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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    kvs
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 28 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  kvs Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:37 am

    How about a suit against Obama, Bush and Clinton for all the "collateral" damage their wars caused.

    This lawsuit is total kangaroo court nonsense.

    And that is assuming the rebels had anything to do with the downing. But anyone who has researched this topic
    knows that they had nothing to do with it.
    onwiththewar
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    Post  onwiththewar Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:14 am

    Akula971 wrote:Might seem a bit off topic but I would like to give my personal views on the MH17, and everyone is encouraged to debate and demolish everything I have written, it only helps to get a cleared picture (by elimination, as them science people call it)

    See I have been reading a lot about the MH17 getting shot down and I am just gonna try and write a summary of what happened, just to get a better picture because everyone is blaming everybody out there.

    Lets start some days before the MH 17 went down, on 14th July 2014, the NAF forces were able to shoot down an UAF An 26. One month ago, in June they were able to shoot down an Il 76 and it was taken out by a heat seeking missile such as Grom (which NAF had at that time) or say a Strela, because it got hit precisely on the engine and hit the deck slowly.

    Now at that time, in July 2014 the NAF had all sorts of short range ADS, from ZSU-23-2s to GROM MANPADs and well Strela 10Ms as well. But even till then, they had no Radar guided ADS. They were able to take over 1 air defence forces base, and it had a Buk M1. This Buk M1 however, had been rendered useless. It was indeed confirmed by the UA authorities who said, in the Rada, that they had been rendered useless. Before or after 14 July there has been no recorded use of Radar guided ADS by NAF.

    Further, lets see how these Buk M1s work. There are a no. of vehicles and components that make up a Buk. They require a target acquisition radar, a command vehicle, a Telar and a reloading vehicle (bare basic). The Buk M1 that NAF 'allegedly' would have had would be a TELAR. The MH17 was flying OVER the max. engagement range of a lone TELAR. You are free to look up all of this, its all out there. If any target acquisition radar would have become operational, UAF would be all over it. Maybe send a SEAD Su 24 for it too.

    Videos from ex UAF Buk and Su 25 operators have more or less confirmed that it was indeed a Su 25 that shot down the MH17. Just a few hours after the shooting down of MH17, Russia was able to show its Radar ATC data showing the Su 25 engaging the MH17. I mean, they couldnt have possibly fabricated that in such a short time.

    Things that might have been overlooked -
    1) the UA forces never released the ATC data recording, plus the fate of the Spanish ATC guy who tweeted about suspicious activity.
    2) Eye witness reports of a Su 25 flying by
    3) UAF shelling the shit out of the crash site afterwards.
    4) MH17 was told to loose altitude

    Really, the 3 point is a CLEAR cover up attempt - if they knew that it was NAF that shot up the MH17, they would NEVER , i repeat NEVER destroy ANY evidence of the aircraft or wreckage, but they did blow the wreck to kingdom come.

    It leaves little space for other 'theories' if you ask me. The distinct marks of a GSh-30-2 dont look like anything a Buk warhead could do, a Buk warhead would have cut through the entire fuselage like hot discs not prominent bullet marks.  

    The part about the missile being a Python Gen 5 and not a R 60 is something i cannot comment on. My personal view on this, since July 17 has been - UAF Su 25 tails MH17, takes a lock on with a R60, shoots, then goes guns guns guns to be double sure and runs off home. The only reason it went to guns is because, as seen in the past, a R60 alone cannot take out a commercial airliner, apparently it wasnt the first time a big plane was shot at by a R60.

    Well said. Based on your post, I'd like to add, and this is something I only thought of recently. Buk missiles have very identifiable fragment shapes or pellets, see attached photo (taken from a Ukrainian site). Some are square shaped, some are distinctly X shaped.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 28 640x480

    I have seen photos of the warheads, it appears a Buk contains both types of fragments in a single shell, X shaped ones on the inside and square ones on the outside. See below:

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 28 54501_original

    So far the debates have been on matching holes from the MH17 to these fragments. Many people are saying, "Look, square shaped hole, must be a Buk fragment." Ukrainians found a few random shaped melted metal pieces and said, "Look this Buk fragment penetrated MF17."

