Kalibr missile system

GarryB wrote:

Why is there a size difference between the 3M-54-1 and the 3M-14? One has a range of 1600km (oficial not especulacion according to that blog) and the other has lesser range (300km exportacion/ 600km especulacion) while they look almost the same. Why not use 3M-14 as basis for an anti ship missile instead of the 3M-54-1?

I don't know for sure, but suspect the shorter range weapon is designed to hit ships and mobile targets, while the weapon with the longer range is a land attack weapon.

The shorter range weapon needs onboard radar to find and attack its target and might also carry chaff and flares and disposable jammers to enable it to penetrate the target ships defences... and may have a larger explosive payload.

Likely both missiles will have a domestic and export version with export models limited to 300kms or less.

Another factor could be detection range... enemy land threats that are fixed could be targetted from a wider range of places whereas finding enemy ships that can be clearly IDed as enemy and can be reached by a subsonic missile before it leaves the area means shorter range shots make more sense anyway.

At first I thought the 3m-14 was to be fired using 650mm torpedo tubes while 3M-54-1 can be fired with 533mm tubes. But other sites list both as can be fired using 533mm tubes with only 1 source listing the 3M-14 as 620mm and 3M-54-1 as 510mm, so I guess I'm wrong. Also I read somewhere that the 3m-54-1 uses the Kh-35's seeker, so probably the size is just for cost cutting? They're for low priority targets like transport ships? Cheap swarm missiles?

Also I read somewhere that the 3m-54-1 uses the Kh-35's seeker, so probably the size is just for cost cutting? They're for low priority targets like transport ships? Cheap swarm missiles?

The Kh-35 is reported to have a very sophisticated MMW radar seeker that has excellent range and discrimination that is very difficult to jam or fool.

Don't underestimate it.

US Navy Lacks Plan to Defend Against `Sizzler' Missile  

``This is a very low-flying, fast missile,'' said retired Rear Admiral Eric McVadon, a former U.S. naval attache in Beijing. ``It won't be visible until it's quite close. By the time you detect it to the time it hits you is very short. You'd want to know your capabilities to handle this sort of missile.''

The Navy's ship-borne Aegis system, deployed on cruisers and destroyers starting in the early 1980s, is designed to protect aircraft-carrier battle groups from missile attacks. But current and former officials say the Navy has no assurance Aegis, built by Lockheed Martin Corp., is capable of detecting, tracking and intercepting the Sizzler.

``This was an issue when I walked in the door in 2001,'' Thomas Christie, the Defense Department's top weapons-testing official from mid-2001 to early 2005, said in an interview.

`A Major Issue'

`` The Navy recognized this was a major issue, and over the years, I had continued promises they were going to fully fund development and production'' of missiles that could replicate the Sizzler to help develop a defense against it, Christie said. ``They haven't.''

3M-54E Sizzler Anti-ship missile fired from coast.. (can also be launched
from subs and warships ie.. Yasen Submarines or Newest Russian corvettes and frigates in service.)




All the variants of Sizzler missile.

Pretty good summary on the Kalibr system....different versions and the vessels that are armed with them

Russian Navy’s Long Arm: Kalibr missile family
http://southfront.org/russian-navys-long-arm-kalibr-missile-family/

Cyberspec wrote:Pretty good summary on the Kalibr system....different versions and the vessels that are armed with them

Russian Navy’s Long Arm: Kalibr missile family
http://southfront.org/russian-navys-long-arm-kalibr-missile-family/

I took particular notice of this sentance:

"The Project 949AM submarines will carry up to 72 Kalibr-PL and Oniks missiles."

It certainly sounds like 3x Klub/Kalibr/Oniks per Granit launch tube!

I can well imagine the carnage potential of a trio of modernised Oscars with a land-attack load-out. Jihadist scum and Pentagon nazis had best beware!

Those were Kalibr-NK cruise missiles.

