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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

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    Rodinazombie

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    Post  Rodinazombie Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:52 pm

    ^^

    Im waiting with bated breath to see which idiot will be first to claim that russian soldiers are in western ukraine :p
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:04 pm

    Truth about situation in Ukraine
    59 mins · Edited ·

    14th July 2015, city Kiev, fascist state Ukraine

    Another independent journalist was killed by puppet regime in Ukraine.

    "Yesterday, about 2 o'clock in the morning near one of the houses of Kiev was shot dead freelance journalist - Margarita Valenko, who was returning home from the office.

    Among the media she was a little-known, well, in spite of this, she collaborated with the Kiev branch of the IMG "Russia Today" [RIA-Novosti media group]. It is known that the city prosecutor's office in Kiev start checking into the matter, with the subsequent criminal case under CC article "Murder."

    Before cooperation with the News Agency of Margarita worked 4 years in one of the city's Internet media in Kiev, and in January 2014 due to political differences over the situation in the country has left this media.

    According to relatives of the deceased, it became known that the last 4 months she often received threats from radicals [fascists] and other people...
    ..Margarita Valenko left two children, she was only 26 years old. The life of a young journalist was stopped by 3 bullets of killer ...

    Ukrainian presstitutes keep silent .."

    Source, Ukrainian independent journalist Yuriy Kot.
    https://www.facebook.com/Georgi.kot/photos/a.561005657370017.1073741828.560850187385564/679617615508820/?type=1&theater

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    Post  Karl Haushofer Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:12 pm

    auslander wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:The situation in Donetsk is very complicated. Deputy minister of taxes has been arrested in Rostov. DNR Ministry of Defence is abolished and command of all corps transferred to Republican Guard. Lots of wild rumors but no hard facts about why this is all happening. I would say that with the chaos in Ukraine with pravy sektor, then if major changes in DNR needed making, then now seems good as people's attention is split. The two assasination attempts are odd and don't fit with a reorganisation, so maybe coincidence, but it does create this wave of rumor. I'm not speculating as it is too early. All I will say is that tho it looks like a mess, I have confidence in the future and that things will turn out well.

    I don't believe in coincidence but I do find the assassination attempts both troubling and intriguing. On the other hand with everyone looking at Zakarpatya now is the time to do some much needed housecleaning and reorganization and apparently it is happening.
    So you approve doing this "reorganization" with assassinations???

    How would this make DPR better than Kiev?
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    Post  Cowboy's daughter Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:13 pm

    Ivan Katchanovski
    32 mins ·
    Facebook

    An advance version of my new article, entitled "Terrorists or national heroes? Politics and perceptions of the OUN and the UPA in Ukraine," for a special issue of Communist and Post-Communist Studies on the far right in Ukraine.

    This study analyzes controversies and public attitudes concerning the Bandera faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B), the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) and Stepan Bandera in Ukraine. The research question is: Which factors affect attitudes toward the OUN-B, the UPA and Bandera in contemporary Ukraine? This article employs comparative and regression analyses of surveys commissioned by the author and conducted by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology (KIIS) in 2009 and 2013 to determine the effects of regional and other factors on attitudes toward these organizations and the OUN-B leader. The study shows that regional factors and perceptions of these organizations' involvement in mass murder were the strongest predictors of the views concerning the OUN-B, the UPA and Bandera. Their public support is strongest in Galicia and weakest in the East and the South, in particular, in Donbas and Crimea, two major conflict areas since the “Euromaidan.”
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:15 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:
    auslander wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:The situation in Donetsk is very complicated. Deputy minister of taxes has been arrested in Rostov. DNR Ministry of Defence is abolished and command of all corps transferred to Republican Guard. Lots of wild rumors but no hard facts about why this is all happening. I would say that with the chaos in Ukraine with pravy sektor, then if major changes in DNR needed making, then now seems good as people's attention is split. The two assasination attempts are odd and don't fit with a reorganisation, so maybe coincidence, but it does create this wave of rumor. I'm not speculating as it is too early. All I will say is that tho it looks like a mess, I have confidence in the future and that things will turn out well.

    I don't believe in coincidence but I do find the assassination attempts both troubling and intriguing. On the other hand with everyone looking at Zakarpatya now is the time to do some much needed housecleaning and reorganization and apparently it is happening.
    So you approve doing this "reorganization" with assassinations???

    How would this make DPR better than Kiev?

    It does not. Donbass is returning to Ukraine.
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    Post  Neutrality Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:33 pm

    Hmm, watching this weekly talk-show "Voskresnij Vecher" with Solovyev. One of the guests made a very interesting comment about the situation in Mukachevo and I agree completely. According to him this is the next phase of the chaos in Ukraine. Right Sector's finances basically dried up so now they have to acquire businesses to finance their operations. Mukachevo is only the beginning of that. Kiev's next headache are the volunteer battalions which already have pledged their allegiance to RS (battalions like Azov, Aidar and Donbass). This also MIGHT explain why Yatsenyuk decided to support Right Sector's actions in Mukachevo. He realizes their power and that they are equally as powerful as Poroshenko's supporters so in case a powergrab, led by RS, happens. He'll be safe.