    However, if you think about it from another angle. Apparently 1 missile contains 20,000 of them. I believe a very small percentage of them will hit the target on impact, most of them, however will travel through air without touching anything, and free fall to the ground.

    So, around the crash site, or at least around point of impact, we should see plenty of these intact pellets on the ground. Right? I know they are going to scatter in a big area, but given the fact there are 20,000 of them, surely some will be found by the "international investigation team" over a year of of "investigation". But of course, we all know that none of these real evidences of a Buk are found.

    Just a thought.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 28 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  PapaDragon Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:16 am

    kvs wrote:How about a suit against Obama, Bush and Clinton for all the "collateral" damage their wars caused.    

    This lawsuit is total kangaroo court nonsense.

    And that is assuming the rebels had anything to do with the downing.    But anyone who has researched this topic
    knows that they had nothing to do with it.

    Funnily enough, had the rebels shot it down (which is very unlikely) it would qualify precisely as collateral damage so no harm no foul...

    But I would say that it is more likely that ukrops simply went for some easy pity points and flipped the switch.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 28 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Vann7 Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:54 am

    People investigating the MH-17 ignore a small detail... and that is , that if
    the whole attack on the Malasyan Plane was Staged,Planned,Organized by USA and Kiev
    to blame Russian Rebels for the shot down of a civilians plane..   then you cannot look
    at the whole event.. in a normal logical way.. but instead as a Terrorist Attack done
    by Western Intelligence Services , to frame Russia..  

    So to give you an example how The West can operate.. in a false flag event..
    I have done by research and in 9/11 for example.. In the World trade center attacks in 2001.. where 3,000 civilians killed ,Done by FBI/CIA/MI6/Mossad n full coperation with US government.....
    The planes that crashed with the buildings were merely a distraction..to made it look ,they provoked the collapse of the buildings and that "Terrorist" in middel east hijacked them.
    That is 2 planes shutdown 3 buildings..and the last one not even touched by a plane.. So WTC1 ,WTC 2 and WTC-7. All of them were internally Rigged with Military Grade
    nano thermite explosives on the whole buildings main steel columns. and controlled by Control
    Remote.. and the Pentagon was not not hit by a Plane.. Instead by a missile ,but a Cesna military plane also flew towards the pentagon..as it was going to collide but fly over in the end..
    and after the plane pass the Pentagon ,a bomb/missile impact the pentagon. and the plane who collapse to the world trade center..were not civilian planes but military unmarked ones.. it was a very complex operation..and is whats helps to made it near impossible to solve it.. and they justify the more easier theory to explain.. that is Bin Laden send jihadist to America to take fly training and withing weeks of training they learn how to fly a 747..  lol1  then hijack 4 planes and crash it in 3 buildings right in the center. Doing an incredibly difficult flight trajectory even for expert pilots with decades of experience. 

    So it was a whole Theater Act ,that took years to plan..and they made it to look terrorist did it.. but it was a 100% a fraud. an Internal Job.

    That said.. the Malasyan plane was not an accident by either side and instead a false flag ,it will be difficult if not impossible to know exactly how things happened unless you get insider from Ukraine Government information.  Israel for example could have developed land to air Missiles ,that have a similar signature ,than the Buks-M1  that Ukraine had and could have given to israel ,to help them develop or modify their missiles ,that could be used to blame a Russian weapon..  

    If it was a false flag.. then Ukraine could have for example ,on purpose allowed the Rebels to capture a damaged BUK-M1 , in order for the attack on the plane ,to be framed on the Rebels.

    There could be false Witness too.. claiming saw something ,and this and this..to shape the version that the west wants.. etc..

    But whatever it happened.. im sure the Rebels did not did it.. a Huge Civilian 747 plane,on the day it crashed ,on clear skies in that day ..will be perfectly visible as a civilian commercial plane
    for the Rebels on naked eye at 10km altitude.. SO the possibility the Rebels "confused" a military plane with civilians is not there.  On top of that Commercial Airliners use transponders
    that send a signal ,indicating they are a civilian plane ,to all airports in the world..and that Russian radars can detect in any part of Europe.. So the possibility that Russia Air defenses ,or a trainned proffessional with a BUK could confuse a 747 with a military plane are ZERO. So neither Russia ,neither the Rebels with help could have shot down the plane by "accident" . it was clearly visible as civilian plane with plane sight or radars if Rebels had.. and the Rebels will not shot down a civilian plane for fun ,neither russia.

