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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

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    whir


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    Post  whir Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:49 pm

    Mr Macros wrote:Helicopter Mukachevo 12.07.2015
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    Post  JohninMK Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:50 pm

    auslander wrote:A few tiny articles have appeared in west media, most saying the violence was at a sports club and saying that one side had on Right Sector insignia and that the 'violence' started from an 'arguement'. Last one I looked at, AP, said something to the effect of the orcs say it's VVP behind the unrest. Nothing like living in a parallel universe, is there.
    Nothing on the BBC
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    Post  Khepesh Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:09 pm

    As far as I have seen, not one comment or appearance from Poroshenko, Yatsenyuk or Turchynov about Mukachevo, they packing their bags...
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 15 9f4c99a9125c
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    Post  Ispan Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:15 pm

    Ok first little contribution here. Back in october, in another thread in another forum, Khepesh and I talked about the significance of photos of the graves of unknown Ukranian soldier and if the registry number shown in pictures meant that the Ukranian side had buried the remains of 6,500 unknown soldiers. Khepesh found out that it was indeed a correlative tally. A couple weeks ago another graveyard picture appeared and the total had climbed out to 7,500 by spring. There were also a leak to a German newspaper from German intelligence that the real casualties of the war in Ukraine were around 50,000, roughly broken down as follows:

    20,000 Ukranian troops dead, probably half that number Novorussian combatants, and 20,000 civilian dead.

    Such a proportion of unknown dead is staggering and despite that statistics tell me that those numbers are plausible I sometimes have misgivings and think I might have been exagerating casualties. The casualty reports of the constant skirmishing and shelling during "quiet" periods barely reach the 100 daily casualties minimum from my calculations, though that could only meant that most of the slaughter takes place during major battles.

    I have read numerous reports of Ukranian sources that they admit to hundreds of wounded when there is a major fight, and that everybody knows Ukranian dead are many times more than the junta reports. I know a Spaniard living in south Ukraine, that tells me he finds my data entirely believable, if he extrapolates from the number of wounded arriving at hospitals, and memorial servives held for the dead.

    Still, I would like some other confirmation about the high number of unknown dead, and I got it. I work in a multinational company, and per chance I ended up talking about the war in Ukraine to some of my coworkers. One of my workmates,s, young people in their 20s. One of them, a girl from Bulgaria, was rather pro Ukraine, and skeptical about my pro Russian stance but suddenly her attention perked up and she changed her mind when I talked about the number of unknown dead Ukranian soldiers. She has a girl friend from Ukraine and she told me that her friend had mentioned that: than in her town, young guys, boyfriends, former schoolmates, are called up to serve in the army, and a lot of them are not seen again and nothing is heard from them. They simply vanish. And that's in addition to those that are known to be killed and have a burial service.

    I know is a second hand testimony, but it fits with all the other pieces of the puzzle. Ukranian army has suffered huge losses in personnel and equipment, and is now mostly made up of reluctant conscripts with low morale, wich makes it beg the question of why the Novorussians haven't launched an offensive to liberate their territory, specially since the Minsk talks lead to nowhere and do not give the Donbass population anything of measurable value, not even peace.

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    Post  Karl Haushofer Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:28 pm

    auslander wrote:This mess will calm down when one side blinks and not before. We'll see how far our brave and resourceful soldier Yarosh pushes on what may become yet another coup, or how determined our sweet, kind and gentle reformer Poroshenko is to retain power. In the end I think Langley will make the decision as to who is swinging from the lamp post.

    On the other hand Kiev can not prosecute a two, or possibly three, front war, they can't even do anything besides kill civilians in Donbass. I am like a lot of you, the popcorn is ready, just got some more beer and I'll pay some attention to this as the evening wears on while I work.
    Yes, don't get your hopes up. Ukrainians are not the brightest ones out there but they are not complete idiots either. They will never start a full war against each other because they hate Russia more than they hate each other and they want to defeat Russia. And the West is always there to "guide them to right track" if they are getting too stupid for the Western tastes.
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    Post  Regular Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:35 pm

    whir wrote:
    Типичный Киев wrote:Our police have cares. Six police for 6 minutes per person to be detained.

