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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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    william.boutros

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    Post  william.boutros on Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:43 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    william.boutros wrote:...Well they do need ships and they need them quickly to maintain an ocean going fleet, a minimal force projection capability, and nuclear submarine protection. They have to fill that gap one way or another in the coming decade.

    And best way to do it is to start building Gorshkovs in additional shipyard


    True but they also need destroyers.
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:14 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:And best way to do it is to start building Gorshkovs in additional shipyard

    This is a nuclear ship that would go to Sevmash and have zero interference with Gorshkovs being built in other, conventional shipyards.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:34 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:And best way to do it is to start building Gorshkovs in additional shipyard

    This is a nuclear ship that would go to Sevmash and have zero interference with Gorshkovs being built in other, conventional shipyards.

    Only way it would make sense to overhaul Lazarov is that if they somehow actually discovered something new (and very positive) about ship's condition in which case​ they would have to:

    1) Check to make sure that reactor is 100% in excellent condition

    2) Send several hundred engineering gophers to go over the whole thing and catalog every single detail down to paint that might be chipped in the odd shape

    3) Wait to see if trials of Nakhimov show that it not only works well but that it works beyond everyone's wildest dreams

    4) Then and only then should they sit down and come up upgrade plan that takes into account every last thing that might go sideways and have solution ready in advance

    And finally if they do commit to upgrading Lazarov it should be done in parallel with Peter the Great side by side otherwise by the time both are done Nakhimov will be ready for retirement and they'd be back to square one


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    Post  LMFS on Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:31 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Only way it would make sense to overhaul Lazarov is that if they somehow actually discovered something new (and very positive) about ship's condition in which case​ they would have to:

    1) Check to make sure that reactor is 100% in excellent condition

    2) Send several hundred engineering gophers to go over the whole thing and catalog every single detail down to paint that might be chipped in the odd shape

    3) Wait to see if trials of Nakhimov show that it not only works well but that it works beyond everyone's wildest dreams

    4) Then and only then should they sit down and come up upgrade plan that takes into account every last thing that might go sideways and have solution ready in advance

    And finally if they do commit to upgrading Lazarov it should be done in parallel with Peter the Great side by side otherwise by the time both are done Nakhimov will be ready for retirement and they'd be back to square one


    With old ships it is impossible to know to 100% in what condition the hidden parts are... you need to disassemble to be sure, either they accept that risk or they can scrap the ship already. The advantage is that they have already created a lot of experience with the Nakhimov, so there is reasonable hope that it can be put to good use by modernizing the PV and the Lazarev faster and with less problems, it would be a pity not to use all that knowledge further. As to the reactor, just a silly question: is it not possible to simply change it?

    Of course they should wait for the Nakhimov to be ready and tested and the risk the whole story taking ages to be completed is real...
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:25 am

    Yet when they went inside Lazarov's hull they found major problems....

    The plan was at first to bring all four back into service but upon inspection, they found the first two ships were beyond acceptable conditions...

    So some nameless source says the ship is in good condition? got any proof to back that up?.

    The article is relying on proof from a worker of the shipyard, and an unnamed official. That's just here say.

    What do have is official statements from the Russians that the first two ships will not be modernized.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:32 am

    And best way to do it is to start building Gorshkovs in additional shipyard

    They will need to do that sooner or later even just to get experience making new ships.... if they only have one shipyard making new ships then it will take quite a while before they get to new cruisers...

    True but they also need destroyers.

    Once they have upgraded the Udaloys and Slavas and Kirovs that they want to upgrade they should have enough larger ships for a period... more frigates and corvettes will get them right for coastal defence and patrol, and then the shipyards can switch to destroyers and cruisers... which will likely be nuclear powered and need different propulsion and would probably benefit most from all electric propulsion...

    And finally if they do commit to upgrading Lazarov it should be done in parallel with Peter the Great side by side otherwise by the time both are done Nakhimov will be ready for retirement and they'd be back to square one

    Actually I would think the best thing to do would be to use it as an all electric drive ship and remove its entire and relatively complex propulsion system and replace it with a new high power nuclear power generation system... with their new destroyers and cruisers they will likely need to be working with all electric drives and nuclear propulsion anyway, so a nice big ship... they will have five other big ships if they need them, and they can learn with a full sized test dummy.

    If it all goes tits up and is bloody useless... it would be hardly a critical loss to the navy to have two Kirovs instead of three... and it is an excellent chance to make a serious step forward in naval technology... and if it works well then can be used to further upgrade the other two Kirovs...

    With old ships it is impossible to know to 100% in what condition the hidden parts are...

    You can learn a lot from solving problems... but building brand new from scratch can still have problems you wont find until they are clearly a problem... like your engine cooling system doesn't work in the med because the water temperature is too high to cool the engine... just for instance.

