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    Post  RTN Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:11 am

    GarryB wrote:As you can see... from the front... one gun, two UKSK launchers then 8 Uran launch tubes where the old Metel launchers were, so essentially 16 cruise missile launch tube
    The two UKSK launchers are for firing SAMs. They won't fire any cruise missiles. How did you arrive at this figure of 16 cruise missiles that Udaloy can carry?

    GarryB wrote:Yep, slow flying easy to shoot down missiles... that need to be used in enormous numbers to have a chance of being effective.
    Applies to Russian subsonic missiles as well.
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    Post  ALAMO Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:21 am

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    Post  Isos Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:25 am

    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:As you can see... from the front... one gun, two UKSK launchers then 8 Uran launch tubes where the old Metel launchers were, so essentially 16 cruise missile launch tube
    The two UKSK launchers are for firing SAMs. They won't fire any cruise missiles. How did you arrive at this figure of 16 cruise missiles that Udaloy can carry?

    GarryB wrote:Yep, slow flying easy to shoot down missiles... that need to be used in enormous numbers to have a chance of being effective.
    Applies to Russian subsonic missiles as well.

    UKSK fire only cruise missiles, for now.

    Russia will use Tzirkon, kinzhal and other hypersonic missiles against any nato ship. Kh-35, if used, will be used against lightly armed ships or support ships or to confuse nato AD by launching a salvo of kh-35 then a few Tzirkon so that they come at the same time on the target. It's very hard to deal with low altitudes attack and in the same time high altitude ones.

    IIRC aegis can't track low flying object if it is used in ABM role which would be the case against Kinzhal so a kinzhal/kh-35 attack is fatal to it
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    Post  RTN Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:25 pm

    Isos wrote:UKSK fire only cruise missiles, for now.
    Similar launchers are used for Poliment-Redut SAMs.

    Isos wrote: It's very hard to deal with low altitudes attack and in the same time high altitude ones.  
    That's what the rolling air frame missiles are for.

    Re hypersonic cruise missiles, more and more U.S surface combatants are being armed with Directed Energy Weapon systems to deal with these type of threats. So far eight destroyers have been armed with DEWs. They are still being tested but then so is Tzirkon.
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    Post  Isos Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:41 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Isos wrote:UKSK fire only cruise missiles, for now.
    Similar launchers are used for Poliment-Redut SAMs.

    Isos wrote: It's very hard to deal with low altitudes attack and in the same time high altitude ones.  
    That's what the rolling air frame missiles are for.

    Re hypersonic cruise missiles, more and more U.S surface combatants are being armed with Directed Energy Weapon systems to deal with these type of threats. So far eight destroyers have been armed with DEWs. They are still being tested but then so is Tzirkon.

    Uksk has nothing in common with redut. One fires 9m long cruise missiles, the other 9m96, 9m100 family of AD missiles.

    Hypersonic missiles resist friction with the air at mach 10 and above which is very high temperature. Lasers work few km away which is traveled in few seconds by the hypersonic missiles and they need few seconds to burn a plastic drone. No time and no power to destroy them with lasers.

    Those lasers on US destroyers are there to counter small drones. It wouldn't work even against a subsonic missiles.

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    Post  Arrow Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:00 pm

    Ironically, only Russia currently has a hypersonic weapon and is the only one with a laser which it can try to destroy hypersonic missiles. I am talking about the Peresvet laser.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:29 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Hypersonic missiles resist friction with the air at mach 10 and above which is very high temperature. Lasers work few km away which is traveled in few seconds by the hypersonic missiles and they need few seconds to burn a plastic drone. No time and no power to destroy them with lasers.

    Those lasers on US destroyers are there to counter small drones. It wouldn't work even against a subsonic missiles.

    well depends on power. Ship turbines can provide enough energy for shooting But I dont think its gonna be enough for many incoming missiles.
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    Post  Isos Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:27 pm

    well depends on power. Ship turbines can provide enough energy  for shooting But I dont think its gonna be enough for many incoming missiles.

