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    Russian Science: Discussion Thread

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:43 pm

    But it isn't in development or is it? This seems far more political than it is actual development dude. This thread is specifically to talk about new tech that has been created, not political aspect of it tbh.

    Like, when I post about Elbrus CPU's that are created, or someone posts new CNC machines in development, etc.

    If they have or are working on this new computing structure, good. But the discussion part about GDP % in science (I question this. Usually increasing funds doesnt create much or anything. It is just to syphon more money) isn't.
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    Post  Scorpius Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:51 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:But it isn't in development or is it?  This seems far more political than it is actual development dude.  This thread is specifically to talk about new tech that has been created, not political aspect of it tbh.

    Like, when I post about Elbrus CPU's that are created, or someone posts new CNC machines in development, etc.

    If they have or are working on this new computing structure, good.  But the discussion part about GDP % in science (I question this.  Usually increasing funds doesnt create much or anything.  It is just to syphon more money) isn't.

    * sigh* I have brought here literally what will be the basis for the emergence of innovative technologies in Russia in the next decades. So, this is a meeting of the RAS Presidium, where an important question is raised: Russian scientists have run into the limited performance of the supercomputer infrastructure. According to some parameters, the availability of supercomputer computing power in Russia is two orders of magnitude inferior to the leading developed economies. In this regard, the Presidium of the Russian Academy of Sciences is preparing an appeal to the Russian government on the need for large-scale construction of the Russian infrastructure of supercomputer computing centers in order to catch up with the leading scientific powers in this parameter within ten years. Or, at least, to provide Russian scientists with sufficient computing power for their needs. During the meeting, it was demonstrated by concrete examples that the current needs of Russian scientists have already reached levels of hundreds of teraflops. Overcoming this threshold will allow both basic Russian science and applied science to provide a technological breakthrough in such areas as biomedical, geophysical research and materials science. It was also said that the increase in computing power is a necessary condition for the formation of the "Internet of Things" in Russia and work in the field of artificial intelligence.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:07 pm

    So in other words, it's an schoolo demanding stuff and has nothing to do with actual development of new technologies, right?

    I think this is more appropriate in the politics and economics thread than this thread.

    It would be appropriate if the government passes it, and it's being developed.

    Isn't this also the same school were all the ultra libtards come from?  I mean, all the people in the list I provided about demanding Navalnys release?

    Plus, I need to get actual proof that it's two magnitudes less than other developed states. I guarantee that is a false accusation.

    Maybe @KVS can step in
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    Post  Scorpius Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:52 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Isn't this also the same school were all the ultra libtards come from?  I mean, all the people in the list I provided about demanding Navalnys release?
    You sure you don't confuse the Russian Academy of Sciences and the Academy of natural Sciences?



    miketheterrible wrote:Plus, I need to get actual proof that it's two magnitudes less than other developed states.  I guarantee that is a false accusation.
    This is what the scientists themselves say in their speeches. As an example, it even cites a situation where Russian scientists were forced to invite Germans to perform research - just in order to gain access to their computer centers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOP500
    You can read the data. There are only TWO Russian supercomputers in the list of the top 500 most productive supercomputers in the world. This is a problem, and the Russian Academy of Sciences calls for an immediate solution.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:56 pm

    You don't need to be too 500 either. I work in this field for a major company and our machines are not in the top 500 but guarantee pulls more money than anything in Russia does per year.

    You need to pay attention to the work of universities getting their own mini super computers.

    More is better, I agree. But the news must actually meet credentials and I will request mods to move the news of yours.

    Also note, inviting German scientists is common practice. And also, has little to do with supercomputer needs. Might I add, anecdotal evidence (so a one or two off examples) isn't proof of anything

    Plus, I was right

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7494p750-russian-liberal-opposition#312873

    Many names from Academy of Science on the list.

    So these people are liberal scum who should be ignored.  I mean, look into it, but dont give anything to them to help them.  Give it to the universities who actually do develop things.  I cant think of anything they have done that benefits Russia.  Instead, it seems to be Universities no this Academy, that have done stuff (Sputnik as an example).

