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    Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    RTN
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    Post  RTN Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:20 pm

    Mir wrote:The Indian Su-30MKI was able to out fly all of it's Western counterparts (incl the F15) during dogfight exercises - mainly due to Russian thrust vectoring engines and it's Russian IRTS.
    Indian Flankers are a classic example of mediocre Russian export models. Several technologies on board the aircraft that's operated by the RuAF was not exported. Consequently, Indians imported those technologies from Western countries and of late are probably trying to develop some of it themselves.

    Leave aside Western Air Force, as the events of February 2019 proved Indian Air Force can't even fight against fellow third world countries like Pakistan. Had one of their Mig 21 shot down by a F-16. Good fortune ensured that their pilot was returned in one piece by the Pakistanis.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:31 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Mir wrote:The Indian Su-30MKI was able to out fly all of it's Western counterparts (incl the F15) during dogfight exercises - mainly due to Russian thrust vectoring engines and it's Russian IRTS.
    Indian Flankers are a classic example of mediocre Russian export models. Several technologies on board the aircraft that's operated by the RuAF was not exported. Consequently, Indians imported those technologies from Western countries and of late are probably trying to develop some of it themselves.

    Leave aside Western Air Force, as the events of February 2019 proved Indian Air Force can't even fight against fellow third world countries like Pakistan. Had one of their Mig 21 shot down by a F-16. Good fortune ensured that their pilot was returned in one piece by the Pakistanis.

    Ok that's interesting! So by your own admission the F-15's and other Western fighters are even more mediocre than the Su-30MKI! Never thought you'd admit that! Shocked

    So India lost 1 Mig21 shot down by an F-16A...yip that really shows overwhelming air superiority! respekt

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:39 pm

    @RTN
    To get back to the Kilos:

    The Russian made Kilo submarine has earned the “black hole” nickname from the US Navy since its so difficult to detect. Even the export one's.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:40 am

    India imposed western technology because they were told it was better than russian. They just ended up with an expensive aircraft costing 70 million dollars when algerian or venezuelan su-30 were bought for 30 million each. At the end indian su-30 isn't any better.

    And you are quite wrong about the kilo being exported. The first improved kilos were made for export. It's just after seeing how good they were that russia ordereds some. First to order them was China back in the 90s and it was the project 636. Then Algeria and Vietnam ordered some too.

    Russia ordered its own just in the 2010s. And yes it was improved even more called project 636.3. But the export version being made first it wasn't a downgraded version but an improved version of old kilo.

    Indian kilos tracked a US los angoles class in an exercice in India with the US navy while being undetected.


    Just like pantsir was made for UAE and was much better than old tunguska operated by russia. Then when they saw how good it was russians ordered it.

    The other exemple is Grigorovitch frigate which was made for export and for India. When they saw how good it was russia ordered its own.


    S-400 export verion is however a downgraded s-400.

    Some of their stuff that are made exclusively for export are not downgraded because they don't use it in their forces. But when they decide to buy it for themselves they generally upgrade them because it happens some 10-15 years after the export modl is create. Mig-35 is also an export product mainly and isn't downgraded at all. Su-35 is made for russia so the export su-35 is downgraded.

    Their is a big difference.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:00 pm

    In any case, Russian export models are among the worst in the world, probably even worse than China's. Western governments do not export top of the line models. Diminished versions of local models are exported. Even then Western export models of military hardware are in orders of magnitude better than Russian export models.

    That is a very bold statement... do you have anything to back that up?

    Generally you get what you pay for and with western stuff you get no choice at all... you are either an F-5 country or an F-16 country and you don't get any say in the matter.

    But your military planners and aircraft designers seems to ignore that particular fact and seems to think BVR is the answer to all your air-to-air combat deficiencies. Major strategic flaw in my opinion.

    And look at the extreme reaction of the US in particular to exports of S-400s and Su-35s... I mean kicking Turkey out of the F-35 programme probably cost several billion dollars... what are they so afraid of?

    Indian Flankers are a classic example of mediocre Russian export models.

    Actually it is an example of Russian Flexibility. Apart from Israel, no country has been allowed to integrate any parts or weapons into the F-35 themselves... even countries that invested billions into the programme. How many Israeli or Russian bits did the French allow India to integrate into their Rafales?

    Several technologies on board the aircraft that's operated by the RuAF was not exported.