    Алексей Карангин via YouTube comments wrote:The courage and consummate professionalism 4 !!!!! Kiev police seizure of spoons from the homeless deserves respect. Guys, how much you would have to, if he had a knife?
    Fuck sake I see those motherfuckers were trained in USA

    Not much have changed, but uniforms
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    Post  The Mule Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:39 pm

    Neutrality wrote:EDIT: So apparently it's just cheaper to have them registered on EU license plates.
    Is that common in Ukraine or were you ironic? Smile
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    Post  whir Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:47 pm

    Regular wrote:Fuck sake I see those motherfuckers were trained in USA
    Not much have changed, but uniforms
    By California Highway Patrol no less, on the first day they crashed a brand new Prius, someone misfired his gun and three other guns were lost according to reports coming from UA media.

    - - - -

    Факти ICTV wrote:The militants preparing to attack a Avdiyivka

    MeetKi wrote:Ukrainian ICTV channel for some mysterious reasons promulgated material that cardinally, not in harmony with the general propaganda in this country where any alternative opinion declared "high treason." ICTV posted an interview with a soldier of the Ukrainian army, in which he acknowledges that the positions Armed Forces of Ukraine in Avdeevka are in the residential sector and subjected to grave danger civilians.
    He said that in particular, the position of the battalion located midway between the five-story house and nine-story house.
    In addition, "the liberator" complained to reporters that, despite the fact that the positions of Armed Forces of Ukraine are hidden between the apartment buildings, the separatists cover their positions very accurately and at all work professionally. Soldiers also suspects that the fire separatists coordinate local residents. Ukrainian occupier also stressed that local residents overwhelmingly separatists, and hate the Ukrainian army. I do not hide that they consider her an occupying.
    "They work well as snipers and their intelligence, they see us, they know our every move. To them help the local residents. Local give them a clear position there, they taught them that ... they know exactly square ... They there most 80 percent - the separatists. They openly say: "We support our own, waiting for ours." We are for them there as conquerors. We came as some dill. They hate us there. There is very few of those pro-Ukrainian ... "- confessed Ukrainian Soldiers.
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    Post  Regular Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:50 pm

    flamming_python wrote:

    The video-shooters are shouting 'Hanba!'; which is Polish (and I presume Ukrainian too) for 'Shame!'

    So they are trying to shame the Ukrop Army who are going after the Pravyj Sektor criminals?
    Pravyj Sektor supporters? Or is it just that everyone there sympathises with Pravyj Sektor?

    I think ATO becomes not so fun when it comes to Your home. Doubt that they are PS supporters, but they clearly don't want to see army here.
    Funny enough, I support Praviy Sektor here. unshaven
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    Post  Khepesh Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:54 pm

    Large scale evacuation of Donetsk city begins due to bombardment and problems with maintaining essential services. The first batch of 500, of the most vulnerable, have left. This will be from the western districts, primarily Kuibishevsky which has suffered most.
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    Post  franco Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:01 pm

    whir wrote:
    Mr Macros wrote:Helicopter Mukachevo 12.07.2015

    Could be Yarosh, there are reports that he has helicoptered out there.
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:02 pm

    Khepesh wrote:Large scale evacuation of Donetsk city begins due to bombardment and problems with maintaining essential services. The first batch of 500, of the most vulnerable, have left. This will be from the western districts, primarily Kuibishevsky which has suffered most.

    That should have been done sooner.
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    Post  auslander Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:07 pm

    Ispan wrote:Ok first little contribution here. Back in october, in another thread in another forum, Khepesh and I talked about the significance of photos of the graves of unknown Ukranian soldier and if the registry number shown in pictures meant that the Ukranian side had buried the remains of 6,500 unknown soldiers.  Khepesh found out that it was indeed a correlative tally. A couple weeks ago another graveyard picture appeared and the total had climbed out to 7,500 by spring. There were also a leak to a German newspaper from German intelligence that the real casualties of the war in Ukraine were around 50,000, roughly broken down as follows:

    20,000 Ukranian troops dead, probably half that number Novorussian combatants, and 20,000 civilian dead.

    Such a proportion of unknown dead is staggering and despite that statistics tell me that those numbers are plausible I sometimes have misgivings and think I might have been exagerating casualties. The casualty reports of the constant skirmishing and shelling during "quiet" periods barely reach the 100 daily casualties minimum from my calculations, though that could only meant that most of the slaughter takes place during major battles.

    I have read numerous reports of Ukranian sources that they admit to hundreds of wounded when there is a major fight, and that everybody knows Ukranian dead are many times more than the junta reports. I know a Spaniard living in south Ukraine, that tells me he finds my data entirely believable, if he extrapolates from the number of wounded arriving at hospitals, and memorial servives held for the dead.

