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    Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:17 pm

    Given the BLM spasm in the USA, UK and elsewhere we still have people parroting the inane diversity propaganda. The western
    definition of diversity is not merely recognition of its existence, but full bore pandering to it. Like the case with trannies and
    public toilets and participation of biological males in women's sports leading to serious injuries of female participants (the
    trannies causing the injuries are not some transitioned through surgery "females" on estrogen, they are just asserting
    their self-identification as women.)

    Russia has been a multi-ethnic state centuries before America existed. The term "tsar of all the Russias" refers precisely to
    the fact that there was not one monolithic Russia, but a plurality of constituents. The endless bleating about ethnic Russian
    "nationalism" by western hate propaganda is a total lie. Russians for the last 1000 years and by definition before (as with
    every ethnic group going back to pre-state days when the idea of nationalism did not exist) has not had the sort of
    western nationalism that gave us the Nazis and similar in Europe and the New World. The whole concept of ethnic nationalism
    was refined in the west and spread eastward. The break up of the USSR was not because of return to some status quo
    before its formation, but because of a combination of Bolshie pandering to ethnic nationalism and western import of similar
    as a tool to fragment the Russian Empire.

    The people advocating western style "diversity" in this thread want to see Russia divided into little pieces that are easy
    to rule by western colonialists. The whole concept of fracturing states to the level of some regional variation is absurd.
    Such regional variations are not viable on their own and as with Ukraine and Russia we see that over time any homogeneous
    ethnos will regionally diverge. If we keep pandering to this process through border formation and "independence", then
    over time all countries will become the size of Liechtenstein and most of them will be fully land-locked and have no resources
    for either food or industry.


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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:23 pm

    Clearly flaming hates Russia and Russians as he wants further breakup as he himself admitted that economic issues is what caused ethnic issues.  So in other words, because of pandering to this nonsense of multiculturalism, Russia has to forever live in fear that they may further split apart if the money doesn't continue to flow.  Obviously that itself outright proves him wrong and that Soviet system was wrong as well.

    Good thing is, the government and majority of the country isn't falling for this meme of "communism" anymore.  Hell, Vietnam isn't communist and neither is China.  They quell groups through power and not bribes like Soviets did. And their state has lasted longer as is than USSR.

    I'm sick to death with people who have zero understanding of human nature but thinks they can be above it while being proven time and time again it doesn't work.

    Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    Edit: I know Flaming loves Russia and Russians as he is one. And I know he means well. He is a smart man. It's just some people understand this while others don't.

    Japan does well cause it's a homogenous society. So good or bad times, they are able to get together and fix and issue. Multicultural countries can't. They tend to burn as we are seeing everywhere else and start to form new "tribes".
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    Post  kvs on Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:31 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Clearly flaming hates Russia and Russians as he wants further breakup as he himself admitted that economic issues is what caused ethnic issues.  So in other words, because of pandering to this nonsense of multiculturalism, Russia has to forever live in fear that they may further split apart if the money doesn't continue to flow.  Obviously that itself outright proves him wrong and that Soviet system was wrong as well.

    Good thing is, the government and majority of the country isn't falling for this meme of "communism" anymore.  Hell, Vietnam isn't communist and neither is China.  They quell groups through power and not bribes like Soviets did. And their state has lasted longer as is than USSR.

    I'm sick to death with people who have zero understanding of human nature but thinks they can be above it while being proven time and time again it doesn't work.

    Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    Well, that is the whole neo-colonial shtick of the west. The fabricate fake moral superiority such as "diversity". The propaganda
    concept is that we have "more rights" than "you do" since "we have more pandering to trivial differences".

    BTW, there is no linguistic oppression in Russia and any sort of "Russification". People repeating this here are either ignorant (western
    MSM koolaid drinkers) or liars. Russia has kept the core policies of the USSR in terms of ethnic diversity. That is why it is a
    federation. Also, it's cute how Russia is always attacked for this and that, but the precious west is extolled. In Canada,
    zero of the aboriginal ethnic groups have any chance at the formation of a state. They were herded onto microscopic reservations
    which are total welfare toilets with actual 3rd world conditions. This was deliberate policy to break them since making them
    dependent robs them of any spirit to secede and it also establish are corrupt local government on the reservations since the
    chiefs and their families make millions off central government welfare. It is a type of banana republic colony model. By contrast,
    in Russia we have substantial fractions of the indigenous peoples have functional republics such as the Sakha Republic and
    Tatarstan. Russia never herded indigenous people into reservation ghettos.