    This only leave the possibility of Ukraine shotting a plane by "Accident" thinking it was Putin
    plane.. because apparently Malasyan planes looks similar to Putin presidential plane and they both flew close to each other before Ukraine or an intentionally shot down plane to frame the Rebels and Russia.  

    interestingly there are also reports that the US warship with radars was close to Ukraine monitoring its airspace.. so there are people that claims.. the US navy coordinated the whole
    operation from the black sea.

    Neither lets forget how the Donetsk prime minister apparently told..when they arrived
    at the crash scene.. already many bodies were rotten..as if they died days earlier and were
    being Put in the plane..

    If it was a false flag well planned attack by the west to frame Russia and rebels for it..
    Then the first thing they will do ,is to try to make it as complex as possible the crime scene.
    Just like in 9/11.. and use distractions..So the more likely the criminals can get away with the crime.. because of its complexity to understand how it was done.  

    If i was to bet.. i will say the whole thing was a false flag attack.. and many people were deceived into participating on it.. For example if Ukraine airforce did it.. possibly they did ,because they were told by their superiors it was Putin presidential plane.. and Norway? Airport from where the malasyan plane take off. it could have been part of the operation too.  lets not forget Kiev air traffic Controllers are responsible for give a safe fly path to civilians planes..and they did the opposite.. and guided the malasyan plane to the worse possible fly path ,where the Ukraine airforce was being shot down every day..  A clear violation and crime done by Kiev .
    So if it was me.. the first place to investigate will be Kiev Air traffic controllers.. to investigate them.. why they guide a civilian plane into a war zone. is the first question to be made to Ukraine.  Another question to be asked is why Ukraine Airforce according to Russian Radars ,why flying close to a civilian plane. Even if the planes like in 9/11 were just a distraction.. their
    flight path was illegal under international laws. and put in risk the security of the malasyan plane.

    One possible reason for not using Buks-m1 , why i think they were not used.. is because they leave a big smoke trail.. that could show from where the missile came..and any Rebels or journalist with a camera could ruin the day for Ukraine..with such lethal evidence..

    So one possibility for me is that the Ukraine airforce did it ,but using special modified missiles
    by the west ,with signature of a Buk missile.. and the Buks in this case were used only for its radars to illuminate the plane..its location and heading.. and the ukraine airforce finish it. with a custom made missile in combination with 30mm cannon fire .
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 28 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Vann7 Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:46 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    whir wrote:The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 28 UJw1raV
    The same guy, first in July 2014 second in July 2015, aged a bit?

    That sniper rifle is really lethal.. it have small range about ~600m, but can destroy anyone
    inside any building ,even if covering behind a wall with bullet proof vest.. will cut like
    knife in butter ,dismember anyone covering behind any concrete wall.



    Definitively ,is one weapon that you will not want to see used against you..
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    Post  Akula971 Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:57 am

    onwiththewar wrote:
    Akula971 wrote:Might seem a bit off topic but I would like to give my personal views on the MH17, and everyone is encouraged to debate and demolish everything I have written, it only helps to get a cleared picture (by elimination, as them science people call it)

    See I have been reading a lot about the MH17 getting shot down and I am just gonna try and write a summary of what happened, just to get a better picture because everyone is blaming everybody out there.

    Lets start some days before the MH 17 went down, on 14th July 2014, the NAF forces were able to shoot down an UAF An 26. One month ago, in June they were able to shoot down an Il 76 and it was taken out by a heat seeking missile such as Grom (which NAF had at that time) or say a Strela, because it got hit precisely on the engine and hit the deck slowly.

    Now at that time, in July 2014 the NAF had all sorts of short range ADS, from ZSU-23-2s to GROM MANPADs and well Strela 10Ms as well. But even till then, they had no Radar guided ADS. They were able to take over 1 air defence forces base, and it had a Buk M1. This Buk M1 however, had been rendered useless. It was indeed confirmed by the UA authorities who said, in the Rada, that they had been rendered useless. Before or after 14 July there has been no recorded use of Radar guided ADS by NAF.

