split up and lots of capabilities and facilities were lost... losing the Ukraine is the equivalent of losing the vagina in a relationship... would you not agree that that would effect some ones ability to have a child?

    The period of time from 2000 to even today has been spent substituting lost assets and lost capabilities... in many ways in 5-8 years when they are likely slowing down building corvettes and frigates because they have enough and are putting destroyers into production and perhaps laying down a new cruiser design, as well as third and fourth 40K helicopter carriers, they will be doing it with new shipyards with new technology and equipment and will be doing a much better job than they were doing in the 1980s... essentially they are getting a young wife... but that does not happen by magic.... they have made their millions and invested in new shipyards and slipways and infrastructure and new technology that is also going into these new ships too.

    Economic collapse, suppliers that stab you in the back, and economic and political sanctions from the west that require you to redevelop some parts of ship building for yourself... it is not a situation where you want to fast track getting a baby born... you simply are not ready.

    Our problem is that you translate their situation as incompetence... an inability to do the job... a job that has only now been allocated to them and properly funded...

    Looking at the Zumwalt and LCS and Ford class can I say the US has forgotten how to make ships too?

    Certainly looking at their beta testing programme development cycle for the F-35 they can't make planes any more either...

    And now the wife is 8 years older and a second baby is a much more difficult decision.

    Once you have one kid, you will know whether you want more or less... that decision becomes plainly obvious... what is difficult is whether it can be achieved naturally or if adoption might be your only choice.

    I will say I am never the instigator of these nasty chains, but if people are gonna get nasty I will dish it out as well.

    Well I can say I fully understand, but please don't... from a moderators perspective if you engage in such bullshit and then someone complains and I have to sort it out.... I don't care who started it... everyone who took part is responsible. Being provoked is no excuse, if you don't feel comfortable reporting abuse that is fine, but responding is just return abuse... you might say they abused you first, but where does that argument end... the other person is almost certain to say their abuse starting the incident was frustration because you don't listen and keep repeating things that have been repeatedly refuted etc etc which again is no excuse, but could be described as a provocation...  so we have to people who claim to be provoked into breaking the rules... and it is easier to just say... you agreed to follow the rules, you both broke the rules... you both get breaks from the forum... and then I am the bad guy.

    Or if I do nothing then another member correctly points out all this argument and swearing and abuse is really a bad advertisement for this forum as a place to discuss and learn...

    I try to be fair, and I certainly try to communicate to users what I am doing and why when it comes to moderation... I think that is only fair... it is not my forum, it is yours.

    But without rules being enforced it is nothing.

    If you are going to give people breaks I suggest you target the instigators which will never be me.

    Thank you for your advice... I do appreciate feed back and suggestions.

    But the rules are about people who abuse other members, it does not really mention who started it or why.

    I hate banning members, I don't think it helps. I think you are here to talk about something that clearly interests you, but part of that needs to be a basic acceptance that not everyone is as logical or as right as you. It is just the way the world is.

    Ignoring differing views is accepting ignorance... but then not changing your views when presented with evidence that shows the foundation for your views to be wrong is just as ignorant. I have long discussions with people where you show them to be wrong or misinformed in multiple areas of their beliefs, but when shown to be clearly wrong or misinformed they make the same argument or hold the same view with a different piece of evidence that may or may not be true.

    It is like talking religion with some people...  they are not on receive, they are transmit only... they want you to change your view and their own beliefs and views are set in stone and cannot be questioned.

    That is OK, but makes discussion on those topics rather pointless because they become circular.

    Back on topic please everyone.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:27 pm

    mnztr wrote:...If you are going to give people breaks I suggest you target the instigators which will never be me.

    Never? Are you sure?

    Be careful what you wish for:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t575p800-upgraded-kirov-class-project-11442-admiral-nakhimov#319919

    mnztr wrote:I guess you know what an idiot sounds like since you sound like one all the time.

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:11 am

    You really are not aware you insulted me first? Really?


    PapaDragon wrote:
    mnztr wrote:Search the whole thread, it has been discusses endlessly. There was one I recall from the barants sea observer. IF they make 2023, that will be 23 years. Its just not possible to justify this kind of undertaking. ...

    You mean Independent Barents Observer? That's barely a website

    Also, tying up a slip? Was there something else that they need that slip for?

    Some other vessel among "numerous" that Russia is building?

    They could tie up three times as much space and still have plenty to spare

    If there's one thing Russian Navy has in abundance it's empty space because they they sure a shit don't have too many ships


    mnztr wrote:...They should be able to build a clean sheet leider class in less then half that time.

    No Leader will be built ever

    And even if they try it will take twice as long as overhauling this one

    Have you seen how long corvettes take to build there?

    You sound like that idiot who said that they should rip out used engine from Neustrashimyy class just to finish one Grigorevich, bad joke at best






    But yes I take Garrys point to heart and will report this behavior in the future rather then getting in touch with my inner 12 year old.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:40 am

    Another point is that if abuse is reported the bans can be shorter... if you fill two pages of abuse, you are going to get a longer ban than a one off caustic remark.

    If you don't feel comfortable reporting... some people will not grass no matter what... it is a cultural thing, then you can confront the member about their rule breaking and ask them to reconsider their actions... we are adults.

    I have spoken to some members in the past based on complaints via PM, and the member in question apologised without being told to do so.

    There had been a misunderstanding that got out of hand and after looking at it I was able to explain that misunderstanding and the situation was resolved to my satisfaction.

    You don't have to agree on everything... or anything, but you do need to be civil.

    Life is too short to be angry.

    Now back on topic....

    You have all read the rules so I shouldn't have to remind you of rule 10, is follow instructions given by a mod.

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