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    Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:11 am

    George1 wrote:Diesel-electric submarine B-871 "Alrosa" will be transferred from the Black Sea Fleet to the Baltic

    https://en.topwar.ru/184439-dizel-jelektricheskuju-podlodku-b-871-alrosa-perevedut-s-chernomorskogo-flota-na-baltijskij.html

    Makes perfect sense, Baltic is hardly submarine hotbed but some subs are still needed there

    Sending Alrosa solves that problem, it's not exactly latest but it doesn't have too much mileage on it and area is much smaller hence it will be sailing as long as other Kilos currently in service elsewhere

    Waste not want not

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    hoom

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    Post  hoom Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:38 am

    They need to actually make some progress on fixing it first.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:38 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:Diesel-electric submarine B-871 "Alrosa" will be transferred from the Black Sea Fleet to the Baltic

    https://en.topwar.ru/184439-dizel-jelektricheskuju-podlodku-b-871-alrosa-perevedut-s-chernomorskogo-flota-na-baltijskij.html

    Makes perfect sense, Baltic is hardly submarine hotbed but some subs are still needed there

    Sending Alrosa solves that problem, it's not exactly latest but it doesn't have too much mileage on it and area is much smaller hence it will be sailing as long as other Kilos currently in service elsewhere

    Waste not want not


    exactly. Since new Kilos went to BSF and there are going to be also in PF then the old kilos should be transferred to (especially) Baltic and Northern fleets
    franco
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    Post  franco Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:30 am

    The Ministry of Defense will strengthen the Baltic Fleet with the latest diesel submarines of the 0636 project.3. The first in this series will be built the submarine "Petrozavodsk". In the future, several more ships of this project should be sent to the region. According to experts, they are well suited for the Baltic Sea and will become an effective means of deterring aggression against Russia.

    The first of a series of ships of the 0636.3 project, intended for service in the Baltic, is being prepared for laying, sources told Izvestia in the military department. It was named "Petrozavodsk". The contract for the construction was signed last year.

    In total, several such submarines are planned to be built for the Baltic Fleet (BF). The parameters of the new contract are currently being worked out, the sources said. There is no final decision yet whether one document will be signed for the entire batch or whether each ship will be ordered under a separate contract.

    According to sources, the ships planned to strengthen the BF will be built according to an improved project. They will be more effective compared to submarines that are already serving in the Black Sea and the Pacific Ocean.

    Project 0636.3 was developed in the Central Design Bureau "Rubin". It was based on the export version, which was supplied to China, Algeria and Vietnam. From 2010 to 2016, six ships were created for the Black Sea Fleet, then the manufacturer began to build a series of submarines for the Pacific Fleet . The first of them — Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky — was accepted by the TOPF at the end of 2019, the second — Volkhov-at the end of 2020. In March, the commander-in-chief of the Navy, Admiral Nikolai Evmenov, said that this year two more boats of this project — "Mozhaisk" and "Yakutsk"will be laid for the Pacific Fleet at the Admiralty shipyards. And the entire series of six ships intended for the Pacific Fleet, according to him, will be completed in 2024. The commander-in-chief stressed that the boats of the 0636.3 project are rightly considered the lowest noise in the world. They carry on board the latest inertial navigation system, a modern automated information and control system and powerful weapons, including high-precision missiles.

    At the end of May, Nikolai Evmenov said that the BF will be replenished with diesel boats, and its underwater component will correspond to the volume of tasks facing the fleet. According to him, the role of the BF has recently been increasing due to new challenges and threats associated with the expansion of the NATO presence near the borders of Russia.
    Deadly and silent

    Historically, submarines have been part of the BF since the birth of the submarine forces, but today the predecessors of the 0636.3 project ships are outdated and they need to be replaced, military expert Andrey Frolov told Izvestia.

    — By and large, we do not have another project of this class, — he noted. — There is still the 677 series, but it is unlikely that a significant number of such ships will be built in the coming years, and even if this happens, they will go to larger fleets — to the Northern or Pacific. The ships of the 0636.3 project will be able to show themselves well in the Baltic.

    The expert noted that modern diesel submarines are a serious weapon.

    — For Russia, the presence of submarines will allow to block the Baltic Straits and thereby close access to the sea. And since the boats of the 0636.3 project are cruise missile carriers, this significantly expands the capabilities of the BF. The fleet will thus receive a platform for launching warheads with a radius of at least 1000 km — " Andrei Frolov concluded.

