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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

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    hoom


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    Post  hoom Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:50 pm

    he splash looks like a something discarded during a launch...

    If it was shrapnel there would be a large area of much smaller splashes... that looks more like something has launched and has dropped a part like a booster fragment or part of a lining that held the missile straight in the tube.

    It might even be unrelated... an anti diver grenade being launched as part of the "test" or something
    Reasonable suggestions thumbsup
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:28 pm

    Neither spare parts nor assistance from Russia.
    The difference is, Russia is keen to overcome those issues, reopen the production, or jump ahead a generation if there is no point in respiration a dead elephant.
    The time worked well for Russia, and bad for Ukraine.

    The thing is that Kievs industry had most of its customers in Russia, but the reverse is not true, so when Russia is cut off from crucial parts then to meet the orders of the Russian military and for export orders it makes sense to develop their own alternative in the short term and a new generation replacement going forward.

    For Kiev, there is no domestic market for their products and only a small export potential which is not big enough to pay for upgrades and maintenance of existing facilities and resources let alone upgrades to make it competitive.

    The EU and US are not interested in funding the Ukrainian MIC... they have their own MICs to fund and support... in fact gifting the Ukraine western weapons and systems is actually making them dependent on the western MIC for the future.

    The Ukraine is being asset stripped and that includes all their soviet era MIC of any worth and when they are done there will be nothing left of value... not just because it is easy money, but also because it eliminates a potential rival... the EU and US don't want Antonov to get back on its feet and start making planes... An-70s would cut deep into the market for A-400Ms and late model C-130s, and for many jobs would cut in to C-17 sales too... it would cost western countries billions in orders so there is no chance of it happening.

    Reasonable suggestions

    Thanks for posting the video...

    When I first looked at it I was disappointed because the missile was the full width of the launch tube and thinking it was Redut and an S-350 missile, I thought there is no way they could fit the big missiles under those hatches... but looking at the control surfaces I realised that is Shtil-1, or vertically fired naval BUK, and then I just looked at it a couple of times thinking how pretty it looked and how clean the cold launch was... no mess, no loose pieces, no obvious gas like you would see with say an air gun blowing the missile out of the tube...

    Haven't seen a land based new BUK-M3 launch yet so this is the closest I have seen so far... thanks again for posting. Smile

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:38 am

    ALAMO wrote:
    kvs wrote:

    Also, I am sure that there are still a few engines around left over from the "bad old days".   But I have seen reports, which I can't find at the moment,
    where the refurbished tanks totally failed after leaving the "refurbishment line".


    They have been using post-soviet scrapyards for 3 decades now.
    Ukrainian armor depots were hit, burn and driven to death all over Africa.
    Assuming, that what is left, is not the best they had there, but the other Laughing
    When they were hit back with "sanctions", it turned out that they have faced just the same problems as Russia.
    Neither spare parts nor assistance from Russia.
    The difference is, Russia is keen to overcome those issues, reopen the production, or jump ahead a generation if there is no point in respiration a dead elephant.  
    The time worked well for Russia, and bad for Ukraine.

    Well, I hope they can manage to produce a few engines and gearboxes for India, otherwise Russia will not be able to deliver the ships and being payed.

    Of course, it would be interesting to know if it was possible to resuscitate Zorya in case of separation of Nikolaev from country 404, as a secondary production site (and repair facility) for marine and energy gas turbines and gearboxes (Maybe as Saturn subsidiary, even if Saturn does not produces naval gearboxes (for Russia that is Zvezda in Saint Petersburg).

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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:31 am

    Russia now makes both engines so it is in their interests to be able to make the gearboxes to allow them to be used in various arrangements on different types of vessels...
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    Post  hoom Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:17 am

    thinking how pretty it looked and how clean the cold launch was... no mess, no loose pieces, no obvious gas like you would see with say an air gun blowing the missile out of the tube...
    Its an interesting difference between Shtil-1 & 9M96:
    Shtil-1 comes out clean without much smoke & does a quick main-engine vector onto course while still going slow while the forces are low.
    9M96 comes out covered in black soot & uses side thrust from forward/mid (not sure exactly where?) to tip it over & stabilise onto course before the main engine fires.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:24 am

    Very nice piccie of the business end of one of the 11356s. Not sure which one, but does it really matter? Very Happy

    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich - Page 37 Jrt8ff10

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:14 am

    9M96 comes out covered in black soot & uses side thrust from forward/mid (not sure exactly where?) to tip it over & stabilise onto course before the main engine fires

    Looks better when there is no smoke, but essentially the cold launch in itself is the key as most solid rocket motors explode on or just after launch so having it outside of the launcher when you fire up the solid rocket motor is a very good thing.