    Still, I would like some other confirmation about the high number of unknown dead, and I got it. I work in a multinational company, and per chance I ended up talking about the war in Ukraine to some of my coworkers. One of my workmates,s, young people in their 20s. One of them, a girl from Bulgaria, was rather pro Ukraine, and skeptical about my pro Russian stance but suddenly her attention perked up and she changed her mind when I talked about the number of unknown dead Ukranian soldiers. She has a girl friend from Ukraine and she told me that her friend had mentioned that: than in her town, young guys, boyfriends, former schoolmates, are called up to serve in the army, and  a lot of them are not seen again and nothing is heard from them. They simply vanish. And that's in addition to those that are known to be killed and have a burial service.

    I know is a second hand testimony, but it fits with all the other pieces of the puzzle. Ukranian army has suffered huge losses in personnel and equipment, and is now mostly made up of reluctant conscripts with low morale, wich makes it beg the question of why the Novorussians haven't launched an offensive to liberate their territory, specially since the Minsk talks lead to nowhere and do not give the Donbass population anything of measurable value, not even peace.

    Talking to some of our boys rotating down for R&R or treatment of wounds, their statements correspond to the general informations of orc casualties. After Debaltsyevo we were being told that the forests and glenns were full of uke bodies, let alone what could be seen from the roads and fields, many of them looted by the locals and quite possibly finished off by the locals. Of course a lot of weapons disappeared and I can't blame the locals one bit for either taking weapons and ammo from the uke dead or finishing off the wounded.

    We got the same informations late last summer during the cauldron battles along the Russian border, far more dead on the side of the ukes than was reported by either side and, like in Debaltsyevo early this year, before the orcs fell apart they would dump their dead in to the garbage pits they dug, some of quite substantial size, and just cover them over with dirt moved by heavy equipment. Once the panic set in the orcs generally abandoned their wounded as they ran. The abandonments were not universal, what few units managed to keep some cohesion did try to take their wounded with them but when their commanders abrogated the agreement for safe passage with only small arms and transport vehicles they were slaughtered quite literally.
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    Post  auslander Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:09 pm

    franco wrote:
    whir wrote:
    Mr Macros wrote:Helicopter Mukachevo 12.07.2015

    Could be Yarosh, there are reports that he has helicoptered out there.

    He better be careful in that rotary wing airframe, I think he's still in range of NAF.
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    Post  Khepesh Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:28 pm

    Ispan wrote:Ok first little contribution here. Back in october, in another thread in another forum, Khepesh and I talked about the significance of photos of the graves of unknown Ukranian soldier and if the registry number shown in pictures meant that the Ukranian side had buried the remains of 6,500 unknown soldiers.  Khepesh found out that it was indeed a correlative tally. A couple weeks ago another graveyard picture appeared and the total had climbed out to 7,500 by spring.

    And just for some context for anybody who does not know this, and apologies if everybody does. The register number on the grave markers of "unknown", refer to a DNA database and the database is numbered consecutively from 0 onwards. Ukrops supporters had tried to say that the numbers were cemetery plot numbers, for instance number 5678 would mean row 56 and grave 78, but the photos and video from the cemeteries show this cannot be so. ukrops supporters then tried to claim that the first two numbers refered to region and the second two were a running tally of the dead from that region. For those who do not know, while Ukraine is divided into Oblasts, it is also divided into smaller numbered regions, I think 54. So here ukrops supporters were shown to be flailing about trying to find excuses as the numbers go above well above 54. This information that the "unknown" registry number is a DNA database number came from several ukrops sources, including their medical system and TV. Back in October this was all still a mystery.
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    Post  franco Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:34 pm

    Khepesh wrote:
    Ispan wrote:Ok first little contribution here. Back in october, in another thread in another forum, Khepesh and I talked about the significance of photos of the graves of unknown Ukranian soldier and if the registry number shown in pictures meant that the Ukranian side had buried the remains of 6,500 unknown soldiers.  Khepesh found out that it was indeed a correlative tally. A couple weeks ago another graveyard picture appeared and the total had climbed out to 7,500 by spring.