    The further is the target the less energy it will have because it dissipates over the distance.

    Moving at a speed of mach 10 which is 3.5km/s means that the missile will go through the engagement zone of the laser in matter of 4-5 seconds which is a 14-17.5km engagement range. During those few seconds you need to track the missile, start your laser, go through the frontal section of the missile that can sustain air friction at mach 10 so can sustain the burns of a laser, then go through the inside which is probably covered by anti-laser materials, then burn the warhead to make it explode.

    And you would need to repeat that for all the missiles in the salvo.

    Not realistic.

    Ships have very low chances to escape a salvo of subsonic missiles let alone hypersonic ones. 2 Iraqi exocet went through US frigate USS Stark without even being detected by its radars.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:02 am

    The two UKSK launchers are for firing SAMs. They won't fire any cruise missiles. How did you arrive at this figure of 16 cruise missiles that Udaloy can carry?

    Look at the photo I posted... UKSK launchers can't launch SAMs, only the UKSK-M can do that and AFAIK it has not been fitted to any ships yet and if they did it would need all new radar arrays for the new missiles it could carry.

    UKSK-M launchers can carry Redut missiles and also Naval BUK missiles as well, but would need AESA arrays for search and guidance roles which the upgraded Udaloy seems to be lacking.

    UKSK and UKSK-M can however carry all the Kalibr and related missiles like the subsonic 3,000km range land attack Kalibr and the subsonic anti ship version with an unknown range, and the subsonic anti ship missile with the mach 3 supersonic rocket terminal attack stage, and of course the Onyx supersonic anti ship and land attack missile and will be compatible with the mach 9 Zircon anti ship and land attack missile... plus of course it has the capacity to carry the Ovtet anti sub ballistic rocket delivering a torpedo to target.

    8 x 2 UKSK launch tubes can carry cruise missiles and the Uran Kh-35U quad launchers where the old Udaloy carried Metel anti sub missiles is another 8 missiles that have anti ship and land attack capacity out to 260km... so that would potentially be 24 missiles actually.

    Applies to Russian subsonic missiles as well.

    Absolutely... the obvious problem of course is that not all ships and land targets are well protected... especially non Russian targets, so the requirement to penetrate enemy defences is much lower most of the time for the Russians so they can keep some simple and cheap missiles for the job while their better missiles can break defences and make later follow up shots with cheaper less capable missiles effective where they might not have been effective if fired first.

    Similar launchers are used for Poliment-Redut SAMs.

    Upgraded UKSK-M launchers are used for Poliment Redut.... but Poliment is not a missile... it is a radar array... which the upgraded Udaloys lack suggesting they are not going to use UKSK-Ms this time around.

    Later on they might decide to standardise on UKSK-Ms so everything gets it, but until then it is not likely.

    BTW if it is then each of those 16 tubes can carry four 9M96 missiles with a range of 60km or 150km, or each tube could carry 16 9M100 short range air defence CIWS missiles... in addition to all the strike cruise missiles and anti sub ballistic missile I mentioned above... which would be even better and also the new Naval BUK missile can be carried and launched... one per tube because it is a bigger missile... but also not only that instead of four 9M96 missiles per tube for 16 tubes they should also be able to carry one S-400 SAM per tube in the form of a 400km or 250km range missile... with serious ABM capacity.

    Hypersonic missiles resist friction with the air at mach 10 and above which is very high temperature. Lasers work few km away which is traveled in few seconds by the hypersonic missiles and they need few seconds to burn a plastic drone. No time and no power to destroy them with lasers.

    Most of those DEW are useless beyond about 2km range, and considering Zircon will be moving at just over 3km per second I don't rate their chances really...

    well depends on power. Ship turbines can provide enough energy for shooting But I dont think its gonna be enough for many incoming missiles.

    The Zumwalt class ships were supposed to have a new revolutionary power system that allowed high energy weapons... but it does not work...

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