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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:05 pm

    With ships the more you let them unused the more they rust.

    If they really want to upgrade them they better start faster.
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    Post  Begome on Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:31 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:What?

    That Typhoon thing was nothing more than one-off tabloid rumor, those two boats are getting the scraper the moment reactors air out enough

    You need to check your sources more carefully
    I never claimed that I have any inside info so it may very well be just a "one-off tabloid rumour", but they do quote a navy vice-admiral by name, so I hope that you have some sources showing how he confirmed to never have said that.
    I looked through the Typhoon thread here and I couldn't find anyone posting such a source.
    So it looks to me that I have a source and a name and you don't.
    Isos wrote:With ships the more you let them unused the more they rust.

    If they really want to upgrade them they better start faster.
    That's why they typically give them a special paint to keep them from rusting if they're going to be laid up in reserve for long, which is exactly what they did with the Ushakov and Lazarev.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:04 pm

    That's why they typically give them a special paint to keep them from rusting if they're going to be laid up in reserve for long, which is exactly what they did with the Ushakov and Lazarev.

    Not really. I don't know when the picture were taken but it rust totally and it should be worst today.

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    Post  Begome on Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:40 pm

    Not really. I don't know when the picture were taken but it rust totally and it should be worst today.
    Well that's more rust than I expected, but it's not like "totally rusted"...I doubt that anything is destroyed by the rust in that state...most of the area seems to only have little rust on it.
    The source for the paintjob, which is supposed to have happened in 2014 is flotprom (flotprom.ru/2014/178567/). Could be the pictures were taken before that?

    I do agree that a decision will have to be made sooner rather than later, though...especially due to the reactor needing to be either serviced or dismantled within the next few years.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:10 pm

    Well you need an expertize to see how damaged it is. We can see that all the ship is affected but it could be superficial just as it could be too much to be repaired.

    If the hull's strenght is affected they can't repair it or it would be too much and would reach, with the modernization, the price of a new cruiser.

    It's not used for now more than 20 years...

    A new cruiser would be much better. New efficient design around modern VLS, modern reactor, modern and standardized equipment and share common stuff with the rest of the new ships. It would also last more than those old ships.

    2 modernized kirov is enough.
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    Post  Begome on Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:22 pm

    Well you need an expertize to see how damaged it is. We can see that all the ship is affected but it could be superficial just as it could be too much to be repaired.

    If the hull's strenght is affected they can't repair it or it would be too much and would reach, with the modernization, the price of a new cruiser.

    It's not used for now more than 20 years...
    Fair enough, but I did post a source saying that "specialists" have looked at the ship and found the hull to be in very good condition. You may claim this to be false, but without proof that is a weak assertion and your photos may well be from e.g. 2012, 13 years after being put in reserve, with the rust having been cleaned off in the repair/repainting they did.
    A new cruiser would be much better. New efficient design around modern VLS, modern reactor, modern and standardized equipment and share common stuff with the rest of the new ships. It would also last more than those old ships.
    If they had much more money available I would agree, but my personal speculation is that there won't be another real cruiser or battlecruiser project until the next armament plan starts (2028). On the one hand I think they're speculating that the Russian economy will pick up in the second half of the decade and on the other they simply have a lot going on already what with the (IMO more likely) new CVN project starting possibly next year and the "Super-Gorshkovs" and the expensive Yasen etc. etc. and, finally, they can't afford to be to brazen about another large cruiser or battlecruiser project after having promised the Lider and then having to admit that it was cancelled.
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    Post  LMFS on Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:05 am

    GarryB wrote:You can learn a lot from solving problems... but building brand new from scratch can still have problems you wont find until they are clearly a problem... like your engine cooling system doesn't work in the med because the water temperature is too high to cool the engine... just for instance.

    Yes, good point. There are a lot of risks from overhauling an old ship, but creating a new one is normally much worse... for how long have the newer ship and sub classes being in development in Russia? Many of them were conceived back in the USSR...
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:17 am

    Begome wrote:
    Fair enough, but I did post a source saying that "specialists" have looked at the ship and found the hull to be in very good condition. You may claim this to be false, but without proof that is a weak assertion and your photos may well be from e.g. 2012, 13 years after being put in reserve, with the rust having been cleaned off in the repair/repainting they did.

