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    Venezuela crisis

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    Will usa be successful in installing it's puppet

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    Total Votes: 35
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy on Fri May 15, 2020 3:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:The irony is that war by definition is dirty... do as I say and do things the way I tell you to or I will kill you and your family and everyone around you until you submit to my demands.

    Human interactions, in their primeval barebone essence, is an interplay of two eternal beasts:

    1. Everything else being equal, the dirtiest player always wins; and

    2. The most sustainable pattern of interplay in a group of people is that the selfish majority does whatever it wants with the weaker minority.


    Each of us, sandwiched by these two nasty, bloody-minded, hungry forces needs to navigate between them, escaping, joining, switching allegiances as the situation dictates
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Fri May 15, 2020 3:26 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The irony is that war by definition is dirty... do as I say and do things the way I tell you to or I will kill you and your family and everyone around you until you submit to my demands.

    Human interactions, in their primeval barebone essence, is an interplay of two eternal beasts:

    1. Everything else being equal, the dirtiest player always wins; and

    2. The most sustainable pattern of interplay in a group of people is that the selfish majority does whatever it wants with the weaker minority.


    Each of us, sandwiched by these two nasty, bloody-minded, hungry forces needs to navigate between them, escaping, joining, switching allegiances as the situation dictates

    There is an additional feature:

    3. Most humans are sheep and the decisions for society are made by a tiny minority.

    Not everyone is a frothing at the mouth hater but most people can be instigated by agitation organized for political and economic objectives
    by the elites. In the USA, anti-black laws (Jim Crow laws by southern Democrats) were designed to keep blacks down and retain their
    cheap labour "utility". If blacks were so bad, the "concerned" could have had them shipped back to Africa. Liberia was the result of
    US blacks returning to Africa of their own volition.

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue May 19, 2020 8:02 pm

    There's more bad news to come: https://vz.ru/world/2020/5/19/1039796.print.html

    Update on Iranian tankers & their potential capture:
    https://vz.ru/world/2020/5/18/1039836.print.html

    https://ria.ru/20200515/1571424845.html

    I hope that this time the era of forced regime changes is over.
    If they could form a regional political-mil. force like the Collective Security Treaty Organization, it would be a lot harder for outsiders to stick their noses there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Security_Treaty_Organization



    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed May 20, 2020 11:58 am

    Human interactions, in their primeval barebone essence, is an interplay of two eternal beasts:

    1. Everything else being equal, the dirtiest player always wins; and

    2. The most sustainable pattern of interplay in a group of people is that the selfish majority does whatever it wants with the weaker minority.


    Each of us, sandwiched by these two nasty, bloody-minded, hungry forces needs to navigate between them, escaping, joining, switching allegiances as the situation dictates

    When I read that reply I immediately thought there is only one thing worse than a dirty cheater... Hilary Clinton... not only cheated but she still lost to Donald Trump... so while the American public still lost out because the choice was incompetent or evil... at least they avoided evil... and got a clown...
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Wed May 20, 2020 2:47 pm

    Don't seem to be able to get up to date tracking on those tankers carrying petrol and diesel to Venezuela, mine seems to stop 2 days ago off Morocco. They might be out of AIS range and satellite tracking seems to cost money. Expected arrival is claimed to be Sunday/Monday. One of them at least, MV Petunia, Panama flagged, is only a couple of years old.

    I would think that it would be a reasonable assumption that they have plenty of Iranian marines with significant guns and missiles on board. No doubt only as self protection when sailing past Somalia and the pirates. But there is a rumour of pirates off the northern South American coast. Smile
    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed May 20, 2020 5:42 pm

    JohninMK wrote:I would think that it would be a reasonable assumption that they have plenty of Iranian marines with significant guns and missiles on board. No doubt only as self protection when sailing past Somalia and the pirates. But there is a rumour of pirates off the northern South American coast. Smile

    Club-K?
    Venezuela crisis - Page 37 ?u=https%3A%2F%2Ffreebeacon.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F03%2FClub-K-Container_2
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Wed May 20, 2020 5:46 pm