    At the time of the purchase the only other Su-30 in service was in service in the RuAF in the PVO units and it didn't have any amazing or exceptional technology except stuff that connected it to the Russian air defence system and to allow it to carry nuclear weapons... stuff that would be of no value to any other country for obvious reasons.

    The technologies added to the Su-30MKI for the Indian Airforce that came from Israel and France were enormously expensive and made the aircraft rather more expensive, and making it themselves increased costs even further, but at the time there were no Russian equivalents on offer... it was only later that Kret raised its game and came up with equivalent kit and in some cases perhaps better kit that was not for export, but I should be clear as long as India is prepared to pay for it there was not a lot that was off the table except nuclear related stuff that cannot be sold because of the NPT.

    When the Su-30MKI was developed it was the most capable and powerful Flanker in service anywhere, the slightly later Chinese Su-30MKK was less capable and sophisticated but aerodynamically they were both excellent and fully competitive on the international markets.

    It was only when the Su-35 entered Russian Service that they got a Flanker with better equipment, though the Su-34 is superior in strike and comfort regards.

    Much of the better avionics on the Su-35 were developed by Russia in response to what the Indians were getting with their Su-30MKI.

    Consequently, Indians imported those technologies from Western countries and of late are probably trying to develop some of it themselves.

    At the time the Russians didn't have any aircraft in service with those sorts of systems... now they do... many were fitted to Su-35s and next gen systems were added to Su-57 and for the LMFS and the prototypes were fitted to Su-35 and MiG-35.

    Leave aside Western Air Force, as the events of February 2019 proved Indian Air Force can't even fight against fellow third world countries like Pakistan. Had one of their Mig 21 shot down by a F-16. Good fortune ensured that their pilot was returned in one piece by the Pakistanis.

    Leaving aside the Chip on your shoulder, but wouldn't you expect an F-16 to defeat a MiG-21 most of the time?

    The entire design purpose of the F-16 was aerodynamic superiority over the MiG-21 specifically... that was what it was designed for.

    India imposed western technology because they were told it was better than russian. They just ended up with an expensive aircraft costing 70 million dollars when algerian or venezuelan su-30 were bought for 30 million each. At the end indian su-30 isn't any better.

    To be fair at the time it was better, but then why would it not be... the Russian Air Force of the time was happy with Su-27s and MiG-29s and was too tight to spend money on upgrades like the MiG-29SMT or the original Su-27M upgrades which never entered service so none of the new instruments and systems and equipment was being funded or bought... it was only after the Su-30MKI programme that they started looking at proper upgrades and improvements to their aircraft and newer better systems were developed.

    The western systems were much better, but as you say almost doubled the price of the aircraft... but then local assembly increases costs too so part of that will be this as well.

    And you are quite wrong about the kilo being exported. The first improved kilos were made for export. It's just after seeing how good they were that russia ordereds some. First to order them was China back in the 90s and it was the project 636. Then Algeria and Vietnam ordered some too.

    Quite the same situation as the Su-30MKI actually... the first Su-30M (Project 877) entered service in about 1980s and they made a few for themselves but unlike the Su-30 they exported a few to friendly navies including Iran and other countries. By the mid 1990s they had lots of things they could upgrade but the Russian Navy wasn't interested... just like the Russian Air Force wasn't interested in upgraded fighters. Essentially Chinese and Indian orders paid for the upgrades... with the upgraded Indian models called Project 877EKM, and the Chinese models Project 636. The Chinese essentially paid more and got better subs.
    The Russian Navy had a lot of Kilo class subs and as you mention didn't get around to ordering new upgraded Project 636s till 2010 as the older subs left service.

    Just like pantsir was made for UAE and was much better than old tunguska operated by russia.

    To be fair Tunguska are two different systems... the UAE paid for Pantsir to be upgraded and made better than old Pantsir.

    The Tunguska is an Army vehicle intended to operate with armoured units to provide protection from aircraft in combat, while the Pantsir is a shelterised system used by the Air Force to defend their bigger missiles (S-300 and S-400 batteries).

    The Pantsir upgrade was radical and expensive but made significant improvements in performance... instead of upgrades the search and tracking radars were replaced with much better new models and the 2A72 single barrel guns from the BMP-3 were replaced with the 2A38M twin barrel cannon from the Tunguska, which made them vastly more effective.

    Then when they saw how good it was russians ordered it.

    When the UAE order paid for production then they took advantage and ordered some for themselves... much the same way as the notoriously tight Russian Navy bought MiG-29KR deck fighters when India ordered some and paid for tooling and setting up production too.