    The submarines of the 0636.3 project are distinguished by perfect sonar complexes and can be effectively used for reconnaissance and surveillance, the former commander of the submarine, Rear Admiral Vsevolod Khmyrov, told Izvestia.

    "The actions of diesel submarines in such a theater of military operations are very important for providing reconnaissance, and if necessary, sabotage operations," he explained. - Submarines of this project are produced with new sonar and radar equipment, modern weapons control systems. These ships are universal weapons carriers, they can use torpedoes, torpedo missiles, cruise missiles.

    The ships of Project 0636.3 belong to the third generation of diesel-electric submarines and are considered one of the lowest noise in the world. They have a length of 74 m and a displacement of more than 3.9 thousand tons. They can dive to a depth of up to 300 m and have a range of up to 7.5 thousand miles. The main armament is the Kalibr-PL missile system.

    In recent years, Russia has been actively strengthening its defense in the Baltic. This year, the re-equipment of the 36th brigade of small missile ships (MRCS) is being completed. It will be completely re-equipped with the latest MRCS of projects 22800 and 22631, after which the BF will have a powerful strike group. The coastal forces are also actively developing. In particular, this year it is planned to deploy a division of Bastion missile systems near Kaliningrad. They are armed with supersonic Onyx anti-ship missiles capable of hitting targets at a range of up to 600 km. And the Bal complexes will be sent to St. Petersburg. This system is designed to protect the coast and straits, as well as to cover naval bases.

    https://iz.ru/1187216/roman-kretcul-anna-cherepanova/pod-baltiiskoi-volnoi-novye-submariny-otpraviat-na-severo-zapad

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:56 am


    So Kilo production will continue for Baltic as well

    Plus with transfer of Alrosa from Black Sea Baltic Fleet will soon be covered nicely

    Looks like Ladas will be reserved for North Fleet, makes sense since it's a priority location

    This is healthy approach, keep production of existing boats running in parallel with new ones until production of new ones catches up, if only they did this with surface ships....


    My personal opinion is that these new Baltic Fleet Kilos will spend most of their service life in Tartus, VMF needs subs in Mediterranean, rotating Black Sea Kilos is a legal hassle (plus they are needed back home) and Baltic Sea isn't really hotbed of submarine activity


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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:59 pm

    I would have thought that the 677's would be more suitable for the Baltic as they are smaller boats, but it is mentioned that only a small number will eventually be build.

    @PD. There is actually quite a lot of very capable "enemy subs" in the Baltic with the Swedes and the Germans leading the charge - so it's nice to see it's not going undetected.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:19 pm

    Mir wrote:I would have thought that the 677's would be more suitable for the Baltic as they are smaller boats, but it is mentioned that only a small number will eventually be build. ...

    677 are far superior to Kilos so it makes sense to station them where superior platforms are required (submarine bastion in the North which frees up SSNs for other work)

    Also build speed is still not up there with Kilos regardless of how many they plan to build


    Mir wrote:@PD. There is actually quite a lot of very capable "enemy subs" in the Baltic with the Swedes and the Germans leading the charge - so it's nice to see it's not going undetected.

    They do have capable subs but location makes them practically irelevant, if you have submarines shooting each other in the Baltics they would be doing it with​ mushroom clouds already clearing out in the background

    Plus it's basically a lake loaded with choke points and Eastern (important) half completely covered by ASW assets from Kaliningrad and Petersburg

    To say nothing of all that collateral damage sitting on the EU coastlines, those subs wouldn't dare to do anything other than watch and keep quiet, way too much to lose if they try anything else

    Sparing several Kilos from Baltic to be moved to Tartus would be easiest thing in the world



    Mir
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    Post  Mir Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:17 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Mir wrote:I would have thought that the 677's would be more suitable for the Baltic as they are smaller boats, but it is mentioned that only a small number will eventually be build. ...

    677 are far superior to Kilos so it makes sense to station them where superior platforms are required (submarine bastion in the North which frees up SSNs for other work)

    Also build speed is still not up there with Kilos regardless of how many they plan to build


    Mir wrote:@PD. There is actually quite a lot of very capable "enemy subs" in the Baltic with the Swedes and the Germans leading the charge - so it's nice to see it's not going undetected.