    Perhaps one of the two that they were not going to modernise can be used as the basis for testing new propulsion systems, or all electric drives...
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    Post  Begome on Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:23 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Yet when they went inside Lazarov's hull they found major problems....

    The plan was at first to bring all four back into service but upon inspection, they found the first two ships were beyond acceptable conditions...

    So some nameless source says the ship is in good condition? got any proof to back that up?.

    The article is relying on proof from a worker of the shipyard, and an unnamed official. That's just here say.

    What do have is official statements from the Russians that the first two ships will not be modernized.
    I posted the proof, which includes statements that the Lazarev's hull is in very good condition, and the government can change its mind; in 2018 they also proclaimed they will recycle the two Typhoon in reserve, but in 2019 they said that these plans have been cancelled and that they now plan to repair and modernize them to become Kalibr-carrying SSGNs (glas.ru/politics/5853-v-ssha-opasajutsja-gigantskoj-rossijskoj-akuly.html).
    Whether one or the other will actually happen is not absolutely certain, but obviously not everything that is announced once will happen with certainty, including announcements of plans to scrap something.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:55 pm

    Begome wrote:...in 2018 they also proclaimed they will recycle the two Typhoon in reserve, but in 2019 they said that these plans have been cancelled and that they now plan to repair and modernize them to become Kalibr-carrying SSGNs (glas.ru/politics/5853-v-ssha-opasajutsja-gigantskoj-rossijskoj-akuly.html).

    What?

    That Typhoon thing was nothing more than one-off tabloid rumor, those two boats are getting the scraper the moment reactors air out enough

    You need to check your sources more carefully


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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:05 pm

    With ships the more you let them unused the more they rust.

    If they really want to upgrade them they better start faster.
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    Post  Begome on Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:31 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:What?

    That Typhoon thing was nothing more than one-off tabloid rumor, those two boats are getting the scraper the moment reactors air out enough

    You need to check your sources more carefully
    I never claimed that I have any inside info so it may very well be just a "one-off tabloid rumour", but they do quote a navy vice-admiral by name, so I hope that you have some sources showing how he confirmed to never have said that.
    I looked through the Typhoon thread here and I couldn't find anyone posting such a source.
    So it looks to me that I have a source and a name and you don't.
    Isos wrote:With ships the more you let them unused the more they rust.

    If they really want to upgrade them they better start faster.
    That's why they typically give them a special paint to keep them from rusting if they're going to be laid up in reserve for long, which is exactly what they did with the Ushakov and Lazarev.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:04 pm

    That's why they typically give them a special paint to keep them from rusting if they're going to be laid up in reserve for long, which is exactly what they did with the Ushakov and Lazarev.

    Not really. I don't know when the picture were taken but it rust totally and it should be worst today.

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    Post  Begome on Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:40 pm

    Not really. I don't know when the picture were taken but it rust totally and it should be worst today.
    Well that's more rust than I expected, but it's not like "totally rusted"...I doubt that anything is destroyed by the rust in that state...most of the area seems to only have little rust on it.
    The source for the paintjob, which is supposed to have happened in 2014 is flotprom (flotprom.ru/2014/178567/). Could be the pictures were taken before that?

    I do agree that a decision will have to be made sooner rather than later, though...especially due to the reactor needing to be either serviced or dismantled within the next few years.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:10 pm

    Well you need an expertize to see how damaged it is. We can see that all the ship is affected but it could be superficial just as it could be too much to be repaired.

    If the hull's strenght is affected they can't repair it or it would be too much and would reach, with the modernization, the price of a new cruiser.

    It's not used for now more than 20 years...

    A new cruiser would be much better. New efficient design around modern VLS, modern reactor, modern and standardized equipment and share common stuff with the rest of the new ships. It would also last more than those old ships.

    2 modernized kirov is enough.
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    Post  Begome on Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:22 pm

    Well you need an expertize to see how damaged it is. We can see that all the ship is affected but it could be superficial just as it could be too much to be repaired.

    If the hull's strenght is affected they can't repair it or it would be too much and would reach, with the modernization, the price of a new cruiser.

    It's not used for now more than 20 years...
    Fair enough, but I did post a source saying that "specialists" have looked at the ship and found the hull to be in very good condition. You may claim this to be false, but without proof that is a weak assertion and your photos may well be from e.g. 2012, 13 years after being put in reserve, with the rust having been cleaned off in the repair/repainting they did.
    A new cruiser would be much better. New efficient design around modern VLS, modern reactor, modern and standardized equipment and share common stuff with the rest of the new ships. It would also last more than those old ships.
    If they had much more money available I would agree, but my personal speculation is that there won't be another real cruiser or battlecruiser project until the next armament plan starts (2028). On the one hand I think they're speculating that the Russian economy will pick up in the second half of the decade and on the other they simply have a lot going on already what with the (IMO more likely) new CVN project starting possibly next year and the "Super-Gorshkovs" and the expensive Yasen etc. etc. and, finally, they can't afford to be to brazen about another large cruiser or battlecruiser project after having promised the Lider and then having to admit that it was cancelled.
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:You can learn a lot from solving problems... but building brand new from scratch can still have problems you wont find until they are clearly a problem... like your engine cooling system doesn't work in the med because the water temperature is too high to cool the engine... just for instance.