    There was no Iranian naval escort for these Tankers. Perhaps not too late to send some. Also Venezuela can send a couple to meet and escort to port. Then if Yank make a move, they know will fire back. No longer pussyfooting about......No gunboat Diplomacy.......... No negotiations under duress or sanctions........ No diverting Tankers...... No dancing around with speed boats...........
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed May 20, 2020 6:25 pm

    nomadski wrote:There was no Iranian naval escort for these Tankers. Perhaps not too late to send some. Also Venezuela can send a couple to meet and escort to port. Then if Yank make a move, they know will fire back. No longer  pussyfooting about......No gunboat Diplomacy.......... No negotiations under duress or sanctions........ No diverting Tankers...... No dancing around with speed boats...........

    There could be submarine escort (from the Ru Navy) for all we know.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed May 20, 2020 6:48 pm

    It's enough- a sub must surface to let the other side know it means business, but on the surface a sub can be shot at with guns & artillery.
    2. The most sustainable pattern of interplay in a group of people is that the selfish majority does whatever it wants with the weaker minority.
    not always: the past empires had the minority ruling class imposing its will on the majority they conquered for 100s, & some over a 1K years.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Wed May 20, 2020 7:00 pm

    @ Magnumcromagnon



    We are talking about actual possibility of shooting. I think it may come to that. Not just warning shot. So if Russia wants to help escort. Fine. But if shooting starts, they my keep out. Iran sending another five Tankers to China. I think Iran should send trade ship to North Korea now. Or invite escort for North Korean ship to Iran. North Korea also has Sub. Can escort part of the way............ Open multiple front.....now where is Kim's phone number.......another ship to Syria..........another to Yemen.......Gaza.......
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed May 20, 2020 7:50 pm

    nomadski wrote:@ Magnumcromagnon



    We are talking about actual possibility of shooting. I think it may come to that. Not just warning shot. So if Russia wants to help escort. Fine. But if shooting starts, they my keep out. Iran sending another five Tankers to China. I think Iran should send trade ship to North Korea now. Or invite escort for North Korean ship to Iran. North Korea also has Sub. Can escort part of the way............ Open multiple front.....now where is Kim's phone number.......another ship to Syria..........another to Yemen.......Gaza.......

    I doubt NK's sub fleet is in the best of shape for that, the Ru Navy could just as easily call the commander of the U.S. Fourth Fleet/Southern Command and inform them that Russian attack subs are shadowing the Iranian tankers so there wouldn't be any incident. Problem solved.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed May 20, 2020 7:59 pm

    Club-K?
    A container on a tanker deck will defeat its purpose of camouflaging missiles inside.

    https://news.antiwar.com/2020/05/19/state-dept-accuses-china-of-helping-iran-ship-fuel-to-venezuela/

    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2955788.html


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed May 20, 2020 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 20, 2020 8:36 pm

    I dont know why Russia and china have not opened up a port and storage warehouses in Cuba, to move goods between Cuba and Venezuela.  It would be a lot easier to transfer said goods to Cuba and then have ships stationed there to provide protection to vessels traveling to and from Venezuela.

    Could be a huge economic opportunity to all parties as well.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu May 21, 2020 4:56 am

    I would think that it would be a reasonable assumption that they have plenty of Iranian marines with significant guns and missiles on board.

    I presume the Venezuelans have men that can shoot straight... a combination of SVDs, PKPs, and of course RPGs should be sufficient to stop most boarding parties...

    I would think the Iranians might offer such soldiers for free of course... I am sure there are more than a few that respected the general the Americans murdered in cold blood openly and in public...

       
       2. The most sustainable pattern of interplay in a group of people is that the selfish majority does whatever it wants with the weaker minority.

    not always: the past empires had the minority ruling class imposing its will on the majority they conquered for 100s, & some over a 1K years.

