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    Su-35S: News

    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL on Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:39 pm

    Isos wrote:

    dunno I'm not an expert in economy. But I wouldn't be surprised if sukhoi sell them in dollars to have dollars in its bank accounts. Russian gov has a lot of dollars in stock and it's still a stable currency. Then MoD would bebefit from the exchange rate.

    Well, first of all , Sukhoi is a design office, the planes are manufactured and sold by the OAK Holding companies (KnAAZ, IAZ, NAZ, etc.)

    Secondly, within Russia the ruble is used (Russia is not a Banana Republic as Guatemala or Paraguay), the salaries of employees are paid in rubles, components, materials, supplies are paid in rubles

    Third, the Russian government pays for airplanes and other weapons in rubles, among other things because it has a Central Bank that makes rubles with which the government can pay for anything within Russia.

    However, the Algerians, Egyptians, etc ... yes, they pay in dollars (it is the international trade currency since Breton Woods), which serve the Russian state to be able to pay outside Russia or to obtain reserves, and to the russian companies to be able to buy outside Russia those materials and components that they cannot find inside Russia

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    Post  Isos on Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:43 pm

    I was just suggesting that paying in dollars has its advantages. I'm not saying they will pay everything in dollars.
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    Post  marcellogo on Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:06 pm

    AMCXXL wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    With those amounts ordered, the Su-27 could be finally removed from service, but I don't know if this is the plan, since they want to reopen air bases.

    The soviet Su-27 will be removed form service in next years
    Only rest the Belbek regiment to replace in the VKS and probably a couple of squadrons to complete Vladivostok and Khotilivo

    This are the Flanker regiments in VKS

    East MD:
    -Dzemgi: 2 squadrons Su-35
    -Ts.Uglovaya: 1 squadron Su-35  (second squadron probably this year. The MiG-31´s seems already start work at Chuguyevka)

    West MD:
    -Besovets: 2 squadrons Su-35
    -Khotilovo: 1 squadron Su-35 (second squadron probably for 2025. Then Su-35 will be relocated to other place of West MD, MiG-31 will stay at Khotilovo)

    South MD:
    -Belbek: 2 squadrons Su-27P/SM (raised in 2015, to replace with Su-35 probably in 2022-2024)
    -Krymsk: 2 squadrons Su-27SM3 (to replace later)

    New regiments will be opened , but armed with Su-57 one each East, West and South MD
    Is very probably Su-57 will be based first at Dzemgi, then Su-35 will be relocated very probably at Sakhalin
    Also Su-57 could be based at Krymsk and Su-27SM3 could be moved to Rostov area or well to North Fleet


    After VKS will be Navy the next to replace Flankers:
    -Baltic Flleet: Kaliningrad: 2 squadrons Su-27P (raised in 2019 , to replace with Su-35 probably in 2026-2027)
    -North Fleet probably receives also Flankers in long term, for the moment uses Su-33 both for air defense and for crew on Kuznestov


    SM are newly built or modernized ones?
    Given that such version is from 2004 I can't get why a part of them have been put recently in reserve while the apparently older -P are still in service, even in VKS.
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    Post  AMCXXL on Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:49 am

    marcellogo wrote:


    SM are newly built or modernized ones?
    Given that such version is from 2004 I can't get why a part of them have been put recently in reserve while the apparently older -P are still in service, even in VKS.

    The Su-27SMs were modernized between 2005 and 2009.
    Most SU-27SM were Su-27S from the years 88 and 89 and suffered great wear and tear from flying hours.
    Su-27P remains in service are mostly of early 90´s and in some case still have quite a few hours of flight ahead

    The two squadrons Su-27SM transfered to Besovets and Khotilovo have been replaced with Su-35
    Perhaps a few could be handover to the Navy, but generally, when Belbek Su-27SM are replaced by Su-35s, VKS service will be over

    In fact, Su-27SM is not need in the RuAF or Navy, since there are several regiments of new Su-30SM , that do the same role but much better
    Su-27P has the same performance for air superiority than Su-27SM, that is the main role of Su-27 in the RuAF
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    Post  marcellogo on Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:23 am

    AMCXXL wrote:
    marcellogo wrote:


    SM are newly built or modernized ones?
    Given that such version is from 2004 I can't get why a part of them have been put recently in reserve while the apparently older -P are still in service, even in VKS.