    So all the whiners and critics in this thread can go and shove themselves where the sun don't shine.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:34 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Clearly flaming hates Russia and Russians as he wants further breakup as he himself admitted that economic issues is what caused ethnic issues.  So in other words, because of pandering to this nonsense of multiculturalism, Russia has to forever live in fear that they may further split apart if the money doesn't continue to flow.  Obviously that itself outright proves him wrong and that Soviet system was wrong as well.

    Good thing is, the government and majority of the country isn't falling for this meme of "communism" anymore.  Hell, Vietnam isn't communist and neither is China.  They quell groups through power and not bribes like Soviets did. And their state has lasted longer as is than USSR.

    I'm sick to death with people who have zero understanding of human nature but thinks they can be above it while being proven time and time again it doesn't work.

    Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    Edit: I know Flaming loves Russia and Russians as he is one. And I know he means well. He is a smart man. It's just some people understand this while others don't.

    Japan does well cause it's a homogenous society. So good or bad times, they are able to get together and fix and issue. Multicultural countries can't. They tend to burn as we are seeing everywhere else and start to form new "tribes".

    Actually he is not "Russian". He is a resident of Russia. There are many in Russia who are sycophants of the west and rabidly
    hate Russia. Given how hard they lie about it and how they repeat the self-congratulatory western propaganda, they are not
    credible in their convictions. If they have it so bad, then they should bugger on off to their NATzO promised land. Perhaps they
    can kiss the feet of some "oppressed by whites" minorities when they arrive.

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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:36 pm

    Russia still has ethnic republics. Each of them has its own constitition and an official language. Their members have no issue with being Russian and Buryst/Tatar/Chuvash at the same time.

    In USSR timed a lot of people called themselves Soviet. You could be a Soviet Azeri but you were still Soviet.

    In case of Yugoslavia an important role was played economic crisis and by the fact that west really wanted Yugoslavia to collapse. The anti Yugo forced had full backing of a sole remaining superpower, the the federal forces had none.

    Had western countries told Slovenes and Croats clearly that they f... their independence and want Yugoslavia to stay united, it would have. Such Yugoslavia might have even joined EU and NATO like Poland did... but dhould you expect such a long term thinking from politicians?
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    Post  Isos on Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:03 pm

    The thread is about the military confrontation btw the two countries not about history of communism.
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    Post  kvs on Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:36 am

    Isos wrote:The thread is about the military confrontation btw the two countries not about history of communism.

    Well, it was Lenin who drew up the borders that left an enclave of Armenia inside Azerbaijan. So the history of communism
    is the foundation of the conflict. All around the world such reckless and criminal border creation has resulted in the deaths
    of millions. Rwanda and Burundi is a case of this imperial border formation. The Middle East is one big mess thanks to
    borders created by France, UK and even the USA (indirectly). Former Yugoslavia is yet more such BS border induced
    strife, ethnic cleansing and mass murder. And war.

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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:58 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Never the less I am against forced Russification; especially on lands of other peoples which is what I'm talking about. The whole school system has switched to drive out native languages in many republics. Hopefully after Putin gets the boot that can be reversed.

    Well I can understand what he is doing... should state funded schools support every little ethnic language and culture... my brother is a teacher and he had parents complaining that their children have no manners.... why isn't he teaching them manners.

    He is a high school teacher and basically said we only have them from 9am to 3pm... you have them the rest of the time.

    If these ethnic minorities have not taught their children to speak their ethnic minority tongue by the time they go to school why do they think the Russian government should teach them about their culture>

    Especially when the west is using minority groups to break up Russia.

    When you say Russian schools should teach different minority ethnic languages or it is oppression... are you also saying that not teaching all Russian children about different sexuality choices is also oppression of sexual deviants... whoops, gay and bi members of the community?