Caspian Flotilla simply demonstrated what those small missile ships, granted, accompanied by a larger corvette Dagestan, can do. The file on REAL distributed lethality is, finally, open. 4 ships, with total displacement of about half that of a single destroyer and the price tag even less than that, launched the salvo of 26 Kalibr cruise missiles from the Caspian Sea.Strategic ramifications of this are colossal, it was clear already before, but after that it became a reality of an immense power of modern missile weapons and those seemingly "unimpressive" platforms which carry them. After all, the range of Kalibr is up to 2500 kilometers and GLONASS' combat (not civilian) CEP (Circular Error Probable) is rumored to be about 0.4-0.6 meters, that is 1.5-2 feet.

max steel wrote:Those were Kalibr-NK cruise missiles.

Caspian Flotilla simply demonstrated what those small missile ships, granted, accompanied by a larger corvette Dagestan, can do. The file on REAL distributed lethality is, finally, open. 4 ships, with total displacement of about half that of a single destroyer and the price tag even less than that, launched the salvo of 26 Kalibr cruise missiles from the Caspian Sea.Strategic ramifications of this are colossal, it was clear already before, but after that it became a reality of an immense power of modern missile weapons and those seemingly "unimpressive" platforms which carry them. After all, the range of Kalibr is up to 2500 kilometers and GLONASS' combat (not civilian) CEP  (Circular Error Probable) is rumored to be about 0.4-0.6 meters, that is 1.5-2 feet.

Ill repeat this for 12457th time, we do not know range of Kalibr at this point, 2.500km range was once claimed to be by commander of Caspitan Fleet however other than that no such info was ever released up to this date. Till they do not hit something 2.500km away ill stick with range of 1.500-1600km, we simply cant know unless some solid statement ever comes from Novator or Russian MoD. I am just being logical here.

And CEP you stated is far, far from being real, one thing is accuracy of GLONASS, other thing is CEP of a cruise missile i know that some Russian generals stated 2-3m CEP for journalists but lets get real now, one thing is average person reading news on RT/Sputnik, one thing is person with extensive knowledge about military technology. Taurus has CEP of 10m claimed by desiegners, Tomahawk has TERCOM, DSMAC or GPS and has claimed CEP of 10m, Iskander M has claimed CEP of 8m... There is no chance whatsoever that Kalibr has CEP of 50cm, no missile has. Just saying.

Militarov wrote:

max steel wrote:Those were Kalibr-NK cruise missiles.

Caspian Flotilla simply demonstrated what those small missile ships, granted, accompanied by a larger corvette Dagestan, can do. The file on REAL distributed lethality is, finally, open. 4 ships, with total displacement of about half that of a single destroyer and the price tag even less than that, launched the salvo of 26 Kalibr cruise missiles from the Caspian Sea.Strategic ramifications of this are colossal, it was clear already before, but after that it became a reality of an immense power of modern missile weapons and those seemingly "unimpressive" platforms which carry them. After all, the range of Kalibr is up to 2500 kilometers and GLONASS' combat (not civilian) CEP  (Circular Error Probable) is rumored to be about 0.4-0.6 meters, that is 1.5-2 feet.

Ill repeat this for 12457th time, we do not know range of Kalibr at this point, 2.500km range was once claimed to be by commander of Caspitan Fleet however other than that no such info was ever released up to this date. Till they do not hit something 2.500km away ill stick with range of 1.500-1600km, we simply cant know unless some solid statement ever comes from Novator or Russian MoD. I am just being logical here.

And CEP you stated is far, far from being real, one thing is accuracy of GLONASS, other thing is CEP of a cruise missile i know that some Russian generals stated 2-3m CEP for journalists but lets get real now, one thing is average person reading news on RT/Sputnik, one thing is person with extensive knowledge about military technology. Taurus has CEP of 10m claimed by desiegners, Tomahawk has TERCOM, DSMAC or GPS and has claimed CEP of 10m, Iskander M has claimed CEP of 8m... There is no chance whatsoever that Kalibr has CEP of 50cm, no missile has. Just saying.