    The 9M96 has rings of solid rocket thrusters around the nose, just like the TOR does... it is used at launch to point the missile in the direction it needs to turn to head towards its target so the main engine doesn't waste thrust and energy accelerating the missile in a direction it should not be going, so it means more efficient use of solid fuel in the main rocket motor, but in both cases the side thruster rockets will also be used in the terminal phase of the intercept to shift the missile closer to the target in the last fraction of a second before impact just before the warhead is detonated... it might only shift the missile a metre or two closer but that will improve the effect of the warhead on target and might result in direct contact.

    Usually thrusters on both sides of the missile is used to first push the nose into the direction of the target and then the opposite side to stop the turn as the main motor accelerates the missile towards the target that it should now be pointing above... so that as the missile accelerates it does not need to waste energy turning left or right or raising the angle to gain altitude...
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    Post  franco Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:21 am

    The last frigate of project 11356 will be sold abroad

    This was announced by the General Director of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov, writes RIA Novosti . Initially, six Project 11356 frigates for the Black Sea Fleet were going to be built at the Yantar plant in Kaliningrad. But their construction had to be suspended due to broken ties with Ukraine, where the power plants came from.

    The enterprise received installations for only three frigates - "Admiral Grigorovich", "Admiral Essen" and "Admiral Makarov", all of them serve in the Black Sea Fleet.

    Then it became known that two of the three remaining ships would be built for India. They will be handed over in the next two years. The Indian shipyard Goa Shipyard Limited will build two more similar frigates.

    Now the fate of the sixth ship of this line has become known.

    NOTE: article doesn't say to whom however one would expect India.

    https://rg-ru.translate.goog/2021/09/24/reg-szfo/poslednij-fregat-proekta-11356-prodadut-za-rubezh.html?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=ajax,elem

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    Post  Isos Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:19 am

    That's funny how indians love to complain about russian stuff and talk about how happy they are with israeli stuff yet they buy Grigorovitch frigates while they have the indian build Shivalik class which is a bigger Grigorovitch having the same weapons  but with Barak 1 missiles and a israeli radar in addition.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:15 am

    Isos wrote:That's funny how indians love to complain about russian stuff and talk about how happy they are with israeli stuff yet they buy Grigorovitch frigates while they have the indian build Shivalik class which is a bigger Grigorovitch having the same weapons  but with Barak 1 missiles and a israeli radar in addition.

    Looked up Shivalik class

    So they took Grigorevich, stretched it like crazy, doubled the displacement but pretty much kept the same engine power?

    And people wonder why they came back for more Grigorevich frigates... No

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    Post  Isos Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:00 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:That's funny how indians love to complain about russian stuff and talk about how happy they are with israeli stuff yet they buy Grigorovitch frigates while they have the indian build Shivalik class which is a bigger Grigorovitch having the same weapons  but with Barak 1 missiles and a israeli radar in addition.

    Looked up Shivalik class

    So they took Grigorevich, stretched it like crazy, doubled the displacement but pretty much kept the same engine power?

    And people wonder why they came back for more Grigorevich frigates... No


    If it was an engine issue they could have switched for a new german one easily. It is locally made with the same weapons as Grigorovitch and more israeli weapons and more radar so it is theorically a better ship than Grigorovitch, so a better choice and Grigorovitch should have never been build.

    IMO it's the whole ship design that sucks. Which isn't surprising it's indian made.

    I wonder if their Kolkota destroyers are also as shitty. Thry may order Gorshkov-M in the future.
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    Post  hoom Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:19 pm

    They have/had production issues & the shipyard had a major incident a while back.
    Russia is probably offering them at a very low price to get rid of them as well.
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    Post  Isos Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:27 pm

    hoom wrote:They have/had production issues & the shipyard had a major incident a while back.
    Russia is probably offering them at a very low price to get rid of them as well.

    India is producing two Grigorovitch in its own shipyards so not really.
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    Post  Kiko Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:46 pm

    Russia's import dependence on Ukraine sold to India, 29/09/2021.

    Now we can state with a sense of confidence that Russia no longer has dependence on Ukraine. She (addiction) is sold to India. As they say - out of sight, out of mind.

    What is this joyful message about? On the fate of Project 11356R frigates of the "Admiral Essen" class.