    If there is demand I would expect an ethnic minority in fear of losing its culture and language would set up their own schools to keep their language and culture alive instead of expecting the government to provide that.

    In the west we used to call that user pays.

    We don't need lessons in civilization, not even from the West.

    Vast majority of minority groups are loyal to Russia and fought side by side with us when the Nazis tried to exterminate Russians, and continue to serve Russia.
    So yes their problem is my problem. Of course not all of them have a problem, most don't care themselves and are mentally just Russians. But still everyone's a Russian citizen and has to have the same rights.

    Russia is rather more like Iran or India in this respect than Western countries which are adopting the model of America; where everyone is a diaspora. In that case yes, it makes sense for everyone to learn one language
    But Russia is different in that's it's a colonial empire that instead of collapsing started the transition into a socialist state before that, and now we're reverting to the empire model which will inevitably lead to dissent and collapse in the long-term. This trend must be reversed.

    The situation is not uniform; in some republics everyone learns the native language including Russians, whereas in others they've been removed altogether. This violates the constitution, as there is clearly demand for non-Russian language education
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:15 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Clearly flaming hates Russia and Russians as he wants further breakup as he himself admitted that economic issues is what caused ethnic issues.  So in other words, because of pandering to this nonsense of multiculturalism, Russia has to forever live in fear that they may further split apart if the money doesn't continue to flow.  Obviously that itself outright proves him wrong and that Soviet system was wrong as well.

    Good thing is, the government and majority of the country isn't falling for this meme of "communism" anymore.  Hell, Vietnam isn't communist and neither is China.  They quell groups through power and not bribes like Soviets did. And their state has lasted longer as is than USSR.

    I'm sick to death with people who have zero understanding of human nature but thinks they can be above it while being proven time and time again it doesn't work.

    Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    Edit: I know Flaming loves Russia and Russians as he is one. And I know he means well. He is a smart man. It's just some people understand this while others don't.

    Japan does well cause it's a homogenous society. So good or bad times, they are able to get together and fix and issue. Multicultural countries can't. They tend to burn as we are seeing everywhere else and start to form new "tribes".

    So do I hate Russians or love them? Make up your mind.

    I'm a patriot of Russia and I see where the country is heading, making the same mistakes as the Russian Empire and the later half of the Soviet Union, and all because our dickhead leaders don't want what's best for the country and are afraid of leaving power, as they'll be prosecuted inevitably afterwards.
    This whole tribalism thing is a result of all this bureaucracy, all these oligarch groups, lobbies, filling people's minds with backwards nonsense to subjugate them to their own business interests. Tribalism will always exist but it's inflamed exactly by people who install themselves in power and then eye a comfy seat for themselves as the heads of some community or independent Bantutistan loyal to NATO and American business interests. That's what happened in Georgia and Azerbaijan starting from the 70s, their leaders worked themselves up to the top of the communist heirarchy, installed themselves into their respective republics, and then started carrying out rather un-socialist policies such as chauvinism towards Abkhazians and Ossetians in Georgia forbidding their language and colonizing them with Georgians, and in Azerbaijan colonizing Nagorno-Karabakh with Azeris and making life shit for Armenians there. Then came the late 80s and these same sort of leaders and intelligencia started fanning the flames of ethnic provocations themselves and then just rode the populist and nationalist wave into independence. And look what conflicts we ended up with in Azerbaijan and Georgia as a result.

    The way to combat this is through local independent organs of people's democracy, that leaders are elected from and answer to, and justify by scientific thesis the decisions they make and accept criticism. And increase the education levels of the people as a whole, so that they know how statehood and government works, political and economic policies and theories. Remove the intellectual vanguardism that modern governments are ruled by, when the people in power decide they know what's best for the population instead of asking the people themselves, presenting their theories and discussing counter-theories.
    The Soviet model of top-down beurocracy that all sorts of careerists climbed by pretending to be committed socialists and then deciding for their own populations what's best for them - is part of what led to its downfall and various nationalisms, issues.