    Indeed... the secret of colonialism is to somehow control enormous populations without needing enormous armed forces to do so because any riot or attack can spark revolt and your armed men wont last long against millions. The obvious way to control a large population is to pick a minority that has been victimised by the masses and put them in charge. They wont hold back from being brutal when they need to be, and they owe their position to you so they will be loyal because they know if you leave then they will be slaughtered at worst or put back to the bottom of society at best...

    I doubt NK's sub fleet is in the best of shape for that, the Ru Navy could just as easily call the commander of the U.S. Fourth Fleet/Southern Command and inform them that Russian attack subs are shadowing the Iranian tankers so there wouldn't be any incident. Problem solved.

    That would give them a reason to follow to practise trying to track Russian subs.

    A sub is a very bad idea for an escort except during war when enemy ships can be sunk on sight.

    The enemy troops are only intimidated by snipers when they shoot... not when they hold fire and walk along with the troops they are supporting.

    I dont know why Russia and china have not opened up a port and storage warehouses in Cuba, to move goods between Cuba and Venezuela. It would be a lot easier to transfer said goods to Cuba and then have ships stationed there to provide protection to vessels traveling to and from Venezuela.

    Could be a huge economic opportunity to all parties as well.

    That is actually a very good idea... they could expand it into a transport hub for the region and help other countries on Americas shit list too... especially with things like medication etc that you can't just grow yourself.

    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Thu May 21, 2020 10:41 pm

    Positions a couple of days ago. They are traveling around 300 miles (500km) a day with transponders off. The Venezuelans are going to meet them when they get to their economic zone. If the US pirates have not already struck that is.

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    EDIT

    Aurora Intel - #StayHome
    @AuroraIntel
    ·
    7h
    Because it keeps getting asked.

    #Iran|ian tanker Fortune is roughly 800nm from the #Venezuela EEZ, she's travelling when I checked, at 13.5kn's. This gives approx. 59 hours until she reaches the EEZ. She has traveled at 17kn's previously, this would be 47 hours,


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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Fri May 22, 2020 3:33 pm

    This is a new tanker name in the convoy , maybe a sixth? Might be out front.

    Spriter
    @ynms79797979
    ·
    25m
    Valent tanker carrying Iranian oil to Venezuela arrives in Venezuela within 48 hours



    Posted 15 hours ago


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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Fri May 22, 2020 8:18 pm

    Delivering oil products rather than crude.

    ImageSat Intl.
    @ImageSatIntl
    ·
    3h
    Using #ISI unique tracking algorithms, two #Iranian tankers detected at the #AtlanticOcean with #ErosB satellite, North-East to #Venezuela. The #tankers (five in total) are on their way from #Iran to Venezuela, delivering #oil in contrast to the #USA #sanctions.




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    George1
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    Post  George1 on Sat May 23, 2020 11:58 pm

    First Iranian tanker to reach Venezuela in next 24 hours: report
    By
    News Desk -
    2020-05-23 0

    BEIRUT, LEBANON (5:30 P.M.) – Iranian state television reported on Saturday that five tankers are heading to Venezuela, loaded with 1.053 thousand barrels of fuel.

    They pointed out that the first tanker is scheduled to arrive in Venezuela on Sunday, while the remaining four are still sailing in the Atlantic Ocean.

    The fuel tankers, which have been identified as the Petunia, Faxon, Fortune, Forest, and Clavel, all entered the Atlantic Ocean’s waters earlier this week after crossing the Strait of Gibraltar.

    According to data from maritime tracking services, the Fortune was last monitored in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Morocco on May 16th, and it is expected to reach its destination tomorrow.

    The Petrunia, Faxon, and Clavel were also last detected in the same area on May 18 and May 19 and today May 23 respectively, and are expected to reach their destination on May 25, May 29 and June 2.

    As for Forest, it is expected to reach its destination on May 25.

    The ship tracking sites did not specify the destination of these carriers, but Iran made it known that these vessels were heading to the South American nation.

    This issue raised international interest, especially in light of the incident of the British detention of an Iranian tanker at the Strait of Gibraltar last year.