    The other exemple is Grigorovitch frigate which was made for export and for India. When they saw how good it was russia ordered its own.

    The Krivaks were modified into Talwars with new systems, and then they developed the Grigorovitch, but the plans were for the Gorshkov to be the core of Frigates in the Russian Navy... an enlarged version being developed now.

    Some of their stuff that are made exclusively for export are not downgraded because they don't use it in their forces.

    And because the customer is paying for it they got a lot of equipment that the Russian military couldn't afford at the time either so it was actually better than the domestically used stuff... for the time... but not now obviously.

    Mig-35 is also an export product mainly and isn't downgraded at all.

    Had India bought MiG-35s then their "upgraded MiG-29" would be fundamentally better than any MiG-29 in Russian service, but they went for the Rafale instead and now the Russians have their own MiG-35s trickling into service their money is going in to the new technologies that aircraft is introducing in the Russian military.

    Su-35 is made for russia so the export su-35 is downgraded.

    Very true, but some of the systems on the export models will not be downgraded as such, rather missing, because there is no export version of that equipment, or the customer doens't need it... (like the equipment that ties the aircraft into the Russian IADS or the equipment for managing and carrying nuclear weapons etc etc.
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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:49 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Actually it is an example of Russian Flexibility. Apart from Israel, no country has been allowed to integrate any parts or weapons into the F-35 themselves... even countries that invested billions into the programme. How many Israeli or Russian bits did the French allow India to integrate into their Rafales?

    To be honest, this alone is a fact created back in times when beggars could not be choosers. Russian MIC was forced to accept even the most bizarre requests from its customers, in order to survive. It is hardly a case now, the best example is India's participation in Su-57 project. They obviously have heard "no" one ant the last time Laughing

    RTN
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    Post  RTN Yesterday at 4:23 pm

    Isos wrote:And you are quite wrong about the kilo being exported. The first improved kilos were made for export. It's just after seeing how good they were that russia ordereds some. First to order them was China back in the 90s and it was the project 636. Then Algeria and Vietnam ordered some too.

    Russia ordered its own just in the 2010s. And yes it was improved even more called project 636.3. But the export version being made first it wasn't a downgraded version but an improved version of old kilo.
    Look maybe the Kilo was a good conventional sub as was the German Type 214. But the thing with conventional submarines is that they are way past their use by date. Nuclear submarines and Extra Large UUVs (XLUUVs) are the future.

    We are already developing XLUUVs like the ORCA that can be loaded on a heavy lift aircraft and can be dropped thousands of miles away within an hour or two.

    https://www.naval-technology.com/features/boeing-orca-xluuv-unmanned-submarine/

    These XLUUVs will now be armed with a few torpedoes maybe even a few anti ship missiles.

    Can you even imagine this kind of flexibility.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Yesterday at 9:43 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Isos wrote:And you are quite wrong about the kilo being exported. The first improved kilos were made for export. It's just after seeing how good they were that russia ordereds some. First to order them was China back in the 90s and it was the project 636. Then Algeria and Vietnam ordered some too.

    Russia ordered its own just in the 2010s. And yes it was improved even more called project 636.3. But the export version being made first it wasn't a downgraded version but an improved version of old kilo.
    Look maybe the Kilo was a good conventional sub as was the German Type 214. But the thing with conventional submarines is that they are way past their use by date. Nuclear submarines and Extra Large UUVs (XLUUVs) are the future.

    We are already developing XLUUVs like the ORCA that can be loaded on a heavy lift aircraft and can be dropped thousands of miles away within an hour or two.

    https://www.naval-technology.com/features/boeing-orca-xluuv-unmanned-submarine/

    These XLUUVs will now be armed with a few torpedoes maybe even a few anti ship missiles.

    Can you even imagine this kind of flexibility.

    When the Nautilus was launched in back in 1954 US Naval planners concluded that the conventional submarine was dead and gone but the reality elsewhere was quite the opposite. Both the Germans and Soviets in particular build many classes of conventional subs and had great export success. Conventional subs are particularly useful in shallow waters - not so with the larger nuclear subs. The US actually excluded themselves from a very lucrative market by not building conventional subs.

    New developments in the Japanese Taigei class submarines shows that conventional subs are definitely here to stay and they pose a very serious threat to nuclear powered subs. I am sure the Russians are already developing subs with lithium-ion battery propulsion.