    Further, lets see how these Buk M1s work. There are a no. of vehicles and components that make up a Buk. They require a target acquisition radar, a command vehicle, a Telar and a reloading vehicle (bare basic). The Buk M1 that NAF 'allegedly' would have had would be a TELAR. The MH17 was flying OVER the max. engagement range of a lone TELAR. You are free to look up all of this, its all out there. If any target acquisition radar would have become operational, UAF would be all over it. Maybe send a SEAD Su 24 for it too.

    Videos from ex UAF Buk and Su 25 operators have more or less confirmed that it was indeed a Su 25 that shot down the MH17. Just a few hours after the shooting down of MH17, Russia was able to show its Radar ATC data showing the Su 25 engaging the MH17. I mean, they couldnt have possibly fabricated that in such a short time.

    Things that might have been overlooked -
    1) the UA forces never released the ATC data recording, plus the fate of the Spanish ATC guy who tweeted about suspicious activity.
    2) Eye witness reports of a Su 25 flying by
    3) UAF shelling the shit out of the crash site afterwards.
    4) MH17 was told to loose altitude

    Really, the 3 point is a CLEAR cover up attempt - if they knew that it was NAF that shot up the MH17, they would NEVER , i repeat NEVER destroy ANY evidence of the aircraft or wreckage, but they did blow the wreck to kingdom come.

    It leaves little space for other 'theories' if you ask me. The distinct marks of a GSh-30-2 dont look like anything a Buk warhead could do, a Buk warhead would have cut through the entire fuselage like hot discs not prominent bullet marks.  

    The part about the missile being a Python Gen 5 and not a R 60 is something i cannot comment on. My personal view on this, since July 17 has been - UAF Su 25 tails MH17, takes a lock on with a R60, shoots, then goes guns guns guns to be double sure and runs off home. The only reason it went to guns is because, as seen in the past, a R60 alone cannot take out a commercial airliner, apparently it wasnt the first time a big plane was shot at by a R60.

    Well said. Based on your post, I'd like to add, and this is something I only thought of recently. Buk missiles have very identifiable fragment shapes or pellets, see attached photo (taken from a Ukrainian site). Some are square shaped, some are distinctly X shaped.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 28 640x480

    I have seen photos of the warheads, it appears a Buk contains both types of fragments in a single shell, X shaped ones on the inside and square ones on the outside. See below:

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 28 54501_original

    So far the debates have been on matching holes from the MH17 to these fragments. Many people are saying, "Look, square shaped hole, must be a Buk fragment." Ukrainians found a few random shaped melted metal pieces and said, "Look this Buk fragment penetrated MF17."

    However, if you think about it from another angle. Apparently 1 missile contains 20,000 of them. I believe a very small percentage of them will hit the target on impact, most of them, however will travel through air without touching anything, and free fall to the ground.

    So, around the crash site, or at least around point of impact, we should see plenty of these intact pellets on the ground. Right? I know they are going to scatter in a big area, but given the fact there are 20,000 of them, surely some will be found by the "international investigation team" over a year of of "investigation". But of course, we all know that none of these real evidences of a Buk are found.

    Just a thought.

    That is a good thought. I was thinking if they would have found spent GSh-30-2 shells all over the place, empty casings that is. But then again, UAF punitive forces shelled that place to kingdom come - clearly destroying evidence right there. Also how do they even think that these pieces will remain intact ?? I am sure, when the warhead detonates they are accelerated to crazy speeds, and a lot of heat is produced that should change their shape. Its not like even if they fell, they'd just free fall. They have energy that will go down and ALSO now that you think of it, people all over the area would have heard a HUGE boom in the air , a HUGE one. Its a 70 kg HE fragmentation warhead after all. That is supposed to make a huge amount of noise, given it blew up 10 kms or so in the air.

    But no eye witness account till yet has seen anything of that matter. or Heard. This is a new point against the Buk theory.