    The Su-27SMs were modernized between 2005 and 2009.
    Most SU-27SM were Su-27S from the years 88 and 89 and suffered great wear and tear from flying hours.
    Su-27P remains in service are mostly of early 90´s and in some case still have quite a few hours of flight ahead

    The two squadrons Su-27SM transfered to Besovets and Khotilovo have been replaced with Su-35
    Perhaps a few could be handover to the Navy, but generally, when Belbek Su-27SM are replaced by Su-35s, VKS service will be over

    In fact, Su-27SM is not need in the RuAF or Navy, since there are several regiments of new Su-30SM , that do the same role but much better
    Su-27P has the same performance for air superiority than Su-27SM, that is the main role of Su-27 in the RuAF

    I though that the -P were os the same standard of the early -S, not -SM, so , sorry to bother you again, when such update has been done?
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:38 am

    And in Addition there should be also some newly built su27SM3 (built in Konsomolsk on Amur before they switched on producing su35)
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:01 am

    AMCXXL wrote:The soviet Su-27 will be removed form service in next years
    Only rest the Belbek regiment to replace in the VKS and probably a couple of squadrons to complete Vladivostok and Khotilivo

    Does it make sense to you the 48 Su-35S units that were claimed to be on order? The price seemed low, maybe it is 36 units for three squadrons, two in Belbek and one more for Khotilovo? The pictures that we got to see at the MoD visit to KnAAZ were not very clear to know how many units would be delivered in the coming years. But they already said they were moving towards bigger contracts to improve pricing.

    East MD:
    -Dzemgi: 2 squadrons Su-35
    -Ts.Uglovaya: 1 squadron Su-35  (second squadron probably this year. The MiG-31´s seems already start work at Chuguyevka)

    So the Sukhois will remain there as the 22nd IAP and the MiGs will form a new regiment at Chuguyevka?

    West MD:
    -Besovets: 2 squadrons Su-35
    -Khotilovo: 1 squadron Su-35 (second squadron probably for 2025. Then Su-35 will be relocated to other place of West MD, MiG-31 will stay at Khotilovo)

    Maybe the 611th IAP at Dorokhovo will be reopen? The Sukhois at Khotilovo came from there right?

    New regiments will be opened , but armed with Su-57 one each East, West and South MD
    Is very probably Su-57 will be based first at Dzemgi, then Su-35 will be relocated very probably at Sakhalin
    Also Su-57 could be based at Krymsk and Su-27SM3 could be moved to Rostov area or well to North Fleet

    Any idea where they will be stationed, in the Western MD?

    In any case, it does seem that the numbers of fighter squadrons / operational air bases are indeed increasing, beyond the substitution of older airframes, isn't it?

    After VKS will be Navy the next to replace Flankers:
    -Baltic Flleet: Kaliningrad: 2 squadrons Su-27P (raised in 2019 , to replace with Su-35 probably in 2026-2027)
    -North Fleet probably receives also Flankers in long term, for the moment uses Su-33 both for air defense and for crew on Kuznestov

    They were expected to create complete air groups for the different fleets, that may cause them to keep buying Flankers for a good while...
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    Post  AMCXXL on Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:50 am

    marcellogo wrote:

    I though that the -P were os the same standard of the early -S, not -SM, so , sorry to bother you again, when such update has been done?

    Su-27S is a interceptpr witha little land attack capability
    Su-27P was the same stripped of any land attack capability because the FACE treaty, becaue Soviet Union already has a lot of airplanes with lamd attack capability, included MiG-27, Su-17, Su-24...
    Su-27SM is modernization , basically increasing land attack capability, being a little "multirole"

    For air defense, its basic function, three versions are very similar
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    Post  AMCXXL on Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:47 am

    Does it make sense to you the 48 Su-35S units that were claimed to be on order? The price seemed low, maybe it is 36 units for three squadrons, two in Belbek  and one more for Khotilovo? The pictures that we got to see at the MoD visit to KnAAZ were not very clear to know how many units would be delivered in the coming years. But they already said they were moving towards bigger contracts to improve pricing.