    Yes, good point. There are a lot of risks from overhauling an old ship, but creating a new one is normally much worse... for how long have the newer ship and sub classes being in development in Russia? Many of them were conceived back in the USSR...
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:17 pm

    Begome wrote:
    Fair enough, but I did post a source saying that "specialists" have looked at the ship and found the hull to be in very good condition. You may claim this to be false, but without proof that is a weak assertion and your photos may well be from e.g. 2012, 13 years after being put in reserve, with the rust having been cleaned off in the repair/repainting they did.

    If they had much more money available I would agree, but my personal speculation is that there won't be another real cruiser or battlecruiser project until the next armament plan starts (2028). On the one hand I think they're speculating that the Russian economy will pick up in the second half of the decade and on the other they simply have a lot going on already what with the (IMO more likely) new CVN project starting possibly next year and the "Super-Gorshkovs" and the expensive Yasen etc. etc. and, finally, they can't afford to be to brazen about another large cruiser or battlecruiser project after having promised the Lider and then having to admit that it was cancelled.

    Idk but even if it was repainted there is a big part of the hull that is underwater for 30 years or more. Those expert might not be objective and are pushed to say it is worth putting money on the project because the navy really needs that ship.


    Money is not a big issue. They use Rubles which is controlled by the Russian banks and depends on Russian economy which is quite independant of other countries. They use russian shipyards, russian workers, russian companies.... everything russian so the money will just go in russians hands and will come back thanks to taxes. I guess it's a good way to give people jobs.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:07 am

    Current photo of Lazarev (05-06-2020).  Not much rust visible, mostly just discolorations/stains  from weathering. Much of the superstructure seems to have been treated with anti-corrosion paint during the 2014 dry docking (bottom pic)

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:10 pm

    Surface rust forms very quickly on any ship in salt water environments... brand new ships rust very quickly but it is normally surface rust that just needs to be sanded down and primed and painted.

    If they really want to keep their options open then maintaining the exterior is not that hard to ensure they remain viable in the future... if the plan is just to scrap them then doing it sooner is always cheaper than doing it later, but they need to look at their other options first before they can really make an informed decision.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:50 pm

    Well it looks good. And they already removed the old equipment.

    I easily see an integrated mast in the place of the current one. And a Podberezovik radar with 500km range in the second mast.

    That would make it so much better. I hope Nakhimov will get one too.
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    Post  George1 on Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:18 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Current photo of Lazarev (05-06-2020).  Not much rust visible, mostly just discolorations/stains  from weathering. Much of the superstructure seems to have been treated with anti-corrosion paint during the 2014 dry docking (bottom pic)

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    not current, its before 3 years Very Happy

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t575p400-upgraded-kirov-class-project-11442-admiral-nakhimov#210531

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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:12 am

    Yes, the dry dock photo is old (2014-ish) but the top pic is current AFAIK.

    1144 Lazarev is not the 1164 Ukraina. Laughing
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    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:02 am

    Are we really talking Lazarev again? censored Rolling Eyes
    Lazarev is still as dead now as it was years ago.

    Wasn't there a contract for scrapping it more recently?
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    Post  Isos on Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:07 pm

    hoom wrote:Are we really talking Lazarev again? censored Rolling Eyes
    Lazarev is still as dead now as it was years ago.

    Wasn't there a contract for scrapping it more recently?

    If they repainted it in 2014 then it means they are not sure what to do of it.

    Talks are talks not final decision. Contract for scraping would have been signed by today if it was meant for scraping.

    The results and the lessons of the Nakhimov modernization compared to Gorshkov class project will decide of its future. If they find out that Nakhimov modernization could have been faster and not that expensive making the ships X time better than its old design and better than a Super Gorshkov then they might put money on Lazarev too.

    The growing tensions in the world will also push them to consider having more big ships.

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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:32 pm

    Isos wrote:
    hoom wrote:Are we really talking Lazarev again? censored Rolling Eyes
    Lazarev is still as dead now as it was years ago.

    Wasn't there a contract for scrapping it more recently?

    If they repainted it in 2014 then it means they are not sure what to do of it...


    They have to keep it painted in order to keep it from decomposing before it gets scrapped

    You don't want reactor collapsing into the ocean

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    Post  Isos on Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:19 pm

    They would have removed the reactor if they wanted to scrap it.

    Plenty of nuclear ship/subs got their reactors removed quickly and let afloat waiting for scraping for years.

    Repainting means they were still considering keeping it. Since the reactor is still inside they are still considering upgrading it.

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