    ALSO I would like to quote you on this, Vann7, ''One possible reason for not using Buks-m1 , why i think they were not used.. is because they leave a big smoke trail.. that could show from where the missile came..and any Rebels or journalist with a camera could ruin the day for Ukraine..with such lethal evidence.. ''

    You know, when the missile was fired, or the location from where it was fired, there were journalists there, the very day. And they asked the people about the smoke trail and there was no smoke trail. See all the civis in Donbass, even back in 2014 were not pro-Russians. Most of them were just living with the war. And no one could have just told them, all of them, to say that there was no smoke trail. It was even covered on CNN, but they didnt air it at all. Let me find that video for you, i cant seem to find it, but i will post it once i do. Even when you see the wreck of the MH17 after it was shot down, there was no smoke trail leading to it. I mean the media would have gone CRAZY if there was one because given that it was a Buk, a 685Kg missile, it would have blown that aircraft up in the air and the point of impact and the point of it hitting the ground would not be too far apart.
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    Post  Akula971 Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:10 am

    Found the footage after all



    Scene of the crash immediately after it hit the ground, notice how there is no smoke at all. Different angles, just to get a better view.





    I dont know if it really is chaff or what.


    And it looks nothing like this :



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    Post  Vann7 Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:44 am

    Whatever it happened.. US government will always blame RUssia and Rebels.. lets not forget
    about the Syrian chemical weapons false flag attack.. Obama saying there is no way for rebels
    to have chemical weapons so it had to be assad.  But US and its allies are providing weapons
    and chemical weapons to the terrorist they support.. so pure lies.

    On other news..
    The 6 year old boy that was kidnapped recently in western ukraine by the Right Sector .. and saved by Police. and provoked a confrontation between Right Sector and Ukraine police.



    Hopefully this event will open the eyes of all Ukrainians and Ukraine army and Euromaidans about the bunch of criminals the Right Sector is.
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    Post  whir Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:42 am

    Akula971 wrote:But no eye witness account till yet has seen anything of that matter. or Heard. This is a new point against the Buk theory.

    Not true, one one of the first videos with locals talking among themselves they were claiming to have heard two consecutive explosions and also a local girl (DonCity) stated over MP.net that she heard two big explosions one after another.

    Akula971 wrote:ALSO I would like to quote you on this, Vann7, ''One possible reason for not using Buks-m1 , why i think they were not used.. is because they leave a big smoke trail.. that could show from where the missile came..and any Rebels or journalist with a camera could ruin the day for Ukraine..with such lethal evidence.. ''
    Again not necessarily true, with overcast weather vapour trails are not so easy to identify because of the cloud dimming, people living near refrigeration chimneys can confirm this phenomena.


    Auto spelling again angry


    Last edited by whir on Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  whir Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:56 am

    Jeroen Akkermans via Google Translate wrote:‏@JeroenAkkermans 3:19 AM - 16 Jul 2015
    Tanks arrived in Grabova. They should ensure safety during # MH17 memorial service
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 28 2yzlen5

    Дарина Ковальчук wrote:Right Sector in Kharkov in the grocery market 'Tale'

    Viktor Kovalenko wrote:‏@MrKovalenko 11:28 PM - 16 Jul 2015
    #Ukraine declared Russian consul in #Odessa Valeriy Shibeko as persona non grata for diversion activities. He's gone.

    Россия 24 wrote:New People's why Kiev is afraid of the appearance of the Transcarpathian People's Republic?
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    Post  Khepesh Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:17 am

    US State Department advice for Ukraine issued yesterday says do not travel to Crimea or Donbass and any US citizens in the area to leave. Also advises extreme caution in Kharkov and Odessa. Add this to the news that Russian Consular General in Odessa is now declared "persona non grata" and it seems to me that Americans know situation is about to change. The wording on State Department page is vomit making..... http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/alertswarnings/ukraine-travel-warning.html
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    Post  whir Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:35 am

    Sharij via Google Translate wrote:Порошенко: Разведка сообщает, что будет вторжение
    Poroshenko: "Intelligence reports that there will be an invasion"
    16/07/2015 21:02

    Poroshenko: "Intelligence reports that there will be an invasion"

    During the escalation of hostilities in the Donets Basin on the night of July 15, killing several civilians. In an interview with Christiane Amanpour on CNN today, July 16, said the president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko.

    "I have information from sources of intelligence that the invasion would be," - said Poroshenko.