    Last edited by Neutrality on Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Karl Haushofer Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:35 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:
    auslander wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:The situation in Donetsk is very complicated. Deputy minister of taxes has been arrested in Rostov. DNR Ministry of Defence is abolished and command of all corps transferred to Republican Guard. Lots of wild rumors but no hard facts about why this is all happening. I would say that with the chaos in Ukraine with pravy sektor, then if major changes in DNR needed making, then now seems good as people's attention is split. The two assasination attempts are odd and don't fit with a reorganisation, so maybe coincidence, but it does create this wave of rumor. I'm not speculating as it is too early. All I will say is that tho it looks like a mess, I have confidence in the future and that things will turn out well.

    I don't believe in coincidence but I do find the assassination attempts both troubling and intriguing. On the other hand with everyone looking at Zakarpatya now is the time to do some much needed housecleaning and reorganization and apparently it is happening.
    So you approve doing this "reorganization" with assassinations???

    How would this make DPR better than Kiev?

    It does not. Donbass is returning to Ukraine.
    I think so too even though people like Saker have been saying that Putin will never let it happen. If Putin had any plans for Novorossiya (as a part of Russia or as a Russian protectorate) then it would make no sense to allow Ukraine to destroy its infrastructure like this.

    Maybe the "cunning plan" is to let Ukraine destroy Donbass, then hand it back to Ukraine and let Ukraine bankrupt itself even further by having to rebuild the whole place?
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    Post  Regular Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:37 pm

    Returning to Ukraine? What?
    No chance in hell.
    Maybe when all wounds will heal and years will pass, but people in eastern Ukraine is distancing themselves from Ukrainians as much as they can. Hatred gives birth to hatred so to speak.
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    Post  Karl Haushofer Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:41 pm

    Regular wrote:Returning to Ukraine? What?
    No chance in hell.
    Maybe when all wounds will heal and years will pass, but people in eastern Ukraine is distancing themselves from Ukrainians as much as they can. Hatred gives birth to hatred so to speak.

    Technically Donbass is Ukrainian right now since nobody, not even Russia, has recognized it. The big question is that will Kiev gain military control of Donbass.

    If that happens then Donbass will be like Kharkov is now, but with destroyed infrastructure and hundreds of thousands of displaced and killed people.

    If it does not happen the war will drag along for years, and eventually the whole place will be destroyed anyway. Novorossiya has not enough military strength to drive Kiev out of shelling distance of Donetsk and Gorlovka. Those who disagree should explain that if the NAF had enough military strength for this purpose why is it not using it right now while cities are being bombarded daily? What an earth are they waiting for?
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    Post  Flagship Victory Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:44 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:Technically Donbass is Ukrainian right now since nobody, not even Russia, has recognized it. The big question is that will Kiev gain military control of Donbass.

    If that happens then Donbass will be like Kharkov is now, but with destroyed infrastructure and hundreds of thousands of displaced and killed people.

    If it does not happen the war will drag along for years, and eventually the whole place will be destroyed anyway. Novorossiya has not enough military strength to drive Kiev out of shelling distance of Donetsk and Gorlovka. Those who disagree should explain that if the NAF had enough military strength for this purpose why is it not using it right now while cities are being bombarded daily? What an earth are they waiting for?

    Putin won't be president forever. Wink
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    Post  Karl Haushofer Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:46 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    Putin won't be president forever. Wink
    Putin might go but the policy will likely not change much. And this is a generally a good thing (since Putin's time has been good for Russia) but for Donbass it means that the victory is not at sight.
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:46 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:I think so too even though people like Saker have been saying that Putin will never let it happen. If Putin had any plans for Novorossiya (as a part of Russia or as a Russian protectorate) then it would make no sense to allow Ukraine to destroy its infrastructure like this.

    Maybe the "cunning plan" is to let Ukraine destroy Donbass, then hand it back to Ukraine and let Ukraine bankrupt itself even further by having to rebuild the whole place?

    Putin and the Kremlin elite care only about maintenance of power, getting respect and making money, not Russians in Russia's near abroad.

    Regular wrote:Returning to Ukraine? What?
    No chance in hell.
    Maybe when all wounds will heal and years will pass, but people in eastern Ukraine is distancing themselves from Ukrainians as much as they can. Hatred gives birth to hatred so to speak.

    They can try to migrate to Russia or elsewhere.
    It was agreed that Donbass is part of Ukraine and this agreement will be enforced one way or another.
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    Post  Karl Haushofer Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:50 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    They can try to migrate to Russia or elsewhere.
    It was agreed that Donbass is part of Ukraine and this agreement will be enforced one way or another.

