The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

Neutrality wrote:

Khepesh wrote:Residents of central and southern Donetsk report more and more of loud bombardment, and that VSN are on the streets. Also report of ukrops infantry assault into Alexandrovka.

Edit: Lenininsky report actual bombardment, not just the sound. This is just south of the city center.

There is not any official confirmation of any of this yet, but the photo I posted originated from Pavel Gubarev.

I'm going to go ahead and state a crazy thought. I think the NAF are pulling back their manpower and armor from the frontlines not just to "adhere to the Minsk agreements" but to simply bait the VSU into attacking villages around Donetsk and Donetsk itself. That Ukrop infantry assault into Alexandrovka (if indeed true) basically suggests this is the strategy. This gives the NAF 2 advantages: Clearly showing that Kiev is the one who doesn't give a flying fuck about Minsk-II (political advantage) and forcing the VSU out of their fortified positions (strategic advantage).

Molon labe Ukrops.

I should have a link to a live vid of the shelling of Donetsk City Proper at dusk in a few mikes.

sepheronx wrote:If NAF does not fight back after these events, then I give up any full supporting of them.  They have proved to be incompetent and they are allowing their own people to die.  Eventually, the people will see this, the unwillingness of self defence, and will turn on NAF and be willing to be ruled under Kiev's authorities.  The ones who did fight back will end up facing persecution and the rest will flee.

That could be the plan of the Kremlin, letting the Novorussians take the blame for the slow fall of Donbass in order to save face, while pretending that it did its part.

sepheronx wrote:If NAF does not fight back after these events, then I give up any full supporting of them.  They have proved to be incompetent and they are allowing their own people to die.  Eventually, the people will see this, the unwillingness of self defence, and will turn on NAF and be willing to be ruled under Kiev's authorities (for peace and security of not going to die from artillery fire).  The ones who did fight back will end up facing persecution and the rest will flee.  Russia will in the end look like fools and traitors.

NAF is f***ed.  They are getting ass kicked right now and losing territory all in the name of good will.  We know specifically once they pull back, PUkes will move in and we will be back to what we are now, but with PUkes shelling even further in Donetsk/Lugansk and nothing done.

Yeah, they will just love that. The very people that have killed several thousand of their relatives. Stop the panick already and wait to see what happens.

sepheronx wrote:If NAF does not fight back after these events, then I give up any full supporting of them.  They have proved to be incompetent and they are allowing their own people to die.  Eventually, the people will see this, the unwillingness of self defence, and will turn on NAF and be willing to be ruled under Kiev's authorities.  The ones who did fight back will end up facing persecution and the rest will flee.

I'm glad more people start to see the light. I have been down of Russia and the political leadership of the DPR/LPR since the second Minsk meeting.

There are people who will defend the Kremlin even after the DPR/LPR fall though. They will probably say that Russia did the right thing for not risking WW3.

Anyway, this will be a dangerous precedent for Russia too. There has been only one occasion when an anti-Russian side has won a war in the FSU: The First Chechen war. All the other wars in the FSU have ended up with the pro-Russian side winning:
- Transnistria
- Armenia-Azerbaijan war.
- Abkhazia
- The Second Chechen War
- South Ossetia (both times in 1992 and 2008)
- Crimea (no real war happened but it was a very short armed conflict anyway)

Up until now it has been widely recognized that Russia will not allow a pro-Russian side to lose an armed conflict in the FSU. This will be changed soon. What will the consequences be for Russia?

sepheronx wrote:If NAF does not fight back after these events, then I give up any full supporting of them.  They have proved to be incompetent and they are allowing their own people to die.  Eventually, the people will see this, the unwillingness of self defence, and will turn on NAF and be willing to be ruled under Kiev's authorities (for peace and security of not going to die from artillery fire).  The ones who did fight back will end up facing persecution and the rest will flee.  Russia will in the end look like fools and traitors.

NAF is f***ed.  They are getting ass kicked right now and losing territory all in the name of good will.  We know specifically once they pull back, PUkes will move in and we will be back to what we are now, but with PUkes shelling even further in Donetsk/Lugansk and nothing done.

Thats just what i fear.