    In addition, the President noted the escalation, which occurs in the area of the ATO is now. "Yesterday I lost 8 military and 16 military were injured. Several civilians were killed yesterday under fire", - he stated. Continue reading.

    RT Deutsch wrote:Yatsenyuk: We can help Greece with our apparent success story
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    Post  Akula971 Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:52 am

    whir wrote:

    Not true, one one of the first videos with locals talking among themselves they were claiming to have heard two consecutive explosions and also a local girl (DonCity) stated over MP.net that she heard two big explosions one after another.


    See If someone will say that the Buk fired TWICE then i don't believe it. The area would have been properly charred too. But there was nothing like that, CNN devoured the whole area looking for missile launch marks in the suspected 'launch area'. The 2 explosions can be from the 2 x R60s / Pythons that every Su 25 carries OR 1 R 60 followed by a cannon burst.

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    Post  Guest Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:53 am

    whir wrote:
    Sharij via Google Translate wrote:Порошенко: Разведка сообщает, что будет вторжение
    Poroshenko: "Intelligence reports that there will be an invasion"
    16/07/2015 21:02

    Poroshenko: "Intelligence reports that there will be an invasion"

    During the escalation of hostilities in the Donets Basin on the night of July 15, killing several civilians. In an interview with Christiane Amanpour on CNN today, July 16, said the president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko.

    "I have information from sources of intelligence that the invasion would be," - said Poroshenko.

    In addition, the President noted the escalation, which occurs in the area of the ATO is now. "Yesterday I lost 8 military and 16 military were injured. Several civilians were killed yesterday under fire", - he stated. Continue reading.

    RT Deutsch wrote:Yatsenyuk: We can help Greece with our apparent success story
    Thanks to your video at the bottom Whir, I just spit out all my tea and now I have to clean it all up. Thanks a lot Whir...

    Anyway, I would love to see Poroshenko's source (I do believe there is some accuracy in it). I sure hope he is right. Last time the NAF launched a major offensive involved a wind from the North that pushed the NAF all the way to the Azov Sea. Nobody took the rebels seriously then, the Ukrop leadership can't afford to make the same mistake again.
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    Post  Neutrality Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:10 pm

    The international investigation team just said that there are 2 versions to the downing of MH17. It was either done by a surface-to-air missile or air-to-air missile. Moreover, they refuse to blame a particular party right now. Have they said this before? I think they clearly state that they are investigating the jet fighter version. As October comes closer it starts getting interesting.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:19 pm

    I think the shootdown by Su-25 is unlikely... it simply is not well equipped to intercept high flying relatively fast aircraft.

    The effective envelope of BUK is for military targets... slow moving straight flying predictable targets could be hit further outside the envelope because they can be directed to a fixed intercept point... in comparison a manouvering target would have a constantly shifting intercept point which would waste energy.

    No group of rebels could use BUK effectively when it has been disabled. The location means it could not have been a Russian system because of its range limitations... the only other operator of the system in the region would the the Government forces... regarding smoke trails... the launched missile does not need to be anywhere near where the aircraft impacted... the glide range of a modern airliner is enormous and even with a lethal hit the crash location might be 20km from the interception point.

    The facts are that the CIA refuses to release its radar tapes from NATO radars... do you think if it proved the missile was launched from a rebel controlled area they would hold back the tapes?

    Do you think if they supported their view they would keep them secret?
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    Post  Khepesh Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:23 pm

    This video has emerged of showing the first on the scene at MH17 and is now being widely circulated. It is four minutes, but the original is 17 and contains material damaging to ukrops. Here is a transcript of the entire video, and while it is confusing, which is understandable, it can been seen in that part of the transcript after the four minute cut off in the video, that it is stated that an SU shot down the aircraft and that "we" then shot down the SU. Some of the chat is about looking for the remains of the SU, and that is the confusing part as no downed SU was found or subsequently claimed. It is possible that as wreckage was scattered over a wide area, and these guys are at only the main site, they may have thought that other wreckage, tail section for instance, was a second aircraft coming down. But no matter what, they are consistant that an SU shot shot MH17 and this while they did not yet even know what they were dealing with. The Autralian comment to this transcript is of course twisted as it is clear the guys are not "ransacking" the wreckage as if they were looting, but clearly trying to see what type of aircraft they were deaing with, what nationality etc. I am very surprised that this full transcript has been published, particulary by one of the seriously butthurt and irrational Russophobe parties. http://www.news.com.au/national/full-transcript-russian-backed-rebels-ransack-the-wreckage-of-mh17-in-shocking-17-minute-video/story-e6frfkp9-1227444629703


    PS. This does add the possibility that MH17 was taken down by an SU and that a BUK was fired as well, but at the SU which would have been very close to MH17. Complicated, isn't it.....