    The government of Venezuela has pledged to provide Iranian tankers with the required protection in its territorial waters, in anticipation of possible steps by the United States that imposed severe sanctions on both Tehran and Caracas.
    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/first-iranian-tanker-to-reach-venezuela-in-next-24-hours-report/
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    Post  JohninMK on Sun May 24, 2020 2:21 pm

    First one there

    Venezuela crisis - Page 37 EYxTHHWXQAUgMuu?format=jpg&name=360x360
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Tue May 26, 2020 1:10 am

    Number two in the convoy, MV Forest, is in Venezuelan waters whilst Number one, MV Fortune, is now alongside. Looks like one arriving each morning.

    The significance is huge for Venezuela, the five Iranian tankers have a capacity of approximately 800,000 barrels i.e, they carry 127 million liters of gasoline.

    Further, a cargo ship brings 800,000 liters of chemical catalysts for distilling gasoline, which would allow Venezuelan refineries to produce such fuel for years. The arrival of this cargo ship would help break the energy blockade enforced by the United States.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 26, 2020 2:33 am

    JohninMK wrote:.......
    Further, a cargo ship brings 800,000 liters of chemical catalysts for distilling gasoline, which would allow Venezuelan refineries to produce such fuel for years. The arrival of this cargo ship would help break the energy blockade enforced by the United States.

    This would be the most important of the bunch
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Tue May 26, 2020 12:46 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:.......
    Further, a cargo ship brings 800,000 liters of chemical catalysts for distilling gasoline, which would allow Venezuelan refineries to produce such fuel for years. The arrival of this cargo ship would help break the energy blockade enforced by the United States.

    This would be the most important of the bunch

    Indeed. Apparently all the petrol will only last them a couple of months. There is an unidentified ship, described as a tanker, that seems to be ahead of MV Petunia, both of which are now in Venezuelan waters. maybe this is it. Definitely the one to protect and move without fuss. Only two tankers in the Atlantic now.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed May 27, 2020 9:57 pm

    The Chinese connection: https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/smooth-sailing-for-iranian-tankers-with-chinas-backing/?mc_cid=ea178eb089&mc_eid=5455568640

    IMO there r other reasons they were allowed to proceed. Trump is under seige at home for his handling of the pandemic & a major escalation around Venezuela involving the USN is the last thing he needs.
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Thu May 28, 2020 12:06 am

    'Forest', the second oil tanker from Iran arrived in Venezuela's largest refinery, the Paraguana refinery complex, in Falcon state. The tanker, Forest, was welcomed by authorities and staff of Punta Cardon port, who were seen waving Iranian and Venezuelan flags.

    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Fri May 29, 2020 4:48 pm

    Four tankers there, one to go.

    It was going too smoothly, this from Sputnik this morning

    The United States has forced two ships carrying Iranian energy supplies to Venezuela to cancel their deliveries under the threat of sanctions, The Wall Street Journal and Fox News report.

    It is understood that the two vessels were the Bering and the Bella. Both are registered in Liberia and owned by Greek shippers. They were supposed to arrive in Venezuela after a five-tanker flotilla that was scrambled to supply fuel, additives and spare parts for Venezuelan refineries. The first four Iranian tankers from that flotilla have already safely docked in Venezuela, and the fifth is still en route.

    As first reported by The WSJ, the Bering and the Bella were forced to turn back after US officials contacted the Liberian government and threatened with sanctions should they proceed with the delivery. They also have been in direct communication with the ships and threatened their Greek owners with sanctions and legal action, according to the report.

    Liberia is said to have immediately revoked the ships' accreditation; otherwise, they would lose access to international banking and maritime insurance. The ships were reportedly heading south off the coast of Senegal near Liberia on Thursday.

    The Trump administration confirmed the move to Fox News. "We will continue to use the full weight of United States' economic and diplomatic power to press for the restoration of Venezuelan democracy," a State Department spokesperson told the network.

    "We will continue to use the full weight of United States' economic and diplomatic power to press for the restoration of Venezuelan democrac."

    There has been no comment from Iran or Venezuela so far.

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