The Situation in the Ukraine. #14

franco wrote:You had better research that one. Realize it was before your time but Communist Party hardliners tried a coup. Gorby was arrested and held under house arrest in Sochi while Yelstin rallied the country against the coup. Most Army units refused to get involved and those that did soon found their troops switching sides and refusing to attack. The rest came after the coup was defeated.

Neutrality wrote:China has a communistic political system and a capitalistic economic system and it works fine. The USSR would have been able to achieve the same results.

Again, Gorbachev is the biggest traitor in Russian history. Yeltsin should have been jailed (and preferably shot) like the other SFSR members. It's Yeltsin's addressing to the nation that led to the failed coup. If they had proceeded with the coup it would be over in less than an hour. I still can't understand why everything failed like that.

Neutrality wrote:China has a communistic political system and a capitalistic economic system and it works fine.

auslander wrote:

franco wrote:"One forced power from the other. there is a pretty famous video somewhere with photos of tanks near Kremlin and Yeltsin demanding for Grobachev to step down. Gorbachev fled to his dacha in.....sochi? Dont remember where he was then put under house arrest. All the american democratic way."

You had better research that one. Realize it was before your time but Communist Party hardliners tried a coup. Gorby was arrested and held under house arrest in Sochi while Yelstin rallied the country against the coup. Most Army units refused to get involved and those that did soon found their troops switching sides and refusing to attack. The rest came after the coup was defeated.

The fighting around central Mockba was pretty strong at times including tanks, one of which fired at the White House and set it ablaze. If my aging memory serves it was Ruskoi and Hazbulatov who were the leaders of the coup attempt and it was their offices in the WH that the tank was firing at, from the other side of the river again if memory serves. The fighting in and around Mockba TV and Radio was also very strong including in the main building. The coup makers wanted to capture TV and Radio to control the informations being disseminated. They failed. In general the coup was the damnedest thing you would ever see, citizens standing on street corners watching fighting going on not 50 meters from them. Needless to say some of them died. There was great confusion among Militsiya and the armed forces, some refusing to get involved, some fighting for the coup and some fighting against the coup. There were and are to this day rumors that Gorbachev was involved with the coup makers. Fighting also spread to some of the suburbs of Mockba, in particular Stoxonohe District where there was a heck of a fight for the Militsiya Station. Stroxonohe District has a small claim to fame in that it was in that district that the German Army came their closest to Mockba, that and the district was home to a fairly large contingent of field grade officers from KGB and armed forces.  

Flagship Victory wrote:

Neutrality wrote:China has a communistic political system and a capitalistic economic system and it works fine.

China is not capitalistic in any sense of the word. China has very strong central planning. Most of the industry is state owned, unlike in the US where most of the industry is public owned. All those high rise buildings and infrastructure such as high speed rail that China builds, none of them are privately funded as would be the case in the US, but rather they are all state funded. Indeed, the China Dream is that every Chinese family has a house financed and built by the state.

Viktor wrote:Nice  

Ten first selected import substitution projects

no more foreign pipes

"Gazprom" will fully switch to the Russian pipe

Inflation in Russia the fifth week kept at 0.1%

Collection of taxes in the budget for 4 months increased by 14.7%


no need for GMO eggs from GMO chickens or GMO poultry

Rosselkhoznadzor has banned the import of poultry and eggs from the United States

franco wrote:Porkie says he now has 50,000 troops in Donbas.
And if the NAF has the audacity to fight back when attacked, he will declare Martial Law... okay, I might be paraphrasing a little there  

Khepesh wrote:offtop I know, but Alexander Rutskoi and Ruslan Khasbulatov were essentially not trying to resurect Soviet Union, but more to stop Yeltsin as it was already clear by 1993 that he was a dangerous loony. Rutskoi was vice president and technicaly became acting president for about one week as Yeltsin had been impeached by Duma. I would say that moraly Rutskoi was right, but the army had no desire to see a civil war erupt, as almost happened in 1991 when there was a possibility that elements Tamanskaya and Kantemirovskaya could have fought each other. The tank Yeltsin is seen on making a speech in 1991 was from Tamanskaya, and the forces around the Garden Ring ready to advance on White House were from primarily Kantemirovskaya, with some of Tamanskaya supporting Yeltsin and some not. Alpha and Vympel were closer in. In 1993 it was tanks of Kantemirovskaya, manned by politically reliable officers, that were firing at White House. Should be noted that Grachev saved Yeltsin on both occasions and likely burns in hell with him.

