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    Su-35S: News

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:42 pm

    limb wrote:
    lyle6 wrote:The Russians are not the ones copying the Chinese. Simple as.

    The chinese only copied the AL-41. Chinese semiconductor tech is still far superior due to multidecades western investment and technology transfer.

    How do we know the byelka isnt BS?NIIP lied about it having GaN modules ready, but afaik the byelka in the only Su-57 still uses GAs.

    After all phazotron lied for a decade that they had an AESA ready with their zhuk yet it turns out its barely ready hot garbage?


    Ofc all theories about AESA performance of other countries is irrelevant since everything is classified. For example there is 0 evidence that western TR modules have high failure rate outside of wishful thinking and speculation, just how the west wishfully thinks Russian Lband is just for IFF.

    What?

    First off, you nor I do not know what N036 has if its GaAS or GaN modules.  So no, they didn't lie.  GaN modules are used on the radar systems used on Russian ships since 2016.

    Zhuk-A was actually ready and the TR modules were made long ago.  I posted about this.  Don't fucking lie.  Istok is the company that makes the modules.

    Chinese semiconductors are cheap knockoffs too.  Shall we mention how they copied AMD Ryzen 1 generation of CPU's?

    Only copied engines? Are you fucking high? What do you think their jets are based off of? J-10 is a rip off of the Lavi jet which was a F-16 Israeli style.
    J-11 and 15 are rip offs of Su-27's.

    J-20 is a ripoff of a MiG-1.42 "stealthized".  What about their MBT's?  Dont recall how China ripped off Ukraine for crying out loud?

    Wanna buy a Russian GaN module?  Here:

    https://eandc.ru/catalog/?SECTION_ID=104&ELEMENT_ID=28427

    My post on it back in 2019:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t5789p150-russian-pesa-and-aesa-radars#264836

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    Finty
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    Su-35S: News - Page 40 Empty Egyptian Air Force starts to receive Su-35 fighters

    Post  Finty Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:29 pm

    @mike Calm down little man. Seems like you’ve always been angry, just don't get so upset by articles you don't agree with! Also I’m not sure why you’re calling the forum shit when it isn’t and you seem to like contributing to it.

    Anyway, I digress.

    https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/50719

    Egyptian Air Force starts to receive Su-35 fighters

    By Dmitry Terekhov from Odintsovo

    The Egyptian Air Force has taken delivery of all the MiG-29 fighters it ordered from Russia, and started to receive its first Russian Sukhoi Su-35 fighters. Russian magazine New Defence, quoting industry sources in Russia, reported that five Su-35s were delivered to Egypt, and that satellite imagery shows 12 Su-35s outside the Gagarin Aircraft Plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, ready to be delivered to the Egyptian Air Force.

    Sweden's Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) reported that Egypt ordered 24 Su-35s that will be delivered by 2023. The Su-35 is an evolution of the Sukhoi Su-27 equipped with new avionics, including the Irbis radar with a range of 400km, and a more powerful engine. The new fighters will supplement Egypt's MiG-29M/M2 fighters as well as replace older fighters.  

    Egypt also received 300 R-73 and 300 R-77 beyond visual range air-to-air missiles for its MiG-29 fighters


    Last edited by Finty on Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:00 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:46 pm

    Feedbacks about chinese systems in general are not good. Most countries that bought their drones are trying to sell them back and buy US drones. Report from SAA they are not happy with chinese radars that aren't working as advised....

    They have lot to prove and are still far behind russian or western technology.

    Those who write articles have access only to chinese official statement that will never say anything bad about their stuff.

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    franco
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    Post  franco Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:05 pm

    Finty wrote:@mike Calm down little man. Seems like you’ve always been angry, just don't get so upset by articles you don't agree with! Also I’m not sure why you’re calling the forum shit when it isn’t and you seem to like contributing to it.

    Anyway, I digress.

    https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/50719

    Egyptian Air Force starts to receive Su-35 fighters

    By Dmitry Terekhov from Odintsovo

    The Egyptian Air Force has taken delivery of all the MiG-29 fighters it ordered from Russia, and started to receive its first Russian Sukhoi Su-35 fighters. Russian magazine New Defence, quoting industry sources in Russia, reported that five Su-35s were delivered to Egypt, and that satellite imagery shows 12 Su-35s outside the Gagarin Aircraft Plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, ready to be delivered to the Egyptian Air Force.