    This is them just bitching and complaining about government not doing what they want.  They are a political entity, not a science entity for the most part.  I would wager they should be actually dismantled and assets moved to universities and other organizations that would make better use of equipment and specialists.  Rather than concentrating on politics like the Academy of Science does now.

    Edit:

    I think your post can go here:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t3010p150-russian-science-discussion-thread


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  kvs Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:23 pm

    I will respond to the relatively OT discussion above.   It is true that Russian science is underfunded.  This has forced professors
    at universities to become quasi-businessmen that raise money from other means.   Even it that sounds like the situation in the USA
    where a good chunk of time is spent on writing grant proposals to the NSF (around 30%), it is not since there is no NSF in Russia
    and the scrounging for money is from any source available.   Maybe this has some value to create initiative, but it smells of the 1990s
    monetarist rot that is still afflicting Russia today.

    In terms of supercomputer resources, I fully concur on the value of having localized resources.   Centralized big iron computing centers
    are dinosaur concepts from the 1970s.   Even if the "Top 100" machine looks like the dog's bollocks the number of users is so large
    that you can't get any reasonable turnover on such systems.   Their speed becomes pie in the sky since you spend more time sitting
    in the queue.   I deal with 3D chemical transport models for a living and would love to have access thousands of processing cores.
    But at the end of the day for my development I would prefer to have access to 256 cores that are dedicated to me and my immediate
    coworkers.  

    An aspect that gets overlooked is that the big iron computer centers have overpriced equipment.  The cost per core is not a few
    hundred dollars but a few thousand (I did actual calculations for what is available to me).   Since in the past I have put together
    computing clusters with 128 cores I can say that 256 core clusters today would be even cheaper and have better utility for my
    purposes than reserved space competing with hundreds of other researchers.   Take any Top 100 machine and divide it by the
    number of users to see its real size.   There are exceptions such as the US DARPA machines that are dedicated for nuclear bomb
    simulations and other focused research, they are not the norm for civilian HPC centers.  

    Centralized, overpriced HPC is the brainchild of bureaucrats who can't be bothered to learn the actual needs of researchers.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:32 pm

    I recall various universities in Russia have obtained their own "supercomputers" for their needs. I presume they also rent its power out to companies who need it in order to make additional money.

    But I agree that central super computing is ridiculous and really mostly a dick waving thing more so than practical.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:02 am

    I seem to remember they had developed a few supercomputers and were distributing them to design bureaus and universities, and I would think solid funding to provide more supercomputers... specifically Russian designed and made supercomputers would be about as fundamental to Russian development as making their own machine tooling and work on 3D printers working with metals and plastics...

    In a sense they are force multipliers that allow faster and more efficient use... especially if it is planned to allow speed growth and development paths so that when computing model super computers become relatively obsolete they can be taken apart and redesigned to form newer and more powerful systems... development in scalable systems could be used so that when a university system is going to be replaced perhaps it can be broken into 10 separate systems that can be passed on to secondary schools perhaps or maybe just a computer system for a business that would never need the full power of the original system but would benefit from a part of it.

    Computer systems are so wasteful as they become obsolete so quickly, yet for many mundane jobs they are still perfectly able to run things... especially when they use Russian designed chips that are not of compromised design with backdoors that allow villainy...

    I would have thought one of the functions of Skolkovo would be to create a centre for working on developing new supercomputers that are affordable and cheaper and make access to such power and information more widespread.

    Video game arcades are a thing of the past but imaging a couple of super computers with 32 or 64 or even 128 terminals where you could go and play the most awesome game of laser strike every with high resolution 3D graphics and 3D surround sound in your own room with your own equipment... you could play your own game or play group games of any type you like... the military could use it for simulating combat the police could use it for training too, the local shooting club could use it to test and fire any sort of weapon they want that is totally illegal in physical form, but you don't even have to clean it in this virtual simulation centre.