    As you know, Project 11356 is a very good ship. Just the ones that our the fleet clearly not enough for operations in the distant sea and ocean zones. It was originally planned to build six such ships. Special prospects have arisen in connection with the possibility of equipping ships with Caliber missiles.

    The frigates were laid down and built since December 2010. Three ships ("Admiral Grigorovich", "Admiral Essen" and "Admiral Makarov") became part of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, significantly strengthening their presence in the ship group of, frankly, frankly old Soviet ships.

    But with the rest, everything was not according to the plot.

    The problem is that engines for frigates were developed and built by the Ukrainian concern Zorya-Mashproekt. And before the start of the Russian-Ukrainian crisis, the company managed to deliver to Russia three sets of gas turbine units, which are now used by the Black Sea frigates.

    But the three remaining ships, alas, were too strong to complete.

    Import substitution, which "confidently walked" in various industries of our country, broke both legs on marine engines.

    Back in 2015, the then Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, Viktor Chirkov, said that due to the supply of engines by Ukraine, the Russian fleet would abandon these ships if it would not be possible to manufacture gas turbines at Russian enterprises.

    The task to develop an engine to replace the Ukrainian one was given by NPO Saturn in 2016. Or, as an option, to redesign the ships for the existing power plants produced by NPO Saturn. However, the Rybinsk enterprise could not solve the problems that arose with the manufacture of individual units and mechanisms, and therefore the ships were mothballed "until better times."

    As a result, two ships, "Admiral Istomin" and "Admiral Kornilov", are being completed for the Indian fleet, which will have no problems getting the "original" Ukrainian engines. The corresponding agreement between "Zorya-Mashproekt" and the Ministry of Defense of India was signed and the cash desk of the Ukrainian manufacturer was replenished with dollars of Indian origin.

    The relations between India and Ukraine in this regard are very fruitful: on September 12, 2019, SE NPKG Zorya-Mashproekt signed contracts with the Indian Ministry of Defense for the supply of gas turbine equipment. The range of supplies includes gas turbine engines, gearboxes and spare parts kits for ships of the Indian Navy.

    In general, more than 150 Ukrainian-made gas turbine engines are still in operation on Indian ships. Not surprisingly, there is an agreement between the company and the Indian Ministry of Defense for the overhaul and maintenance of existing engines.

    Moreover, in 2019, the Indian enterprise Goa Shipyard Limited began construction of new Talvar-class frigates, which were previously built in Russia at the Yantar enterprise in Kaliningrad. For these ships, Zorya-Mashproekt will supply the M7N.1E propulsion system consisting of two DS71 cruise turbines and two DT59 afterburner turbines.

    And what about us?

    Our general director of USC Alexei Rakhmanov said that the last, sixth "Petrel" will also be sold. Without specifying who, but it is clear that it is India. If we compare the number of GGTU-M7N1 ordered by India to the Ukrainians, then everything is clear and understandable.

    “Admiral Butakov” changed its name to “Tushil”, “Admiral Istomin” received the name “Tamala”. "Admiral Kornilov" will also be picked up Indian, no doubt.

    On this, we can say that everything. V stories frigates of the project 11356R put a bullet.

    In general, the very history of building frigates of two types (pr. 22350 and 11356R) at the same time is a very peculiar situation. In general, this practice is not used in the world, except perhaps from very poor countries that acquire ships on the secondary market. Others prefer to avoid ships of different types, since this significantly increases the cost of operation, maintenance and repair of ships.

    Project 11356R frigates are nothing more than a fully developed family of patrol ships of projects 1135 and 1135M "Burevestnik" and 11351 "Nereus", its deep modernization. Quite a lot of these ships have been built since 1968, about four dozen, for the needs of both the Navy and the Coast Guard of the Border Guard Service.

    Some, by the way, serve to this day. "Ladny" and "Pytlivy" as part of the Black Sea Fleet, "Dzerzhinsky" and "Orel" as part of the FSB Border Service in the Far East.

    Well, beauty and pride, the flagship of the Ukrainian fleet, "Hetman Sagaidachny" - is also one of these projects.

    It was believed that Project 11356R frigates would be built only in the interests of the Black Sea Fleet, and all six ships would make up a strike fist in the Black Sea. And the more "die-hard" ships of Project 22350 will serve in the Pacific and Northern fleets.

    But on this, obviously, the history of Project 11356 frigates ends. And this is, in principle, good. Project 11356 is clearly inferior to the more expensive, but better equipped project 22350.