    Really the language issue is not what's on everyone's mind. It's not critical, I'm just using it as an example. What's on everyone's mind is our attempted transition back into Tsardom. It's absurd. We're not in the 19th century and can't follow an outdated model of development.

    The USSR's achievements were not because of the Russian people, or the wider Soviet people. The achievements were because of its social order, its economic order, it's education system. Whatever all that is, is what society of people you get. What I see between then and now is a steady degradation of people in knowledge, critical thinking abilities, and so on. We're becoming serfs.

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    Post  medo on Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:30 am

    http://www.ilivemap.com/1241/greece-military-delegation-meet-with-minister-of-defense-of-armenia-in-yerevan-to-discuss-bilateral-cooperation-in-the-field-of-defense

    On July 20, the Minister of Defense of the Republic of Armenia David Tonoyan received the Chargé d'Affaires of the Hellenic Republic in the Republic of Armenia. During the meeting, the current state and achievements of the Armenian-Greek bilateral cooperation in the field of defense, the further development of the cooperation were discussed. The Greek side has confirmed the continuation of military education and Greek language training programs.

    The Minister of Defense of the Republic of Armenia David Tonoyan stressed the importance of holding military-political consultations and expressed hope that the already planned events will be implemented in the near future.

    On the occasion of the completion of his mission in Armenia, the Defense Minister thanked the Military Attaché, Colonel Dimostenis Simayakis for his significant contribution to the development of the Armenian-Greek defense cooperation during his tenure and awarded the Attaché with the Medal for Military Cooperation.

    Issues related to regional security were also discussed during the meeting. The Armenian Minister of Defense presented the situation on the Armenian-Azerbaijani border and the destabilizing regional developments taking place around it.

    Greek delegation visit Armenian MoD. Greece is doing hard to spoil Erdogan's plans.

    I hope The Armenian could tell us more about situation on the border.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:53 am

    @flaming_python: uhm... I made a new comment about that issue in the thread "decline of western society" and you can move the aboved comments to that thread too.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:46 pm

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1285522034320080896

    Armenia shows plenty of Azerbaijani drones and loitoring munitions downed. Another proof drones are not able to replace manned jets.
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    Post  medo on Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:45 pm

    Armenian air defense armed with older Russian SAMs and AA guns made massacre on Azerbaijani drones, mostly Israeli made. Russian air defense complexes worked just fine in hands of well trained and competent crews. Turkish drones made massacre on Arap air defense not because Pantsirs are bad, they are just fine as we see in Hmeimim operated by Russian crews, but because Arap crews are badly trained and incompetent and use them in wrong way.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:01 am

    medo wrote:Armenian air defense armed with older Russian SAMs and AA guns made massacre on Azerbaijani drones, mostly Israeli made. Russian air defense complexes worked just fine in hands of well trained and competent crews. Turkish drones made massacre on Arap air defense not because Pantsirs are bad, they are just fine as we see in Hmeimim operated by Russian crews, but because Arap crews are badly trained and incompetent and use them in wrong way.

    Turks used koral and had the advantage there mostly because they faced unprepared SAA. Once they bring real AD forces instead of just 2 pantsirs for all idlib turkish drones were training targets.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:53 pm

    We don't need lessons in civilization, not even from the West.

    Vast majority of minority groups are loyal to Russia and fought side by side with us when the Nazis tried to exterminate Russians, and continue to serve Russia.
    So yes their problem is my problem. Of course not all of them have a problem, most don't care themselves and are mentally just Russians. But still everyone's a Russian citizen and has to have the same rights.

    Well it is an issue everywhere... here in New Zealand the local Maori demand their language is taught in schools... the problem is that some tribes are stronger than others so essentially the Maori language that is taught in New Zealand schools is North Island Maori... if it is worth saving then I think it all needs to be saved, but the obvious problem to start with is that the schools now have to teach Maori... who is going to teach them?

    Not everyone who speaks a language is a good teacher.
    The point if I want to learn South Island Maori I need to organise that myself and then put up with pricks who learned north island maori and think that is the correct maori and the dialect I am using is wrong, but if it is worth keeping the language and culture alive doesn't that apply to all regional types?