    Sweden's Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) reported that Egypt ordered 24 Su-35s that will be delivered by 2023. The Su-35 is an evolution of the Sukhoi Su-27 equipped with new avionics, including the Irbis radar with a range of 400km, and a more powerful engine. The new fighters will supplement Egypt's MiG-29M/M2 fighters as well as replace older fighters.  

    Egypt also received 300 R-73 and 300 R-77 beyond visual range air-to-air missiles for its MiG-29 fighters

    Appreciate the edit thumbsup

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    limb

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    Post  limb Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:10 pm

    Zhuk-A was actually ready and the TR modules were made long ago.  I posted about this.  Don't fucking lie.  Istok is the company that makes the modules.

    If thats true then the MiG-35 wouldve had it installed long ago, but no, until the late 2010s it just had a shitty 80km range mechanically scanned pulse doppler radar, and thats one of the main reasons why there was almost zero customer interest in it.

    Also the zhuk AESA has pathetic range for a radar its size. In all metrics, its a garbage AESA and does more to proove russians are lacking technologically in AESAs. Ofc whatever gap there was, it has been bridged by the byelka, but the MiG-35 is in the dustbin of history because of phazotron's technological backwardness.

    J-20 is a ripoff of a MiG-1.42 "stealthized".  What about their MBT's?  Dont recall how China ripped off Ukraine for crying out loud?
    We dont know anything abot the 1.42 other that it exists, so this is a baseless claim.

    Su-35S: News - Page 40 Tumblr10

    The lavi has completely different wings, intakes, dimensions, hardpoints, tail section. By that logic gripen is a copy of  rafale.

    The chicoms get their asses kissed by western defense rags. I don't understand why and I don't like it. I feel that the western nations in their hubris sold out to China, thinking they could keep a reign on the chicoms and that somehow they didn't have greater ambitions. That or some were just outright treacherous.

    Militarywatchmagazine is actually quite balanced, but with a slight prochinese tint. It doesnt shit on russian hardware,  manditorily saying western tech is superior like all western outlets.

    Western publications only hype up chinese tech when the chinese are using western military design decisions, such as DSIs, S ducts and AESA in order to prove western superiority(If our enemy is copying us, then we are superior to russians). Western media. reddit and 4chan selectively and contradictingly dismiss russian and chinese hardware.  When they want to imply chinese racial inferiority they slightly hype up russian tech, when they wanna claim russian backwardness or poverty, they hype up chinese tech just a bit.


    Last edited by limb on Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    limb

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    Post  limb Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:14 pm

    Isos wrote:Feedbacks about chinese systems in general are not good. Most countries that bought their drones are trying to sell them back and buy US drones. Report from SAA they are not happy with chinese radars that aren't working as advised....

    They have lot to prove and are still far behind russian or western technology.

    Those who write articles have access only to chinese official statement that will never say anything bad about their stuff.

    Your line of argument is similar to the one that claims that the F135 engine, carrier operations and composite turbofan blades are so difficult to achieve, so its impossible for russians to achieve them.
    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:19 pm

    limb wrote:
    Zhuk-A was actually ready and the TR modules were made long ago.  I posted about this.  Don't fucking lie.  Istok is the company that makes the modules.

    If thats true then the MiG-35 wouldve had it installed long ago, but no, until the late 2010s it just had a shitty 80km range mechanically scanned pulse doppler radar, and thats one of the main reasons why there was almost zero customer interest in it.

    Also the zhuk AESA has pathetic range for a radar its size. In all metrics, its a garbage AESA and does more to proove russians are lacking technologically in AESAs. Ofc whatever gap there was, it has been bridged by the byelka, but the MiG-35 is in the dustbin of history because of phazotron's technological backwardness.

    J-20 is a ripoff of a MiG-1.42 "stealthized".  What about their MBT's?  Dont recall how China ripped off Ukraine for crying out loud?
    We dont know anything abot the 1.42 other that it exists, so this is a baseless claim.

    Su-35S: News - Page 40 Tumblr10

    The lavi has completely different wings, intakes, dimensions, hardpoints, tail section. By that logic gripen is a copy of  rafale.

    The chicoms get their asses kissed by western defense rags. I don't understand why and I don't like it. I feel that the western nations in their hubris sold out to China, thinking they could keep a reign on the chicoms and that somehow they didn't have greater ambitions. That or some were just outright treacherous.

    Militarywatchmagazine is actually quite balanced, but with a slight prochinese tint. It doesnt shit on russian hardware,  manditorily saying western tech is superior like all western outlets.