    And just for some context for anybody who does not know this, and apologies if everybody does. The register number on the grave markers of "unknown", refer to a DNA database and the database is numbered consecutively from 0 onwards. Ukrops supporters had tried to say that the numbers were cemetery plot numbers, for instance number 5678 would mean row 56 and grave 78, but the photos and video from the cemeteries show this cannot be so. ukrops supporters then tried to claim that the first two numbers refered to region and the second two were a running tally of the dead from that region. For those who do not know, while Ukraine is divided into Oblasts, it is also divided into smaller numbered regions, I think 54. So here ukrops supporters were shown to be flailing about trying to find excuses as the numbers go above well above 54. This information that the "unknown" registry number is a DNA database number came from several ukrops sources, including their medical system and TV. Back in October this was all still a mystery.

    And since today DNA is easy to certify, this tends to lead credence to the fact the powers that be in Ukraine are sitting on actual casualties or don't want to have to pay out to the families or both.
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    Post  mack8 Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:45 pm

    Regarding US controlled media news about what is happening in Ukraine now, there are some articles, but few, and you have to look.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/12/ukraine-government-armed-standoff-right-sector-militia
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11734520/Ukrainian-forces-surround-nationalist-militia-following-deadly-attack-in-western-Ukraine.html
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/foreign-ministry-hints-at-a-nazi-revolt-in-ukraine/525455.html
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    Post  Khepesh Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:50 pm

    Interesting news and moves the situation further. Reported that Yarosh has ordered pravy sector forces involved in the ATO to withdraw from Donbass and move to Western Ukraine http://112.ua/obshchestvo/boycy-pravogo-sektora-po-prikazu-yarosha-pokinuli-pozicii-v-zone-ato-na-donbasse-ps-244335.html Also reported, and not all this is in the link, that pravy sektor has called on Ukranian Army to essentially mutiny and stop taking orders from Poroshenko. It would be good if this was all true or became true, but seems to much a good dream to be true. I suspect that tho it will attract some attention they do not want, Kiev will soon enough show pravy sektor the limits of what they can get away with. If this continues and pravy sektor continue to control the news and debate, then Poroshenko is fucked, surely.
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    Post  Rodinazombie Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:01 pm

    ^^^^^

    I really cant see it going that far just yet, i think yarosh will be getting a phonecall from the US ambassador before long and normality will resume.

    Things are moving in the right direction though,this is definitely a sign of things to come.

    I say good, let the 'ATO' come home to western ukraine, let them feel what donbass has been going through over the past year.
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    Post  Godric Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:07 pm

    Khepesh wrote:Interesting news and moves the situation further. Reported that Yarosh has ordered pravy sector forces involved in the ATO to withdraw from Donbass and move to Western Ukraine http://112.ua/obshchestvo/boycy-pravogo-sektora-po-prikazu-yarosha-pokinuli-pozicii-v-zone-ato-na-donbasse-ps-244335.html Also reported, and not all this is in the link, that pravy sektor has called on Ukranian Army to essentially mutiny and stop taking orders from Poroshenko. It would be good if this was all true or became true, but seems to much a good dream to be true. I suspect that tho it will attract some attention they do not want, Kiev will soon enough show pravy sektor the limits of what they can get away with. If this continues and pravy sektor continue to control the news and debate, then Poroshenko is fucked, surely.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 15 Hands-Fingers-Crossed


    I stick to my original prophecy of Ukraine breaking into 3 separate countries the extreme western Ukraine (Galicia) , Central Ukraine (Ukraine) and South Eastern Ukraine (NovoRossiya)
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    Post  Khepesh Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:09 pm

    Some further news, and this is all from what pravy sektor themselves are saying. The two front battalions, "Azov" and "Donbass" are said to withdraw and under radio silence, and a threat issued that pravy sektor will deploy the reserves battalions, about 18 or 19, to wherever they are needed. I would presume that these reserve battalions, if that many really exist, will be total useless scum.

    I don't even want to repeat anything about this that appears on the Novorossiya supporting networks other than to say it is euphoric, and perhaps far too much so and there may be a headache tomorrow, but this is the moment, lets enjoy, cheer, wave the sabre and charge while the sun shines The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 15 4290d2ac7d79
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    Post  JohninMK Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:23 pm

    Khepesh wrote:Some further news, and this is all from what pravy sektor themselves are saying. The two front battalions, "Azov" and "Donbass" are said to withdraw and under radio silence, and a threat issued that pravy sektor will deploy the reserves battalions, about 18 or 19, to wherever they are needed. I would presume that these reserve battalions, if that many really exist, will be total useless scum.