USA Today wrote:Biden cracks door to lethal aid to Ukraine
Tom Vanden Brook, USA TODAY 5:38 p.m. EDT May 27, 2015

WASHINGTON — The debate over whether to provide lethal defensive aid, such as anti-tank missiles, to Ukraine is "worth having," Vice President Biden said Wednesday.

Last week, the Pentagon scrambled to send anti-tank missiles to Iraqi security forces. The portable weapons can pierce armor on vehicles and could presumably have a similar use in Ukraine.

Biden accused Russia, led by Vladimir Putin, of flouting international rules including "brutal" aggression in Ukraine.

He called for strengthening NATO and energy independence for Europe, which relies heavily on Russia for natural gas.

Biden's remarks in a speech at the Brookings Institution follow more than a year of heightened U.S.-Russian tensions over the seizure of Ukrainian territory, including Crimea. Russian-supplied separatists — backed by Russian artillery strikes at times — have destabilized eastern Ukraine.

Russia has mounted a "hyper-aggressive" state-sponsored propaganda program, Biden said. But it had not yet shaken European unity.

The Pentagon has sought to reassure Baltic-state countries by holding joint training exercises and sending advance warplanes to the region. Continue reading.

franco wrote:
That was the second Coup later, when the Parliament tried to impeach Yelstin in 1993. The coup against Gorbachev was in 1991.

sepheronx wrote:Makes it easier. When you have a system in place for so long, change is hard to get through, even to average person. When it is destroyed, easier to rebuild.

Not ideal though, as evident of 90's and early 2000's.

whir wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Makes it easier. When you have a system in place for so long, change is hard to get through, even to average person. When it is destroyed, easier to rebuild.

Not ideal though, as evident of 90's and early 2000's.

Bovine manure, politicians wanted their personal fiefdoms and decided to ride the nationalistic wave to fill their pockets.

Neutrality wrote:So today there was a proposal in the Rada to legalize prostitution "to prevent veneral diseases that these women are risking to get and to help fill the state budget".

No comment.

Hromadske TV via Google Translate wrote:Компанія-постачальник ліків для ВІЛ-інфікованих ліквідовується
The company supplying drugs to HIV-infected liquidated
Thursday, May 28, 2015

On Thursday, the Unified State Register of Ukraine was reported that the company "Vector-Pharma", which had put the medicine for 30 thousand. People with HIV / AIDS liquidated.

Reported Charity Fund "Ukraine Patients".

Notification of elimination appeared the next day after Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk instructed the Interior Ministry to check the implementation of the agreement by the Ministry of Health to supply drugs for HIV treatment.

"Such a move could indicate that the company does not fulfill its obligations to the Government of Ukraine and supply medicines. There is a huge risk that the state will not be able to achieve not only the supply of drugs, but also back the budget money that the company paid in December, "- said the lawyer 'Centre Combating Corruption" Olena Shcherban.

According to the head of "All-Ukrainian Network of People Living with HIV" Vladimir Zhovtyak, "Vector-Pharma" as not a single penny donated drugs supplier.

Recall that the company "Vector-Pharma" December 22 received 52 million USD in the form of 100% payment for drugs for HIV-infected.

According to the "Ukrainian Network of People Living with HIV" for 15 June in Ukraine medications fail to thousands of HIV-positive people who had put a "Vektor-Pharma". Continue reading.