    Western publications only hype up chinese tech when the chinese are using western military design decisions, such as DSIs, S ducts and AESA in order to prove western superiority(If our enemy is copying us, then we are superior to russians). Western media. reddit and 4chan selectively and contradictingly dismiss russian and chinese hardware.  When they want to imply chinese racial inferiority they slightly hype up russian tech, when they wanna claim russian backwardness or poverty, they hype up chinese tech just a bit.

    Agree about the j-10, and the j-20 is a beautiful bird. That said though the zhuk a has the same claimed characteristics as the Chinese claim for the klj-7a radar. It is not crappy, just a first gen area with low to moderate number of active emitters.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:27 pm

    limb wrote:
    Isos wrote:Feedbacks about chinese systems in general are not good. Most countries that bought their drones are trying to sell them back and buy US drones. Report from SAA they are not happy with chinese radars that aren't working as advised....

    They have lot to prove and are still far behind russian or western technology.

    Those who write articles have access only to chinese official statement that will never say anything bad about their stuff.

    Your line of argument is similar to the one that claims that the F135 engine, carrier operations and composite turbofan blades are so difficult to achieve, so its impossible for russians to achieve them.

    What are you talking ? I have no arguments in my post. It's just facts.

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    Gomig-21
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    Post  Gomig-21 Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:53 am

    Finty wrote:@mike Calm down little man. Seems like you’ve always been angry, just don't get so upset by articles you don't agree with! Also I’m not sure why you’re calling the forum shit when it isn’t and you seem to like contributing to it.

    Anyway, I digress.

    https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/50719

    Egyptian Air Force starts to receive Su-35 fighters

    By Dmitry Terekhov from Odintsovo

    The Egyptian Air Force has taken delivery of all the MiG-29 fighters it ordered from Russia, and started to receive its first Russian Sukhoi Su-35 fighters. Russian magazine New Defence, quoting industry sources in Russia, reported that five Su-35s were delivered to Egypt, and that satellite imagery shows 12 Su-35s outside the Gagarin Aircraft Plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, ready to be delivered to the Egyptian Air Force.

    Sweden's Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) reported that Egypt ordered 24 Su-35s that will be delivered by 2023. The Su-35 is an evolution of the Sukhoi Su-27 equipped with new avionics, including the Irbis radar with a range of 400km, and a more powerful engine. The new fighters will supplement Egypt's MiG-29M/M2 fighters as well as replace older fighters.  

    Egypt also received 300 R-73 and 300 R-77 beyond visual range air-to-air missiles for its MiG-29 fighters

    Really looking forward to seeing these in the EAF. The order might be closer to 30 aircraft from all the sources that we've seen, including from Sukhoi themselves.

    Having the impressive range without the need for wet tanks, the ERBIS-E and its impressive 400 km range radar as well as the leading wing edge AESA L-band radar AND IRST makes this thing about as lethal as can be. Just super curious to see what other munitions they ordered besides the standard A2A missiles in the R-77 and R-73/74.

    It's also a real shame that the US is messing with not only this order when they tried to put the kiabosh on it, but essentially killing any potential future order, or at least putting a damper on it with the threat of CAATSA since this would be the first ever "heavy" air superiority fighter for the EAF and having 24/30 is a good start, but seeing 60 or more would be much, much much more ideal. Especially considering the timeframe for the production of the Su-57 will take a while before any export units are produced for anyone.

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    Finty
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    Post  Finty Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:24 am

    Hard for new members to know what has and has not been posted before to be fair.

    I wouldn’t read too much into the insults as that’s kinda autistic behaviour. Obviously I don’t know if you’re into cuckolding in real life, duh, don’t take them literally.

    Thirdly you can’t deny the gains made by the Chinese and some of the advantages they have. Although I don’t expect another Sino-Soviet split if you will, the Russians should really be keeping an eye on them as they aren’t your best friends and have proven to be crafty with the plagiarism that was the J-11 project.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:47 am

    Finty wrote:Hard for new members to know what has and has not been posted before to be fair.

    I wouldn’t read too much into the insults as that’s kinda autistic behaviour. Obviously I don’t know if you’re into cuckolding in real life, duh, don’t take them literally.

    Thirdly you can’t deny the gains made by the Chinese and some of the advantages they have. Although I don’t expect another Sino-Soviet split if you will, the Russians should really be keeping an eye on them as they aren’t your best friends and have proven to be crafty with the plagiarism that was the J-11 project.