    You could make it a vehicle only centre where you climb in your own cockpit with LCD monitors with touch screens for instruments of any vehicle you like from submarines to land vehicles to aircraft to space ships... the processing power should allow amazing graphics in real time....
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    Post  kvs Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:43 am

    I think that with photonics it may be possible to move to a non-disposable paradigm and use much lower power to run HPC centers.
    Instead of the communication between the CPU, RAM and peripheral interfaces being physically wired as traces in the motherboard
    the photonic interlink could be a surface plug-in. With photonics there is vastly more bandwidth capacity in any interconnect compared
    to electrical designs. We had the 8 bit bus, then the 16 bit, then 32 bit, etc. and each time you had to throw the old hardware out.
    The bus width in photonics is almost unlimited as in fiber optics cables.

    With fiber optics cables, the hardware that is upgraded is the not the cable itself but the photoemitters and repeaters that can
    superimpose a slew of frequencies all going down the same cable and not interfering with each other. The old days of copper
    wires required a strand for every link which made the cables heavy and obsolete in a relatively short time.

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    Post  Kiko Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:35 pm

    Leaving Europe and the USA: why scientists are returning to Russia en masse
    Marina Kuzina
    18 February 2021

    The specialists who had left the Russian Federation earlier are gradually returning to the country, said Arkady Dvorkovich, chairman of the Skolkovo foundation , in an interview with RIA Novosti . This trend is associated with large targeted programs for the development of a scientific and technical base and an increase in salaries in the field of science, said Artem Narkevich, head of the research laboratory of medical cybernetics and health care management, chairman of the council of young scientists and specialists under the governor of the Krasnoyarsk Territory, in a comment to NN.

    According to Dvorkovich, Russian young scientists from Europe and the United States are mainly returning, and our startups in China and Europe are acquired, and South-East Asia and the Singapore hub are also very active. And when there is a purchase of Russian startups from abroad, Dvorkovich emphasized, everything is done so that the teams themselves remain in Russia and opportunities open up for them both in our country and in foreign markets.

    Dvorkovich named Skoltech University as the largest area that allows attracting foreign or former Russian specialists to our market, where 40% of professors are foreign, and half of all the rest are those who returned to Russia from abroad.

    Indeed, now there are much fewer scientists among scientists who want to leave the country, Artem Narkevich confirmed in a comment to NN.

    "Today, there are much fewer scientists who want to leave the country. This trend exists and is associated with large targeted programs to develop a scientific and technical scientific base and increase salaries in the field of science. I think that gradually the scientific audience is more or less satisfied with the situation. which is developing with science in our country. Now, quite serious money is being poured into the creation of world-class scientific centers in the Russian Federation, with large funding and a significant increase in the material and technical base, with an increase in the salaries of employees of organizations belonging to these centers, "Narkevich stated ...

    The most important thing for a scientist, he added, is the possibility of growth, prospects, the presence of the necessary conditions for conducting scientific research, and these tasks are now being solved. At the same time, Narkevich believes that it would be worth expanding the network of mini-grant funds and competitions in order to support not only scientific mastodons, but also young people.

    “Today, many different mega-grants are allocated, and large research groups can receive serious funds. But when that kind of money is spent on mega-projects, it deprives those who do not have such qualifications and scientific background. I would like our network of mini-grant funds and competitions to expand , in order not only to support scientific mastodons, but also those who are just preparing to become them. I think that this is probably already being discussed in the Ministry of Science and Higher Education, and discussions at the government level, "concluded Narkevich.

    https://yandex.ru/turbo/nation-news.ru/s/599899-uezzhayut-iz-evropy-i-ssha-pochemu-uchenye-massovo-vozvrashayutsya-v-rossiyu?publisher_logo_url=https%3A%2F%2Favatars.mds.yandex.net%2Fget-turbo%2F3007159%2F2a000001727f875e6f107d32e7e9e25ca9dc%2Fsvg&promo=navbar&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

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    Post  kvs Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:22 pm

    I am sure the ones that are keen to leave are liberasts. They are free to move to their imagined utopia and may the door not
    hit them on the way out. The returning ones have learned all about the mythical "rich" west.