I quoted someone who has served in Soviet Union and Russian Navy and he writes for naval publications too . So , I'll stick to his point

Militarov wrote:2.500km range was once claimed to be by commander of Caspitan Fleet

You'd think he would know the range of the missiles arming his ships...I mean come on


We know for sure the Kalibr range is at least 1500km...Shoigu when reporting to Putin about the launch said the missiles have a greater range than 1500km

Cyberspec wrote:

Militarov wrote:2.500km range was once claimed to be by commander of Caspitan Fleet

You'd think he would know the range of the missiles arming his ships...I mean come on


We know for sure the Kalibr range is at least 1500km...Shoigu when reporting to Putin about the launch said the missiles have a greater range than 1500km

I never said he does not know their range, question is did he say the truth? It would not affect him in any to overestimate/underestimate their range in any of the two directions. Why is going to say he is is lying ? Novator? Russian MoD? And that wouldnt be first or last time that military comander lies about such things for pure publicity or simply drops "a bite" for "enemy".

Greater yes, how much xD? 1600, 2000, 2500, 3000? Thats what we do not know, area for speculations is huge and i prefer to have some solid source rather than just an inteview.

I guess we won't know for sure until we see the producers documents.....one more source, from exactly a year ago....pretty reliable IMO

Дело в том, что ракетный корабль ”Дагестан” стал первым кораблем в составе ВМФ России вооруженным новейшим ракетным комплексом ”Калибр-НК” предназначенным для нанесения ракетных ударов по морским целям на дистанции до 350 км и по береговым до 2600 км!

Frigate "Dagestan" (in 2012) was the first warship in the VMF to be armed with the new missile system Kalibr-NK that can engage sea targets at a distance of 350km and land targets up to a distance of 2600km

http://eurasian-defence.ru/?q=node/31968

By Artem Balabin author of  "We Bear the Flag of St Andrew" and consultant on Naval matters
http://eurasian-defence.ru/node/26653

BTW, nice pic of the missile from the link

Cyberspec wrote:I guess we won't know for sure until we see the producers documents.....one more source, from exactly a year ago....pretty reliable IMO

Дело в том, что ракетный корабль ”Дагестан” стал первым кораблем в составе ВМФ России вооруженным новейшим ракетным комплексом ”Калибр-НК” предназначенным для нанесения ракетных ударов по морским целям на дистанции до 350 км и по береговым до 2600 км!

Frigate "Dagestan" (in 2012) was the first warship in the VMF to be armed with the new missile system Kalibr-NK that can engage sea targets at a distance of 350km and land targets up to a distance of 2600km

http://eurasian-defence.ru/?q=node/31968

By Artem Balabin author of  "We Bear the Flag of St Andrew" and consultant on Naval matters
http://eurasian-defence.ru/node/26653

BTW, nice pic of the missile from the link

Yeah i prefer to trust and wait legit sources, producer is the best source actually. All these bloggers, army rejects and "specialists" of varios kinds are mostly picking info where i can pick it myself.

Nice one, from docks.

Wow ...



LINK

Viktor wrote:Wow ...



LINK

As i said, in 2 months it will be 6.000.

"То, что и полторы тысячи километров для новой ракеты - далеко не предел, сегодня уже ясно. Хотя почему должно быть иначе? Ведь даже предок "Калибра", ракета "Гранат" еще в начале восьмидесятых летала на 3000 километров. И российские оружейники тридцать лет не топтались на месте. Впрочем, точные данные – военная тайна. Эксперты теперь лишь предполагают, что радиус действия "Калибра" может быть не меньше четырех тысяч километров, а значит, всего несколько катеров в Крыму и в Калининграде будут способны контролировать территории почти всей Европы и Ближнего Востока. Каспийская флотилия уже прикрывает и Ближний Восток, и значительную часть Азии, а наличие ракет "Калибр" на Тихоокеанском флоте позволит обеспечить безопасность восточных рубежей страны." - here too

Here for an example they claim it might has range of 4000km, in 2 months it will be 6.000. They are also saying they have "military sources".

The Granat had a range of 2,500km in the 1980s, why would a larger heavier missile with improved electronics and propulsion do better now?

You can of course think what you like.

GarryB wrote:The Granat had a range of 2,500km in the 1980s, why would a larger heavier missile with improved electronics and propulsion do better now?