    Meh, banter is banter. But I shouldn't have said you are retarded so I apologize for that. No one here is that, with exception being Vann

    China made gains but the gains are mostly that of advertising. I give them that. I don't trust them but I never did. I don't trust anyone to be honest even on a more personal level besides my family and friends (one has to understand, I grew up during a time a few serial killers were still loose and I came from a city where many kids were kidnapped, raped and or murdered. So we were told to trust no one besides parents).

    One thing I learned over the years is that you can try and try at copying but in the end you don't end up with something better. It's always a game of catch up.  And Isos is correct in that the stuff they purchased from China isn't quite what the Chinese claimed.  The other thing is that their "simulated tests" are to their own. There isn't even knowledge in how they did their test, what perameters and what not.  My experience in dealing with Chinese businesses is that they are less than honest. But to which they are still above the Americans in their business dealings.

    So I take what they say with a grain of salt.  An example is their nuclear power plant they are building in Pakistan but apparently refused to build same model in China.

    Anyway, we can't prove China's claims. Disproving it is mostly based upon what we see and know currently.

    But I can't blame them either. It isn't like they will trash talk what they make, right? It's their products and it would be bad advertising.  And China is pretty good at advertising.  Their progress in semiconductors is impressive and I give them that.  But the issue at hand isn't their semiconductors - it's actually to do with quality output and the cooling system for their equipment.  Biggest issue of AESA modules is actually their cooling for someone as small as a radar for an airborne system.  US still struggles with this hence why they see as low as a 10% failure of TR modules on average, 20% or higher on a lot of cases. Russia faced and still faces same issues.  They made an alternative where each module is a seperate passive cooling that contains 4 TR modules.  But due to that, they can't fit nearly as many TR modules as what a radar system could actually hold.  Hence why India wasnt happy with the Zhuk A performance. Zhuk A used 5 - 10W TR modules.  These are no different than what has been seen in US Jets radar.  Issue was they couldn't keep them cooled properly thus high failure rate which makes the radar useless in use.

    Edit: the source for this was a flight magazine from Russia back a few years ago. Former member Austin (I hope he is OK, haven't seen him here in long time) posted it on here. Used to be posted on a few sites.  It was NIIPS main engineer who mentioned the issues of AESA radar for airborne systems overall are an issue.  Russia has been operating AESA modules for well over a decade (see nebo m which has the modules on other side of the radar itself).  But those are easy to cool.  Magazine is Take-Off.ru

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    Finty
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    Post  Finty Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:52 pm

    Accepted Mike. I’ll take a look at that site as there’s some interesting stuff there regarding AESAs.
    Some western sites may seem pro-Chinese at the expense of Russia but the Chinese should really be seen to be as a threat and the deployment of the Royal Navy’s carrier to the indo-pacific shows this. Of course, if the threat can be overestimated then it can be used to justify more defence spending, but I’m not aware of this happening yet.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:09 pm

    Take off is a great magazine but I don't think they had a publication in forever.

    I highly recommend going through them. Lots of interviews with lead designers and the head of organizations. These are engineers who have experience on the systems and rather in know of what others use. The cooling part is what I gathered from two fronts - these guys and my own father who worked on AESA modules on radar systems for NORAD back in the 80's.

    As for the spending, the biggest racket has always been the mil complex. I am only getting info from Brits who moved here and work in same company as I do (many of them are in their 60's) who mention the destruction of British industries and it appears to me that as with USA, UK's last form of manufacturing is its defense industry. And to that, they are increasing spending. Heck, I'm certain they spend now more than Russia does on military.

    The Brits along with US still tout Russia as main opponent. But they are increasingly seeing China as the real threat. While I believe China imposes a threat on West's dominance in terms of economics. But otherwise, I don't think China poses the military threat (neither does Russia) that the west seems to insinuate.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:00 pm

    Wow.

    People you have a right to an opinion and a right to express that opinion here but you all agreed to respect other members and not abuse other members.

    I am going to start tidying up this thread and decide whether further action is needed... until then this thread is locked.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:44 pm

    How do we know the byelka isnt BS?NIIP lied about it having GaN modules ready, but afaik the byelka in the only Su-57 still uses GAs.

    Russia has all sorts of new AESA radars entering service from ships down to portable ground based radar, to the radar mounts for artillery to track outgoing shells to check trajectory and speed to calculate flight path for accuracy. Their helicopters are all getting radar, and they are fitting radar to drones including ground penetrating radar.

    How do we know what radar materials are being used?