    But the main thing is that there is an engine for the 22350 project. Diesel-gas turbine unit М55Р. The first brainchild of the UEC "Saturn" under the program to replace Ukrainian engines.

    So, on the one hand, three ships will leave to serve in the interests of India, on the other, they will be replaced by frigates of project 22350.

    This is definitely good. And it is somehow inconvenient to have two frigates, and there will be exactly half the problems with engines.

    It's really nice to know that the situation has changed. Dependence on Ukraine in the person of three frigates of project 11356R was sold to India, the Indians order engines from the Ukrainians, in general, everyone is happy.

    But in general, we are not interested in Indo-Ukrainian relations, the main thing is that we have a frigate with an engine, which even has washers made in Russia. And you can forget about the Nikolaev units, like about a nightmare.

    Of course, it would be nice to get rid of such a partner in the supply of diesel engines as China, but there is nothing to be done about this. We'll have to buy, although I would very much like to have my own.

    The problem of "stuck" ships of Project 11356 was resolved Even if not as it would be ideally. Yes, the Black Sea Fleet will never, apparently, receive its three Project 11356R ships. But on the other hand, they will not be stuck in heaps of dead metal at shipbuilding plants and will not be scrapped.

    And the situation itself, when there is a ship, but there are no engines for it, is flawed nonsense. I want to forget that we were in this position, and forget as soon as possible.

    It is a pity that while the Russian shipbuilding industry cannot become fully autonomous and build ships of any class completely independently. But the fact that we are already in a position to build a completely Russian frigate is already encouraging. Because it’s not far from a destroyer or cruiser. Although we need so many new frigates that it is too early to think about cruisers and aircraft carriers.

    In general, we say goodbye to the Burevestniki finally and irrevocably and we will wait for new ships of Project 22350. Completely Russian.

    AUTHOR: Roman Skomorokhov for Topwar.ru

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    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:04 am

    Hopefully Frigate production in Russia will expand to the point where the Ukrainian powered ships can all be sold off to India and can be replaced with Russian ships with Russian power plants... but then selling India some Russian ships with Russian power plants would be good too.

    Maybe after they finish these two new helicopter carriers India might be interested and they could perhaps make some extra for them...
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    Post  RTN Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:55 am

    Isos wrote: I wonder if their Kolkota destroyers are also as shitty. Thry may order Gorshkov-M in the future.
    Of course it is. Just check its Armaments. 16 Brahmos, 32 Barak 8. It's a joke.

    Chinese destroyers will have it for breakfast and lunch. God forbid, hope it doesn't cross the path of a U.S destroyer.

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    Post  Mir Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:46 am

    RTN wrote:
    Of course it is. Just check its Armaments. 16 Brahmos, 32 Barak 8. It's a joke.

    Chinese destroyers will have it for breakfast and lunch. God forbid, hope it doesn't cross the path of a U.S destroyer.

    How many super dooper Harpoons are on the Burke's these days? Laughing

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    Post  LMFS Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:37 pm

    Mir wrote:How many super dooper Harpoons are on the Burke's these days? Laughing

    Don't you forget they pretend their SM-6 are supersonic anti-ship missiles Laughing
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    Post  Isos Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:14 pm

    US ships are all dedicated to protect the carriers. Nothing more.

    The anti ship capabilities come from Hornets and submarines. A hornet with 4 harpoons will have a range of 1000km if you take into account harpoon range so they aren't bad suited. And with the LRASM and its >500km range it's even better for them, unless they loose the carriers.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:04 am

    Amusing that an Indian ship with 16 supersonic anti ship missiles and 32 air defence SAMS is no good... British ships just put into service have 8 Harpoons and 48 SAMs... are 16 extra SAMs and 8 less and much less capable anti ship missiles really that much better?

    Being supersonic anti ship missiles I would suggest each Brahmos is worth 3-4 Harpoons in terms of lethality which suggests it is not that badly armed depending on what they intend for it to do.

    It is certainly not state of the art super ship material, but equally it is hardly unarmed.

    The anti ship capabilities come from Hornets and submarines. A hornet with 4 harpoons will have a range of 1000km if you take into account harpoon range so they aren't bad suited. And with the LRASM and its >500km range it's even better for them, unless they loose the carriers.

    Their obvious problem is that to get close enough to launch a harpoon brings them within range if enemy air defences and the risk of being shot down... and Harpoons and LRASMs are easier to shoot down than the faster missiles Indian and Chinese and Russian vessels will be carrying... but I am not saying any ones ships are rubbish.