Its clear there is a plan of some sorts, but people will not put up with a plan for tomorrow when people are dying today for long. Its only a few weeks ago people were on the streets in donetsk demanding naf to go on the offensive to stop the bombardments. Zaharchenko placated them, yet here we are a short time later and the ukies are still being allowed to do it.

Again, i do not doubt there is a plan, a reasoning behind this latest strategy of looking meak and full of goodwill, but none of that is any good if the people you are protecting lose faith in you because you are failing to protect them. I just hope that moscow/NAF know how far they can let it go before bringing the hammer down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeSFH4X1S4s

NAF says any violation of Minsk by Maidan's 70,000 troops will be punished.

Neutrality wrote:

sepheronx wrote:If NAF does not fight back after these events, then I give up any full supporting of them.  They have proved to be incompetent and they are allowing their own people to die.  Eventually, the people will see this, the unwillingness of self defence, and will turn on NAF and be willing to be ruled under Kiev's authorities (for peace and security of not going to die from artillery fire).  The ones who did fight back will end up facing persecution and the rest will flee.  Russia will in the end look like fools and traitors.

NAF is f***ed.  They are getting ass kicked right now and losing territory all in the name of good will.  We know specifically once they pull back, PUkes will move in and we will be back to what we are now, but with PUkes shelling even further in Donetsk/Lugansk and nothing done.

Yeah, they will just love that. The very people that have killed several thousand of their relatives. Stop the panick already and wait to see what happens.

You think they will waltz in and ethnic cleanse? Oh no, it is much easier for them to start pushing the brainwashing even more. At the expense though, people will take it as it is a hell of a lot better than being worried that an artillery shell will land on you, while your so called compatriots that are supposed to be defending you, are hiding away and moving troops around but doing squat. I know I would. I think at this point, NAF has given up and people have fled, hence why no one has heard from Givi or Motorolla or the like. Now the bombardments have increased and gone even further into Donetsk, and they have done nothing.

Sorry, you cannot wait on these things. One has to act or you wont have people left. Especially people who will support you. Because lets face it, sitting back and doing nothing for "good will", isn't going to protect you from a 100mm shell landing on you, or a 7.62 round in the head.

Flagship Victory wrote:NAF says any violation of Minsk by Maidan's 70,000 troops will be punished.

They why are they pulling back their heavy weaponry? Is he an idiot?

Calm down, gentlemen, calm down. Rome was not built in a day nor will be the final victory of Novorossiya be built in a day. While each and every wounding and death of our civilians and our soldiers breaks our hearts, one must put one's faith and trust in those who know far more than we know.

Now I am realizing that Novorussia did die with Aleksey Mozgovoy.

auslander wrote:Calm down, gentlemen, calm down. Rome was not built in a day nor will be the final victory of Novorossiya be built in a day. While each and every wounding and death of our civilians and our soldiers breaks our hearts, one must put one's faith and trust in those who know far more than we know.

Just answer my question: What is the benefit of pulling back your heavy weaponry in the current situation? How does it help forward the "final victory" for the NAF?

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:Now I am realizing that Novorussia did die with Aleksey Mozgovoy.

Who was most likely killed by the Kremlin

sepheronx wrote:

Neutrality wrote:

sepheronx wrote:If NAF does not fight back after these events, then I give up any full supporting of them.  They have proved to be incompetent and they are allowing their own people to die.  Eventually, the people will see this, the unwillingness of self defence, and will turn on NAF and be willing to be ruled under Kiev's authorities (for peace and security of not going to die from artillery fire).  The ones who did fight back will end up facing persecution and the rest will flee.  Russia will in the end look like fools and traitors.

NAF is f***ed.  They are getting ass kicked right now and losing territory all in the name of good will.  We know specifically once they pull back, PUkes will move in and we will be back to what we are now, but with PUkes shelling even further in Donetsk/Lugansk and nothing done.

Yeah, they will just love that. The very people that have killed several thousand of their relatives. Stop the panick already and wait to see what happens.

You think they will waltz in and ethnic cleanse?  Oh no, it is much easier for them to start pushing the brainwashing even more.  At the expense though, people will take it as it is a hell of a lot better than being worried that an artillery shell will land on you, while your so called compatriots that are supposed to be defending you, are hiding away and moving troops around but doing squat.  I know I would.  I think at this point, NAF has given up and people have fled, hence why no one has heard from Givi or Motorolla or the like.  Now the bombardments have increased and gone even further into Donetsk, and they have done nothing.