    After all phazotron lied for a decade that they had an AESA ready with their zhuk yet it turns out its barely ready hot garbage?

    Who said they lied. It might not have met the customers requirements for the cost so it might have been ready 10 years ago but 20 million dollars a radar set for a system slightly better than the system they are already using... of course it wont go into production or service... but over time it gets smaller and lighter and cheaper and performance improves.... except it is easier to improve performance when something is in production because it is in production where you work out faster easier cheaper ways of making things... a lot of innovation happens on the factory floor so when things are not in production things can stagnate... and of course their existing radars are not that bad which means their new radars have to be so much better to warrant their increased price.

    Ofc all theories about AESA performance of other countries is irrelevant since everything is classified.

    There are lots of aspects to radar performance and having an array of active elements is one option or design choice, and ironically that can improve performance simply because some noise can be eliminated from the signal at the antenna level so you get a much more pure and clean signal.

    They have been using NEBO for quite some time and it uses AESA radars in several frequency ranges together to form a much better end result than any of the frequency antenna alone could manage... they do the same with the Su-35.

    The MiG-35s will likely be operating with Su-30s upgraded to Su-35 level so much of the time the MiGs will likely operate with their radars turned on to listening mode...

    For example there is 0 evidence that western TR modules have high failure rate outside of wishful thinking and speculation, just how the west wishfully thinks Russian Lband is just for IFF.

    There is clear evidence that AESA radars of the west drive the prices of the aircraft to rather high levels and is a major reason they are so often so expensive.

    Sweden's Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) reported that Egypt ordered 24 Su-35s that will be delivered by 2023. The Su-35 is an evolution of the Sukhoi Su-27 equipped with new avionics, including the Irbis radar with a range of 400km, and a more powerful engine. The new fighters will supplement Egypt's MiG-29M/M2 fighters as well as replace older fighters.

    Well that is a good response to the claim the Su-35 wont be bought by anyone else... Egypt is risking the ire of the US for which they rely on to keep a lot of their military equipment running, so this order is very very significant....

    They have lot to prove and are still far behind russian or western technology.

    Which is not to say they have not made enormous progress and shown impressive capabilities... it is only half jokingly that I suggest the Chinese might make a better F-35 than the Americans simply by doing it right and making sure the damn thing works before putting it into mass production.

    If thats true then the MiG-35 wouldve had it installed long ago, but no, until the late 2010s it just had a shitty 80km range mechanically scanned pulse doppler radar, and thats one of the main reasons why there was almost zero customer interest in it.

    The MiG-35 is not in service anywhere... about 4 have been delivered to operational units which means it is probably being in testing and tactics units that test the systems and then develop tactics to use the aircraft and the manuals the ground crews will use to service the aircraft which will be printed out and distributed to new units as new serial aircraft are built. For the last 10 years they have had MiG-29s in service and the locations it is being operated in probably don't require any better. For all we know a new AESA radar would cost more than the old aircraft itself, while the increase in performance would be irrelevant for a fighter that operates radar silent most of the time with ground based radar normally being used to direct and coordinate its attacks.

    The main difference between the MiG-29M and the MiG-35 is the AESA radar and a few sophisticated avionics bits and pieces... if they weren't interested in an AESA radar there would be little purpose to wait for the MiG-35.

    AFAIK they are not buying any MiG-29Ms... only MiG-35s.

    Also the zhuk AESA has pathetic range for a radar its size. In all metrics, its a garbage AESA and does more to proove russians are lacking technologically in AESAs.

    Yeah, their radars are crap, which is why HATO flys through Russian air space all the time... those Russian idiots don't know what they are doing.

    Maybe they focused on useful technology that is a generation ahead of current radar which might just render all stealth useless and improve radar performance by an order of magnitude... so there is no point in perfecting something that will soon be rather obsolete...

    Ofc whatever gap there was, it has been bridged by the byelka, but the MiG-35 is in the dustbin of history because of phazotron's technological backwardness.

    They are in production and slowly entering service... the fact that so many western experts have written them off is amusing and honestly rather ignorant... an air fleet consisting of only large heavy fighters is not sustainable... even the US needs F-35s and F-16s and F-18s in addition to their F-22s and F-15s and F-14s.

    It is not an accident that the Su-57 is smaller than the Su-35 and closer in size to the MiG-35...

    Su-35S: News - Page 40 Su_57m12

    We dont know anything abot the 1.42 other that it exists, so this is a baseless claim.