    But it is easy to send any ship into a situation where it is over its head...
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    Post  ALAMO Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:12 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Mir wrote:How many super dooper Harpoons are on the Burke's these days? Laughing

    Don't you forget they pretend their SM-6 are supersonic anti-ship missiles Laughing

    That would make them some 80 years behind the Soviets I guess, as Volna was accepted in the early 60s, and doing just the same.

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    Post  RTN Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:45 am

    Mir wrote:How many super dooper Harpoons are on the Burke's these days? Laughing

    The Arleigh Burke's weapons package is unmatched in terms of quantity (not to mention its EW capabilities). No Asian or European navy has developed destroyers with such an awesome weapons package.

    GarryB wrote:Amusing that an Indian ship with 16 supersonic anti ship missiles and 32 air defence SAMS is no good... British ships just put into service have 8 Harpoons and 48 SAMs... are 16 extra SAMs and 8 less and much less capable anti ship missiles really that much better?

    Indian surface combatants will have to fight the PLA-Navy not the Brits. So comparing the firepower of Indian ships with those of the Brits doesn't help matter. Chinese destroyers carry far more cruise missiles and SAMs than Indian ships.

    You also left out the part that Papa Dragon made about how under powered the engines are on Indian ships. So I'll reproduce his quote here again.
    PapaDragon wrote:Looked up Shivalik class

    So they took Grigorevich, stretched it like crazy, doubled the displacement but pretty much kept the same engine power?
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    Post  Mir Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:04 am

    RTN wrote:
    The Arleigh Burke's weapons package is unmatched in terms of quantity (not to mention its EW capabilities). No Asian or European navy has developed destroyers with such an awesome weapons package.

    Well I have news for you!
    China has the Type 055 destroyer which is very similar to the Burke's BUT it has more VL cells than the latest Flight IIA - 112 vs 96. Harpoons are only fitted on the Flight 1&II's and the Tomahawks are land attack only - it seems. But even if they can be used against ships - they are slow and very vulnerable to modern air defenses.

    So you think you're going to use your SAM pew pews in anti-shipping mode - well I think once the Chinese missiles start to rain down on your Burke you will need them for air defense rather!

    The Chinese destroyer seems to be much better armed to take on the US ships with their YJ-18 [Klub] missiles. These missiles would be quite a challenge to defend against whilst the Harpoon is obsolete by a huge margin. China also have quite a number of Type 52D destroyers armed with the same YJ-18. Once all your SAM's are depleted you will have to count on a SINGLE Phalanx system to defend your ship! Good luck with that!

    Your one and only ECM system on board US Navy ships did not do too well against an ancient Su-24 a couple of years ago - if I remember correctly.
    Well it was certainly not capable of performing effective ECCM of any kind.

    PS - There are also rumours that the type055 destroyers will be able to launch anti-ship ballistic missiles as well as hypersonic glide vehicles. You should also keep one eye on the new Brahmos [Oniks] developments.


    Last edited by Mir on Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:44 am; edited 2 times in total

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:32 am

    Amusing that an Indian ship with 16 supersonic anti ship missiles and 32 air defence SAMS is no good... British ships just put into service have 8 Harpoons and 48 SAMs... are 16 extra SAMs and 8 less and much less capable anti ship missiles really that much better?

    It's not about the weaponery only. Engineering means a lot.

    Their obvious problem is that to get close enough to launch a harpoon brings them within range if enemy air defences and the risk of being shot down... and Harpoons and LRASMs are easier to shoot down than the faster missiles Indian and Chinese and Russian vessels will be carrying... but I am not saying any ones ships are rubbish.

    Not a problem at all since harpoon exceed the range of the AD systems. Only Slava and kirov have AD that could pose a threat but even the  it would be very hard to hit a hornet at long range because once he launches its harpoon it can go at low altitudes.

    However harpoons chances to go through are very small unless they manage to attack with plenty of them at once.
    Tolstoy
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    Post  Tolstoy Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:05 am

    Isos wrote:It's not about the weaponery only. Engineering means a lot.
    Why?

    And if what you are saying is true then how is engineering going to compensate for lack of enough firepower on U.K's ships?

    Isos wrote:Not a problem at all since harpoon exceed the range of the AD systems. Only Slava and kirov have AD that could pose a threat but even the  it would be very hard to hit a hornet at long range because once he launches its harpoon it can go at low altitudes.
    F-18 Super Hornets will be intercepted by Mig 29K and Su-33 before they can launch the Harpoon.

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