    The XLUUV is an impressive machine but in terms of flexibility nothing compares to the Belgorod in my opinion.

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    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Yesterday at 11:55 pm

    Muricanz are disparaging of conventional subs simply because they don't have any. The US sub fleet is a power projection asset designed for aggression and needs to be able to cross the Atlantic and Pacific oceans before they can patrol along other nations SLOCs and coastlines, so they have no choice but to go for an all-nuclear force. Defence-minded nations looking to defend their littoral sea-spaces have different needs, and SSKs give them capabilities at an affordable cost (plus gives them parity with their neighbours).

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Today at 12:08 am


    People always forget to take geography into account

    New air dropable XLUUV is sounds great but why would someone bother with dropping anything out of cargo aircraft when the target zone is just couple of hundred miles (or less) away from your coastline like in case of Russia?

    Also you can never fully replace conventional sub with a drone because of same old problem as with UAVs: if nobody is there to babysit the robots the robots may screw the pooch and start the war by accident and this is even bigger problem with communicating underwater

    Conventional subs are dirt cheap and Kilo can stay submerged for two weeks which is more than enough for any non-nuclear boat to do whatever it needs to do

    And finally Kilo does already have a replacement in production, they are sticking around longer than average simply for being crazy cheap and capable and are built faster than OPVs

    If you have something good ride it as long as you can, basic logic




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    calripson

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    Post  calripson Today at 9:03 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Muricanz are disparaging of conventional subs simply because they don't have any.  The US sub fleet is a power projection asset designed for aggression and needs to be able to cross the Atlantic and Pacific oceans before they can patrol along other nations SLOCs and coastlines, so they have no choice but to go for an all-nuclear force. Defence-minded nations looking to defend their littoral sea-spaces have different needs, and SSKs give them capabilities at an affordable cost (plus gives them parity with their neighbours).

    Expensive is the operative word for the shipyards in America. It's all about the $$$ gravy train.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Today at 3:31 pm

    These XLUUVs will now be armed with a few torpedoes maybe even a few anti ship missiles.

    Can you even imagine this kind of flexibility.

    WOW... carrying a few torpedoes and a few anti ship missiles... that is amazing... except part of the job of a SSK is patrol... looking around the place for things that should not be there... these UUVs can't do that from an aircraft, so you need ships or other subs in the water looking for things and monitoring so you can locate the things you need to fly these UUVs out to deal with... but that sounds a bit stupid really when a few good subs would do a better job for longer... and be much better armed and equipped.

    A SSK is an excellent spy platform that can go all sorts of places and watch and record and bring back useful information....

    New developments in the Japanese Taigei class submarines shows that conventional subs are definitely here to stay and they pose a very serious threat to nuclear powered subs. I am sure the Russians are already developing subs with lithium-ion battery propulsion.

    There are new battery technologies to explore and fund... that is the key for the future and some sort of AIP that can recharge the batteries while remaining submerged...

    Defence-minded nations looking to defend their littoral sea-spaces have different needs, and SSKs give them capabilities at an affordable cost (plus gives them parity with their neighbours).

    Very true, but it has been a real kick in the balls for the nuclear only USN to realise conventional subs are much quieter than other types and can sneak up on their best vessels and therefore likely sink them... bit of a shock to the system really...

    Expensive is the operative word for the shipyards in America. It's all about the $$$ gravy train.

    Private Companies in the US know they can charge what they like without question and piss away the tax payers hard earned cash all they want because there is no accountability and no respect when it comes to defence.

    Perhaps a bit of privatisation is the solution... or some major prosecutions to transfer some of the enormous wealth that has gone to many billionaire owners of MIC companies back to the government coffers so it can be used properly.

    Any government official caught taking a bribe and any civilian caught offering a bribe should lead to public execution for treason perhaps?
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Today at 4:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Very true, but it has been a real kick in the balls for the nuclear only USN to realise conventional subs are much quieter than other types and can sneak up on their best vessels and therefore likely sink them... bit of a shock to the system really...

    The US leased/tested a Gotland class sub some years ago and it proved capable to sink it's carriers without being detected. It was also tested against the French Rubis class subs and the Spanish fleet. The Gotland won every engagement.

    [/quote]Any government official caught taking a bribe and any civilian caught offering a bribe should lead to public execution for treason perhaps?[/quote]

    That would prove VERY problematic in my country - it would be equal to genocide and very few left to govern lol1


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