    There are 6 Su-35 remainng of the current contract

    Also, in the screen of KnAAZ you can see "new contract" with 3 for 2021 and 3 for 2022.
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    This could be an intermediate contract, probably signed a year or more ago to complete another squadron, being intermediate between contract for 50 of 2016 and the new one of 70 billion rubles that will be signed before the year ends.
    This is nothing new, in the case of Yak-130 , have been received aditional machines this year, before the new contract for 25 , probably under other aditional intermediate contract
    In the case of Mi-28N or Mi-35M , also small ammounts of machines habe been delivered under aditional small contracts

    About the contract of 70 billion rubles, probably is for not more of 30, for Belbek and other places as Lipetsk , or for complete 23 IAP that send airplanes to Akhtubinsk and Zhukovsky

    The second squadorn of Khotilovo will be later, probablly togheter with the order for Kaliningrad


    So the Sukhois will remain there as the 22nd IAP and the MiGs will form a new regiment at Chuguyevka?

    Yes, in the net was said MiG-31 is already working in Chuguyevka.
    Tsentralnaya will be its repair facility and the HQ of a new division


    Maybe the 611th IAP at Dorokhovo will be reopen? The Sukhois at Khotilovo came from there right?


    Any idea where they will be stationed, in the Western MD?


    Maybe or maybe not.
    Is very probably the Su-35 will go near the west border, for example to Andreapol , near Latvia and Belarus borders, that is also empty since 2009 (ex-28º IAP)

    Dorokhovo airfield , in Bezhetsk, could be the homebase for the Su-57 regiment of West MD.

    Also Lodeynoye Pole, (ex-177 IAP) or Siversky (old base of Su-24), both in Leningrad region, could be other possible locations for Su-57 in the West MD

    In any case, it does seem that the numbers of fighter squadrons / operational air bases are indeed increasing, beyond the substitution of older airframes, isn't it?

    Yes, in my opinion at the end will go 10 to 12 air defence figter regiments (from 7 Su-35 + 3 Su-57, up to 8+4)
    This is a similar number that the number of regiments of Su-27 that Russia got from Soviet Union

    10 years ago only remain 4 regiments and other 2 squadrons, in total only 14 squadrons of Su-27

    They were expected to create complete air groups for the different fleets, that may cause them to keep buying Flankers for a good while...
    [/quote]

    Yes, the aviation of the Navy goes for long, it was dismantled more than 10 years ago and creating new regiments from zero takes 7 or 8 years. The Su-35 will continue to be bought until 2030 or something more

    The reasonable thing is to first open a regiment with Su-27, like Kaliningrad and after 6 or 7 years, replace them with Su-35.
    Is very probable that the North MD receive first Su-27SM now in reserve, or perhaps Su-27SM3, once the VKS regiment have received Su-35


    Last edited by AMCXXL on Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:29 am

    Su-27S is a interceptpr witha little land attack capability
    Su-27P was the same stripped of any land attack capability because the FACE treaty,

    S means multirole... like the MiG-29S (MiG-29C), P means interceptor... traditionally the Frontal Aviation units were used as swing fighters... they start with AA weapons and then as the enemy air power is taken down they start to carry unguided air to ground weapons like dumb bombs and rockets to attack ground targets of opportunity. The aircraft of the PVO were not used against ground targets... their job was air defence and only carried AA weapons so they were designated interceptors... but with basic bombing an rocket carrying capacity... nothing as sophisticated as the Gefest & T upgrades...

    But I wouldn't be surprised if sukhoi sell them in dollars to have dollars in its bank accounts. Russian gov has a lot of dollars in stock and it's still a stable currency. Then MoD would bebefit from the exchange rate.

    The Russian government would not squander US dollars on arms purchases... the complications of calculating the price are simply not worth it.

    US dollars would be used to buy foreign components and products for import, but as sanctions pretty much block all of that sort of stuff I doubt they even need to now... and if they did it is more likely they would deal in Euros instead of Dollars.

    However, the Algerians, Egyptians, etc ... yes, they pay in dollars (it is the international trade currency since Breton Woods), which serve the Russian state to be able to pay outside Russia or to obtain reserves, and to the russian companies to be able to buy outside Russia those materials and components that they cannot find inside Russia

    With sanctions Russia probably has very little use for US dollars, I would expect most export sales would be in Euros or Chinese or local currency depending on the agreements made. For instance a sale to India that stipulates 30% of the value of the sale needs to be bought back in Russian purchases of Indian products then selling in Rupees makes sense because you always lose money on currency conversions, because money is charged for the service...