    Donbass can be "part of Ukraine" in several ways.

    It can be "part of Ukraine" the way Transnistria is "part of Moldova".

    Or it can be "part of Ukraine" the way Kharkov is part of Ukraine.
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:54 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    They can try to migrate to Russia or elsewhere.
    It was agreed that Donbass is part of Ukraine and this agreement will be enforced one way or another.

    Donbass can be "part of Ukraine" in several ways.

    It can be "part of Ukraine" the way Transnistria is "part of Moldova".

    Or it can be "part of Ukraine" the way Kharkov is part of Ukraine.

    The people in charge do not seem to be interested in creating a second Transnistria.
    I can't blame them. Transnistria's future is even more uncertain than Ukraine's.
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    Post  Regular Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:54 pm

    I think You overestimate Ukrainian shellings. They are terrible and human loss is tragical, but it won't wipe Eastern Ukraine off the map. Don't worry.
    Yes, it's still ukraine technically, but for Ukraine it's still too hard nut to crack. NAF forces and their capabilities are not dependant on Novorosiya economy, logistically they are in better situation than Ukraine. Russia is already doing all but invading with full force. I still think 1 russian soldier is worth more than 100s of Ukrainian citizens who never contributed to Russia, but now they play ethnic card to get Russia in:)
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    Post  Karl Haushofer Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:55 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Putin and the Kremlin elite care only about maintenance of power, getting respect and making money, not Russians in Russia's near abroad.

    I think Putin genuinely cares about the overall power and state of Russia as a country (instead of just caring about his own and his inner circle's wealth). So it would be wrong to label Putin as a selfish traitor because he is not that. He is too hated by the West to be a complete bad guy.

    My guess it that the problem with Donbass is that Putin does not see them as Russians and does not see protecting Donbass as a vital security interest for Russia. Crimea was another thing because its status as an unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Black Sea. Putin is certainly not a humanist but more like a technocrat or a chess-player. I think he is making a mistake though for not acting more decisively in Donbass.
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    Post  Regular Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:59 pm

    My guess it that the problem with Donbass is that Putin does not see them as Russians and does not see protecting Donbass as a vital security interest for Russia.
    But they are not Russian citizens. Simples.
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:00 pm

    Regular wrote:
    My guess it that the problem with Donbass is that Putin does not see them as Russians and does not see protecting Donbass as a vital security interest for Russia.
    But they are not Russian citizens. Simples.

    Neither were the Crimeans until last year.
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    Post  Flagship Victory Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:01 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:Putin might go but the policy will likely not change much. And this is a generally a good thing (since Putin's time has been good for Russia) but for Donbass it means that the victory is not at sight.

    Putin is the most liberal Russian politician ever. Anyone else succeeding him will be hostile to Maidan. Wink

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    Post  Karl Haushofer Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:02 pm

    Regular wrote:
    My guess it that the problem with Donbass is that Putin does not see them as Russians and does not see protecting Donbass as a vital security interest for Russia.
    But they are not Russian citizens. Simples.
    Neither were Crimeans or South Ossetians.
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    Post  Regular Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:02 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    My guess it that the problem with Donbass is that Putin does not see them as Russians and does not see protecting Donbass as a vital security interest for Russia.
    But they are not Russian citizens. Simples.

    Neither were the Crimeans until last year.
    Some of them were. The ones who made it happen and kept orcs away
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    Post  Karl Haushofer Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:02 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    Karl Haushofer wrote:Putin might go but the policy will likely not change much. And this is a generally a good thing (since Putin's time has been good for Russia) but for Donbass it means that the victory is not at sight.

    Putin is the most liberal Russian politician ever. Anyone else succeeding him will be hostile to Maidan.  Wink

    More liberal than Yeltsin, Gaidar and Nemtsov?
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:03 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    My guess it that the problem with Donbass is that Putin does not see them as Russians and does not see protecting Donbass as a vital security interest for Russia.
    But they are not Russian citizens. Simples.
    Neither were Crimeans or South Ossetians.

    Technically, most South Ossetians have been Russian citizens for many years.
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    Post  Karl Haushofer Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:04 pm

    Regular wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    My guess it that the problem with Donbass is that Putin does not see them as Russians and does not see protecting Donbass as a vital security interest for Russia.
    But they are not Russian citizens. Simples.

    Neither were the Crimeans until last year.
    Some of them were. The ones who made it happen and kept orcs away
    I think deep down you know that Russia did what it did in Crimea to protect its navy and military presence in Black Sea.

    If Donbass had similar strategic value for Russia then Putin would have done the same thing there.
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    Post  Flagship Victory Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:09 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:More liberal than Yeltsin, Gaidar and Nemtsov?

    Yes. Yeltsin fought Moldova and deployed peacekeepers to Transnistria.

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