    We know what the 1.44 looks like... like this:

    Su-35S: News - Page 40 J-20-m10

    The 1.42 probably has a slightly different wing shape...

    The amusing thing is the denial... some people think the Chinese are stupid... when you are tasked with designing something you always closely look at existing solutions to the problem... look at how they work and how they perform... they might have had different constraints or requirements that forced their design choices that might not apply to you so changes might be useful, but the basic layout and plan could save you a lot of time and money and energy where you would probably end up with a similar design anyway.

    Technology and materials limit your options and choices and production technology also limits alternatives.

    By that logic gripen is a copy of rafale.

    Technically they are all copies of the Ye-8 MiG-21 variant and test aircraft which predates them all...

    Su-35S: News - Page 40 Rdsarc11

    Thirdly you can’t deny the gains made by the Chinese and some of the advantages they have.

    Very true, their progress has been amazing... but there was a lot to catch up, and I think a few people have trouble believing information from China simply because there is little in the way of information about operational experience with all this new stuff... perhaps if it was tested in war and proven against other kit to be effective that the opinions might improve... and it was no difference with Russian stuff... few western experts gave their calibre land attack missiles much second thoughts because having the missiles is only a tiny piece of the puzzle... but as the Russians showed in Syria they have the recon and intel to find and identify enemy targets deep in enemy territory and be able to attack them with precision guided long range cruise missiles fired thousands of kms away...

    Also most of their other gear has been rotated through Syria to test it and they have faced ISIS, but also western supported and funded forces with rather sophisticated drone attacks which they appear to be easily capable of stopping .... not to mention that western cruise missile attack for which Syrian forces with individual air defence systems were able to block most of without an IADS at the time. 71 threats out of 103 shot down, those weapons that were not shot down, some were spoofed into flying into the ground, and others hit old chemical labs that are disused and therefore now undefended... and then very successful attacks on Saudi Arabia by Iranian supported Houthies and then Iranian ballistic missile attacks on US bases in Iraq that were unable to defend themselves despite getting an hours warning...

    Lots of things have been proven, but China has yet to step up to the plate so of course there will be questions... I am sure the Chinese designers will be keen to get experience to make their products better.

    Many of the first Russian drones were terrible too... weak datalinks... low powered poor resolution cameras that were all shaky... etc etc, but with experience and looking at what Israeli drones can do (even old gen Israeli drones like four post) and they have gotten much much better.

    Although I don’t expect another Sino-Soviet split if you will, the Russians should really be keeping an eye on them as they aren’t your best friends and have proven to be crafty with the plagiarism that was the J-11 project.

    It is a game everyone plays... just don't remain still so they are only copying what you have in production and in service... they are copying what you had on the design board 20 years ago... what is on there now...

    The Brits along with US still tout Russia as main opponent. But they are increasingly seeing China as the real threat. While I believe China imposes a threat on West's dominance in terms of economics. But otherwise, I don't think China poses the military threat (neither does Russia) that the west seems to insinuate.

    The only threat China and Russia pose to the west is independent voices that don't do as they are told when they are told.... the west has to realise it is not the centre of the universe... it is not the only adult in the room and does not have the right to tell any other countries what they should or should not or can or cannot do. The west needs to learn to treat other countries... whether less powerful than they are, or more powerful than they are with a bit of respect... or they can **** off is pretty much the message from BRICS.

    The west most likely will continue to play its little power games and continue to decline.
    Finty
    Finty

    Posts : 242
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    Join date : 2021-02-10
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    Su-35S: News - Page 40 Empty Re: Su-35S: News

    Post  Finty Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:38 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    As for the spending, the biggest racket has always been the mil complex. I am only getting info from Brits who moved here and work in same company as I do (many of them are in their 60's) who mention the destruction of British industries and it appears to me that as with USA, UK's last form of manufacturing is its defense industry. And to that, they are increasing spending. Heck, I'm certain they spend now more than Russia does on military.

    The Brits along with US still tout Russia as main opponent.  But they are increasingly seeing China as the real threat.  While I believe China imposes a threat on West's dominance in terms of economics.  But otherwise, I don't think China poses the military threat (neither does Russia) that the west seems to insinuate.

    Possibly a good discussion for another thread, it is depressing what has happened to our heavy industry with so much sold off to Johnny Foreigner or closed down and the fact we no longer design our own military aircraft is a shame. We just about do ok with what we're currently producing either on our own or as multi-national projects but it doesn't always get good press, i.e when BAe products were being used by the Saudis and Israelis!


    Last edited by Finty on Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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