    All the materials and systems in an Su-35 will be Russian and paid for in rubles... the conversion to dollars is only so westerners can appreciate how cheap they are compared with the shit planes that are forced on western military forces...
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:10 am

    A wonderful sight of Su-35 launch R-37.


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    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:47 pm

    They said when they were making it that although it was expected by most to be carried by the MiG-31 and any replacement interceptor, that it was actually the new long range AAM intended for use on the then MFI, the Su-35 (Su-27M), the MiG-29M (MiG-35 family), and the Yak-141... which gives you an idea of when this claim was made.

    The Su-57 and the Su-35S and MiG-35 will likely all carry this sort of weapon because it was originally intended for use against big targets like troop transports, inflight refuelling aircraft, AWACS platforms, and JSTARS type aircraft as well as bombers and strike aircraft.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:49 pm

    That's a good missile even against fighters. Too bad they didn't keep the mig-25. It could have been upgraded with an irbis radar and used to fire this missile at every target it could detect.

    The more you fire the more hit you get and the better it is.
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    Post  Hole on Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:22 pm

    Most MiG-25´s would be around 50 years old by now.

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    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:38 pm

    Who cares they would be still good for sniper shooting with r-37M.
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    Post  George1 on Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:16 am

    As part of the Russian Aerospace Forces, the R-37M rocket is presumably entering service with the MiG-31BM fighters (using the AKU-410-1, the aircraft can carry up to six missiles) and is now working out its integration into the Su-35S fighter armament (with using the AKU-620, the aircraft can carry up to four missiles - two under the fuselage and one under the wings). Also, apparently, this missile should be included in the armament of the Su-57 fighter. The Su-35S fighter with the R-37M rocket mock-up suspended from the AKU-620 was demonstrated at the MAKS-2019 air show.

    Su-35S: News - Page 35 84288810
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    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4155666.html
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:11 am

    With the R-33 I would say probably not because the SARH gives too much warning and like the Phoenix it is optimised to hit large and not very manouverable aircraft like bombers or their missiles which are fast but don't manouver much for most of their flight.

    With a range of 120km and target limits of 4g it is not any better than the much lighter R-77-1.

    The R-37M however can engage 8g targets and has much better range...

    It would certainly be interesting for long range shots from relatively safe distances...

    That's a good missile even against fighters. Too bad they didn't keep the mig-25. It could have been upgraded with an irbis radar and used to fire this missile at every target it could detect.

    I suspect with the upgraded to Su-35 level Su-30s and the actual Su-35s and Su-57 and of course the MiG-31s and MiG-35s there will be no shortage of aircraft able to carry the missile... would be interesting the size of radar antenna they could fit to a Tu-22M3M... or perhaps even Tu-22M4P perhaps with a belly covered in the conformal launch positions as used on the MiG-31M... not to mention the internal weapon bay...
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:26 am

    They are also working on a new long range missile called Izd 810 that is supposed to have a flight range of between 1.6 and 9 times better than the R-37M depending on the launch conditions, and it also has a new active/passive radar homing sensor and can hit targets at up to 40km altitude.

    It was designed from the outset to be carried internally on the Su-57, and has a two stage rocket motor that can be delayed to extend flight range... like the R-77M.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:They are also working on a new long range missile called Izd 810 that is supposed to have a flight range of between 1.6 and 9 times better than the R-37M depending on the launch conditions, and it also has a new active/passive radar homing sensor and can hit targets at up to 40km altitude.

    It was designed from the outset to be carried internally on the Su-57, and has a two stage rocket motor that can be delayed to extend flight range... like the R-77M.

    Where did you hear that?
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:24 am

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    Post  AMCXXL on Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Su-27S is a interceptpr witha little land attack capability
    Su-27P was the same stripped of any land attack capability because the FACE treaty,

    S means multirole... like the MiG-29S (MiG-29C), P means interceptor... traditionally the Frontal Aviation units were used as swing fighters... they start with AA weapons and then  as the enemy air power is taken down they start to carry unguided air to ground weapons like dumb bombs and rockets to attack ground targets of opportunity. The aircraft of the PVO were not used against ground targets... their job was air defence and only carried AA weapons so they were designated interceptors... but with basic bombing an rocket carrying capacity... nothing as sophisticated as the Gefest & T upgrades...
    .