Neutrality wrote:

Khepesh wrote:offtop I know, but Alexander Rutskoi and Ruslan Khasbulatov were essentially not trying to resurect Soviet Union, but more to stop Yeltsin as it was already clear by 1993 that he was a dangerous loony. Rutskoi was vice president and technicaly became acting president for about one week as Yeltsin had been impeached by Duma. I would say that moraly Rutskoi was right, but the army had no desire to see a civil war erupt, as almost happened in 1991 when there was a possibility that elements Tamanskaya and Kantemirovskaya could have fought each other. The tank Yeltsin is seen on making a speech in 1991 was from Tamanskaya, and the forces around the Garden Ring ready to advance on White House were from primarily Kantemirovskaya, with some of Tamanskaya supporting Yeltsin and some not. Alpha and Vympel were closer in. In 1993 it was tanks of Kantemirovskaya, manned by politically reliable officers, that were firing at White House. Should be noted that Grachev saved Yeltsin on both occasions and likely burns in hell with him.

You seem to be pretty informed on these matters so I have a few questions regarding the events in 1991 and 1993.

1) What's Zhirinovksy view on what happened in 1991 and who did he support, the GKChP or the RSFS (i.e Yeltsin)?
2) Did Zhirinovsky support Khasbulatov and Rutskoi at that time?

Neutrality wrote:

Khepesh wrote:offtop I know, but Alexander Rutskoi and Ruslan Khasbulatov were essentially not trying to resurect Soviet Union, but more to stop Yeltsin as it was already clear by 1993 that he was a dangerous loony. Rutskoi was vice president and technicaly became acting president for about one week as Yeltsin had been impeached by Duma. I would say that moraly Rutskoi was right, but the army had no desire to see a civil war erupt, as almost happened in 1991 when there was a possibility that elements Tamanskaya and Kantemirovskaya could have fought each other. The tank Yeltsin is seen on making a speech in 1991 was from Tamanskaya, and the forces around the Garden Ring ready to advance on White House were from primarily Kantemirovskaya, with some of Tamanskaya supporting Yeltsin and some not. Alpha and Vympel were closer in. In 1993 it was tanks of Kantemirovskaya, manned by politically reliable officers, that were firing at White House. Should be noted that Grachev saved Yeltsin on both occasions and likely burns in hell with him.

You seem to be pretty informed on these matters so I have a few questions regarding the events in 1991 and 1993.

1) What's Zhirinovksy view on what happened in 1991 and who did he support, the GKChP or the RSFS (i.e Yeltsin)?
2) Did Zhirinovsky support Khasbulatov and Rutskoi at that time?

flamming_python wrote:I think many of you are pretty confused.
Support of the coupists in 1991? Really? No-one at the time thought that would be a good idea, not even their own subordinates - and for good reason.

By 1991 it was OVER.
Wayyyyy too late to save the USSR.
Doesn't matter what some communist-party hardliners did or didn't do; they didn't have the support of their own capital city's population; much less the periphery republics of the USSR half of which had de-facto long since rebelled and were busy organizing their own independent statehoods.
War in Ossetia was already raging by that time, while Nagorny-Karabakh had already been going on for quite a while.
Imagine how much more bloodshed there would have been if the hardliners succeeded and tried to re-assert control over everything with military force.

And even if they magically succeeded w/o provoking a massive civil war - what then? Have everyone's personal freedoms and the media rolled back past the Gorby-era, and probably even further to Cuban or NK standards? Desperate attempts to resurrect a zombie economy?

If there was to be any saving of the USSR; Gorbachev's reign was basically the last chance to do it. And honestly, Gorbachev had the right ideas - it's just that the execution left much to be desired, and in hindsight everything was attempted and implemented too quickly.
Change needs to be gradual, otherwise society will experience shock and disruption; while the political system, economy could destabilize and in fact that's exactly what happened.
China took a course of gradual change and reform. It worked out much better.

Andropov had a Master Plan of which Gorby was a first generation model. Putin was a second generation model.

But really, all these reforms and so on should have started before Gorbachev; if there was to be a good chance of their success. By 1985 when Gorbachev came to power, there were already significant internal divisions and rising levels of nationalism, common people were already highly cynical towards Socialist ideology and the CPSU, the economy was already stagnant and highly dependent on what price the Soviet Union could sell oil and gas to the West too.
It wasn't an enviable situation and there would have been no assurances that the USSR could have been saved even if Gorby turned out to be the greatest leader.

The Brezhnev-era or the end of it, with the coming to power of Andropov - should have been the time to start with change and reform. It's about the time China started out on their new path, don't you know.