Sorry, you cannot wait on these things.  One has to act or you wont have people left.  Especially people who will support you.  Because lets face it, sitting back and doing nothing for "good will", isn't going to protect you from a 100mm shell landing on you, or a 7.62 round in the head.

Who exactly fled? Why do people immediately assume that Givi and Motorola fled or something terrible has happened to them because there's silence from them? Seriously, you are worse than the Western MSM a few months back. Creating all sorts of conspiracies about Putin and why he hadn't appeared in public for over a week.

Karl Haushofer wrote:

auslander wrote:Calm down, gentlemen, calm down. Rome was not built in a day nor will be the final victory of Novorossiya be built in a day. While each and every wounding and death of our civilians and our soldiers breaks our hearts, one must put one's faith and trust in those who know far more than we know.

Just answer my question: What is the benefit of pulling back your heavy weaponry in the current situation? How does it help forward the "final victory" for the NAF?

He blocked you I think, so he wont read what you said.

Rodinazombie wrote:https://vk.com/wall-57424472_67204

Few pics from the latest shelling

I feel for the people of Donetsk. This is not a city to live. Daily shelling by fascists. The city is sacrificed so Putin can keep selling natural gas to the EU. Capitalism these days. What can you do about it? Money tramps people.

Flagship Victory wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:https://vk.com/wall-57424472_67204

Few pics from the latest shelling

I feel for the people of Donetsk. This is not a city to live. Daily shelling by fascists. The city is sacrificed so Putin can keep selling natural gas to the EU. Capitalism these days. What can you do about it?  Money tramps people.

Honestly.

Shut
The
Fuck
Up

Already.

Flagship Victory wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:https://vk.com/wall-57424472_67204

Few pics from the latest shelling

I feel for the people of Donetsk. This is not a city to live. Daily shelling by fascists. The city is sacrificed so Putin can keep selling natural gas to the EU. Capitalism these days. What can you do about it?  Money tramps people.

I wrote over a month ago here that they should surrender. Better to live like citizens of Slovyansk and Kharkov than this.

auslander wrote:Calm down, gentlemen, calm down. Rome was not built in a day nor will be the final victory of Novorossiya be built in a day. While each and every wounding and death of our civilians and our soldiers breaks our hearts, one must put one's faith and trust in those who know far more than we know.

Alright, I'll take a stab at this on what Karl is asking:

What is the strategic advantage is it to pull back heavy weaponry from the frontlines when you have 70,000 confirmed PUkes at your border, and are committing artillery strikes daily, while nothing has been done about it?  As well, my question is, how will they explain this to their people when not long ago, they protested demanding the NAF to do something about the artillery strikes, and not only did they NOT stop it, it now has expanded further into Donetsk?

I am afraid Auslander, your sons as you say, are fighting for nothing and will die for nothing if they continue to do nothing.  Because let us face it, things are quite grim, and it is clear as day to anyone with the ability to read, will know that PUkes will move further into Donetsk and there will be no peep from western world or OSCE or anything of the sort.  In that case, it is like a self fulfilling prophecy of proving that PUkes will do what they want, and in the end, many will die and territory will be lost.

Sorry, I have no faith anymore as the artillery strikes have been going on for so long, and pulling out men and equipment, to show good will, to the people who are artillery striking and increasing the strikes into your territory, is probably one of the most stupid tactics.

But whatever.  Some people do follow blindly I suppose.

Neutrality wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:https://vk.com/wall-57424472_67204

Few pics from the latest shelling

I feel for the people of Donetsk. This is not a city to live. Daily shelling by fascists. The city is sacrificed so Putin can keep selling natural gas to the EU. Capitalism these days. What can you do about it?  Money tramps people.

Honestly.

Shut
The
Fuck
Up

Already.