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    Karl Haushofer

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    Post  Karl Haushofer Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:30 pm

    More than 70,000 Russian scientists and academics emigrated abroad in 2020, mostly to western countries: https://echo.msk.ru/news/2826150-echo.html?fbclid=IwAR28ylZ-C9a7094ot_G18VHa69xn7y9DdPgiktOr8kqyJ1ZgdVHAYLboN9E

    In comparison only 14.000 scientists and academics emigrated Russia in 2012.

    This is fairly remarkable that this new wave of emigration is happening under Covid-19 circumstances.

    This is far more important and concerning news than anything around that clown Navalny. It is news like this that should make people worried about Russia.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:41 pm

    Now, what exactly are their "professions"?

    Anyone can be called an academic, but if they are useless degrees, then they will look outside where they may find work.

    Also, Russia is one of the most educated per capita. So it makes sense so many specialists exist.

    Statistics can be skewed. Question is the actual professions. That's the real meat.

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    Karl Haushofer

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    Post  Karl Haushofer Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:28 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Now, what exactly are their "professions"?

    Anyone can be called an academic, but if they are useless degrees, then they will look outside where they may find work.

    Also, Russia is one of the most educated per capita. So it makes sense so many specialists exist.

    Statistics can be skewed. Question is the actual professions. That's the real meat.

    The source didn't distinguish the profession but referred them as scientists.

    Anyway, this is not good. 70,000 is a big number even for Russia. Well, I guess Russia can try to replace them by bringing in more Tajiks.
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:33 pm

    Why is it not good?  If these "scientists" are your typical librtard specialists with no actual use in Russia, then them being there is of no benefit to Russia.

    Please, before speaking karl like you normally do, tell us exactly whom they are, and how they are needed and what speciality they possess that is necessary for Russia. Before you go on your chicken Little bullshit.

    Answer these questions for me before you talk more stupid:
    1) what professions is each one?
    2) how are they scientists?
    3) what jobs in Russia require these "scientists"
    4) are they all ethnic Russians or a mix of Russians and Tajiks and what not that were educated in Russia?

    Thanks

    You are after all quoting echo Moscow - foreign funded BS and was called out for fake news multiple of times and were to also lose their journalism license at one point.

    I'm gonna also point out a known fact - Russia has a huge number of people that come to it for higher education. So are these "scientists" included in that demographic?

    Numbers are nice. But it needs to be broken down. Facts are necessary. Seems funny it's a rounded number like 70,000. How come it's not 65,237 specialists? Anyone can throw out numbers but we need facts

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    par far

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    Post  par far Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:04 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:More than 70,000 Russian scientists and academics emigrated abroad in 2020, mostly to western countries: https://echo.msk.ru/news/2826150-echo.html?fbclid=IwAR28ylZ-C9a7094ot_G18VHa69xn7y9DdPgiktOr8kqyJ1ZgdVHAYLboN9E

    In comparison only 14.000 scientists and academics emigrated Russia in 2012.

    This is fairly remarkable that this new wave of emigration is happening under Covid-19 circumstances.

    This is far more important and concerning news than anything around that clown Navalny. It is news like this that should make people worried about Russia.

    It is good that they leave, they can become spies.

    They will come back when they have to write letters on why they are white and have privilege.

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    par far

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    Post  par far Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:05 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Why is it not good?  If these "scientists" are your typical librtard specialists with no actual use in Russia, then them being there is of no benefit to Russia.

    Please, before speaking karl like you normally do, tell us exactly whom they are, and how they are needed and what speciality they possess that is necessary for Russia. Before you go on your chicken Little bullshit.

    Answer these questions for me before you talk more stupid:
    1) what professions is each one?
    2) how are they scientists?
    3) what jobs in Russia require these "scientists"
    4) are they all ethnic Russians or a mix of Russians and Tajiks and what not that were educated in Russia?

    Thanks

    You are after all quoting echo Moscow - foreign funded BS and was called out for fake news multiple of times and were to also lose their journalism license at one point.

    I'm gonna also point out a known fact - Russia has a huge number of people that come to it for higher education.  So are these "scientists" included in that demographic?