    My family tree includes welsh and scottish and irish as well as english branches but I only ever learned english at school... would I be a better New Zealander if I learned those other languages as well. If I wanted to learn them I could but should I expect the New Zealand School system to provide it? There were japanese and chinese and people from other countries around the world in my classes at school... how many languages should a school cater to?

    From a schools perspective do they teach the local languages and Russian only... what if they have a class of children from other areas would they need to get teachers in that speak those languages too... it is a huge can of worms.

    If you make it optional and no one chooses the option what then.... if no one chooses the option for the next 20 years and then you get someone who wants to learn but there are no teachers to teach it...

    Personally I would take it out of schools and build museums and research centres for culture where they could run teaching classes in the language and culture and anyone who wants to go gets funding from the state. It could be like a university type thing that includes research and preservation so information is collected and kept for future generations that might become interested in their past... especially when they lose their connection to the present.

    But Russia is different in that's it's a colonial empire that instead of collapsing started the transition into a socialist state before that, and now we're reverting to the empire model which will inevitably lead to dissent and collapse in the long-term. This trend must be reversed.

    New Zealand is a former colony, and we have no plans to collapse... I don't think of myself as white... I am just a New Zealander, and when I see other New Zealanders I really don't care what their skin colour is or how their last name sounds to me... a New Zealand citizen is a New Zealander as far as I am concerned and I expect no less in return.

    But as you say, the west is not something Russia should emulate... which is why I approve western sanctions on Russia... it is tough love but it also protects you from following a road that leads to a cliff and a fall.

    The situation is not uniform; in some republics everyone learns the native language including Russians, whereas in others they've been removed altogether. This violates the constitution, as there is clearly demand for non-Russian language education

    I would think the situation would be based on the situation wouldn't it? If everyone speaks Russian and few speak the local language then there is less reason to teach the local language. If everyone speaks the local language and Russian then teach everybody both.

    I'm a patriot of Russia and I see where the country is heading, making the same mistakes as the Russian Empire and the later half of the Soviet Union, and all because our dickhead leaders don't want what's best for the country and are afraid of leaving power, as they'll be prosecuted inevitably afterwards.

    Who is going to lead a country when there is a witch hunt at the end to prosecute afterwards?

    I would say of all the politicians around the world the only ones that have stuck to their guns in the interests of their people were Russian.... even China gave in to some sanctions...

    This whole tribalism thing is a result of all this bureaucracy, all these oligarch groups, lobbies, filling people's minds with backwards nonsense to subjugate them to their own business interests. Tribalism will always exist but it's inflamed exactly by people who install themselves in power and then eye a comfy seat for themselves as the heads of some community or independent Bantutistan loyal to NATO and American business interests.

    Isn't having local languages promoting and enabling tribal differences?

    Remove the intellectual vanguardism that modern governments are ruled by, when the people in power decide they know what's best for the population instead of asking the people themselves, presenting their theories and discussing counter-theories.

    That is all well and good, but asking the people is not always the best solution... examples would be the election of Trump, and Brexit.

    The real problem is supply of honest information, and with the BBC and Brexit the BBC was for remain... the fact that the people voted to exit suggests the people don't trust the BBC any more than I do... but there never seemed to be any proper debate and discussion about what it would all mean just each side trying scare tactics to get people to vote their way.

    In the same sense elections in the west have become popularity contests... you can promise anything you like... there is no accountability once you are in...

    And there are usually only 2 candidates to choose from and often one is total shit but you vote for them because the other one is worse.

    The western model is no better even though you are using it now technically.

    The USSR's achievements were not because of the Russian people, or the wider Soviet people. The achievements were because of its social order, its economic order, it's education system. Whatever all that is, is what society of people you get. What I see between then and now is a steady degradation of people in knowledge, critical thinking abilities, and so on. We're becoming serfs.

    Well I thought in the early 1990s that it would be rather better to change from communism to a more socialist structure with elections and then decide which way you want to go... instead you pretty much went through the fire sale slash and burn process that has killed smaller countries like the Ukraine...

    I might move this and other posts to the western decline thread as I would like to read about FPs thoughts on a better society model... certainly the everything is for sale US model doesn't work.

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