    They do have capable subs but location makes them practically irelevant, if you have submarines shooting each other in the Baltics they would be doing it with​ mushroom clouds already clearing out in the background

    Plus it's basically a lake loaded with choke points and Eastern (important) half completely covered by ASW assets from Kaliningrad and Petersburg

    To say nothing of all that collateral damage sitting on the EU coastlines, those subs wouldn't dare to do anything other than watch and keep quiet, way too much to lose if they try anything else

    Sparing several Kilos from Baltic to be moved to Tartus would be easiest thing in the world




    I'm thinking more clandestine roles and ultimately sea control - not a shoot fest as such. To have very few or old tech subs (636 excl) would give the enemy with these high end subs a huge advantage in any event.
    Struggling to get the "quote" right Laughing
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    Post  ALAMO Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:44 am

    Mir wrote:I would have thought that the 677's would be more suitable for the Baltic as they are smaller boats, but it is mentioned that only a small number will eventually be build.

    @PD. There is actually quite a lot of very capable "enemy subs" in the Baltic with the Swedes and the Germans leading the charge - so it's nice to see it's not going undetected.

    212 and Gotlands are very capable indeed, still ..
    The difference is in details ...
    Part of German 212s is tied to the pier with no crews on their hands.
    There was a discussion about creating a common PL-GER submarine division and command and granting the two of them to Polish crews.
    Poland was to lease them, but this discussion ended up back in 2013.
    Sweden has functionally only 2 A19s after a refit that can be considered here.
    With 3 modern 636.3 on hand, BF will be more than capable to deal with that. Especially combined with other surface and air assets it has.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:56 am

    I do know about the Germans having serious issues in their Armed Forces, but I wasn't aware that Sweden is also struggling Smile
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    Post  ALAMO Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:08 am

    They had some issues when Kockum Shipyard was bought by ThyssenKrupp, and that made some backfalls to the A26.
    Being unable to close a deal with Germans, the Swedish gov forced the Saab to buy the Kockums back. This put some serious organizational delay, as Saab was actually not sure what to do with the newly purchased asset.
    Now Swedes pretend A26 to be a modular project and are advertising it actively all around, with both smaller and much bigger versions possible. But with the Collins disaster, France and Germany doing just same, not sure if they will find any serious buyer ...
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    Post  hoom Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:27 am

    I think they're probably better off just scrapping Alrosa & ordering an extra new 636.3 for Baltic.
    Shame they seem to be giving up on the 677s being a major element cry
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:37 am

    hoom wrote:I think they're probably better off just scrapping Alrosa & ordering an extra new 636.3 for Baltic.

    It barely has any mileage on it and it was just sent to overhaul

    Why waste it?

    It will be quicker than building a new one



    hoom wrote:Shame they seem to be giving up on the 677s being a major element cry

    How come?
    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:59 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:I think they're probably better off just scrapping Alrosa & ordering an extra new 636.3 for Baltic.

    It barely has any mileage on it and it was just sent to overhaul

    Why waste it?  

    It will be quicker than building a new one



    hoom wrote:Shame they seem to be giving up on the 677s being a major element cry

    How come?


    I doubt very much that the Alrosa will be repaired. It has been with the shipyard since 2013 and it appears that the repair was canceled because it is no longer needed.

    In fact now on the Baltic already there are two 636.3 submarines in operation, the B-274 Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky since 2019 and the B-603 Volkhov since 2020.

    So, of course, this summer these two submarines will make the transition between fleets to the Pacific, but then the B-602 Magadan will enter service in the Baltic, already sailing in tests and will probably be two years in the Baltic, along with the next one. to enter in 2022, the B-588 Ufa.

    Then in 2023, these two submarines will also make the transition, then the next, the 5th will enter in service, and in 2024 the 6th.

    In 2025, finally, "Mozhays" and "Izhyesk" will make the transition just in the moment that "Petrozavodsk" , the first 636.3 contracted for the Baltic Fleet , is ready

    In this way, just delaying the transition of each submarine, you have available 636.3 submarines in the Baltic since 2019 without having to waste money on repairing obsolete junk.



    On the other hand, there are two Kilos 877 of the Pacific that are already out of service, or in reserve: B-345 Mogocha and B-190 Krasnokamensk (the two most modern, from 1992 and 1994)
    These may be destined for Kamchatka once the 636.3 arrive in Vladivostok

    Here if it makes more sense to use Soviet kilos, since the 677 Lada will still take a long time to arrive, they will first go to the Northern Fleet, so it will take even a little while to reach Kamchatka.