    Edit: That the guys say "we" shot down the SU does not mean that it was so, for if he thought an SU had been shot down, and only ukrops had any military aircraft flying, he would presume that "we" had taken it down while the reality would be that ukrops fired the BUK. Here, if it really is the case there was an SU, and we don't know 100%, there is the possibility of not only a two stage attack on MH 17, but even an attempt by ykrops to take down their own SU. Yeah, Tom Clancy, but truth is often stranger than fiction.


    Last edited by Khepesh on Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Neutrality Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:I think the shootdown by Su-25 is unlikely... it simply is not well equipped to intercept high flying relatively fast aircraft.

    The effective envelope of BUK is for military targets... slow moving straight flying predictable targets could be hit further outside the envelope because they can be directed to a fixed intercept point... in comparison a manouvering target would have a constantly shifting intercept point which would waste energy.

    No group of rebels could use BUK effectively when it has been disabled. The location means it could not have been a Russian system because of its range limitations... the only other operator of the system in the region would the the Government forces... regarding smoke trails... the launched missile does not need to be anywhere near where the aircraft impacted... the glide range of a modern airliner is enormous and even with a lethal hit the crash location might be 20km from the interception point.

    The facts are that the CIA refuses to release its radar tapes from NATO radars... do you think if it proved the missile was launched from a rebel controlled area they would hold back the tapes?

    Do you think if they supported their view they would keep them secret?

    I don't know what to think to be honest. The jet fighter version is tempting but also very easy to debunk. The BUK story is the most plausible but has several inconsistencies like the ones you mention: inexperienced people with incomplete hardware which leaves us to think that Russia, somehow, smuggled a whole BUK installation into the territory and deliberately took down the Boeing. That's just pure bullshit. How hard can it be to distinguish a civilian airliner from a military aircraft for those who are trained in this?

    Also, is it possible to disable a missile after its launch? Let's say that you fire a missile, realize that you're targetting the wrong thing and decide to remotely disable the missile. Or are BUK missiles fire-and-forget?
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:39 pm

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:Anyway, I would love to see Poroshenko's source (I do believe there is some accuracy in it). I sure hope he is right. Last time the NAF launched a major offensive involved a wind from the North that pushed the NAF all the way to the Azov Sea. Nobody took the rebels seriously then, the Ukrop leadership can't afford to make the same mistake again.

    I don't.
    It is better not to let the enemy know when you want to push him back.
    Last time the NAF tried to push the UAF back they did almost lose.
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    Post  Neutrality Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:04 pm

    Khepesh wrote:PS. This does add the possibility that MH17 was taken down by an SU and that a BUK was fired as well, but at the SU which would have been very close to MH17. Complicated, isn't it.....

    Edit: That the guys say "we" shot down the SU does not mean that it was so, for if he thought an SU had been shot down, and only ukrops had any military aircraft flying, he would presume that "we" had taken it down while the reality would be that ukrops fired the BUK. Here, if it really is the case there was an SU, and we don't know 100%, there is the possibility of not only a two stage attack on MH 17, but even an attempt by ykrops to take down their own SU. Yeah, Tom Clancy, but truth is often stranger than fiction.

    I really dislike getting into conspiracy theory territory. IF by some crazy chance this was indeed the idea/plan then I'm 100% positive this wouldn't be solely SBU's idea. If you catch my drift.