    Numbers are nice. But it needs to be broken down. Facts are necessary. Seems funny it's a rounded number like 70,000. How come it's not 65,237 specialists?  Anyone can throw out numbers but we need facts


    That poster does not care about source ratability, this poster just wanted a reaction.

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    Post  lancelot Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:55 pm

    https://tass.com/science/1281573

    "Russia involved in tight competition for scientists, Kremlin says
    The Kremlin spokesman sees absolutely nothing tragic in the migration of Russian scientists"
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    Post  Tingsay Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:47 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Why is it not good?  If these "scientists" are your typical librtard specialists with no actual use in Russia, then them being there is of no benefit to Russia.

    Please, before speaking karl like you normally do, tell us exactly whom they are, and how they are needed and what speciality they possess that is necessary for Russia. Before you go on your chicken Little bullshit.

    Answer these questions for me before you talk more stupid:
    1) what professions is each one?
    2) how are they scientists?
    3) what jobs in Russia require these "scientists"
    4) are they all ethnic Russians or a mix of Russians and Tajiks and what not that were educated in Russia?

    Thanks

    You are after all quoting echo Moscow - foreign funded BS and was called out for fake news multiple of times and were to also lose their journalism license at one point.

    I'm gonna also point out a known fact - Russia has a huge number of people that come to it for higher education.  So are these "scientists" included in that demographic?

    Numbers are nice. But it needs to be broken down. Facts are necessary. Seems funny it's a rounded number like 70,000. How come it's not 65,237 specialists?  Anyone can throw out numbers but we need facts

    I'm betting the majority of those 70k are ages under 30 and naively excited on working on Musk-like futurist game-changing start-up projects like "Hyperloop" or Solar-Paved Roads(lol) only to realize 10 years down the road most of there income is spent on a stupidly high cost of living state like California.

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:57 am

    They'll be back. The West is simply no place to raise a family in.
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:41 pm

    70k scientists?

    During a year when barely anybody could get out of the country?

    Likely story

    As for the article it mentions nothing about the majority of emigration being to Western countries, nor about the 70k figure referring to scientists, but rather 'professionals'

    We don't even have 70k people a year emigrating to the West, never-mind scientists, and never-mind in 2020.

    I suspect it's some statistical manipulation, maybe including students who go abroad to study in foreign universities, or including scientists who died from COVID, or whatever.

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    Post  Karl Haushofer Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:50 pm

    Even Tass is now reporting this same story: https://nauka.tass.ru/nauka/11198355?fbclid=IwAR3XikdQvhkFFJG4NAiR8bCOXTJx8alLnLhaULME1d_MF3epusCSbj1g5dc
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    Post  kvs Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:00 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:Even Tass is now reporting this same story: https://nauka.tass.ru/nauka/11198355?fbclid=IwAR3XikdQvhkFFJG4NAiR8bCOXTJx8alLnLhaULME1d_MF3epusCSbj1g5dc

    So what. Journalists are moron parrots. If you can't be bothered to pay attention to the valid points made upthread, then you can bugger on off to
    a pro-NATzO forum and wank yourself there.

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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:09 pm

    Karl Haushofer wrote:Even Tass is now reporting this same story: https://nauka.tass.ru/nauka/11198355?fbclid=IwAR3XikdQvhkFFJG4NAiR8bCOXTJx8alLnLhaULME1d_MF3epusCSbj1g5dc

    Gonna answer my questions yet?

    As flaming also pointed , statistical error and fudging number data

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:59 am

    flamming_python wrote:70k scientists?

    During a year when barely anybody could get out of the country?

    Likely story

    As for the article it mentions nothing about the majority of emigration being to Western countries, nor about the 70k figure referring to scientists, but rather 'professionals'

    We don't even have 70k people a year emigrating to the West, never-mind scientists, and never-mind in 2020.

    I suspect it's some statistical manipulation, maybe including students who go abroad to study in foreign universities, or including scientists who died from COVID, or whatever.

    Echo of Moscow = Liberasthole turd-pile. Besides not all 'scientists' are of comparable value: political/social 'scientists' are not even comparable in importance when compared to physicists.

    Big_Gazza and miketheterrible like this post


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