    If they had much more money available I would agree, but my personal speculation is that there won't be another real cruiser or battlecruiser project until the next armament plan starts (2028). On the one hand I think they're speculating that the Russian economy will pick up in the second half of the decade and on the other they simply have a lot going on already what with the (IMO more likely) new CVN project starting possibly next year and the "Super-Gorshkovs" and the expensive Yasen etc. etc. and, finally, they can't afford to be to brazen about another large cruiser or battlecruiser project after having promised the Lider and then having to admit that it was cancelled.

    Idk but even if it was repainted there is a big part of the hull that is underwater for 30 years or more. Those expert might not be objective and are pushed to say it is worth putting money on the project because the navy really needs that ship.


    Money is not a big issue. They use Rubles which is controlled by the Russian banks and depends on Russian economy which is quite independant of other countries. They use russian shipyards, russian workers, russian companies.... everything russian so the money will just go in russians hands and will come back thanks to taxes. I guess it's a good way to give people jobs.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:07 pm

    Current photo of Lazarev (05-06-2020).  Not much rust visible, mostly just discolorations/stains  from weathering. Much of the superstructure seems to have been treated with anti-corrosion paint during the 2014 dry docking (bottom pic)

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:10 pm

    Surface rust forms very quickly on any ship in salt water environments... brand new ships rust very quickly but it is normally surface rust that just needs to be sanded down and primed and painted.

    If they really want to keep their options open then maintaining the exterior is not that hard to ensure they remain viable in the future... if the plan is just to scrap them then doing it sooner is always cheaper than doing it later, but they need to look at their other options first before they can really make an informed decision.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:50 pm

    Well it looks good. And they already removed the old equipment.

    I easily see an integrated mast in the place of the current one. And a Podberezovik radar with 500km range in the second mast.

    That would make it so much better. I hope Nakhimov will get one too.
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    Post  George1 on Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:18 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Current photo of Lazarev (05-06-2020).  Not much rust visible, mostly just discolorations/stains  from weathering. Much of the superstructure seems to have been treated with anti-corrosion paint during the 2014 dry docking (bottom pic)

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    not current, its before 3 years Very Happy

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t575p400-upgraded-kirov-class-project-11442-admiral-nakhimov#210531

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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:12 am

    Yes, the dry dock photo is old (2014-ish) but the top pic is current AFAIK.

    1144 Lazarev is not the 1164 Ukraina. Laughing
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    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:02 am

    Are we really talking Lazarev again? censored Rolling Eyes
    Lazarev is still as dead now as it was years ago.

    Wasn't there a contract for scrapping it more recently?
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    Post  Isos on Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:07 pm

    hoom wrote:Are we really talking Lazarev again? censored Rolling Eyes
    Lazarev is still as dead now as it was years ago.

    Wasn't there a contract for scrapping it more recently?

    If they repainted it in 2014 then it means they are not sure what to do of it.

    Talks are talks not final decision. Contract for scraping would have been signed by today if it was meant for scraping.

    The results and the lessons of the Nakhimov modernization compared to Gorshkov class project will decide of its future. If they find out that Nakhimov modernization could have been faster and not that expensive making the ships X time better than its old design and better than a Super Gorshkov then they might put money on Lazarev too.

    The growing tensions in the world will also push them to consider having more big ships.

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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:32 pm

    Isos wrote:
    hoom wrote:Are we really talking Lazarev again? censored Rolling Eyes
    Lazarev is still as dead now as it was years ago.

    Wasn't there a contract for scrapping it more recently?

    If they repainted it in 2014 then it means they are not sure what to do of it...


    They have to keep it painted in order to keep it from decomposing before it gets scrapped

    You don't want reactor collapsing into the ocean

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    Post  Isos on Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:19 pm

    They would have removed the reactor if they wanted to scrap it.

    Plenty of nuclear ship/subs got their reactors removed quickly and let afloat waiting for scraping for years.

    Repainting means they were still considering keeping it. Since the reactor is still inside they are still considering upgrading it.