The Kalibr is a further development of the Granat, which is why they have similar characteristics including max range....2500 km

The RK-55 Granat is a submarine (SS-N-21 ‘Sampson) and ground-launched (SSC-X-4 ‘Slingshot’, 3K10) intermediate range cruise missile developed by the Soviet Union from 1976. The RK-55 is the submarine/ground-launched component of the “55” series of cruise missiles which also included the Kh-55 (see separate entry) air-launched missile. This family of cruise missiles was the Soviet Union’s response to the U.S. Tomahawk series. 1 The ground-launched variant was dismantled and destroyed due to the signing of the 1987 INF Treaty.

....

Range:2,400 km (submarine), 3,000 km (ground)

http://missilethreat.com/missiles/rk-55-ss-n-21ssc-x-4/

The Kalibr is a further development of the Granat, which is why they have similar characteristics including max range....2500 km

The Klub export missiles and Kalibr domestic models are based on the Granat... but why do you think they would have the same range?

Do you think the Kh-101 and Kh-102 have the same range as Kh-55 from the 1980s with a range of 3,000km?

(Granat and Kh-55 were not related BTW)

You posted an image showing the combined subsonic supersonic Klub missile described as having a flight range of 4,000km... how could that be if a similar missile without the rocket fuel to accelerate the final stage of the weapon to mach 3, but with active radar homing and a conventional HE warhead can get to 4,000km distant targets, then why would the same missile design that is subsonic all the way have a shorter range?

BTW the original missiles got better range by flying at medium height at low subsonic speeds... flying low all the way would certainly reduce radar signature but also reduce max range by a significant margin.

GarryB wrote:

The Kalibr is a further development of the Granat, which is why they have similar characteristics including max range....2500 km

The Klub export missiles and Kalibr domestic models are based on the Granat... but why do you think they would have the same range?

I'm going by what reputable sources are saying, a max range of about 2500km....it's been mentioned for at least a couple of years already

You posted an image showing the combined subsonic supersonic Klub missile described as having a flight range of 4,000km... how could that be if a similar missile without the rocket fuel to accelerate the final stage of the weapon to mach 3, but with active radar homing and a conventional HE warhead can get to 4,000km distant targets, then why would the same missile design that is subsonic all the way have a shorter range?

Someone else posted the image. I think Daddy Dragon  

I'm sceptical of the 4000km range claim, which has only appeared since the Syria launch....it's quite possible that a longer ranged version is being worked on. I'll try to dig something up...time permiting

Do you think the Kh-101 and Kh-102 have the same range as Kh-55 from the 1980s with a range of 3,000km?
(Granat and Kh-55 were not related BTW)

No

Well I did just post an article on the new development of detonation engines which should double fuel efficiency and thrust, in which such engines are directly applicable to cruise missiles. Who's to say there isn't a Kalibr 3M-14 test bed version of such technology, being tested in secret? Of course just speculation...

Does Platform has any role to play ? I mean is there any difference in the impact of air launched cruise missile or naval launched?

max steel wrote:Does Platform has any role to play ? I mean is there any difference in the impact of air launched cruise missile or naval launched?

The higher the altitude and speed, the greater the range you can get from firing an air-launched missile.

"artjomh" is probably the most knowledgable on these matters....wonder why he hasn't given us his 2 cents

Cyberspec wrote: "artjomh" is probably the most knowledgable on these matters....wonder why he hasn't  given us his 2 cents

I know someone more knowledgeable but he rides solo.

Cyberspec wrote: "artjomh" is probably the most knowledgable on these matters....wonder why he hasn't  given us his 2 cents

Sorry, I wasn't paying attention and scanning the page I am not sure what's the point of contention. What's the question?

Also, I am assuredly not "most knowledgeable". But I can add my two pence.

artjomh wrote:Sorry, I wasn't paying attention and scanning the page I am not sure what's the point of contention. What's the question?

Also, I am assuredly not "most knowledgeable". But I can add my two pence.

We're discussing the Kalibr-NK's max range....whether reports of a 2500 km range are true or not