    This is not true. Su-27 is a interceptor of Soviet Sily-PVO
    The mision of Su-27 and its successors is the air dominance, is for that the high perfomance: speed, power, climb rate, ceiling. etc...
    In 1980 , the spureous word "multirole" does no exist, and less in the USSR

    Factory Designations
    T-10 = prototypes
    T-10C (latin:T-10S) = Serial production
    T-10У (latin T-10U) = T-10 for instruction (учения=teaching)
    T-10M = Modificated project T-10 , tradename : Su-35

    Tradenames T-10C (izd.110)
    - Су-27 (latin Su-27) received 1985-1989 (about 400)
    - Су-27П (latin Su-27P) Su-27 stripped of any minimum attack capacity to bypass the FACE treaty, the
    differences are minimal, perhaps one more sensor on the wings, received 1989-1991 (only about 120, by that time most of PVO regiments has Su-27).
    In fact several Su-27 were "downgraded" to Su-27P to reduce the number of any ground attack capability according the FACE treaty. However, this stopped happening when it was meaningless when the USSR disappeared
    - Су-27CM (latin Su-27SM) modernization of serial Su-27 (both Su-27 and Su-27P that are basically the same thing) including a certain attack capability as in 2000´s Russia has lack of frontal warplanes and lack of funds to buy Su-30´s

    Mikoyan-Gurevich has a differemt nomenclature:

    Factory designations
    9-12
    9-12A
    9-12B
    9-13
    has a tradename MiG-29, MiG-29A , MiG-29B
    9-51 has tradename MiG-29UB

    9-13C (latin 9-13S) is the first "fullback" version with larger fuel tank for increase range, Less than 20 were received by 1992 , just after USSR end. Cannot remember what "S" exactly means here

    9-15 = MiG-29M , modificated project , tradename MiG-33
    9-17, 9-18 and 9-19 have tradename MiG 29SMT a modernized version of 9-13S

    9-31 and 9-41 has tradename MiG-29K
    9-47 = MiG-29KUB
    etc....

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:46 am

    In 1980 , the spureous word "multirole" does no exist, and less in the USSR

    MiG-29C wasn't in service in 1980.

    And what is this FACE treaty?

    Are you talking about the CFE treaty?

    That wasn't ratified till 1991.

    Thanks for the list of factory names and design bureau sales designations, but I am talking about the service names given by the forces that operated them.

    9-13C (latin 9-13S) is the first "fullback" version with larger fuel tank for increase range, Less than 20 were received by 1992 , just after USSR end. Cannot remember what "S" exactly means here

    It was the SM models that had some ground attack capability (ie precision rather than just dumb bomb and unguided rocket).

    In fact several Su-27 were "downgraded" to Su-27P to reduce the number of any ground attack capability according the FACE treaty. However, this stopped happening when it was meaningless when the USSR disappeared

    The Su-27 had no ground attack capacity except dumb bombs and unguided rockets and cannon... there was nothing to down grade in the early 1990s... and it wasn't till the 2000s that either MiG or Sukhoi could put in service anything that could be described as having any air to ground capacity beyond what a MiG-15 could manage and by then all the Su-17s and MiG-27s had been withdrawn from service so there should have been no problems at all...

    9-15 = MiG-29M , modificated project , tradename MiG-33
    9-17, 9-18 and 9-19 have tradename MiG 29SMT a modernized version of 9-13S

    9-31 and 9-41 has tradename MiG-29K
    9-47 = MiG-29KUB

    Well that is wrong too... the MiG-29K is the proposed MiG-33 naval model but it was rejected in favour of the Su-33.

    The MiG-29M was never called MiG-33 because it never entered service.

    MiG-29 or MiG-29M or MiG-33 are not decided by MiG, they are suggestions... the designation the Russian or Soviet military is what they are called and the design bureaus have little say... but then the west has their own designation system that they make up themselves which is different as well.


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