He is right you know. IF you know otherwise, please post it. Because here are the facts so far:

-Donetsk is getting shelled even more
-PUkes are moving closer, and increasing troops
-NAF is being mentally retarded by pulling troops back
-Have not done a thing to stop the artillery strikes even though people demanded it
-Innocent civilians are dying by quite a bit
-Givi and Motorolla vanished
-Minister of taxation in Donetsk arrested in Russia
-No demands from Russian government regarding about the attacks on Novorussia from artillery fire

I have to say, I think he is correct.

sepheronx wrote:

Neutrality wrote:

sepheronx wrote:If NAF does not fight back after these events, then I give up any full supporting of them.  They have proved to be incompetent and they are allowing their own people to die.  Eventually, the people will see this, the unwillingness of self defence, and will turn on NAF and be willing to be ruled under Kiev's authorities (for peace and security of not going to die from artillery fire).  The ones who did fight back will end up facing persecution and the rest will flee.  Russia will in the end look like fools and traitors.

NAF is f***ed.  They are getting ass kicked right now and losing territory all in the name of good will.  We know specifically once they pull back, PUkes will move in and we will be back to what we are now, but with PUkes shelling even further in Donetsk/Lugansk and nothing done.

Yeah, they will just love that. The very people that have killed several thousand of their relatives. Stop the panick already and wait to see what happens.

You think they will waltz in and ethnic cleanse?  Oh no, it is much easier for them to start pushing the brainwashing even more.  At the expense though, people will take it as it is a hell of a lot better than being worried that an artillery shell will land on you, while your so called compatriots that are supposed to be defending you, are hiding away and moving troops around but doing squat.  I know I would.  I think at this point, NAF has given up and people have fled, hence why no one has heard from Givi or Motorolla or the like.  Now the bombardments have increased and gone even further into Donetsk, and they have done nothing.

Sorry, you cannot wait on these things.  One has to act or you wont have people left.  Especially people who will support you.  Because lets face it, sitting back and doing nothing for "good will", isn't going to protect you from a 100mm shell landing on you, or a 7.62 round in the head.

Ya know, son, you can probably count the times I've use off color language on this forum on the fingers of one hand and have a couple digits left over. However, me being a senior NCO when I was serving, and the ONLY reason I'm not up there now is I'm too busted up and old to serve in the front lines with the boys much as I want to, here's a little something for you in language you may understand.

There's not a thing preventing you from leaving Canukland and highing your lazy tail to Novorissya and joining NAF to fight. Either quit your complaining or get your nether regions in gear and go fight! If you're so gung ho to fight then go there and fight!

Methinks I'm going to have to clean this post up in a few mikes but I'm in no mood to put up with keyboard commandos this evening.

Neutrality wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Neutrality wrote:

sepheronx wrote:If NAF does not fight back after these events, then I give up any full supporting of them.  They have proved to be incompetent and they are allowing their own people to die.  Eventually, the people will see this, the unwillingness of self defence, and will turn on NAF and be willing to be ruled under Kiev's authorities (for peace and security of not going to die from artillery fire).  The ones who did fight back will end up facing persecution and the rest will flee.  Russia will in the end look like fools and traitors.

NAF is f***ed.  They are getting ass kicked right now and losing territory all in the name of good will.  We know specifically once they pull back, PUkes will move in and we will be back to what we are now, but with PUkes shelling even further in Donetsk/Lugansk and nothing done.

Yeah, they will just love that. The very people that have killed several thousand of their relatives. Stop the panick already and wait to see what happens.

You think they will waltz in and ethnic cleanse?  Oh no, it is much easier for them to start pushing the brainwashing even more.  At the expense though, people will take it as it is a hell of a lot better than being worried that an artillery shell will land on you, while your so called compatriots that are supposed to be defending you, are hiding away and moving troops around but doing squat.  I know I would.  I think at this point, NAF has given up and people have fled, hence why no one has heard from Givi or Motorolla or the like.  Now the bombardments have increased and gone even further into Donetsk, and they have done nothing.

Sorry, you cannot wait on these things.  One has to act or you wont have people left.  Especially people who will support you.  Because lets face it, sitting back and doing nothing for "good will", isn't going to protect you from a 100mm shell landing on you, or a 7.62 round in the head.

Who exactly fled? Why do people immediately assume that Givi and Motorola fled or something terrible has happened to them because there's silence from them? Seriously, you are worse than the Western MSM a few months back. Creating all sorts of conspiracies about Putin and why he hadn't appeared in public for over a week.