    Let's look at the more realistic picture regarding to what the investigators say and what we hear and see on the video. It's now very likely that a Sukhoi was indeed crawling very close to the airliner. We have both the MH17 investigation  team allowing the air-to-air missile as a scenario (read: fired from a jetfighter) and the seps on the video talking about it. Seems the Russian MOD's press release wasn't so bullshit after all and both Washington and Kiev will have to comment on this question eventually.
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    Post  Khepesh Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:14 pm

    It is strongly rebutted that Givi and many of his men are wounded. But nobody is yet rebutting that "Somali" is disbanded as Strelkov has said. I mentioned a few days back that Motorola and all of "Sparta" have evacuated their barracks and not been seen for many days.
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:21 pm

    Khepesh wrote:It is strongly rebutted that Givi and many of his men are wounded. But nobody is yet rebutting that "Somali" is disbanded as Strelkov has said. I mentioned a few days back that Motorola and all of "Sparta" have evacuated their barracks and not been seen for many days.
    Looks like the NAF are taking on the appearance of a 'normal' military where there are no 'hero brigades' in standard formations and the 'hero types' are concentrated in, as close to invisible as possible, special forces of various types.

    Much better in many ways, for example it means there is no loss of moral when a 'hero' dies.
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    Post  whir Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:The effective envelope of BUK is for military targets... slow moving straight flying predictable targets could be hit further outside the envelope because they can be directed to a fixed intercept point... in comparison a manouvering target would have a constantly shifting intercept point which would waste energy.
    BUK is a vectorial system, that's why in theory the missile could have come from any direction.

    GarryB wrote:The facts are that the CIA refuses to release its radar tapes from NATO radars... do you think if it proved the missile was launched from a rebel controlled area they would hold back the tapes?
    According to German media the AWACS over Romania recorded a signal belonging to S-125 in Ukraine that day.

    Neutrality wrote:I don't know what to think to be honest. The jet fighter version is tempting but also very easy to debunk. The BUK story is the most plausible but has several inconsistencies like the ones you mention: inexperienced people with incomplete hardware which leaves us to think that Russia, somehow, smuggled a whole BUK installation into the territory and deliberately took down the Boeing. That's just pure bullshit. How hard can it be to distinguish a civilian airliner from a military aircraft for those who are trained in this?
    The problem is that probably they weren't but the most disturbing part is that third world countries use airliners as live targets for training that is a point that escapes most analysis.

    Neutrality wrote:Also, is it possible to disable a missile after its launch? Let's say that you fire a missile, realize that you're targetting the wrong thing and decide to remotely disable the missile. Or are BUK missiles fire-and-forget?
    Supposedly the missiles have a self destruct mechanism that can be activated by ground crew after the launch but that it's overridden once the missile arms itself during terminal phase.

    Neutrality wrote:I really dislike getting into conspiracy theory territory. IF by some crazy chance this was indeed the idea/plan then I'm 100% positive this wouldn't be solely SBU's idea. If you catch my drift.
    Why not? You don't need to go on conspiracy theory territory to speculate with the possibility of someone trying to whac-a-mole by feeding wrong information on purpose, obviously you need the other side to bite on that info but is not that far fetched and is in the realm of the plausible.


    Last edited by whir on Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:31 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Looks like the NAF are taking on the appearance of a 'normal' military where there are no 'hero brigades' in standard formations and the 'hero types' are concentrated in, as close to invisible as possible, special forces of various types.

    Much better in many ways, for example it means there is no loss of moral when a 'hero' dies.

    It can't be a normal military because it is a "people's militia".
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    Post  gregoire Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:34 pm

    For some being confused I can help with a little insight.

    To confuse people after a false flag they use "pancaking", which means that have a lot of things, interests, businesses and facts happen at the same time.
    The trick is to call it a cheesecake while it is a pancake-cake. So everytime there are new facts someone, who can honestly be digging for the truth, comes out and says "well, what you're saying fits more with how a different sort of cake is made instead of a cheesecake". So before everybody, years and years later, understands it is not a cheesecake then they have to decipher what cake it was only to find it having many layers. One layer with strawberries, one with apples and raisins and so on. After a while all these people with these different findings begin to fight each other and nobody comes to the conclusion this might be something different and deliberate. A cake that is not a cake and yet a cake. See, then people start to call others conspiracy theorist because to make a cake you have to follow certain rules, right?

    They did this so often and are masters at it.

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