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    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:49 am

    PapaDragon wrote:They have to keep it painted in order to keep it from decomposing before it gets scrapped

    You don't want reactor collapsing into the ocean

    Bullshit.  If that is the case, why haven't they done the same for the Kirov/Ushakov?  She has been tied up for the best part of 30 years in reserve and has never seen a dry-dock in all that time.

    The fact is that the 1144s were built to last, her hulls metallurgy is excellent, and the Lazarev has been mothballed with adequate preservation to allow her to be re-activated and rebuilt should the need arise.  The only real question is whether the Russian Navy needs her.  That question has never been fully resolved (despite the many and varied public announcments), and it seems clear now that the final decision will not be made until Nahkimov is back in service and the Navy can fully evaluate her and arrive at a demonstrable cost/benefit evaluation.

    If Nahkimov is deemed a technical success (and lessons have been learned during her modernisation that can be applied to speed up future conversions) then I have no problem believing they may reactivate Lazarev and leave PtG till last.  The Lider destroyer has been deferred, so that adds impetus to retaining the older 1144s.

    The fact that some people can't accept this logic says more about their own incapacity to admit errors of judgement than it does about the physical condition of these vessels or the changing threat environment that influences their eventual fate.
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    Post  hoom on Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:29 am

    Not sure what to do with it in 2014 when Putin was coming to inspect does not mean they're still not sure what to do with it in 2020.

    Nakhimov proved to be in significantly worse shape than they thought, its been multiply delayed & cost a lot more than expected to the point at least one upper end navy type openly pondered cancelling all the planned upgrades & spending the $$$ on new current in-build ships.
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    Post  william.boutros on Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:04 pm

    hoom wrote:Not sure what to do with it in 2014 when Putin was coming to inspect does not mean they're still not sure what to do with it in 2020.

    Nakhimov proved to be in significantly worse shape than they thought, its been multiply delayed & cost a lot more than expected to the point at least one upper end navy type openly pondered cancelling all the planned upgrades & spending the $$$ on new current in-build ships.

    They do need ocean going ships one way or another.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:25 pm

    As I have mentioned it is an opportunity to test new reactors and perhaps even all electric propulsion systems, not to mention new large radar sensors and equipment that only their biggest ships will carry so they can get a bit of experience and training with the big systems they will need for their cruisers and destroyers... and indeed any new aircraft carriers.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:04 pm

    hoom wrote:Nakhimov proved to be in significantly worse shape than they thought, its been multiply delayed & cost a lot more than expected to the point at least one upper end navy type openly pondered cancelling all the planned upgrades & spending the $$$ on new current in-build ships.

    Authoritative sources pls?  Some anonymous officer "openly pondered"??  Big deal.  We all know how this game is played.  Everyone with a hidden agenda gives their narratives to the media and some ignorant hack chooses to give them a platform.  Without trustworthy sources (eg a statement from Shoigu) its all just a load of chatter around the office water cooler.

    Here's another scenario.  Changes in requirements during the build, and poorly-performing sub-contractors who don't deliver on time and who submit endless claims for cost variations. Add to that the usual unknowns involved in ship rebuilds or major upgrades that ALWAYS occur on similar sized projects. Meh, this sort of rebuild is hard work and technically complex, and its easy for the uninvolved critics to slag off from the sidelines, but it will be worth it.

    Lets see what happens when the Nahkimov is finished.  Unless of course the navy actually signs a contract for scrapping the Lazarev, but so far that hasn't happened, and i don't expect it will yet.

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    Post  kvs on Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:01 pm

    The only reason the Lazerv is not being actively modernized is because of budget constraints. That's right, these days budget expenditures in Russia
    are constrained. This was not an issue during the USSR period, but there were other serious problems instead.

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    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:07 pm

    kvs wrote:The only reason the Lazerv is not being actively modernized is because of budget constraints.   That's right, these days budget expenditures in Russia
    are constrained.   This was not an issue during the USSR period, but there were other serious problems instead.


    100%, and budget constraints are not a sign of a "stagnant economy" like the usual gang of Western fuktards are constantly accusing Russia of having. They are the signs of responsible financial governance. Thats why Russia has 600B of forex reserves and gold at her command, enough to pay down her entire public and corporate debt, while the exceptional Western nations (including Or-strayl-ya) all drown in a sea of red ink.

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