Because it is a very bad time to be silent. Putin needed some free time and the situation was not critical, hence it was okay.
Not in this case.
And naturally, we are trying to make sense of it because the official narrative is not convincing at all.

auslander wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Neutrality wrote:

sepheronx wrote:If NAF does not fight back after these events, then I give up any full supporting of them.  They have proved to be incompetent and they are allowing their own people to die.  Eventually, the people will see this, the unwillingness of self defence, and will turn on NAF and be willing to be ruled under Kiev's authorities (for peace and security of not going to die from artillery fire).  The ones who did fight back will end up facing persecution and the rest will flee.  Russia will in the end look like fools and traitors.

NAF is f***ed.  They are getting ass kicked right now and losing territory all in the name of good will.  We know specifically once they pull back, PUkes will move in and we will be back to what we are now, but with PUkes shelling even further in Donetsk/Lugansk and nothing done.

Yeah, they will just love that. The very people that have killed several thousand of their relatives. Stop the panick already and wait to see what happens.

You think they will waltz in and ethnic cleanse?  Oh no, it is much easier for them to start pushing the brainwashing even more.  At the expense though, people will take it as it is a hell of a lot better than being worried that an artillery shell will land on you, while your so called compatriots that are supposed to be defending you, are hiding away and moving troops around but doing squat.  I know I would.  I think at this point, NAF has given up and people have fled, hence why no one has heard from Givi or Motorolla or the like.  Now the bombardments have increased and gone even further into Donetsk, and they have done nothing.

Sorry, you cannot wait on these things.  One has to act or you wont have people left.  Especially people who will support you.  Because lets face it, sitting back and doing nothing for "good will", isn't going to protect you from a 100mm shell landing on you, or a 7.62 round in the head.

Ya know, son, you can probably count the times I've use off color language on this forum on the fingers of one hand and have a couple digits left over. However, me being a senior NCO when I was serving, and the ONLY reason I'm not up there now is I'm too busted up and old to serve in the front lines with the boys much as I want to, here's a little something for you in language you may understand.

There's not a fucking thing preventing you from fucking leaving Canukland and highing your lazy ass to Novorissya and joining NAF to fight. Either quit your fucking bitching or get your fucking ass in gear and go fight! If you're so fucking gung ho to fight then fucking go there and fucking fight!

Methinks I'm going to have to clean this post up in a few mikes but I'm in no mood to put up with keyboard commandos this evening.

Well, for one, I have a family. If not, I would have left to join. But let us face the realities here bub. As you are now probably noticing the same things from my post, but are not wanting to admit it (as evident from your hostile post) gives clear indication that things are really bad and NAF has given up. Because, pray tell, what is the tactical advantage of pulling troops away, letting your civies get killed by artillery, and saying they dont want war while being shot at? Have to say, even if I did go over there, I wouldn't have stood for that crap and would have left anyway.

sepheronx wrote:
He is right you know.  IF you know otherwise, please post it.  Because here are the facts so far:

-Donetsk is getting shelled even more
-PUkes are moving closer, and increasing troops
-NAF is being mentally retarded by pulling troops back
-Have not done a thing to stop the artillery strikes even though people demanded it
-Innocent civilians are dying by quite a bit
-Givi and Motorolla vanished
-Minister of taxation in Donetsk arrested in Russia
-No demands from Russian government regarding about the attacks on Novorussia from artillery fire

I have to say, I think he is correct.

I'll report what I said earlier:

I'm going to go ahead and state a crazy thought. I think the NAF are pulling back their manpower and armor from the frontlines not just to "adhere to the Minsk agreements" but to simply bait the VSU into attacking villages around Donetsk and Donetsk itself. That Ukrop infantry assault into Alexandrovka (if indeed true) basically suggests this is the strategy. This gives the NAF 2 advantages: Clearly showing that Kiev is the one who doesn't give a flying fuck about Minsk-II (political advantage) and forcing the VSU out of their fortified positions (strategic advantage).

Molon labe Ukrops.

auslander wrote:Calm down, gentlemen, calm down. Rome was not built in a day nor will be the final victory of Novorossiya be built in a day. While each and every wounding and death of our civilians and our soldiers breaks our hearts, one must put one's faith and trust in those who know far more than we know.

Well said Auslander, have my +1.

You have been pretty accurate (at least more so than the rest of us) in predicting how these situations will play out. Whatcha thinking this time?

Oh, and any interesting developments occuring 'round your parts in regard to the clusterfvck in Banderistan?