    It is possible that the squad of Soviet Kilos from Vladivostok, or at least part of it, will move to Kamchatka and new crews will be formed for the new squad of conventional submarines that will protect the fleet base in Kamchatka.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:48 am

    I think the Alrosa might be used as a training submarine in the Baltic?
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    Post  hoom Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:55 am

    It will be quicker than building a new one
    As pointed out its been in repair for 8yrs and as of last photos looked no further on than the last several years.
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:20 pm

    hoom wrote:I think they're probably better off just scrapping Alrosa & ordering an extra new 636.3 for Baltic.
    Shame they seem to be giving up on the 677s being a major element cry

    I wouldn't be so quick to judge

    The 677's have been slated for the Pacific Fleet, not the Baltic one
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    Post  AMCXXL Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:20 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    hoom wrote:I think they're probably better off just scrapping Alrosa & ordering an extra new 636.3 for Baltic.
    Shame they seem to be giving up on the 677s being a major element cry

    I wouldn't be so quick to judge

    The 677's have been slated for the Pacific Fleet, not the Baltic one

    The 636.3 are programmed for the naval brigades in the closed seas: Black Sea, (6) Sea of Japan (6) and Baltic Sea (probably only 3 or 4). In total 15 or 16

    The 677s are intended to support deployment to open waters, of the SSBNs and will be based in Murmansk and Kamchatka. In each brigade will be 5 or 6 submarines pr. 677, total 10-12

    If there are those 3 or 4 submarines in the Baltic, it is more than enough to use some to train new submarine crews.
    Nor do I rule out that in the future, the first 677, which is a few years old, will eventually be left as a test ship in Leningrad, which is what the Dimitrov does now.


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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:53 pm

    AMCXXL wrote:I doubt very much that the Alrosa will be repaired. It has been with the shipyard since 2013 and it appears that the repair was canceled because it is no longer needed....

    It's been parked in the Black Sea all that time

    It was just recently moved to Baltic
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:42 pm

    On a fun-note the Alrosa was effectively hijacked by proto-Ukronazis as far back as 1992. Some idiots on board declared the vessel Ukrainian, while Russian officers on board attempted to wrest back control of it.

    Anyway, all back in Russian hands now, just like the Crimean peninsula. Rolling back the Ukronazis one bunch of idiots at a time

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    Post  hoom Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:13 pm

    It was just recently moved to Baltic
    They announced they'd move it to the Baltic once repairs complete, I've seen no indications that its left its berth in Sevastopol.

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    Post  Isos Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:00 pm

    Sell it to a poor country like Venezuela or Argentina (that would piss off UK) for low price.
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    Post  AMCXXL Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:40 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AMCXXL wrote:I doubt very much that the Alrosa will be repaired. It has been with the shipyard since 2013 and it appears that the repair was canceled because it is no longer needed....

    It's been parked in the Black Sea all that time

    It was just recently moved to Baltic


    The submarine has been in the Sevastopol Shipyard since 2013
    The repairs you need, basically the fairing, take only several months. The repairs were simply not carried out and were abandoned 5 or 6 years ago

    The submarine was allegedly "transferred" to the Baltic Fleet, but did not make the trip to Baltic.
    That is, his administrative assignment was changed.

    The story of the ship:
    http://deepstorm.ru/DeepStorm.files/45-92/dts/877/B-871/B-871.htm

    In the last Google maps update Alrosa continues in the floating dock. The photo is of 2015
    https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6139727,33.5717741,60m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=es

    Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK - Page 24 Alrosa10

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    Post  Mir Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:39 pm

    @RTN
    To get back to the Kilos:

    The Russian made Kilo submarine has earned the “black hole” nickname from the US Navy since its so difficult to detect. Even the export one's.

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    Post  RTN Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:23 am

    Isos wrote:And you are quite wrong about the kilo being exported. The first improved kilos were made for export. It's just after seeing how good they were that russia ordereds some. First to order them was China back in the 90s and it was the project 636. Then Algeria and Vietnam ordered some too.

    Russia ordered its own just in the 2010s. And yes it was improved even more called project 636.3. But the export version being made first it wasn't a downgraded version but an improved version of old kilo.
    Look maybe the Kilo was a good conventional sub as was the German Type 214. But the thing with conventional submarines is that they are way past their use by date. Nuclear submarines and Extra Large UUVs (XLUUVs) are the future.

    We are already developing XLUUVs like the ORCA that can be loaded on a heavy lift aircraft and can be dropped thousands of miles away within an hour or two.

    https://www.naval-technology.com/features/boeing-orca-xluuv-unmanned-submarine/

    These XLUUVs will now be armed with a few torpedoes maybe even a few anti ship missiles.

    Can you even imagine this kind of flexibility.

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