    I don't even want to repeat anything about this that appears on the Novorossiya supporting networks other than to say it is euphoric, and perhaps far too much so and there may be a headache tomorrow, but this is the moment, lets enjoy, cheer, wave the sabre and charge while the sun shines The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 15 4290d2ac7d79
    Won't the logistics be impossible? From east to west is a long way and they will need transports, food and fuel, unless they 'requisition' it as they travel.

    The reserve battalions are likely to leave a trail of devastation as well.
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    Post  JohninMK Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:28 pm

    Meanwhile, in the financial war a past voice pipes up, as if just to cheer Kiev up at this moment of stress

    Former Ukrainian Prime Minister Mykola Azarov says that authorities in Kiev are driving the country into the depths of economic depression, while brainwashing ordinary Ukrainians into believing that their political predecessors and 'Russian aggression' are to blame for their troubles. In a comment posted Saturday on his Facebook page, Azarov stated that "the Kiev regime is brainwashing Ukrainians using several myths. Let's take a look at a couple of them: [The first is that] the economy is collapsing, and the people are worse off because Russia is an aggressor and there is a war going on."

    The second myth, according to the former prime minister, is that "'our predecessors stole everything.' However, as the folk saying goes, 'he who shouts 'get the thief!' the loudest is a thief himself', and so it is in this case. The economic results of the first half of 2015 have been compiled. Raw statistics show that the country's exports have fallen by 40 percent (!) compared with the first half of 2013, in quantitative terms by $12 billion. That is, in one year, exports have fallen by approximately $25 billion."

    With these figures in mind, Azarov poses a simple question: "Who has reduced the inflow of exchange into the country? The old government, Russia, or [current Prime Minister] Yatsenyuk?"

    The former prime minister follows on with a series of worrying questions: "What will happen to the incomes of our people? With about the exchange rate? If exports continue to fall at the current rate, what will happen to our export-oriented economy? The regime in Kiev, instead of fixing the economy, is running around the world with its hand outstretched, begging for loans, while the country's enterprises have stopped. And who will repay the loans? How much long can the people believe in these myths?"

    The poverty rate in Ukraine is expected to reach 32 percent in 2015, Regnum News Agency reported.

    The PM leaves a postscript, referring to the lost markets in Russia and the other countries of the Eurasian economic space. He notes that "losing export markets is easy, but regaining them can be impossible. Competitors occupy them quickly and sometimes, forever."

    Ukraine is presently in the depths of a deep political and economic crisis. Hit by a decline in trade with neighboring Russia, civil war in the country's east, and financial panic brought on by the collapse of the country's currency, the Ukrainian economy is presently teetering on the verge of default. Earlier this month, the country's National Bank announced that the country's debt will reach 95 percent of GDP this year, with debt presently standing at roughly $70 billion, of which some $40 billion is owed to international lenders.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150712/1024530586.html#ixzz3fhPFcbcN
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    Post  Khepesh Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:42 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:Some further news, and this is all from what pravy sektor themselves are saying. The two front battalions, "Azov" and "Donbass" are said to withdraw and under radio silence, and a threat issued that pravy sektor will deploy the reserves battalions, about 18 or 19, to wherever they are needed. I would presume that these reserve battalions, if that many really exist, will be total useless scum.

    I don't even want to repeat anything about this that appears on the Novorossiya supporting networks other than to say it is euphoric, and perhaps far too much so and there may be a headache tomorrow, but this is the moment, lets enjoy, cheer, wave the sabre and charge while the sun shines The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 15 4290d2ac7d79
    Won't the logistics be impossible? From east to west is a long way and they will need transports, food and fuel, unless they 'requisition' it as they travel.

    The reserve battalions are likely to leave a trail of devastation as well.
    1500 km. I am very skeptical of what they are saying, particulary about any possibility of "Azov" and "Donbass" withdrawing from ATO, but it is what they say, so let them while we eat popcorn
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    Karl Haushofer


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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 15 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Karl Haushofer Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:48 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote:^^^^^

    I really cant see it going that far just yet, i think yarosh will be getting a phonecall from the US ambassador before long and normality will resume.

    Things are moving in the right direction though,this is definitely a sign of things to come.

    I say good, let the 'ATO' come home to western ukraine, let them feel what donbass has been going through over the past year.
    ????

    Do you think the Right Sector will bombard and shell Lvov? Why would it do so?

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